15317What constitutes lawful creation or recreation of a moral person in law?
- Dec 3, 2006Dear brethren,
There has been some question within the covenanter movement that once
a lawful church court is dissolved, it may be required that it
properly recreate, or create, itself by newly defining itself
formerally under a new Constitution in Presbyterian government. This
would insure that a lawful notice of dissolution would be later
satisfied with a lawful, written form of constitutional creation.
However, this possible requirement, in my opinion, would suggest that
a Constitution may be the only lawful means to create a moral person
in the eyes of Scripture.
Presently, I'm researching Scripture and Presbyterian history to
determine if this litmus test is required to be considered a lawful
and faithful means to create a moral person, and although not
complete, I would like to share with you that which I have also been
researching in how the common law of England differs from that of
constitutional law of America.
Obviously, we all know that England has no formal, written consitution
and that America has her written declaration of independence and her
subsequent written consitution of the united states. Thus, I thought
I would look toward the dissolution of Parliment in England to see how
they reinstituted themselves after dissolution.
Although my research is not complete, as I'm going to study the House
of Lords, I thought I would share the following with you regarding the
record of the House of Commons. I'm also provided the links if you
care to do further research yourselves.
'House of Commons Journal Volume 2: 05 May 1640', /Journal of the
House of Commons: volume 2: 1640-1643/ (1802), p. 19.
Die Martis, 5; Maii, 16; Regni Regis Car.
THE Gentleman Usher of the Upper House came from his Majesty, to
require the Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses, of this House, to come
up presently to his Majesty: And there, by his Majesty's Command, my
Lord Keeper dissolved this present Parliament.
============================= (It is recreated or created here on
November 3, 1640 - Walt)
'House of Commons Journal Volume 2: 03 November 1640', /Journal of the
House of Commons: volume 2: 1640-1643/ (1802), p. 20.
Die Martis, 3 Novembris, 1640.
ABOUT Nine of Clock this Forenoon, the Earl Marshal of /England/, Lord
High Steward of his Majesty's most Honourable Household, came into the
outward Room of the Commons House, accompanied with Mr. Treasurer of
the King's Houshold, Sir /Thomas Roe/, Knight, One of his Majesty's
most Honourable Privy Council, and others: Where, when the Cryer of
the Chancery had first made Proclamation, and the Clerk of the Crown
in Chancery had called over the Names of all such Knights, Citizens,
Burgesses, and Barons of the Cinque Ports, as were then returned, his
Lordship first swore about threescore, and then made his Deputation
under his Hand and Seal; which was openly read by the Clerk of the
Parliament attending upon the Commons; and by the which he did
constitute those of the Privy Council, and other Members of this
House, authorizing them, or any Six, Five, Four, or more of them, in
his Place and Stead, to minister the Oaths of Supremacy and Allegiance
to all such Members of this House, as had not yet received them,
during this present Parliament: Who then departed to wait upon the
King; who, about One of Clock, came in his Barge from /Whitehall/ to
/Westminster/ Bridge, where the Lords met him; And from thence, in
great Solemnity, he came, accompanied with many of his Nobles, through
/Westminster/ Hall, and the Court of Requests, to the Abbey, where he
heard a Sermon preached by the Bishop of /Bristol/; and then came to
the Lords House: Where his Majesty briefly, and the Lord Keeper more
at large, delivered the Causes of summoning this Parliament; such
Members of the House of Commons as pleased, being there present.
Mr. Lentall chosen Speaker.
The House of Commons being returned from the Lords and set; after a
little Pause, Mr. Treasurer broke the Silence, putting them in mind of
the Custom of choosing a Speaker, nominating Mr. /Lentall/; and with
one [Consent], was cried to the Chair. He rose and desired to be
excused, for the Weightiness of the Affairs, for his own sake, knowing
his own Weaknesses, or at least, for their own sakes. His Excuse did
more raise the Cry of all Men to have him to the Chair; and was at
length led to the Chair by Mr. Treasurer and Mr. Secretary /Windebanke:/
Before he took the Chair, he once again desired the House to excuse him.
The House adjourns itself till /Thursday/ at Two of Clock /post
Meridiem/, then to meet to present Mr. Speaker.
============================= (next meeting in the record-Walt)
Jovis, 5 Novembris, 16 Caroli Regis, 1640. Post Meridiem.
The King attended.
THIS Afternoon, about Two of Clock, his Majesty came by Water, and
landed at Parliament Stairs: About half an Hour after, the Gentleman
Usher of the Lords House came, and told the Speaker Elect, that his
Majesty was come to the Upper House, and expected him immediately:
Thereupon Mr. Speaker, accompanied with Mr. Treasurer of the King's
Houshold, and such others of the House, as pleased-
Mr. Speaker returned from the Lords House, with the Mace carried
before him: And after Three Obeisances solemnly made, and he in his
Chair, and the House settled; after a little Pause, was, after the
usual Manner, read, /pro forma/; a Bill, /viz/.
1^a /vice lecta/, An Act to prevent Inconveniencies happening by
To meet To-morrow Morning at Eight of Clock.
======================== (Now they are running full steam ahead-Walt)
Die Veneris, 6 Novembris, 16 Regni Regis Caroli, 1640.
THERE was a Motion made for a Fast: It was thereupon
/Resolved/, upon the Question, That the Desire of this House is, that
there should be a Fast.
/Resolved/, upon the Question, That there shall be a Message sent to
the Lords, to desire them to join with this House to make a Request to
his Majesty for a Fast.
Sir /Tho. Roe/, Sir /Walther Erle/, Sir /Miles Fleetewood/, Sir /Henry
Mildmay/, Sir /Tho. Barrington/, Mr. /Pimme/;
This Committee is to meet this Afternoon, in the Treasury-chamber, to
view the Orders of the last Parliament, touching a Fast; and
accordingly to prepare a Report to the House.
Committee of Privileges.
Sir /Guy Palmes/, Sir /Tho. Barrington/, Sir /Fra. Barnham/, Sir /Jo.
Hotham/, Sir /Jo. Trevor/, Mr. /Hatcher/, Mr. /H. Bellassis/, Sir
/Gilb. Gerrard/, Mr. /Mallory/, Sir /Fr. Seymour/, Mr. /Kirton/, Sir
/Hugh Cholmeley/, Sir /Rob. Harley/, Mr. /Selden/, Sir /Jo.
Culpepper/, Sir /Jo. Strangewayes/, [Sir /Wm/.] /Litton/, [Mr. /St./]
/Johns/, [Sir] /Christopher Hatton/, Sir /Oliver Luke/, Mr. Solicitor,
Mr. /Ellis/, Mr. /Hollis/, Mr. /Whistler/, Mr. /Maynard/, Mr. /Charles
Price/, Mr. /Grantham/, Mr. /Bagshaw/, Mr. /Broxam/, Mr. /White/, Sir
/Tho. Witherington/, Sir /Wm. Witherington/, Mr. /Witakers/, Ld.
/Digby/, Serjeant /Eures/, Mr. /Christ. Lewknour/, Sir /Wm. Masham/,
Sir /Edward Deering/, Sir /Peter Heyman/, Sir /Edward Hales/, Sir
/Henry Herbert/, Mr. /Morgan/, Lord /Russell/, Mr. /Glinne/, Mr.
/Hampden/, Sir /Roger North/, Sir /Tho. Walsingham/, Sir /Miles
Fleetewood/, Sir /Anthony Irby/, Ld. /Fairefax/, Mr. /Owfeild/, Mr.
/Duke/, Mr. /Perpoint/, Sir /Rich. Onslow/, Mr. /Strangwayes/, Sir
/Henry Mildmay/, Sir /Edmund Mountfort/, Mr. /Jo. Bellassis/, Sir
/Walther Earle/, Mr. /Pimme/, Sir /Philip Stapleton/, Ld. /Dungaroon/,
Sir /Christ. Wray/, Sir /Rich. Vivian/, Mr. /Denzell Hollis/, Sir /Jo.
Wray/, Mr. /Cage/, Sir /Edw. Aiskew/, Mr. /Upton/, Mr. /Palmer/, Sir
/Arthur Ingram/, Mr. /Grimston/, Mr. /King/, Mr. /Wm. Sands/, Mr.
/Perd/, Ld. /Andever/, Sir /Ro. Crane/, Mr. /Rous/, Sir /Tho. Bowyer/,
Sir /Jo. Jennings/, Mr. /Valentine/, Sir /Hen. Crooke/, Sir /Wm.
Carnaby/, Sir /Arthur Haslerigg/, Sir /Sidney Mountague/, Mr. /Fines/,
Mr. /Henry Cooke/, Ld. /Buckhurst/;
This Committee is appointed to examine and consider all Questions, to
grow and arise this Parliament, about Elections, Returns, or other
Privileges of the House; and to report their Opinions and Proceedings
therein to the House: And have Power to send for Records, Witnesses,
and Parties, and to hear Counsel: And are, for this Service, to meet
this Afternoon, and afterwards every /Saturday, Tuesday/, and
/Thursday/, in the Star chamber, at Two of Clock after Dinner.
/Ordered/, That those Petitions, this Day delivered in the House,
concerning Elections, shall be bundled up, and delivered to the
Committee for Privileges; and they to consider, which of them to fall
in hand with first.
It was moved, That where Some are returned by the Sheriff, or such
other Officer, that in Law has Power to return, Others by private
Hands, That those returned by the Sheriff [should sit, till their]
Election be quasht by the House: But nothing was ordered [upon it].
It was likewise moved, That the Committee for Privileges might have
Power to determine all Cases, that appear clear, upon the bare View of
the Indenture: And the Order of this House, the last Parliament was
read: But the House resolved nothing upon it.
/Ordered/, A Warrant to issue, under Mr. Speaker's Hand, to the Clerk
of the Crown, for a new Writ to be sent to the Sheriff of
/Cambridgeshire/, for Election of the Knights of that Shire; because
no County Day did intervene, between the Receipt of the Writ, and the
Day of Appearance in the Parliament.
/Ordered/, That all such as will question any Elections, now presently
returned, shall do the same, by Petition, within Fourteen Days; and
those that shall question any Elections, to be hereafter returned,
shall likewise do the same, within Fourteen Days after their Return.
Members doubly returned.
Upon the Debate of granting Time to Those that are doubly returned,
for making their Choice for which Place they will serve; and, upon
Diversity of Opinions, some being for /Monday/ next, and some for
longer Time: it was put to the Question, whether the Question should
be first made for /Monday/ next, or for longer Time: It was
/Resolved/, upon the Question, That the Question for /Monday/ should
first be made.
/Resolved/, upon the Question, That all such as are doubly returned,
shall make their Choice, for which Place they will serve, on /Monday/
next, or before.
/Ordered/, That the Case of the Knights for /Buckinghamshire/ shall be
excepted out of this general Order, "That such as are doubly returned
shall make their Choice, for which Place to serve, on /Monday/ next,
Mr. /Serle/, an Inhabitant of /Taunton/, a Town in /Somersetshire/,
lately much visited with the Sickness, returned a Burgess of this
House.-After much Debate, whether he should presently-admitted into
the House, or no: It was at length
/Ordered/, That he shall be admitted into the House presently.
A Committee of the whole House, for Religion, to meet every /Monday/
at Two of Clock in the Afternoon, in the House.
[A Committee of] the whole House, for Grievances, to meet every
[/Wednesday/ at] Two of Clock in the Afternoon, in the House.
A Committee of the whole House, for Courts of Justice, to meet every
/Friday/ at Two of Clock in the Afternoon, in the House.
These Committees have Power to send for Writings, Books, Records,
Papers, Officers, Parties, and Witnesses; and to assign and hear
Counsel; and are to report their Opinions and Proceedings to the House.
It was moved, That these Grand Committees might be ordered to have
Power to make Sub-committees:
But it was /Declared/ by the House, that That Power was incident upto
them, without any further Order.
/Ordered/, That it should be referred to the Committee for Privileges,
to consider of the Claims and Interests of all such Boroughs as
pretend to have any Title to return any Members to sit in this House.
Committee for Trade.
/Ordered/, A Committe of the whole House, for Trade, meet in the House
every /Tuesday/ at Two of Clock in the Afternoon; and to have the like
Power as the other Grand Committees of the whole House have.
Upon the Question, whether the /Irish/ Affairs should be referred to a
Committee of the whole House, or to a select Committee,
The House was divided; and the Yeas went forth, and the Noes stayed in:
Tellers for the Yea, Sir /Edward Bainton/, Sir /Rich.Luson/.
Tellers for the Noe, Sir /Jo. Clotworthy/, Sir /H. Mildmay/.
With the Yeas - - 165
With the Notes - - 152
/Resolved/, upon the Question, That the /Irish/ Affairs shall be
referred to a Committee of the whole House, to meet To-morrow in the
Afternoon at Two of Clock, in the House; and afterwards[every]
/Thursday/, at the same Hour and Place; and this Committee is to have
[the like Power as] the other Grand Committees of the whole House have.
To meet To-morrow [at Eight of Clock.]