12590RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
- Apr 3, 2005Daniel,To elaborate further:2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:To summarize the chronology of events,
Historically, we see that:
- There will be an apostasy from the faith, from which the man of sin will rise.
- This man of sin will oppose and exalt himself above God, sitting in the Temple of God (the Church), shewing himself to be God.
- The Thessalonians knew what was withholding the rise of this man of sin, because Paul had told them orally.
- Once the thing that was withholding was removed, the wicked man of sin would be revealed.
- This man of sin will be consumed with the Spirit of Christ's mouth, and will be destroyed at his coming.
"And the beast [a.k.a. man of sin, a.k.a. little horn, a.k.a. the Antichrist] was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."See also Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's image, wherein ONE represents MANY.Keith----- Original Message -----From: keith dotzlerSent: 4/3/2005 12:32:09 AMSubject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dyingDaniel,There are problems with your line of reasoning. For example:When you say,"This is clearly refering [sic] to one point in time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there were some resurection [sic] of them at that time) will fall into distruction [sic]..."...are you willing to follow that thought to its logical conclusion, and tell us the forty-two months that the beast/man of sin/antichrist/little horn was prophesied to wear out the saints and trample their blood under foot is, therefore, restricted to a literal 42 months, being the last 3 1/2 years before Christ's return?As I said in my first post in this thread, the OFFICE cannot be destroyed without destroying the office-HOLDERS. The men are cast into hell, not the office, which has no soul.Keith----- Original Message -----From: DanielSent: 4/2/2005 10:04:46 PMSubject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
- It was the Church at Rome that apostatized from Biblical doctrine, allowing doctrines of demons to infect it, leading to the ascendancy of its Bishops to a place of tyrannical power.
- It was the Bishop of Rome who exalted himself above God, sitting in the visible Church (the Temple of God), claiming to be Christ's VICAR; nay, God himself (NOTE: the prefix anti means "in the place of," or "to oppose;" hence, the Bishop of Rome, by claiming to be Christ's "VICAR" (which also means "in the place of"), is readily identifying himself as the ANTI-Christ!).
- It was the Roman Empire that restrained the rise of the Bishop of Rome (Pope), because the two could not rule from Rome simultaneously. Once Constantine moved the seat of the Empire to Byzantium (creating Constantinople) in 333, and after persecuting Christians was outlawed via the Edict of Milan in 313, and after the Bishop of Rome was "granted" sovereignty over the Latin and Italian territories via the fictitious "Donation" of Constantine, and once the Roman Empire was divided into 10 kingdoms (ten toes) via Barbarian invasions in the late 5th century, the Bishop's rise to all-powerful supremacy became inevitable.
- The saints throughout history recognized the mutation that occurred after the Empire was moved East, wherein the once humble pastors of the Church at Rome morphed into power-hungry, tyrannical, idolatrous, murderous Popes. The early Church Fathers also knew that the man of sin would rise once the Empire fell, which is why they prayed for its continued existence.
- Therefore, (A) as the "let" was the Roman Empire that was "taken out of the way" in 333 A.D.; and (B) as Christians for centuries have recognized the man of sin to be the Bishops who ascended the Roman throne after the Empire's removal; and (C) as the mark of the beast, (D) the worshipping of the beast's image, (E) the murdering of the saints have all been going on for centuries; the consuming and destroying, then, with which the Beast and false prophet are met at Christ's coming, cannot refer to just ONE Pope and ONE false prophet, nor to their soul-less "offices," but to the entire succession of men.
Don't the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the office of
the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the Antichrist
inasmuch as he bears the office of pope?
If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the Antichrist then
each of them would have to have individually experienced God's
judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that he will
be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the
brightness of His coming. This is clearly refering to one point in
time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there
were some resurection of them at that time) will fall into
distruction before the worldwide millenial gospel peace which is
before Christ returns.
It seems to me that he could reject his office. And this wouldn't
mean that God's decree is failing since it is the papacy which is the
Antichrist. It would be sinful on the other hand to pray for the
Papacy (the office) to turn into a calvinistic presbytery which
submits to scripture alone because the Anchrist which is predicted to
fall is the Papacy and so it will never be righteous. And while we
can pray for individual Roman Catholics to repent we cannot pray for
the Catholic Church to repent since it is the Great Whore.
I am not denying the fact that all of the popes are evil and in there
popish state would end up in hell (unless they repent and die before
they had the chance to reject the office). I am also not denying the
fact that if the Pope did commit the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost (and
we can't put that past him) that he shouldn't be prayed for. I don't
know enough about this but could it be argued that the process of
becoming a pope involves an action which would be blasphemy of the
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