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11306[Covenanted Reformation] Re: Of the Papacy and their merry men (Spurgeon)

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  • covie1646
    Oct 3, 2004
      Barry,

      I was not the one who mention Dr. White's "poison tongue". I was
      only asking if it was the Dr. James white of Alpha Omega Ministries.
      I only learned of it yesterday and was shocked to hear of it as I
      regarded him as an excellent apologist. The recent posts has led me
      to reconsider my regard for him.

      About the Civil War, Lincoln was not as good a man as Lee nor as good
      as Luther. Lincoln spoke with two tongues regarding racial equality
      and state rights. He issued the Emanicpation Proclamation yet stated
      in the same time frame, "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have
      been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political
      equality of the white and black races [the crowd applauds] – that I
      am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of
      negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry
      with white people, and I will say in addition to this that there is a
      physical difference between the black and white races which I believe
      will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social
      and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while
      they do remain together there must be the position of superior and
      inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the
      superior position assigned to the white race." (C. Woodward, The
      Strange Career of Jim Crow) Lincoln ordered aggression against the
      CSA to "save the Union" yet in the same time frame stated his support
      for states' rights to secede or declare independence:

      "The expression of that principle [political freedom], in our
      Declaration of Independence was most happy and fortunate. Without
      this, as well as with it, we could have declared our independence of
      Great Britain; but without it, we could not, I think, have secured
      our free government, and consequent prosperity." (Machan, "Lincoln,
      Secession, and Slavery)

      "Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the
      right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a
      new one that suits them better." (Ibid.)

      "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the
      institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I
      have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so."

      Talk about being seduced by language through the belief that Lincoln
      is as good as Lee. Further, so what about their conscience? It is
      the Lord, not conscience, that determines goodness and right "My
      conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the
      Lord who judges me." 1.Cor. 4:4

      I am not saying that Lincoln is not good. All that I am saying is
      that Lincoln is not as good as Lee.

      Regarding Luther, he was indeed brash and loud and could have been
      more self-controlled. However, Christ and His Gospel was at stake,
      and strong words were necessary to contend for the Faith against the
      rank abuses of Rome. Also, strong words tend to offend people, not
      seduce them. And, yes, one can read the motivations and state of
      people to certain degree for "by their fruit you shall know
      them", "faith without works is dead", etc. although not to a perfect
      degree. Our beliefs do not determine what it Truth. Scripture
      does. So, what of those who believed Antichrist and his anti-church
      was the true church?

      Whit


      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Barry Ferguson
      <gogon789@y...> wrote:
      > Whit:
      >
      >
      > You mentioned in a previous post about James White's poison
      tongue assassinating the character of various opponents - he's not
      too popular with the "Catholic Answers" people as well.
      >
      > But Luther cuts a pretty wide swath in here below in terms
      of character assassination. Can he read into the motivations of
      all these people who stayed loyal to what they believed from
      childhood was the true church?
      >
      > Those who study the American Civil War understand that Robert
      E Lee was as good a man as Abraham Lincoln, and those on both sides
      were obeying their consciences.
      >
      > We can't presume that those who took a stand on the other
      side of the Reformation had bad or sinister motives. Luther's
      beloved confessor stayed behind with the traditional church and
      advised Luther to moderate his tone. This is the man Luther says
      saved his soul from complete ruin.
      >
      > Luther lashed out left and right - I can pull up the same
      sort of quote from Luther toward the vileness of people who do not
      believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist - men like
      Zwingli. I can also pull up the same sort of quote from Luther
      toward the vileness of people who do not believe in infant baptism -
      men like Spurgeon.
      >
      > Those who love language can be seduced by Luther even when
      he is rabid - especially if you are in total agreement with his
      fundamental theological insight.
      >
      >
      > This kind of speech allowed an incredibly gifted man to
      ventilate his spleen and to take out his frustrations - it also
      provided some relief from the enormous load of responsibility bearing
      down upon him, and from the relentless torment he had to overcome.
      >
      > It is not sacred scripture, however, and it does not provide
      an accurate reading into the hearts of those who disagreed with him -
      and all those who stood on the other side.
      >
      > To read into the hearts of your opponents in the name of God
      is to set oneself up as God in the temple of God.
      >
      >
      > Luther's good will spread all the way to England, and
      received the following adulation from an otherwise restrained Thomas
      More:
      >
      > "Since Luther has written that he already has a prior right
      to bespatter and besmirch the royal crown with shit, we will not have
      the posterior right to proclaim the beshitted tongue of this
      practicioner of posterioristics most fit to lick with his anterior
      the very posterior of a pissing she-mule until he shall have learned
      more correctly to infer posterior conclusions from prior premises."
      >
      >
      > A highly legal argument in very arcane, technical language.
      >
      > More remained loyal to that bespattered crown even while
      taking his own lonely stand of conscience - at the cost of more than
      his posterior.
      >
      >
      > Luther judged More's friend Erasmus in the same damning way
      he judged all his opponents.
      >
      > Erasmus died with peace in his heart and praise on his lips
      to Jesus Christ.
      >
      >
      >
      > Barry Ferguson
      >
      >
      >
      > covie1646 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
      > Although Luther wrote that, Spurgeon's "Geese in the Hoods" was
      > brought to my mind. Has anyone read that book and have an opinion
      > about it?
      >
      > Whit
      >
      >
      > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Braniac"
      > <brainiac@c...> wrote:
      > > On account of this judgment fear and trembling might well seize
      > our great Spiritual prelates, as they call themselves, the popes,
      > cardinals, bishops, canons, priests and the hole diabolical rabble
      > of the anti-Christian crowd at Rome, and everywhere, in their
      > monasteries and brothels, if they were not altogether hardened and
      > deliberately given to Satan body and soul. They think and act as
      > though they were especially appointed to snatch to themselves
      > everything that belongs to the poor church, and in their own
      > wantonness to consume, spend, waste, squander, in dissipation,
      > gambling and debauchery, in the most shameful and scandalous
      manner,
      > whatever has been given for the maintenance of students, schools
      and
      > the poor people. They mock God and man, 2 Pet. 2, 13; yeah, they
      > publicly murder innocent, pious people.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yea, woe another and eternal woe, to them and to all who side
      with
      > them. For it had been better for them, had they never been born,
      > as Christ says of Judas. Therefore they ought rather to wish that
      > their mother had drowned them in their first bath, nor that they
      had
      > never come forth from the womb, than that one of them should have
      > become pope or cardinal or a popish priest. For they are nothing
      > else than merely desperate and select ones, not highway robbers,
      but
      > public country thieves, who take, not the goods of the mighty and
      the
      > powerful that really have something, but of the poor and wretched,
      of
      > the parish churches, schools and hospitals, whose morsels are
      > snatched from their teeth, and whose drink is torn from their
      mouths,
      > so that they are unable to maintain life.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Therefore, let every man beware of the Pope, the bishops, and the
      > priesthood, as he would beware of those have already been condemned
      > alive to the abyss of perdition. Truly Paul did not prophesy in
      > vain, 2 Tim 3, 1 that in the last days perilous times shall come.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > From a sermon by Martin Luther from his third Postil. Pages 387-
      389
      >
      >
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