11306[Covenanted Reformation] Re: Of the Papacy and their merry men (Spurgeon)
- Oct 3, 2004Barry,
I was not the one who mention Dr. White's "poison tongue". I was
only asking if it was the Dr. James white of Alpha Omega Ministries.
I only learned of it yesterday and was shocked to hear of it as I
regarded him as an excellent apologist. The recent posts has led me
to reconsider my regard for him.
About the Civil War, Lincoln was not as good a man as Lee nor as good
as Luther. Lincoln spoke with two tongues regarding racial equality
and state rights. He issued the Emanicpation Proclamation yet stated
in the same time frame, "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have
been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political
equality of the white and black races [the crowd applauds] that I
am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of
negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry
with white people, and I will say in addition to this that there is a
physical difference between the black and white races which I believe
will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social
and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while
they do remain together there must be the position of superior and
inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the
superior position assigned to the white race." (C. Woodward, The
Strange Career of Jim Crow) Lincoln ordered aggression against the
CSA to "save the Union" yet in the same time frame stated his support
for states' rights to secede or declare independence:
"The expression of that principle [political freedom], in our
Declaration of Independence was most happy and fortunate. Without
this, as well as with it, we could have declared our independence of
Great Britain; but without it, we could not, I think, have secured
our free government, and consequent prosperity." (Machan, "Lincoln,
Secession, and Slavery)
"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the
right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a
new one that suits them better." (Ibid.)
"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the
institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I
have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so."
Talk about being seduced by language through the belief that Lincoln
is as good as Lee. Further, so what about their conscience? It is
the Lord, not conscience, that determines goodness and right "My
conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the
Lord who judges me." 1.Cor. 4:4
I am not saying that Lincoln is not good. All that I am saying is
that Lincoln is not as good as Lee.
Regarding Luther, he was indeed brash and loud and could have been
more self-controlled. However, Christ and His Gospel was at stake,
and strong words were necessary to contend for the Faith against the
rank abuses of Rome. Also, strong words tend to offend people, not
seduce them. And, yes, one can read the motivations and state of
people to certain degree for "by their fruit you shall know
them", "faith without works is dead", etc. although not to a perfect
degree. Our beliefs do not determine what it Truth. Scripture
does. So, what of those who believed Antichrist and his anti-church
was the true church?
--- In email@example.com, Barry Ferguson
> Whit:tongue assassinating the character of various opponents - he's not
> You mentioned in a previous post about James White's poison
too popular with the "Catholic Answers" people as well.
>of character assassination. Can he read into the motivations of
> But Luther cuts a pretty wide swath in here below in terms
all these people who stayed loyal to what they believed from
childhood was the true church?
>E Lee was as good a man as Abraham Lincoln, and those on both sides
> Those who study the American Civil War understand that Robert
were obeying their consciences.
>side of the Reformation had bad or sinister motives. Luther's
> We can't presume that those who took a stand on the other
beloved confessor stayed behind with the traditional church and
advised Luther to moderate his tone. This is the man Luther says
saved his soul from complete ruin.
>sort of quote from Luther toward the vileness of people who do not
> Luther lashed out left and right - I can pull up the same
believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist - men like
Zwingli. I can also pull up the same sort of quote from Luther
toward the vileness of people who do not believe in infant baptism -
men like Spurgeon.
>he is rabid - especially if you are in total agreement with his
> Those who love language can be seduced by Luther even when
fundamental theological insight.
>ventilate his spleen and to take out his frustrations - it also
> This kind of speech allowed an incredibly gifted man to
provided some relief from the enormous load of responsibility bearing
down upon him, and from the relentless torment he had to overcome.
>an accurate reading into the hearts of those who disagreed with him -
> It is not sacred scripture, however, and it does not provide
and all those who stood on the other side.
>is to set oneself up as God in the temple of God.
> To read into the hearts of your opponents in the name of God
>received the following adulation from an otherwise restrained Thomas
> Luther's good will spread all the way to England, and
>to bespatter and besmirch the royal crown with shit, we will not have
> "Since Luther has written that he already has a prior right
the posterior right to proclaim the beshitted tongue of this
practicioner of posterioristics most fit to lick with his anterior
the very posterior of a pissing she-mule until he shall have learned
more correctly to infer posterior conclusions from prior premises."
>taking his own lonely stand of conscience - at the cost of more than
> A highly legal argument in very arcane, technical language.
> More remained loyal to that bespattered crown even while
>he judged all his opponents.
> Luther judged More's friend Erasmus in the same damning way
>to Jesus Christ.
> Erasmus died with peace in his heart and praise on his lips
> Barry Ferguson
> covie1646 <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
> Although Luther wrote that, Spurgeon's "Geese in the Hoods" was
> brought to my mind. Has anyone read that book and have an opinion
> about it?
> --- In email@example.com, "Braniac"
> <brainiac@c...> wrote:
> > On account of this judgment fear and trembling might well seize
> our great Spiritual prelates, as they call themselves, the popes,
> cardinals, bishops, canons, priests and the hole diabolical rabble
> of the anti-Christian crowd at Rome, and everywhere, in their
> monasteries and brothels, if they were not altogether hardened and
> deliberately given to Satan body and soul. They think and act as
> though they were especially appointed to snatch to themselves
> everything that belongs to the poor church, and in their own
> wantonness to consume, spend, waste, squander, in dissipation,
> gambling and debauchery, in the most shameful and scandalous
> whatever has been given for the maintenance of students, schoolsand
> the poor people. They mock God and man, 2 Pet. 2, 13; yeah, theywith
> publicly murder innocent, pious people.
> > Yea, woe another and eternal woe, to them and to all who side
> them. For it had been better for them, had they never been born,had
> as Christ says of Judas. Therefore they ought rather to wish that
> their mother had drowned them in their first bath, nor that they
> never come forth from the womb, than that one of them should havebut
> become pope or cardinal or a popish priest. For they are nothing
> else than merely desperate and select ones, not highway robbers,
> public country thieves, who take, not the goods of the mighty andthe
> powerful that really have something, but of the poor and wretched,of
> the parish churches, schools and hospitals, whose morsels aremouths,
> snatched from their teeth, and whose drink is torn from their
> so that they are unable to maintain life.389
> > Therefore, let every man beware of the Pope, the bishops, and the
> priesthood, as he would beware of those have already been condemned
> alive to the abyss of perdition. Truly Paul did not prophesy in
> vain, 2 Tim 3, 1 that in the last days perilous times shall come.
> > From a sermon by Martin Luther from his third Postil. Pages 387-
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