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Nice hex keypad

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  • Bee Dee
    This is a nice keypad at a good price. The numbers go from top to bottom instead of bottom to top. Maybe the key caps can be switched around. It connects
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 1, 2012
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      This is a nice keypad at a good price.
      The numbers go from top to bottom instead of bottom to top.
      Maybe the key caps can be switched around.
      It connects column to row rather than individual switches, so that
      would require some specialized decoding. (probably a scanning decode)

      http://www.mpja.com/16-Button-XY-Keypad/productinfo/18317+SW/
    • Bee Dee
      Here is a page with links to some electronics and surplus companies, some of which I d never seen. Some have 1802-based stuff.
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 1, 2012
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        Here is a page with links to some electronics and surplus companies,
        some of which I'd never seen. Some have 1802-based stuff.

        http://www.arrickrobotics.com/surplus.html
      • Mark Graybill
        ... If this keypad is the one I think it is, it s a sealed unit. When prototyping I make copious use of this keypad: http://www.bgmicro.com/ACS1048.aspx It can
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 2, 2012
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          On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 10:56 AM, Bee Dee <bd@...> wrote:
          >
          > This is a nice keypad at a good price.
          > The numbers go from top to bottom instead of bottom to top.
          > Maybe the key caps can be switched around.
          > It connects column to row rather than individual switches, so that
          > would require some specialized decoding. (probably a scanning decode)
          >
          > http://www.mpja.com/16-Button-XY-Keypad/productinfo/18317+SW/
          >

          If this keypad is the one I think it is, it's a sealed unit.

          When prototyping I make copious use of this keypad:
          http://www.bgmicro.com/ACS1048.aspx

          It can be used as a 4x4, 4x5, or 5x5 very easily. It mates to a 74C923
          very nicely.
          The vendor's current image is in black and white. You can see a full
          color image in one of my projects here:
          http://saundby.com/electronics/8085/

          For full-travel keys in finished projects I currently use keypads from
          SMC Electronics:
          http://www.smcelectronics.com/swkey.htm

          I've got one in the present version of my 8085 trainer which I haven't
          posted a pic of, yet--I've _really_ got to update my web site for it,
          it's horribly behind the times. I use dry-transfer lettering to mark
          the keycaps in some projects, in others i put computer-printed legends
          under the clear keycaps.

          On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Bee Dee <bd@...> wrote:
          >
          > Here is a page with links to some electronics and surplus companies,
          > some of which I'd never seen. Some have 1802-based stuff.
          >
          > http://www.arrickrobotics.com/surplus.html
          >

          I've done business with most of these places. Here's my list of
          surplus suppliers:
          http://delicious.com/saundby/electronics+surplus

          The more, the merrier, when it comes to parts sources. :)

          -Mark G., AG6HU
        • Bee Dee
          Thanks. It s too bad the real keyboard is so expensive. Although it is nice, especially with the DIY key tops. And it looks like the 74C923 will work with the
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 2, 2012
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            Thanks. It's too bad the real keyboard is so expensive. Although it is
            nice, especially with the DIY key tops.
            And it looks like the 74C923 will work with the other keyboard for decoding.
          • Lee Hart
            ... Real keyboard for what computer? Quest Elf, Netronics Elf, RCA VIP? The easiest way to get a vintage keyboard might be to pick up some old computer on
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 2, 2012
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              On 1/2/2012 2:13 PM, Bee Dee wrote:
              > Thanks. It's too bad the real keyboard is so expensive. Although it is
              > nice, especially with the DIY key tops.
              > And it looks like the 74C923 will work with the other keyboard for decoding.

              "Real" keyboard for what computer? Quest Elf, Netronics Elf, RCA VIP?

              The easiest way to get a vintage keyboard might be to pick up some old
              computer on eBay or some surplus dealer. Sometimes even old PC keyboards
              have keys that can be separated and rewired.

              Another approach: I laid out a PCB and built a Sinclair ZX80 clone. It
              has a 40-key alphanumeric keyboard. The traces on the PCB form the
              switches. They get shorted when you press a key by a metalized overlay
              (available for about $40). The PCB also has pads so you can solder on
              0.5" square tactile switches (about $0.50/switch).

              We could make a PCB for the Elf that would give you a full ASCII
              keyboard for about the same cost as a hex keypad with Netronics/Quest
              Elf switches. Probably include some simple scan logic (Don Lancaster's
              CMOS Cookbook has some good circuits) so it has a serial or parallel output.

              Or... I've been thinking that a fun project might be a *real* palmtop
              computer in an Altoids tin. :-) Use a little cellphone-surplus LCD
              display in the lid, and a ZX80-like ASCII keyboard in the main part of
              the box, and an 1802 with ElfOS. Closed, it looks like an Altoids tin.
              Open it, and it's a tiny computer!

              --
              *BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
              -- Mahatma Gandhi
              --
              Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net
            • whd_whd_whd
              I meant real as in using real keyboard-style keys (or close relatives) with keycaps and switches as opposed to membrane-style (or capacitive or thumb or
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 2, 2012
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                I meant "real" as in using real keyboard-style keys (or close relatives)
                with keycaps and switches as opposed to membrane-style (or capacitive
                or thumb or chiclet, etc.)

                I haven't seen any cell phone thumb keyboards for sale anywhere, in
                surplus or otherwise. Maybe they're out there. The older phones might
                be big enough inside to put an 1802 system. Or you might have to
                extend them a little; make them thicker. Or they could be a "terminal".

                Soon, if not now, because cell phones are so disposable, it might be
                possible to use something like those keyboards for your 'palmtop'
                Altoids computer. I guess the displays, too, although they might be
                pretty complex to interface to.

                If my Blackberry ever dies, or I upgrade to an Android or something,
                it would be a good candidate for that. It would be cool to re-use the
                display, but, if not, another one could be put installed in its place.
                It would probably need to be thickened, though.

                If I can ever get my act together, I will work on these projects.
              • Lee Hart
                ... Ah, I see. And I agree; if one is actually going to type on a keyboard for long periods, then a proper keycap and good feel are essential. My favorite
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 2, 2012
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                  whd_whd_whd wrote:
                  > I meant "real" as in using real keyboard-style keys (or close relatives)
                  > with keycaps and switches as opposed to membrane-style (or capacitive
                  > or thumb or chiclet, etc.)

                  Ah, I see. And I agree; if one is actually going to type on a keyboard
                  for long periods, then a "proper" keycap and good feel are essential. My
                  favorite keyboards are now very old (early IBM PCs and certain other
                  computers).

                  > I haven't seen any cell phone thumb keyboards for sale anywhere, in
                  > surplus or otherwise.

                  Heck; they're so cheap that you might as well buy the phone new and use
                  it. I use Tracfones instead of buying anything that requires a monthly
                  fee. The cheapest Tracfones are under $10 (with charger and handset, and
                  no monthly contract)! I just buy minutes a few times a year.

                  But you're right. Figuring out how the keyboard and display actually
                  work will be the challenge.

                  Of course, if one could figure out how to reprogram the microcomputer
                  that's in there, it could emulate an entire Elf. But the only phones
                  that people seem to have bothered to "hack" so they can program it are
                  the expensive ones.

                  What I was thinking of instead is to *buy* a cellphone-size LCD display
                  that is documented, and use that. They're only $20 or so.

                  For the keyboard, do something like what I did on the Sinclair ZX80.
                  Make the keyboard with small tactile switches. It would be undersized,
                  but not as bad as most cellphones are.
                  --
                  Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong reasons.
                  -- R. Buckminster Fuller
                  --
                  Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net
                • Mark Graybill
                  There s room in the tin for a small straight key for Morse Code input. Or an automatic keyer (no logic required!) if you want to get fancy. ;)
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 2, 2012
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                    There's room in the tin for a small straight key for Morse Code input. Or an automatic keyer (no logic required!) if you want to get fancy. ;)

                    http://www.wrsmithtelegraphkeys.com/telegraph.htm


                    Mark G.
                    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    http://saundby.com/
                    Electronics, Books, Video Games, etc.

                    On Jan 2, 2012, at 10:25 PM, Lee Hart wrote:

                    > whd_whd_whd wrote:
                    > > I meant "real" as in using real keyboard-style keys (or close relatives)
                    > > with keycaps and switches as opposed to membrane-style (or capacitive
                    > > or thumb or chiclet, etc.)
                    >
                    > Ah, I see. And I agree; if one is actually going to type on a keyboard
                    > for long periods, then a "proper" keycap and good feel are essential. My
                    > favorite keyboards are now very old (early IBM PCs and certain other
                    > computers).
                    >
                    > > I haven't seen any cell phone thumb keyboards for sale anywhere, in
                    > > surplus or otherwise.
                    >
                    > Heck; they're so cheap that you might as well buy the phone new and use
                    > it. I use Tracfones instead of buying anything that requires a monthly
                    > fee. The cheapest Tracfones are under $10 (with charger and handset, and
                    > no monthly contract)! I just buy minutes a few times a year.
                    >
                    > But you're right. Figuring out how the keyboard and display actually
                    > work will be the challenge.
                    >
                    > Of course, if one could figure out how to reprogram the microcomputer
                    > that's in there, it could emulate an entire Elf. But the only phones
                    > that people seem to have bothered to "hack" so they can program it are
                    > the expensive ones.
                    >
                    > What I was thinking of instead is to *buy* a cellphone-size LCD display
                    > that is documented, and use that. They're only $20 or so.
                    >
                    > For the keyboard, do something like what I did on the Sinclair ZX80.
                    > Make the keyboard with small tactile switches. It would be undersized,
                    > but not as bad as most cellphones are.
                    > --
                    > Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong reasons.
                    > -- R. Buckminster Fuller
                    > --
                    > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Bee Dee
                    That s cool. (I always wanted to do fabrication -like stuff, but the closest I ever really got was carpentry) I never thought about that, but it would be a
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 3, 2012
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                      That's cool. (I always wanted to do "fabrication"-like stuff, but the
                      closest I ever really got was carpentry)

                      I never thought about that, but it would be a viable input device for
                      those who can key well. It's been so many years I don't even remember
                      the codes anymore, although I was never very fast. I learned it back
                      when I was going to get my amateur radio license and it was still a
                      requirement to be able to send and receive some minimal wpm or whatever
                      it was. But I never followed through.

                      As usual, "kids these days don't know how easy they have it..."
                    • Lee Hart
                      ... I imagine that this is written on a cave wall somewhere, shortly after man invented writing. :-) -- Children are so very difficult to raise because they
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 3, 2012
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                        On 1/3/2012 2:50 AM, Bee Dee wrote:
                        > I never thought about that, but it would be a viable input device for
                        > those who can key well. It's been so many years I don't even remember
                        > the codes anymore, although I was never very fast. I learned it back
                        > when I was going to get my amateur radio license and it was still a
                        > requirement to be able to send and receive some minimal wpm or whatever
                        > it was. But I never followed through.

                        > As usual, "kids these days don't know how easy they have it..."

                        I imagine that this is written on a cave wall somewhere, shortly after
                        man invented writing. :-)

                        --
                        Children are so very difficult to raise because they are *different*
                        from their parents. They are not a simple artifact of heredity, but a
                        product of their learning, environment, and experience. -- Carl Sagan
                        --
                        Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net
                      • Lee Hart
                        ... I like that idea! I was a ham, and still know the Morse code (although it is no longer necessary to get a ham license). Actually, I think a keyer ( bug )
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 3, 2012
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                          Mark Graybill wrote:
                          > There's room in the tin for a small straight key for Morse Code input. Or an automatic keyer (no logic required!) if you want to get fancy. ;)

                          I like that idea! I was a ham, and still know the Morse code (although
                          it is no longer necessary to get a ham license).

                          Actually, I think a keyer ("bug") would be even better. For non-hams,
                          this is a *pair* of switches, with two paddles. Pushing the paddles
                          right produces a string of dots; pushing the paddles left produces a
                          string of dashes; and squeezing the paddles together produces an
                          alternating dot-dash-dot-dash string. You can send Morse code much
                          faster and easier with one.

                          There are also "chording" keyboards with only 4 or 5 keys; on for each
                          finger. You press them in combinations to get all the alphabetic codes
                          and punctuation.

                          --
                          Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
                          citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
                          has! -- Margaret Mead
                          --
                          Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net
                        • Bee Dee
                          I never tried the paddle keyer. And I ve thought about trying a one-handed chording keyboard. Or maybe switching to Dvorak. It would be hard at first, but you
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 3, 2012
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                            I never tried the paddle keyer. And I've thought about trying a
                            one-handed chording keyboard. Or maybe switching to Dvorak. It would
                            be hard at first, but you would speed up at some point, past your
                            current typing speed. Especially with a chord keyboard in one hand
                            and a mouse in the other. It's all just "muscle memory".

                            They've done some studies that show some of this stuff is actually
                            taken care of in the spinal nerves and such, rather than the brain.
                            That's why some things can be done so quickly, seemingly (or truly)
                            faster than the brain could actually cause them to occur. I used to
                            sport fence with foil and epee, and that's why rote practice of good
                            form is so important because you don't even think about it, you just
                            react without thinking. Touche!

                            I can imagine a fairly good keyer being able to enter quite a bit of
                            hex code fairly quickly using a standard key or paddle key. Especially
                            with some practice. It would be cool just to see it done. You could
                            make the interface with just a few chips (might need a ucontroller)
                            and probably attach it right to the switch panel of most systems.
                            (set the physical switches to all zeros first, like the way I want to
                            do my paper tape reader) If it did an auto-input after two hex digits,
                            you could fly.

                            I still want to do that idea that you and I mutually had about a
                            "calculator-style" keyboard that has 1802 opcodes that you just press
                            one or two keys and it enters the hex codes. Some would be single
                            keypresses and some would be two (like INC & (0-F)), or an opcode key
                            and a short or long hex address for immediates and branches. That would
                            be awesome, you could probably even do it without a ucontroller if you
                            got fancy with hardware, and I plan on offering that virtually on the
                            SimElf++ / COSMAC ELF^2 at some point.
                          • Lee Hart
                            ... For the special case of entering hex, I ll bet we could work out a very easy to learn code. For example, suppose it had a straight key (just a simple
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 3, 2012
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                              Bee Dee wrote:
                              > I never tried the paddle keyer. And I've thought about trying a
                              > one-handed chording keyboard. Or maybe switching to Dvorak. It would
                              > be hard at first, but you would speed up at some point, past your
                              > current typing speed. Especially with a chord keyboard in one hand
                              > and a mouse in the other. It's all just "muscle memory".

                              For the special case of entering hex, I'll bet we could work out a very
                              easy to learn code. For example, suppose it had a "straight key" (just a
                              simple pushbutton switch). Use dot for 0, and dash for 1. Enter all 8
                              bits, followed by a pause, and it gets loaded. For example, to enter
                              1100 1010, you'd key dash-dash-dot-dot-dash-dot-dash-dot. Half a second
                              later, the circuit presses the "in" button for you to load it, display
                              it on the LEDs, and advance to the next location.

                              If you make a mistake, it could be corrected by just holding the key
                              down for more than a second; that would prevent the circuit from
                              pressing the "in" button, and you could re-key the value you want.

                              Or, you could provide five pushbuttons labelled "8", "4", "2", and "1"
                              and "In". Use them for a chording type input, where you press the binary
                              code for the value you want (high nibble first, then low nibble), then
                              In to enter it. You'd have to press "In" twice, once for the high
                              nibble, and once for the low nibble.

                              > I can imagine a fairly good keyer being able to enter quite a bit of
                              > hex code fairly quickly using a standard key or paddle key. Especially
                              > with some practice. It would be cool just to see it done. You could
                              > make the interface with just a few chips (might need a ucontroller)

                              Millions of people have learned the Morse code (including me). It isn't
                              actually all that hard; most people pick it up fairly quickly. It takes
                              practice to get fast, but that's not especially important here. I
                              already know of hams who can't touch-type, so they enter text with their
                              Morse code key (for them it's faster and easier).

                              Keyers can use microcomputers of course, but they've been built for
                              decades and often do *not* use a micro. All it takes is a couple
                              low-level IC gates. In an Elf, you already have a micro, so you may as
                              well use it (unless you want it to work without any program in memory).

                              > I still want to do that idea that you and I mutually had about a
                              > "calculator-style" keyboard that has 1802 opcodes that you just press
                              > one or two keys and it enters the hex codes. Some would be single
                              > keypresses and some would be two (like INC& (0-F)), or an opcode key
                              > and a short or long hex address for immediates and branches. That would
                              > be awesome, you could probably even do it without a ucontroller if you
                              > got fancy with hardware, and I plan on offering that virtually on the
                              > SimElf++ / COSMAC ELF^2 at some point.

                              Yeah, it would be fun to try. Maybe do it in conjunction with an
                              alphanumeric display. Say you had a 16-key hex keypad. Each key has the
                              usual 0-9,A-F label, plus the generic name of the opcode that starts
                              with that nibble (0=ldn, 1=inc, 2=dec, 8=glo, 9=ghi, A=plo, B=phi etc.)
                              But the display shows the instruction you are assembling.

                              press display shows address, and instruction being assembled
                              ----- ------------------------------------------------------
                              1234 _ (display next address)
                              1 0123 INC _ (display generic name)
                              4 1234 INC R4 (display complete instruction)
                              in 1235 _ (loads instruction, advance to next address)

                              For those opcodes where the first nibble isn't enough, correct it when
                              the second nibble is entered

                              0 1235 LDN _ (most are LDN something)
                              0 1235 IDL (but 00 is a special case; the IDL instruction)

                              Or would it work to display the hex keypad on the screen with an 1861,
                              and use a light pen to "press" the keys? The labels on the keys could
                              change according to what the next digit will do.

                              Yet another input device that could be fun. How about putting an Elf
                              with video output in an old mouse? As you move it, the cursor moves on
                              the screen. Again, display the keyboard, and click the keys to enter them.

                              --
                              If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
                              -- Albert Einstein
                              --
                              Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net
                            • Mark Graybill
                              I like keyers a lot, though I tend to prefer a traditional keyer to an iambic keyer (one with two paddles that can be pressed at once, traditional types have a
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jan 3, 2012
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                                I like keyers a lot, though I tend to prefer a traditional keyer to an
                                iambic keyer (one with two paddles that can be pressed at once, traditional
                                types have a singe arm that goes right or left).

                                I looked at Lee's Dit/Dah encoding versus using international Morse for the
                                digit characters--Lee's method is marginally more efficient. The average
                                morse weight (relative transfer time) per character is 14, max 18 (F), min
                                10 (0). Morse is an average of 14.375 per digit, max 22 (0), min 4 (E).

                                Keyers can be made without logic, many of today's keyers are still
                                mechanical. They use mechanisms that give different contact closure times
                                depending on which direction the paddle is moved.

                                Though in an Elf, I could see just using debounced switches on two
                                different inputs to simplify things. Different length tones would be
                                generated in software. An encoded rotary switch would set the rate.

                                Q would drive both LED and speaker for output.

                                Plus maybe an LCD display for wimps. ;)

                                With Morse, a string of six or more dits could mark an error. Any string of
                                over eight bits could do the same in 0dit/1dah encoding. "dididadi *oh
                                heck* dididididit".

                                Going back to keyboard options, between full ASCII and the hex keypad lies
                                the TTY keyboard. 32 keys

                                Mark G., *new call sign: W8BIT woot!
                                http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/ApplicationSearch/applServiceSpecific.jsp?applID=6518887

                                (KO5MAC is still available!)

                                On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:

                                > **
                                >
                                >
                                > Bee Dee wrote:
                                > > I never tried the paddle keyer. And I've thought about trying a
                                > > one-handed chording keyboard. Or maybe switching to Dvorak. It would
                                > > be hard at first, but you would speed up at some point, past your
                                > > current typing speed. Especially with a chord keyboard in one hand
                                > > and a mouse in the other. It's all just "muscle memory".
                                >
                                > For the special case of entering hex, I'll bet we could work out a very
                                > easy to learn code. For example, suppose it had a "straight key" (just a
                                > simple pushbutton switch). Use dot for 0, and dash for 1. Enter all 8
                                > bits, followed by a pause, and it gets loaded. For example, to enter
                                > 1100 1010, you'd key dash-dash-dot-dot-dash-dot-dash-dot. Half a second
                                > later, the circuit presses the "in" button for you to load it, display
                                > it on the LEDs, and advance to the next location.
                                >
                                > If you make a mistake, it could be corrected by just holding the key
                                > down for more than a second; that would prevent the circuit from
                                > pressing the "in" button, and you could re-key the value you want.
                                >
                                > Or, you could provide five pushbuttons labelled "8", "4", "2", and "1"
                                > and "In". Use them for a chording type input, where you press the binary
                                > code for the value you want (high nibble first, then low nibble), then
                                > In to enter it. You'd have to press "In" twice, once for the high
                                > nibble, and once for the low nibble.
                                >
                                > > I can imagine a fairly good keyer being able to enter quite a bit of
                                > > hex code fairly quickly using a standard key or paddle key. Especially
                                > > with some practice. It would be cool just to see it done. You could
                                > > make the interface with just a few chips (might need a ucontroller)
                                >
                                > Millions of people have learned the Morse code (including me). It isn't
                                > actually all that hard; most people pick it up fairly quickly. It takes
                                > practice to get fast, but that's not especially important here. I
                                > already know of hams who can't touch-type, so they enter text with their
                                > Morse code key (for them it's faster and easier).
                                >
                                > Keyers can use microcomputers of course, but they've been built for
                                > decades and often do *not* use a micro. All it takes is a couple
                                > low-level IC gates. In an Elf, you already have a micro, so you may as
                                > well use it (unless you want it to work without any program in memory).
                                >
                                > > I still want to do that idea that you and I mutually had about a
                                > > "calculator-style" keyboard that has 1802 opcodes that you just press
                                > > one or two keys and it enters the hex codes. Some would be single
                                > > keypresses and some would be two (like INC& (0-F)), or an opcode key
                                > > and a short or long hex address for immediates and branches. That would
                                > > be awesome, you could probably even do it without a ucontroller if you
                                > > got fancy with hardware, and I plan on offering that virtually on the
                                > > SimElf++ / COSMAC ELF^2 at some point.
                                >
                                > Yeah, it would be fun to try. Maybe do it in conjunction with an
                                > alphanumeric display. Say you had a 16-key hex keypad. Each key has the
                                > usual 0-9,A-F label, plus the generic name of the opcode that starts
                                > with that nibble (0=ldn, 1=inc, 2=dec, 8=glo, 9=ghi, A=plo, B=phi etc.)
                                > But the display shows the instruction you are assembling.
                                >
                                > press display shows address, and instruction being assembled
                                > ----- ------------------------------------------------------
                                > 1234 _ (display next address)
                                > 1 0123 INC _ (display generic name)
                                > 4 1234 INC R4 (display complete instruction)
                                > in 1235 _ (loads instruction, advance to next address)
                                >
                                > For those opcodes where the first nibble isn't enough, correct it when
                                > the second nibble is entered
                                >
                                > 0 1235 LDN _ (most are LDN something)
                                > 0 1235 IDL (but 00 is a special case; the IDL instruction)
                                >
                                > Or would it work to display the hex keypad on the screen with an 1861,
                                > and use a light pen to "press" the keys? The labels on the keys could
                                > change according to what the next digit will do.
                                >
                                > Yet another input device that could be fun. How about putting an Elf
                                > with video output in an old mouse? As you move it, the cursor moves on
                                > the screen. Again, display the keyboard, and click the keys to enter them.
                                >
                                > --
                                > If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
                                > -- Albert Einstein
                                > --
                                > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Bee Dee
                                I would just use standard keying. People should know that, anyway, in case you are imprisoned in a dungeon or prison cell or locked away somewhere by a psycho
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jan 4, 2012
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                                  I would just use standard keying. People should know that, anyway, in case
                                  you are imprisoned in a dungeon or prison cell or locked away somewhere
                                  by a psycho and you can signal for help. ;o) (how many words can you
                                  spell with the letters A-F? -- these days most (young) people would
                                  probably not even be able to do a decent SOS)

                                  And I wouldn't worry about 'errors'. That would really slow you down.
                                  Just auto-input after each two-digit hex number. (similar to the standard
                                  switch input -- it helps encourage accuracy)
                                • Bee Dee
                                  For those of you who might want to get started on learning Morse Code for the inevitable 1802-Keyer interface, check out this website.
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jan 12, 2012
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                                    For those of you who might want to get started on learning Morse Code
                                    for the inevitable 1802-Keyer interface, check out this website.

                                    http://www.justlearnmorsecode.com/


                                    (I am now thinking about using this as the input device for my
                                    SteamPunk 1802 system rather than 8 switches -- I was thinking that a
                                    phone-style hex rotary dial interface might be cool, too, although I
                                    would have to build that from scratch -- if I do, the keyer will be an
                                    add-on -- another add-on peripheral I was going to create is a hex keypad
                                    that uses old typewriter-style keys)


                                    - Bill D
                                    ... CRAV Computing Hobbyist : Classic/Retro/Antique/Vintage
                                    ..... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cravcomp/
                                    ..... http://www.donnelly-house.net/
                                  • Mark Graybill
                                    I ve been thinking about a hex dial switch, too. I have several old phone dials laid aside to use in decimal based systems, but I can t help but think how much
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jan 12, 2012
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                                      I've been thinking about a hex dial switch, too. I have several old phone dials laid aside to use in decimal based systems, but I can't help but think how much fun a hex dial would be. Unfortunately, they're a fairly complex mechanism if you want to make them reliable.

                                      I've also considered using a dozenal dial as a step toward a hex one. Only two more holes to fit in, dek and el. I make a dozenal calculator once (1802-based, as it happens, originally just an Elf II program but later made with dedicated hardware), I'd like to build another, as well as a dozenal micro trainer. Both may happen using AVRs, since my interests with 1802 are more Elf-oriented these days.

                                      Mark G., W8BIT
                                      ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                      http://saundby.com/
                                      Electronics, Books, Video Games, etc.

                                      On Jan 12, 2012, at 3:44 PM, Bee Dee wrote:

                                      > For those of you who might want to get started on learning Morse Code
                                      > for the inevitable 1802-Keyer interface, check out this website.
                                      >
                                      > http://www.justlearnmorsecode.com/
                                      >
                                      > (I am now thinking about using this as the input device for my
                                      > SteamPunk 1802 system rather than 8 switches -- I was thinking that a
                                      > phone-style hex rotary dial interface might be cool, too, although I
                                      > would have to build that from scratch -- if I do, the keyer will be an
                                      > add-on -- another add-on peripheral I was going to create is a hex keypad
                                      > that uses old typewriter-style keys)
                                      >
                                      > - Bill D
                                      > ... CRAV Computing Hobbyist : Classic/Retro/Antique/Vintage
                                      > ..... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cravcomp/
                                      > ..... http://www.donnelly-house.net/
                                      >
                                      >



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Bee Dee
                                      Yeah, I was thinking about modifying a phone dial mechanism and making it divisible by sixteen rather than ten. Or making something that works similarly based
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jan 12, 2012
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                                        Yeah, I was thinking about modifying a phone dial mechanism and making
                                        it divisible by sixteen rather than ten. Or making something that works
                                        similarly based on those mechanisms. And the dial would also need to be
                                        specially made. If you wanted to keep the same finger hole size, it
                                        would be a bit large. So I might make them smaller and us a stylus.
                                        Mostly I would want it to look and feel and sound like a telephone dialer.

                                        Apparently you can DIY bakelite, which would give stuff a nice look and
                                        feel. It's hard to make stuff (like plastics) look and feel like bakelite.


                                        - Bill D
                                        ... CRAV Computing Hobbyist : Classic/Retro/Antique/Vintage
                                        ..... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cravcomp/
                                        ..... http://www.donnelly-house.net/
                                      • Marc
                                        Hello Everyone, I used the following 4X4 keypad available at Newark for about $10 in my New ELF II design (marcpic.com) and it works great with the 74C923.
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jan 13, 2012
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                                          Hello Everyone,

                                          I used the following 4X4 keypad available at Newark for about $10 in my New ELF II design (marcpic.com) and it works great with the 74C923.

                                          It's super easy to switch the key caps around by removing about 5 or 6 screws, if I recall, in the back.

                                          Newark partnumber 01J2158 --> http://www.newark.com/eao/eco-16250-06/switch-keypad-4x4-20ma-24v-polycarbonate/dp/01J2158?Ntt=01j2158

                                          Regards,

                                          Marc
                                        • Lee Hart
                                          ... Interesting idea. Of course, you could use the dial as-is, and enter data in octal (FF = 377). This also lets you use the 8 and 9 (unused in octal) for
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jan 13, 2012
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                                            On 1/13/2012 1:58 AM, Bee Dee wrote:
                                            > Yeah, I was thinking about modifying a phone dial mechanism and making
                                            > it divisible by sixteen rather than ten...

                                            Interesting idea.

                                            Of course, you could use the dial as-is, and enter data in octal (FF =
                                            377). This also lets you use the 8 and 9 (unused in octal) for other
                                            functions (like reset or load mode).

                                            Or for a real 16-digit rotary dial, I think I'd make one. The dials I
                                            remember were metal, not plastic. It wouldn't be too hard to make a
                                            metal dial with 16 finger-holes. Get it powder-coated to have a durable
                                            finish that won't quickly wear off.

                                            For the mechanism, I think I'd "cheat" and use something easier to make.
                                            Put the dial on the shaft of a small stepper motor. Just have a single
                                            switch that detects when the dial is in the "home" position. When you
                                            move the dial off home and release it, the switch tells the logic to run
                                            the stepper to drive it back to "home". Count the steps it took to get
                                            to "home", and you know the number dialed.

                                            With a metal dial, use a capacitive touch sensor to detect when the user
                                            touches and releases the dial (so the motor only tries to run when the
                                            dial isn't being touched or at "home"). With a plastic dial, an optical
                                            sensor could do the same job.

                                            The micro itself could sense the switches and drive the stepper with a
                                            little input program. Or, it doesn't take much discrete logic to do it.

                                            One other idea: How about using a standard 10-hole dial with your own
                                            mechanism behind it as above? Instead of rotating it only one way,
                                            rotate it *either way*. Clockwise 0-9 gives you 0-9 as you'd expect. But
                                            *counterclockwise* 1-6 is also labelled A-F and enters these hex values.
                                            With a motor, the dial can be moved in either direction.

                                            The extreme case of a 10-hole dial with the finger stop halfway between
                                            the gap allows up to 20 functions (0-9 clockwise, 0-9 counterclockwise).

                                            --
                                            Ring the bells that still can ring
                                            Forget your perfect offering
                                            There is a crack in everything
                                            That's how the light gets in.
                                            -- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
                                            --
                                            Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net
                                          • whd_whd_whd
                                            Those are some good ideas, Lee. Thanks. - Bill D ... CRAV Computing Hobbyist : Classic/Retro/Antique/Vintage ..... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cravcomp/
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Jan 13, 2012
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                                              Those are some good ideas, Lee. Thanks.


                                              - Bill D
                                              ... CRAV Computing Hobbyist : Classic/Retro/Antique/Vintage
                                              ..... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cravcomp/
                                              ..... http://www.donnelly-house.net/
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