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Re: [cosmacelf] Did I miss something

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  • Lee Hart
    ... Others may have more direct data, but as I recall, the 1802 was not in the Voyager or Viking. It may have been used in some capacity elsewhere in the
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 1, 2011
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      On 7/28/2011 6:41 PM, the-eagle@... wrote:
      > ...RCA's 1802 was used in NASA's Voyager and Viking
      > spaceprobes of the 1970s, and onboard the Galileo probe to Jupiter

      Others may have more direct data, but as I recall, the 1802 was not in
      the Voyager or Viking. It may have been used in some capacity elsewhere
      in the programs.

      It definitely was used in the Galileo though.

      > The CDP1802... production process (Silicon on
      > Sapphire) ensured much better protection against cosmic radiation and
      > electrostatic discharges than that of any other processor of the era.

      The original 1802 and subsequent 1802A are plain old metal-gate CMOS,
      just like the generic 4000-series CMOS. The later SOS
      (silicon-on-sapphire) version came out much later. They were very rare
      (and very expensive), and ran at some amazing clock speed like 18 MHz.

      > Thus, the 1802 is said to be the first radiation-hardened
      > microprocessor.

      I believe the radiation hardening was in part due to the intrinsically
      high noise immunity of CMOS. It was a consequence of the low speed,
      large transistor sizes, and high supply voltages allowed.

      Then, they used special packaging to provide better shielding.

      The later CMOS SOS chips were better yet, but not available to us mere
      mortals.

      --
      Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
      814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
      Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
      leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
    • aa3nm
      I believe Herb Johnson has tied the ribbons on the question via his web pages… If anyone is interested in detailed and authoritative information about this
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 1, 2011
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        I believe Herb Johnson has tied the ribbons on the question via his web pagesÂ…
        If anyone is interested in detailed and authoritative information about this subject please refer to Herb's page, COSMAC 1802 history in space which may be found here:
        http://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/1802_spacecraft.html

        (I think I'll also repost this in a new thread for completeness.)

        73,

        Steve Gemeny
        (AA3NM)
        --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:
        >
        > On 7/28/2011 6:41 PM, the-eagle@... wrote:
        > > ...RCA's 1802 was used in NASA's Voyager and Viking
        > > spaceprobes of the 1970s, and onboard the Galileo probe to Jupiter
        >
        > Others may have more direct data, but as I recall, the 1802 was not in
        > the Voyager or Viking. It may have been used in some capacity elsewhere
        > in the programs.
        >
        > It definitely was used in the Galileo though.
        >
        > > The CDP1802... production process (Silicon on
        > > Sapphire) ensured much better protection against cosmic radiation and
        > > electrostatic discharges than that of any other processor of the era.
        >
        > The original 1802 and subsequent 1802A are plain old metal-gate CMOS,
        > just like the generic 4000-series CMOS. The later SOS
        > (silicon-on-sapphire) version came out much later. They were very rare
        > (and very expensive), and ran at some amazing clock speed like 18 MHz.
        >
        > > Thus, the 1802 is said to be the first radiation-hardened
        > > microprocessor.
        >
        > I believe the radiation hardening was in part due to the intrinsically
        > high noise immunity of CMOS. It was a consequence of the low speed,
        > large transistor sizes, and high supply voltages allowed.
        >
        > Then, they used special packaging to provide better shielding.
        >
        > The later CMOS SOS chips were better yet, but not available to us mere
        > mortals.
        >
        > --
        > Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
        > 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
        > Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
        > leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
        >
      • Charles Richmond
        ... The 1802 was also used in some of the OSCAR amateur radio satellites. OSCAR is an acronym for Orbiting Satellite Carrying Amateur Radio. --
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 1, 2011
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          On Aug 1, 2011, at 7:12 AM, Lee Hart wrote:

          > On 7/28/2011 6:41 PM, the-eagle@... wrote:
          > > ...RCA's 1802 was used in NASA's Voyager and Viking
          > > spaceprobes of the 1970s, and onboard the Galileo probe to Jupiter
          >
          > Others may have more direct data, but as I recall, the 1802 was not in
          > the Voyager or Viking. It may have been used in some capacity
          > elsewhere
          > in the programs.
          >
          > It definitely was used in the Galileo though.
          >
          >
          The 1802 was also used in some of the OSCAR amateur radio satellites.
          OSCAR is an acronym for Orbiting Satellite Carrying Amateur Radio.

          --
          +----------------------------------------+
          | Charles and Francis Richmond |
          | |
          | plano dot net at aquaporin4 dot com |
          +----------------------------------------+
        • Lee Hart
          ... You could still be correct. There have been thousands of spacecraft. It s not easy to ferret out what NASA used. Many military aerospace projects are
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 2, 2011
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            On 7/29/2011 3:04 PM, the-eagle@... wrote:
            > I have been fooled for all these years, back in 1977/78 when I put my
            > COSMAC ELF together, I thought I was assembling a computer that was
            > used in the early spaceflight program.

            You could still be correct. There have been thousands of spacecraft.
            It's not easy to ferret out what NASA used. Many military aerospace
            projects are classified, so we have no idea what they used. The 1802 was
            a logical choice.

            The web is helpful, but is not a very reliable source of data. You can
            find correct answers, but also every permutation of wrong answers to
            most questions. :-)

            One little nugget I can add: Ham radio operators have been building and
            deploying their own amateur satellites since 1972. They formed AMSAT
            (AMateur SATellite Corp), which has built a long line of OSCAR
            satellites, getting them into orbit by "hitchhiking" a ride on various
            government and commercial launches (the ham satellites are used as
            ballast or filler in some other mission).

            Anyway, the Jan 1979 issue of Byte Magazine had an article "IPS: An
            Unorthodox High Level Language" by Dr. Karl Meinzer. It described a
            version of FORTH that was used on the 1802 in the ham's OSCAR
            satellites. I haven't found dates for all the OSCAR launches, but AMSAT
            OSCAR-10, launched in 6/16/1983, definitely had an 1802 on board. This
            definitely precedes Galileo's launch in 1989.

            --
            Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
            814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
            Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
            leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
          • Dennis Boone
            ... IPS isn t a version of FORTH, though it does have key similarities. The point of developing IPS in the first place was that AMSAT couldn t afford to buy a
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 2, 2011
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              > Anyway, the Jan 1979 issue of Byte Magazine had an article "IPS: An
              > Unorthodox High Level Language" by Dr. Karl Meinzer. It described a
              > version of FORTH that was used on the 1802 in the ham's OSCAR
              > satellites. I haven't found dates for all the OSCAR launches, but AMSAT
              > OSCAR-10, launched in 6/16/1983, definitely had an 1802 on board. This
              > definitely precedes Galileo's launch in 1989.

              IPS isn't a version of FORTH, though it does have key similarities. The
              point of developing IPS in the first place was that AMSAT couldn't
              afford to buy a FORTH license at the time, and in any event they wanted
              multiprocessing support that I believe they felt was missing from FORTH.
              Since the original development of the language was by a German, the
              language keywords are in German. There was an effort to "translate" the
              language for English-speaking programmers, but my understanding is that
              the translation never really caught on, and the key US contributors to
              the satellites ended up writing German IPS.

              Meinzer, btw, is an amusing fellow. AMSAT has been discussing a space
              probe that would be sent to another planet in recent years, and at one
              point someone asked Meinzer what would happen if the probe missed
              orbital insertion there. His answer was something to the effect of
              (imagine a German accent here) "then we would set a new amateur radio
              distance record every day."

              De
            • Lee Hart
              ... I know; but that was the easiest way to explain IPS. I had the same problem with FORTH s cost (I think they wanted $2500 at the time), which inspired me to
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 2, 2011
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                On 8/2/2011 11:19 AM, Dennis Boone wrote:
                > IPS isn't a version of FORTH, though it does have key similarities. The
                > point of developing IPS in the first place was that AMSAT couldn't
                > afford to buy a FORTH license at the time, and in any event they wanted
                > multiprocessing support that I believe they felt was missing from FORTH.

                I know; but that was the easiest way to explain IPS. I had the same
                problem with FORTH's cost (I think they wanted $2500 at the time), which
                inspired me to write 8TH (my own version of FORTH).

                > AMSAT has been discussing a space
                > probe that would be sent to another planet in recent years

                Interesting! Thanks for the comments.

                I believe AMSAT is working on freeloading a ride to Mars!

                --
                Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
                814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
                Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
                leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
              • thinkpast
                ... The 1802 *was* used relatively early in space - just not on the spacecraft you might have thought. Early spaceflight extends to 1959, you know, well
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 4, 2011
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                  --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "the-eagle@..." <the-eagle@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I have been fooled for all these years, back in 1977/78 when I
                  > put my COSMAC ELF together, I thought I was assembling a
                  > computer that was used in the early spaceflight program.
                  >I know now that there is no known facts that can be used to
                  > state that the 1802 was onboard the Voyager and Pioneer
                  >spacecraft. However it was used on the Galileo. What an
                  > eye opener.

                  >Thanks Steve for your reply. I think that
                  > on the NASA website that they make mention that the 1802
                  > has been used even on the Space Shuttle. I will look
                  >into that a little deeper. Once again: Thanks Steve.
                  > didn't mean to bring this up if it has already been
                  > posted. I do apologize for that.

                  The 1802 *was* used relatively early in space - just not on the spacecraft you might have thought. "Early spaceflight" extends to 1959, you know, well before microprocessors. The Galileo was designed late in the 1970's - for many reasons, it was not completed until 1983 and not launched until 1986 (approximately). But there's good evidence that a number of 1802-based spacecraft were launched and operated in space in the late 1970's.

                  If you search the cosmacelf discussion here, Galileo, Voyager, Viking and the 1802 were last discussed in Dec 2010, by me (Herb Johnson) and others. At the time, I found it was COMMON on the Web, including Wikipedia, to claim the 1802 was used on the Viking and Voyager spacecrafts. As I said in December, when I dug into actual descriptions of the spacecraft's hardware, I found that only Galileo used the 1802.

                  I wrote some notes, listed my references, and added them at that time, to the end of Lee Hart's 1802 "Membership Card" Web page:

                  http://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/memship.html

                  After that, a number of Web sites corrected their histories of those spacecraft or of the 1802.

                  When Steve contacted me recently about his "Two Processors" paper, we discussed this further. He provided another point of reference, and I did more background research. I've now added to the information about the 1802 in spacecraft and spun that off as a separate Web page:

                  http://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/1802_spacecraft.html

                  All my references are cited, and are "primary sources" - documents or accounts from those who worked on these spacecraft. The earliest scientific or commercial use of the 1802 in space, appears to be the MAGSAT launched Oct. 30, 1979. Steve's "two processor" paper references this, and he recently provided me with a technical report of that JHU/APL project. A copy is on my Web site.

                  I've had additional comments from Lee Hart about "amsats" - amateur radio satellites. Lee, a radio amateur himself, found that some early amsats also used the 1802. Information on their internal construction is less complete and much harder to find. I will add that information to that Web page in due course.

                  It appears at this point, the MAGSAT was first to space with an 1802. An amsat designed in about the same period, may or may not have had an 1802, was launched but failed to get to orbit. They were definitely used later in some amsats. My work on that subject is in progress.

                  Thanks to Steve Gemeny and Lee Hart for their work and research into the 1802's use in space, and sharing that information with me.

                  Herb Johnson
                  retrotechnology.com
                • thinkpast
                  ... Yes, as I ve just posted in this thread, Lee Hart called that to my attention privately. I m adding that info to my Web page in due course. If you have
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 4, 2011
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                    --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Charles Richmond <yahoogroups@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > The 1802 was also used in some of the OSCAR amateur radio satellites.
                    > OSCAR is an acronym for Orbiting Satellite Carrying Amateur Radio.
                    >

                    Yes, as I've just posted in this thread, Lee Hart called that to my attention privately. I'm adding that info to my Web page in due course. If you have information on the *construction details* of the early OSCAR satellites, OSCAR 8, 9, 10, 11; or the development programs related to OSCARS of that period; please contact me privately so I can add that information.

                    Herb Johnson
                    retrotechnology.com
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