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ELF II on eBay

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  • druske <dave@ruske.net>
    It s been pointed out to me that there s an auction for a Netronics ELF II up on eBay, currently going for $20...
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 24, 2003
      It's been pointed out to me that there's an auction for a Netronics
      ELF II up on eBay, currently going for $20...

      http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=2303488268

      The seller doesn't say whether it works, though, just that it's been
      in a box since 1979.

      Dave
    • Dave <ws407c@aol.com>
      ... ViewItem&category=1247&item=2303488268 ... Well , here is the elf that was on ebay. It was not as in the picture and sometimes it is best to take a chance.
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 8, 2003
        --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "druske <dave@r...>" <dave@r...>
        wrote:
        > It's been pointed out to me that there's an auction for a Netronics
        > ELF II up on eBay, currently going for $20...
        >
        > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
        ViewItem&category=1247&item=2303488268
        >
        > The seller doesn't say whether it works, though, just that it's been
        > in a box since 1979.
        >
        > Dave

        Well , here is the elf that was on ebay. It was not as in the picture
        and sometimes it is best to take a chance.

        http://members.aol.com/ws407c//elf7.jpg

        Dave
      • Dave <ws407c@aol.com>
        ... ViewItem&category=1247&item=2303488268 ... Well , here is the elf that was on ebay. It was not as in the picture and sometimes it is best to take a chance.
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 8, 2003
          --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "druske <dave@r...>" <dave@r...>
          wrote:
          > It's been pointed out to me that there's an auction for a Netronics
          > ELF II up on eBay, currently going for $20...
          >
          > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
          ViewItem&category=1247&item=2303488268
          >
          > The seller doesn't say whether it works, though, just that it's been
          > in a box since 1979.
          >
          > Dave

          Well , here is the elf that was on ebay. It was not as in the picture
          and sometimes it is best to take a chance.

          http://members.aol.com/ws407c/elf7.jpg

          Dave
        • J.C.Wren
          I m still trying to figure out just how many different 1802 boards Netronics made. So far, I ve seen at least 4 variations on what you ve got. And I really
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 8, 2003
            I'm still trying to figure out just how many different 1802 boards Netronics
            made. So far, I've seen at least 4 variations on what you've got.

            And I really like the armor plating over the expansion board. I figure
            that'll stop at least a .38 +P round...

            --John

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Dave <ws407c@...> [mailto:ws407c@...]
            Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 09:15
            To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [cosmacelf] Re: ELF II on eBay


            --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "druske <dave@r...>" <dave@r...>
            wrote:
            > It's been pointed out to me that there's an auction for a Netronics
            > ELF II up on eBay, currently going for $20...
            >
            > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
            ViewItem&category=1247&item=2303488268
            >
            > The seller doesn't say whether it works, though, just that it's been
            > in a box since 1979.
            >
            > Dave

            Well , here is the elf that was on ebay. It was not as in the picture
            and sometimes it is best to take a chance.

            http://members.aol.com/ws407c/elf7.jpg

            Dave


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • ws407c@aol.com
            Yes, just how I received it in the mail. I like the job they did on the main board but it is a bit overkill on the giant board. After careful inspection along
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 8, 2003
              Yes, just how I received it in the mail. I like the job they did on the main
              board but
              it is a bit overkill on the giant board.

              After careful inspection along with the manual , this is a version "2" board.

              I ran all tests and it is good to go,

              Dave
            • William Waters <engineer1@surewest.net>
              Dave, I know Netronics had at least 3 board revisions, mine is a Rev C board and the documentation on my Giant board specifies how to modify a Rev. 1, 2 and 3
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 8, 2003
                Dave,

                I know Netronics had at least 3 board revisions, mine is a Rev C
                board and the documentation on my Giant board specifies how to modify
                a Rev. 1, 2 and 3 board.

                I notice from the picture that your new find has 2 additional 86 pin
                edge connectors so you can plug in memory & I/O boards.... Thats
                great, those connectors are hard to find. I went through lot of
                effort finding a few so I could use my home made memory boards.

                Regarding burning EPROMS. I have the ability in my home LAB to
                program just about any memory device and I have the binary for both
                the TMSI Tiny Basic (RS232 only) and the Netronics Tiny Basic
                (Video/Parallel Keyboard or RS232). Let me know if I can help you
                there (or anyone else that does not have a programmer handy, let me
                know if I can help).

                One difference between the 2 basics in operation is in their memory
                requirements. The Netronics version needs to run in RAM. It stores
                its variables etc. in the first 1K or memory, and the video buffer is
                in the 4th 1K of RAM. I run it in a battery backed up 8K SRAM. I
                load the program into the SRAM from my programmer, and then put it
                into one of my memory cards (I use ZIF sockets). If I crash the
                system and 'munch' the RAM contents, I just re-load it with the
                programmer. The TMSI version which I think is a better
                implementation, sits in a 4K EPROM and needs RAM starting at 1000h.
                I designed my memory card to use 8K parts but 1 memory position has
                the top 4K disabled, and all parts are addressable down to 4K. This
                way I can run the TMSI Tiny Basic. I used the 8K memory size design
                because it is getting hard to find 4K CMOS EPROMS, and there is no
                such thing as 4K parallel SRAMs, just 2K and 8K, so 8K was the best
                choice for me.

                As a side note, I went to the trouble of this design idea because I
                can NOT get the tape interface to load the whole Tiny Basic properly
                from my cassette player. I have spent many a evening looking at the
                SCOPE trying to understand what was wrong. Decided it must be my
                cheep tape deck...

                Soory for the long response, and good luck...

                Will





                --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, ws407c@a... wrote:
                > Yes, just how I received it in the mail. I like the job they did on
                the main
                > board but
                > it is a bit overkill on the giant board.
                >
                > After careful inspection along with the manual , this is a
                version "2" board.
                >
                > I ran all tests and it is good to go,
                >
                > Dave
              • ws407c@aol.com
                Will, This is great ! I will definitly keep in contact with you on the tiny basic s .I would be interested in an eprom of each version. I now need to start the
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 8, 2003
                  Will, This is great ! I will definitly keep in contact with you on the tiny
                  basic's .I would be interested in an eprom of each version. I now need to
                  start the layout of my new ELF. Yes I am going to build one from scratch and
                  need to figure out what layout I am going to use. This will be the hardest
                  part. I wish to do a cross between ELF II and Super ELF, I like the address
                  displays ! I have a couple of Pro-Log M series prom programmers and the key's
                  /hex displays will work perfectly with this project. I hope to post my
                  progress (pic's) on my aol web space.

                  Dave


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Lee Hart
                  ... Note that since we have the source code, it is a simple matter to change the RAM starting address to anything we want. It will also run out of RAM, of
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 9, 2003
                    William Waters wrote:
                    > ... The TMSI version which I think is a better implementation, sits
                    > in a 4K EPROM and needs RAM starting at 1000h.

                    Note that since we have the source code, it is a simple matter to change
                    the RAM starting address to anything we want. It will also run out of
                    RAM, of course.
                    --
                    Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
                    814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
                    Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
                    leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
                  • Stewart <stew_m_3@yahoo.com>
                    ... Yeah, ZIF sockets are neat. I swap eproms so often that I extended the eprom sockets on my TMSI boards up to ZIF s on the top of their cases, for moving
                    Message 9 of 17 , Feb 11, 2003
                      --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "William Waters <engineer1@s...>" <
                      engineer1@s...> wrote:
                      > . . . (I use ZIF sockets)

                      Yeah, ZIF sockets are neat. I swap eproms so often that I extended the
                      eprom sockets on my TMSI boards up to ZIF's on the top of their cases,
                      for moving code quickly into the little SBC's. With a burner
                      permanently hanging onto one leg of a serial port switch on my everyday
                      Mac, I can play with code using the CrossBow cross-assembler or bring
                      it in from the Net; and either way it is into an eprom and over to the
                      1802's in no time! And the eproms are really cheap these days on eBay,
                      or even free pulled from old dead Kaypros and such.

                      cheers, Stew
                    • mtgills
                      ... modify ... pin ... William; I am a new member of the cosmacelf.com group and have not yet posted any messages. It is all very new to me. However I
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 14, 2003
                        --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "William Waters <engineer1@s...>"
                        <engineer1@s...> wrote:
                        > Dave,
                        >
                        > I know Netronics had at least 3 board revisions, mine is a Rev C
                        > board and the documentation on my Giant board specifies how to
                        modify
                        > a Rev. 1, 2 and 3 board.
                        >
                        > I notice from the picture that your new find has 2 additional 86
                        pin
                        > edge connectors so you can plug in memory & I/O boards.... Thats
                        > great, those connectors are hard to find. I went through lot of
                        > effort finding a few so I could use my home made memory boards.
                        >
                        > Regarding burning EPROMS. I have the ability in my home LAB to
                        > program just about any memory device and I have the binary for both
                        > the TMSI Tiny Basic (RS232 only) and the Netronics Tiny Basic
                        > (Video/Parallel Keyboard or RS232). Let me know if I can help you
                        > there (or anyone else that does not have a programmer handy, let me
                        > know if I can help).
                        >
                        <snip>

                        William;

                        I am a new member of the cosmacelf.com group and have not yet posted
                        any messages. It is all very new to me. However I have read all 895
                        messages posted. Excuse me if it is bad form to go back to old
                        threads as a means of introduction.

                        I believe I have the same Elf board you have, revision C, and I have
                        just finished going over it. I have the keyboard/vid board, but have
                        not used them with the Elf because I do not have a Tiny Basic. I have
                        copied all the info I could find on Tiny Basic from the group files,
                        including Tom Pittman/Lee A. Hart's assembly listing, but it is a lot
                        to key in by hand and then try to save to tape.

                        I have also copied your Design Guide for the memory/status board, and
                        think I may have a go at it. I noted your offer of help (in message
                        685) to anyone without an eprom programmer.

                        I have an old design (1981) for an Eprom programmer that works with
                        the 1802. I also have a Bay Technical Associates Model 953A
                        programmer, but no manual, software, or understanding of how it
                        works. I know nothing about programming Eproms, or using them. I do
                        have some experience building circuit boards from the distant past.
                        For instance, I have made my own simple PCB's.

                        It will take me a while to absorb your Design Guide and gather parts.
                        I hope you may be able to help me with the Eprom at some future date.
                        You also mentioned something about a PCB CAD file. I am not familiar
                        with this and wonder if it is a PCB template that can be used to
                        create a PCB.

                        Any advice or help you can give me, particularly with the Eprom,
                        would be appreciated. Thanks.

                        I am impressed by the knowledge of the members of this group, and by
                        their willingness to share their knowledge with others. It is also
                        reassuring to know that there are others who have the same opinion I
                        have always had of the 1802, lo these many years later.

                        -mtgills
                      • bill_rowe_ottawa
                        Hello. Where are you located. perhaps someone could loan you a tape copy of the Tiny Basic. ... have ... files, ... lot
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 16, 2003
                          Hello. Where are you located. perhaps someone could loan you a tape
                          copy of the Tiny Basic.


                          --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "mtgills" <mtgills@h...> wrote:
                          >I have the keyboard/vid board, but have
                          > not used them with the Elf because I do not have a Tiny Basic. I
                          have
                          > copied all the info I could find on Tiny Basic from the group
                          files,
                          > including Tom Pittman/Lee A. Hart's assembly listing, but it is a
                          lot
                          > to key in by hand and then try to save to tape.
                        • mtgills
                          ... tape ... Hello Bill; I live in Cambridge, Ontario, (another Canuck). Well, that would be great. The route I am going right now is to try to build up
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 16, 2003
                            --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "bill_rowe_ottawa" <bill.rowe@r...>
                            wrote:
                            > Hello. Where are you located. perhaps someone could loan you a
                            tape
                            > copy of the Tiny Basic.
                            >
                            >
                            <snip>

                            Hello Bill;
                            I live in Cambridge, Ontario, (another Canuck). Well, that
                            would be great. The route I am going right now is to try to build up
                            William Waters' Memory/Status board and get Tiny Basic on Eprom.
                            William has graciously offered to assist me in the effort. I haven't
                            worked with the 1802 for over 20 years so it's taking me a bit of
                            time to clear away the cobwebs. However, finding this group has
                            rekindled my interest in experimenting with circuits for the 1802.

                            I could key in the assembly listing, but it would take a month I'm
                            sure. As an aside, I am wondering what the acronym TMSI stands for.

                            -mtgills.
                          • Dave Ruske
                            TMSI = Technical Micro Systems, Inc. Of course, on this list we just call him Lee ... ;) Dave
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 16, 2003
                              TMSI = Technical Micro Systems, Inc.

                              Of course, on this list we just call him "Lee"... ;)

                              Dave

                              On Wednesday, April 16, 2003, at 09:38 PM, mtgills wrote:
                              > As an aside, I am wondering what the acronym TMSI stands for.
                            • Lee Hart
                              ... Originally, it was Technical Micro Systems Inc . They used TMSI for short as an unofficial acronym. I was the chief engineer there until the company
                              Message 14 of 17 , Apr 16, 2003
                                mtgills wrote:
                                > As an aside, I am wondering what the acronym TMSI stands for.

                                Originally, it was "Technical Micro Systems Inc". They used TMSI for
                                short as an unofficial acronym. I was the chief engineer there until the
                                company folded in 1987. During the 6 months it took me to find another
                                job, I continued to service the company's customers privately, and
                                called myself "TMSI" (That's My Self and I). I've kept using TMSI ever
                                since as a one-person hobby business-in-the-basement.
                                --
                                Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
                                814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
                                Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
                                leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
                              • Gemeny, Steve
                                mtgills wrote: I believe I have the same Elf board you have, revision C, and I have just finished going over it. I have the keyboard/vid board, but have not
                                Message 15 of 17 , Apr 17, 2003
                                  mtgills wrote:

                                  I believe I have the same Elf board you have, revision C, and I have
                                  just finished going over it. I have the keyboard/vid board, but have
                                  not used them with the Elf because I do not have a Tiny Basic. -mtgills



                                  Here is what I'd do faced with the same problem:

                                  1) Assemble a copy of Tiny BASIC with jumps into a working RAM area for I/O
                                  routines. I'm biased towards the QUEST Variant, works the same as Lee's just
                                  occupies less memory - 2K and it's all packaged up with the freeware
                                  assembler in the files area. (It's what I run on both my original ELF and my
                                  Quest Super ELF)

                                  2) Use Richard's ELF TOOLS to make a .WAV file for use as a tape of the code
                                  generated by the assembler.

                                  3) Load it into RAM on your system (assuming you have 4 K available. If not
                                  you may want to make up a version of the RAM/ROM expansion board I made for
                                  my ELF - Schematic posted in the files area too).

                                  4) work up some I/O routines for getting keyboard data into tiny (you could
                                  leave the RS-232 stuff in for output in the short term)

                                  5) Work up an Output Routine for your vid board as time allows

                                  Finally, paste all your working code into one final working .BIN file and
                                  make a .WAV file of your own version of Tiny.

                                  If you haven't played around with assemblers try using PsudoSam on a few
                                  simple programs. Then use the ELF TOOLS wave generator to make some .WAV
                                  files for your ELF II to think are coming from a cassette tape.

                                  Don't be leery of PsudoSam, it's well documented and easy to learn.
                                  Take it out for a spin and kick the tires some with simple programs first

                                  Really, you've already got the hard part done, you have the ELF II.

                                  Good Luck,
                                  Steve











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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • mtgills
                                  ... for I/O ... Lee s just ... ELF and my ... the code ... available. If not ... made for ... (you could ... file and ... a few ... some .WAV ... first Steve;
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Apr 17, 2003
                                    --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "Gemeny, Steve" <steve.gemeny@j...>
                                    wrote:

                                    > Here is what I'd do faced with the same problem:
                                    >
                                    > 1) Assemble a copy of Tiny BASIC with jumps into a working RAM area
                                    for I/O
                                    > routines. I'm biased towards the QUEST Variant, works the same as
                                    Lee's just
                                    > occupies less memory - 2K and it's all packaged up with the freeware
                                    > assembler in the files area. (It's what I run on both my original
                                    ELF and my
                                    > Quest Super ELF)
                                    >
                                    > 2) Use Richard's ELF TOOLS to make a .WAV file for use as a tape of
                                    the code
                                    > generated by the assembler.
                                    >
                                    > 3) Load it into RAM on your system (assuming you have 4 K
                                    available. If not
                                    > you may want to make up a version of the RAM/ROM expansion board I
                                    made for
                                    > my ELF - Schematic posted in the files area too).
                                    >
                                    > 4) work up some I/O routines for getting keyboard data into tiny
                                    (you could
                                    > leave the RS-232 stuff in for output in the short term)
                                    >
                                    > 5) Work up an Output Routine for your vid board as time allows
                                    >
                                    > Finally, paste all your working code into one final working .BIN
                                    file and
                                    > make a .WAV file of your own version of Tiny.
                                    >
                                    > If you haven't played around with assemblers try using PsudoSam on
                                    a few
                                    > simple programs. Then use the ELF TOOLS wave generator to make
                                    some .WAV
                                    > files for your ELF II to think are coming from a cassette tape.
                                    >
                                    > Don't be leery of PsudoSam, it's well documented and easy to learn.
                                    > Take it out for a spin and kick the tires some with simple programs
                                    first

                                    Steve;
                                    I will follow your advice and try to learn PseudoSam. Thanks
                                    for the push in the right direction.
                                    -mtgills.
                                  • mtgills
                                    ... until the ... another ... ever ... Cohen Lee and Dave; My apologies... there it is, right on the cover page of the Tiny Basic assembler listing. However,
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Apr 19, 2003
                                      --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Lee Hart <leeahart@e...> wrote:

                                      > Originally, it was "Technical Micro Systems Inc". They used TMSI for
                                      > short as an unofficial acronym. I was the chief engineer there
                                      until the
                                      > company folded in 1987. During the 6 months it took me to find
                                      another
                                      > job, I continued to service the company's customers privately, and
                                      > called myself "TMSI" (That's My Self and I). I've kept using TMSI
                                      ever
                                      > since as a one-person hobby business-in-the-basement.
                                      > --
                                      > Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
                                      > 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
                                      > Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
                                      > leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard
                                      Cohen

                                      Lee and Dave;
                                      My apologies... there it is, right on the cover page of
                                      the Tiny Basic assembler listing. However, it was nice to learn
                                      something of the history of the name, (and who owns it).

                                      -mtgills
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