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Re: [cosmacelf] 1802 Emulations

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  • Chris Elmquist
    Very interesting,
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 1, 2010
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      Very interesting,

      http://www.computer-refuge.org/bitsavers/pdf/xerox/parc/techReports/ISL-83-1_A_Retrospective_on_the_Dorado_A_High-Performance_Personal_Computer.pdf

      Lots of very new concepts in processor and system design deployed there--
      including scan path/boundary scan testing and debug.

      They do say though that the machine was mostly ECL rather than TTL-- with
      an instruction cycle of 60nS.

      cje

      On Thursday (12/31/2009 at 11:53PM -0600), Lee Hart wrote:
      > J.C. Wren wrote:
      > > I've been writing firmware for 2^5 years, and seen a lot of processors come
      > > and go. I looked at the Propellor when it first came out, but I couldn't
      > > get myself interested in it. Maybe something like the Propellor Starter Kit
      > > that cwardell2000 mentioned might be a way. It's probably that I couldn't
      > > find a use for it...
      >
      > One of my favorite computers was the Dorado, made by Xerox in the 1970's
      > as the the platform to run Smalltalk on. It had a microprogrammable CPU,
      > made with TTL chips. What was neat about it was that the instruction set
      > was not fixed; it was downloaded from disk to suit the application
      > program being run.
      >
      > This meant it could emulate all the different CPUs of the day at full
      > speed. It had emulations of the 8080, 8085, Z80, 6800, 6502, etc. I
      > don't know if there was one for the 1802, but it certainly could have
      > done it.
      >
      > More importantly, it could emulate the special *hardware* that various
      > computers had. It *became* a TRS-80, Apple II, IMSAI 8080, etc. I am
      > sure it could become an ELF or VIP as well, if someone wrote the code.
      >
      > The Propeller is the first modern chip I've seen that might be able to
      > perform this sort of trick.
      > --
      > Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
      > 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
      > Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
      > leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

      --
      Chris Elmquist
    • cwardell2000
      J.C. The propeller is a very novel device, I m not sure how well that will translate into any commercial success, but it does seem suited to emulating an 1802
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 2, 2010
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        J.C.

        The propeller is a very novel device, I'm not sure how well that will translate into any commercial success, but it does seem suited to emulating an 1802 based system. The 8 cogs running at 20Mips each seems really powerful at first glance, but the latency in communicating between the cogs and the need to bit-bang serial, spi, and i2c protocols takes some of the shine off really fast for many possible applications. An immediate example is that I'd like to allow for expanding the memory available for the 1802 emulator using SPI 32kb rams, but the need to bit-bang the SPI protocol makes it too slow to support emulating the elf at speeds high enough to support 1861 video emulation. The most pragmatic way to add RAM would be to use parallel interface SRAMS and a set of address latches which would use at least 12 of the 28 available I/O pins. I suppose I could create an SPI interface with an external shift register and a little support logic, but that will likely use just as many pins.

        Those things being said, I'm not aware of any other MCU or FPGA solution that has the potential to emulate and 1802 with 1861/1862 video and somewhere between 16 to 32kb of available ram in a two chip (counting the eeprom used by the prop) solution for a chipset price of around $10.00. Of course the world isn't waiting to buy thousands of 1802 emulators, so this isn't going to drive commercial success for the prop.

        As far as the the Propeller Education Kit, I think it's a really good value, but if you hava a nice breadboard and a nicely stocked part drawer you may opt for just buying the prop chip, crystal, eeprom, and a "prop plug" programming tool as the book is downloadable as a pdf.

        Chris Wardell






        --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "J.C. Wren" <jcwren@...> wrote:
        >
        > Brian,
        >
        > That sounds interesting. I also saw those references to the other
        > emulations.
        >
        > I've been writing firmware for 2^5 years, and seen a lot of processors come
        > and go. I looked at the Propellor when it first came out, but I couldn't
        > get myself interested in it. Maybe something like the Propellor Starter Kit
        > that cwardell2000 mentioned might be a way. It's probably that I couldn't
        > find a use for it, and as a viable processor for a mass-market product, I
        > have a hard time seeing a Propellor gaining traction. Maybe it will, or
        > has, like the PSoC has. Problem we find with parts like the PSoC is they're
        > waaaay too expensive for many applications. Paying for unused silicon isn't
        > cost effective when you can use a cheaper part. And it's my unresearched
        > belief that Parallax hasn't been around long enough to guarantee it's
        > continued existence. Cypress (PSoC), TI (MSP430), Atmel (AVR), Microchip
        > (PIC) and NXP (ARM) have all been around a long time, and I don't get too
        > concerned about them not being there tomorrow.
        >
        > Please feel free to correct me. I'm not disparaging the Propellor
        > architecture, just it's suitability as a processor for a long-term cost
        > effective processor for a mass market product.
        >
        > --jc
        >
        > Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
        >
        > On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Brian Little <bllittle@...>wrote:
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > I am quite active on the Propeller forum and not only is the ZiCog an
        > > active
        > > project there is also work on a 6502 emulator and possibly a 6800. I've
        > > been
        > > toying with the idea of a 1802 emulator. It should be feasible since the
        > > structure of the 1802 is simpler than the Z80 and 6502. It could run on
        > > just
        > > the Propeller with up to a 16k buffer for memory. It may not run at the
        > > same
        > > cycle speed but with the Propeller having 20 mips, it would be close. If I
        > > do work on one it probably have a hex keypad and a NTSC/PAL output with a
        > > possible version with a VGA output since the Propeller does NTSC, PAL and
        > > VGA quite easily.
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • J.C. Wren
        I ended up springing for 2 DIP prop chips, a prop plug, and the deal where you get the Propellor Demo Board + the ICC C compiler for $99. The Spin language
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 2, 2010
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          I ended up springing for 2 DIP prop chips, a prop plug, and the deal where
          you get the Propellor Demo Board + the ICC C compiler for $99. The Spin
          language seems OK, but I'm a C/asm/Forth guy at heart. And I see there are
          several Forth efforts for the Prop :) Had they not been running the deal
          for the C compiler, I'd have just gotten the 2 chips and the prop plug.

          It's kinda dumb they didn't set the Demo Board up to be able to be used as a
          programmer, however.

          --jc

          On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 2:28 PM, cwardell2000 <
          ctwardell@...> wrote:

          >
          >
          > J.C.
          >
          > The propeller is a very novel device, I'm not sure how well that will
          > translate into any commercial success, but it does seem suited to emulating
          > an 1802 based system. The 8 cogs running at 20Mips each seems really
          > powerful at first glance, but the latency in communicating between the cogs
          > and the need to bit-bang serial, spi, and i2c protocols takes some of the
          > shine off really fast for many possible applications. An immediate example
          > is that I'd like to allow for expanding the memory available for the 1802
          > emulator using SPI 32kb rams, but the need to bit-bang the SPI protocol
          > makes it too slow to support emulating the elf at speeds high enough to
          > support 1861 video emulation. The most pragmatic way to add RAM would be to
          > use parallel interface SRAMS and a set of address latches which would use at
          > least 12 of the 28 available I/O pins. I suppose I could create an SPI
          > interface with an external shift register and a little support logic, but
          > that will likely use just as many pins.
          >
          > Those things being said, I'm not aware of any other MCU or FPGA solution
          > that has the potential to emulate and 1802 with 1861/1862 video and
          > somewhere between 16 to 32kb of available ram in a two chip (counting the
          > eeprom used by the prop) solution for a chipset price of around $10.00. Of
          > course the world isn't waiting to buy thousands of 1802 emulators, so this
          > isn't going to drive commercial success for the prop.
          >
          > As far as the the Propeller Education Kit, I think it's a really good
          > value, but if you hava a nice breadboard and a nicely stocked part drawer
          > you may opt for just buying the prop chip, crystal, eeprom, and a "prop
          > plug" programming tool as the book is downloadable as a pdf.
          >
          > Chris Wardell
          >
          >
          > --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com <cosmacelf%40yahoogroups.com>, "J.C.
          > Wren" <jcwren@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Brian,
          > >
          > > That sounds interesting. I also saw those references to the other
          > > emulations.
          > >
          > > I've been writing firmware for 2^5 years, and seen a lot of processors
          > come
          > > and go. I looked at the Propellor when it first came out, but I couldn't
          > > get myself interested in it. Maybe something like the Propellor Starter
          > Kit
          > > that cwardell2000 mentioned might be a way. It's probably that I couldn't
          > > find a use for it, and as a viable processor for a mass-market product, I
          > > have a hard time seeing a Propellor gaining traction. Maybe it will, or
          > > has, like the PSoC has. Problem we find with parts like the PSoC is
          > they're
          > > waaaay too expensive for many applications. Paying for unused silicon
          > isn't
          > > cost effective when you can use a cheaper part. And it's my unresearched
          > > belief that Parallax hasn't been around long enough to guarantee it's
          > > continued existence. Cypress (PSoC), TI (MSP430), Atmel (AVR), Microchip
          > > (PIC) and NXP (ARM) have all been around a long time, and I don't get too
          > > concerned about them not being there tomorrow.
          > >
          > > Please feel free to correct me. I'm not disparaging the Propellor
          > > architecture, just it's suitability as a processor for a long-term cost
          > > effective processor for a mass market product.
          > >
          > > --jc
          > >
          > > Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
          > >
          > > On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Brian Little <bllittle@...>wrote:
          >
          > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > I am quite active on the Propeller forum and not only is the ZiCog an
          > > > active
          > > > project there is also work on a 6502 emulator and possibly a 6800. I've
          > > > been
          > > > toying with the idea of a 1802 emulator. It should be feasible since
          > the
          > > > structure of the 1802 is simpler than the Z80 and 6502. It could run on
          > > > just
          > > > the Propeller with up to a 16k buffer for memory. It may not run at the
          > > > same
          > > > cycle speed but with the Propeller having 20 mips, it would be close.
          > If I
          > > > do work on one it probably have a hex keypad and a NTSC/PAL output with
          > a
          > > > possible version with a VGA output since the Propeller does NTSC, PAL
          > and
          > > > VGA quite easily.
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >



          --
          --jc

          Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • cwardell2000
          jc, That sounds like a good deal. Assembly on the prop is pretty cool, you basically have 496 32 bit registers that hold both code and data. Self modifying
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 2, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            jc,

            That sounds like a good deal. Assembly on the prop is pretty cool, you basically have 496 32 bit registers that hold both code and data. Self modifying code seems to be the rule rather than the exception on this chip. Have fun.

            C.W.

            --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "J.C. Wren" <jcwren@...> wrote:
            >
            > I ended up springing for 2 DIP prop chips, a prop plug, and the deal where
            > you get the Propellor Demo Board + the ICC C compiler for $99. The Spin
            > language seems OK, but I'm a C/asm/Forth guy at heart. And I see there are
            > several Forth efforts for the Prop :) Had they not been running the deal
            > for the C compiler, I'd have just gotten the 2 chips and the prop plug.
            >
            > It's kinda dumb they didn't set the Demo Board up to be able to be used as a
            > programmer, however.
            >
            > --jc
            >
            > On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 2:28 PM, cwardell2000 <
            > ctwardell@...> wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > > J.C.
            > >
            > > The propeller is a very novel device, I'm not sure how well that will
            > > translate into any commercial success, but it does seem suited to emulating
            > > an 1802 based system. The 8 cogs running at 20Mips each seems really
            > > powerful at first glance, but the latency in communicating between the cogs
            > > and the need to bit-bang serial, spi, and i2c protocols takes some of the
            > > shine off really fast for many possible applications. An immediate example
            > > is that I'd like to allow for expanding the memory available for the 1802
            > > emulator using SPI 32kb rams, but the need to bit-bang the SPI protocol
            > > makes it too slow to support emulating the elf at speeds high enough to
            > > support 1861 video emulation. The most pragmatic way to add RAM would be to
            > > use parallel interface SRAMS and a set of address latches which would use at
            > > least 12 of the 28 available I/O pins. I suppose I could create an SPI
            > > interface with an external shift register and a little support logic, but
            > > that will likely use just as many pins.
            > >
            > > Those things being said, I'm not aware of any other MCU or FPGA solution
            > > that has the potential to emulate and 1802 with 1861/1862 video and
            > > somewhere between 16 to 32kb of available ram in a two chip (counting the
            > > eeprom used by the prop) solution for a chipset price of around $10.00. Of
            > > course the world isn't waiting to buy thousands of 1802 emulators, so this
            > > isn't going to drive commercial success for the prop.
            > >
            > > As far as the the Propeller Education Kit, I think it's a really good
            > > value, but if you hava a nice breadboard and a nicely stocked part drawer
            > > you may opt for just buying the prop chip, crystal, eeprom, and a "prop
            > > plug" programming tool as the book is downloadable as a pdf.
            > >
            > > Chris Wardell
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com <cosmacelf%40yahoogroups.com>, "J.C.
            > > Wren" <jcwren@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Brian,
            > > >
            > > > That sounds interesting. I also saw those references to the other
            > > > emulations.
            > > >
            > > > I've been writing firmware for 2^5 years, and seen a lot of processors
            > > come
            > > > and go. I looked at the Propellor when it first came out, but I couldn't
            > > > get myself interested in it. Maybe something like the Propellor Starter
            > > Kit
            > > > that cwardell2000 mentioned might be a way. It's probably that I couldn't
            > > > find a use for it, and as a viable processor for a mass-market product, I
            > > > have a hard time seeing a Propellor gaining traction. Maybe it will, or
            > > > has, like the PSoC has. Problem we find with parts like the PSoC is
            > > they're
            > > > waaaay too expensive for many applications. Paying for unused silicon
            > > isn't
            > > > cost effective when you can use a cheaper part. And it's my unresearched
            > > > belief that Parallax hasn't been around long enough to guarantee it's
            > > > continued existence. Cypress (PSoC), TI (MSP430), Atmel (AVR), Microchip
            > > > (PIC) and NXP (ARM) have all been around a long time, and I don't get too
            > > > concerned about them not being there tomorrow.
            > > >
            > > > Please feel free to correct me. I'm not disparaging the Propellor
            > > > architecture, just it's suitability as a processor for a long-term cost
            > > > effective processor for a mass market product.
            > > >
            > > > --jc
            > > >
            > > > Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
            > > >
            > > > On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Brian Little <bllittle@>wrote:
            > >
            > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > I am quite active on the Propeller forum and not only is the ZiCog an
            > > > > active
            > > > > project there is also work on a 6502 emulator and possibly a 6800. I've
            > > > > been
            > > > > toying with the idea of a 1802 emulator. It should be feasible since
            > > the
            > > > > structure of the 1802 is simpler than the Z80 and 6502. It could run on
            > > > > just
            > > > > the Propeller with up to a 16k buffer for memory. It may not run at the
            > > > > same
            > > > > cycle speed but with the Propeller having 20 mips, it would be close.
            > > If I
            > > > > do work on one it probably have a hex keypad and a NTSC/PAL output with
            > > a
            > > > > possible version with a VGA output since the Propeller does NTSC, PAL
            > > and
            > > > > VGA quite easily.
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > --
            > --jc
            >
            > Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • J.C. Wren
            One of the things that appeals to me is that I can have up to 7 serial ports ... much 2-wire serial ports (maybe 4-wire, if you don t need other I/O). On Sat,
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 2, 2010
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              One of the things that appeals to me is that I can have up to 7 serial ports
              :) And you can NEVER have too many serial ports. Granted, they're pretty
              much 2-wire serial ports (maybe 4-wire, if you don't need other I/O).

              On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 2:44 PM, cwardell2000 <
              ctwardell@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > jc,
              >
              > That sounds like a good deal. Assembly on the prop is pretty cool, you
              > basically have 496 32 bit registers that hold both code and data. Self
              > modifying code seems to be the rule rather than the exception on this chip.
              > Have fun.
              >
              > C.W.
              >
              >
              > --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com <cosmacelf%40yahoogroups.com>, "J.C.
              > Wren" <jcwren@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > I ended up springing for 2 DIP prop chips, a prop plug, and the deal
              > where
              > > you get the Propellor Demo Board + the ICC C compiler for $99. The Spin
              > > language seems OK, but I'm a C/asm/Forth guy at heart. And I see there
              > are
              > > several Forth efforts for the Prop :) Had they not been running the deal
              > > for the C compiler, I'd have just gotten the 2 chips and the prop plug.
              > >
              > > It's kinda dumb they didn't set the Demo Board up to be able to be used
              > as a
              > > programmer, however.
              > >
              > > --jc
              > >
              > > On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 2:28 PM, cwardell2000 <
              > > ctwardell@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > J.C.
              > > >
              > > > The propeller is a very novel device, I'm not sure how well that will
              > > > translate into any commercial success, but it does seem suited to
              > emulating
              > > > an 1802 based system. The 8 cogs running at 20Mips each seems really
              > > > powerful at first glance, but the latency in communicating between the
              > cogs
              > > > and the need to bit-bang serial, spi, and i2c protocols takes some of
              > the
              > > > shine off really fast for many possible applications. An immediate
              > example
              > > > is that I'd like to allow for expanding the memory available for the
              > 1802
              > > > emulator using SPI 32kb rams, but the need to bit-bang the SPI protocol
              > > > makes it too slow to support emulating the elf at speeds high enough to
              > > > support 1861 video emulation. The most pragmatic way to add RAM would
              > be to
              > > > use parallel interface SRAMS and a set of address latches which would
              > use at
              > > > least 12 of the 28 available I/O pins. I suppose I could create an SPI
              > > > interface with an external shift register and a little support logic,
              > but
              > > > that will likely use just as many pins.
              > > >
              > > > Those things being said, I'm not aware of any other MCU or FPGA
              > solution
              > > > that has the potential to emulate and 1802 with 1861/1862 video and
              > > > somewhere between 16 to 32kb of available ram in a two chip (counting
              > the
              > > > eeprom used by the prop) solution for a chipset price of around $10.00.
              > Of
              > > > course the world isn't waiting to buy thousands of 1802 emulators, so
              > this
              > > > isn't going to drive commercial success for the prop.
              > > >
              > > > As far as the the Propeller Education Kit, I think it's a really good
              > > > value, but if you hava a nice breadboard and a nicely stocked part
              > drawer
              > > > you may opt for just buying the prop chip, crystal, eeprom, and a "prop
              > > > plug" programming tool as the book is downloadable as a pdf.
              > > >
              > > > Chris Wardell
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com <cosmacelf%40yahoogroups.com><cosmacelf%
              > 40yahoogroups.com>, "J.C.
              >
              > > > Wren" <jcwren@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Brian,
              > > > >
              > > > > That sounds interesting. I also saw those references to the other
              > > > > emulations.
              > > > >
              > > > > I've been writing firmware for 2^5 years, and seen a lot of
              > processors
              > > > come
              > > > > and go. I looked at the Propellor when it first came out, but I
              > couldn't
              > > > > get myself interested in it. Maybe something like the Propellor
              > Starter
              > > > Kit
              > > > > that cwardell2000 mentioned might be a way. It's probably that I
              > couldn't
              > > > > find a use for it, and as a viable processor for a mass-market
              > product, I
              > > > > have a hard time seeing a Propellor gaining traction. Maybe it will,
              > or
              > > > > has, like the PSoC has. Problem we find with parts like the PSoC is
              > > > they're
              > > > > waaaay too expensive for many applications. Paying for unused silicon
              > > > isn't
              > > > > cost effective when you can use a cheaper part. And it's my
              > unresearched
              > > > > belief that Parallax hasn't been around long enough to guarantee it's
              > > > > continued existence. Cypress (PSoC), TI (MSP430), Atmel (AVR),
              > Microchip
              > > > > (PIC) and NXP (ARM) have all been around a long time, and I don't get
              > too
              > > > > concerned about them not being there tomorrow.
              > > > >
              > > > > Please feel free to correct me. I'm not disparaging the Propellor
              > > > > architecture, just it's suitability as a processor for a long-term
              > cost
              > > > > effective processor for a mass market product.
              > > > >
              > > > > --jc
              > > > >
              > > > > Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
              > > > >
              > > > > On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Brian Little <bllittle@>wrote:
              > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I am quite active on the Propeller forum and not only is the ZiCog
              > an
              > > > > > active
              > > > > > project there is also work on a 6502 emulator and possibly a 6800.
              > I've
              > > > > > been
              > > > > > toying with the idea of a 1802 emulator. It should be feasible
              > since
              > > > the
              > > > > > structure of the 1802 is simpler than the Z80 and 6502. It could
              > run on
              > > > > > just
              > > > > > the Propeller with up to a 16k buffer for memory. It may not run at
              > the
              > > > > > same
              > > > > > cycle speed but with the Propeller having 20 mips, it would be
              > close.
              > > > If I
              > > > > > do work on one it probably have a hex keypad and a NTSC/PAL output
              > with
              > > > a
              > > > > > possible version with a VGA output since the Propeller does NTSC,
              > PAL
              > > > and
              > > > > > VGA quite easily.
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --
              > > --jc
              > >
              > > Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >



              --
              --jc

              Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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