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Super Basic

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  • Marcel van Tongeren
    Hi All, I have a question about the Super Basic which is stored in the files section of this group, it is marked as Ron Cenker s Super BASIC for Quest Super
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 11, 2009
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      Hi All,

      I have a question about the Super Basic which is stored in the files section of this group, it is marked as 'Ron Cenker's Super BASIC for Quest Super ELF'.

      I finally got it running on my emulator and actually think this one is very interesting as it is very similar to the COMX, Pecom and Telmac 600 basic.

      Now my question is does anyone have any documentation/manual for this basic? I would love to get my hands on a scanned copy..... Main thing I can't figure out is how the CSAVE/CLOAD works, sometimes CLOAD does 'something' but CSAVE always comes back with ERR CODE 462; wathever that means....

      Also I read something about 'Super Basic 5' is that similar to this one?
      Is that available somewhere or are there still copyrights owned by someone?

      Appreciate your help!
      Cheers, Marcel.
    • Steve Gemeny
      Marcel, When we undertook the project of recovering this version from old, noisy cassette tape back in ~2002 or 03 we were not able to locate any version of
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 11, 2009
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        Marcel,

        When we undertook the project of recovering this version from old, noisy cassette tape back in ~2002 or 03 we were not able to locate any version of the manual other than "one in a box in a garage in a collection of old Quest stuff" that never got distributed...

        If you (or anyone else) find a copy I'd love access to it. Actually I'm sure there are (or were) several people on the list who wouldfeel the same.

        Be well,
        Steve


        --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel van Tongeren" <marcel.v.tongeren@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi All,
        >
        > I have a question about the Super Basic which is stored in the files section of this group, it is marked as 'Ron Cenker's Super BASIC for Quest Super ELF'.
        >
        > I finally got it running on my emulator and actually think this one is very interesting as it is very similar to the COMX, Pecom and Telmac 600 basic.
        >
        > Now my question is does anyone have any documentation/manual for this basic? I would love to get my hands on a scanned copy..... Main thing I can't figure out is how the CSAVE/CLOAD works, sometimes CLOAD does 'something' but CSAVE always comes back with ERR CODE 462; wathever that means....
        >
        > Also I read something about 'Super Basic 5' is that similar to this one?
        > Is that available somewhere or are there still copyrights owned by someone?
        >
        > Appreciate your help!
        > Cheers, Marcel.
        >
      • rileym65
        Super Basic 5 would still fall under copyright, so would the other Super Basic as well, whether anybody would do anything about it is doubtful, but they are
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 11, 2009
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          Super Basic 5 would still fall under copyright, so would the other Super Basic as well, whether anybody would do anything about it is doubtful, but they are still under copyright.

          On another note, there is a version of Super Basic 5 floating around that somebody had modifed to save/load on Elf/OS systems.
          Mike

          --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel van Tongeren" <marcel.v.tongeren@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi All,
          >
          > I have a question about the Super Basic which is stored in the files section of this group, it is marked as 'Ron Cenker's Super BASIC for Quest Super ELF'.
          >
          > I finally got it running on my emulator and actually think this one is very interesting as it is very similar to the COMX, Pecom and Telmac 600 basic.
          >
          > Now my question is does anyone have any documentation/manual for this basic? I would love to get my hands on a scanned copy..... Main thing I can't figure out is how the CSAVE/CLOAD works, sometimes CLOAD does 'something' but CSAVE always comes back with ERR CODE 462; wathever that means....
          >
          > Also I read something about 'Super Basic 5' is that similar to this one?
          > Is that available somewhere or are there still copyrights owned by someone?
          >
          > Appreciate your help!
          > Cheers, Marcel.
          >
        • Robert DiPippo, k1wyc
          I know some of you would not like to hear this, but a copyright is a copyright. I have a full copy in new condition of the Super Basic 5 manual, but will not
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 11, 2009
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            I know some of you would not like to hear this, but a copyright is a copyright.

            I have a full copy in new condition of the Super Basic 5 manual, but will not make a copy or sent it to anyone unless I can be sure that the copyright has expired.

            I also have several copies on casssette in ELF/OS and Super Elf format. My Netronics Elf is still working fine.

            For CLOAD. The command is CLOAD,C,# # = the copy number on the cassette. Example CLOAD,C,4 would load the 4th copy on the cassette. If you leave the # out then CLOAD will load the first item it finds.

            For CSAVE. The command is CSAVE,C

            Sorry.

            Bob
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: rileym65
            To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 6:33 PM
            Subject: [cosmacelf] Re: Super Basic


            Super Basic 5 would still fall under copyright, so would the other Super Basic as well, whether anybody would do anything about it is doubtful, but they are still under copyright.

            On another note, there is a version of Super Basic 5 floating around that somebody had modifed to save/load on Elf/OS systems.
            Mike

            --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel van Tongeren" <marcel.v.tongeren@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi All,
            >
            > I have a question about the Super Basic which is stored in the files section of this group, it is marked as 'Ron Cenker's Super BASIC for Quest Super ELF'.
            >
            > I finally got it running on my emulator and actually think this one is very interesting as it is very similar to the COMX, Pecom and Telmac 600 basic.
            >
            > Now my question is does anyone have any documentation/manual for this basic? I would love to get my hands on a scanned copy..... Main thing I can't figure out is how the CSAVE/CLOAD works, sometimes CLOAD does 'something' but CSAVE always comes back with ERR CODE 462; wathever that means....
            >
            > Also I read something about 'Super Basic 5' is that similar to this one?
            > Is that available somewhere or are there still copyrights owned by someone?
            >
            > Appreciate your help!
            > Cheers, Marcel.
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Steve Gemeny
            On the topic of the Quest Super Basic Marcel is asking about, the person to contact for copyright release is Paul Messenger. Paul was the engineer responsible
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 11, 2009
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              On the topic of the Quest Super Basic Marcel is asking about, the person to contact for copyright release is Paul Messenger.

              Paul was the engineer responsible for the Super Elf by Quest, has been a member of the board in the past, and is a wealth of knowledge on the topic in spite of his angst about the dissolution of Quest Electronics. Paul retains all of the original documentation for the Super Elf and has been willing to release copies to folks that ask respectfully and respect his copyright. T

              he last known email address for him a couple of years ago was paulm@.... At that time Paul was in poor health and had a large collection of Quest Electronics "residue" in storage.

              The issue of Copyright respect is quite important to him, but he is the answer if he is so inclined.

              All the best,

              Steve

              BTW, I stand with Robert on this too.


              --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "Robert DiPippo, k1wyc" <bobk1wyc@...> wrote:
              >
              > I know some of you would not like to hear this, but a copyright is a copyright.
              >
              > I have a full copy in new condition of the Super Basic 5 manual, but will not make a copy or sent it to anyone unless I can be sure that the copyright has expired.
              >
              > I also have several copies on casssette in ELF/OS and Super Elf format. My Netronics Elf is still working fine.
              >
              > For CLOAD. The command is CLOAD,C,# # = the copy number on the cassette. Example CLOAD,C,4 would load the 4th copy on the cassette. If you leave the # out then CLOAD will load the first item it finds.
              >
              > For CSAVE. The command is CSAVE,C
              >
              > Sorry.
              >
              > Bob
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: rileym65
              > To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 6:33 PM
              > Subject: [cosmacelf] Re: Super Basic
              >
              >
              > Super Basic 5 would still fall under copyright, so would the other Super Basic as well, whether anybody would do anything about it is doubtful, but they are still under copyright.
              >
              > On another note, there is a version of Super Basic 5 floating around that somebody had modifed to save/load on Elf/OS systems.
              > Mike
              >
              > --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel van Tongeren" <marcel.v.tongeren@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi All,
              > >
              > > I have a question about the Super Basic which is stored in the files section of this group, it is marked as 'Ron Cenker's Super BASIC for Quest Super ELF'.
              > >
              > > I finally got it running on my emulator and actually think this one is very interesting as it is very similar to the COMX, Pecom and Telmac 600 basic.
              > >
              > > Now my question is does anyone have any documentation/manual for this basic? I would love to get my hands on a scanned copy..... Main thing I can't figure out is how the CSAVE/CLOAD works, sometimes CLOAD does 'something' but CSAVE always comes back with ERR CODE 462; wathever that means....
              > >
              > > Also I read something about 'Super Basic 5' is that similar to this one?
              > > Is that available somewhere or are there still copyrights owned by someone?
              > >
              > > Appreciate your help!
              > > Cheers, Marcel.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Marcel van Tongeren
              Hi Again, Steve, Bob and Mike thanks for your quick help/comments! I have tried to email Paul; hope he will get back to me..... ... Thanks a mill, however
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 12, 2009
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                Hi Again,

                Steve, Bob and Mike thanks for your quick help/comments!
                I have tried to email Paul; hope he will get back to me.....

                > For CLOAD. The command is CLOAD,C,# # = the copy number on the cassette. Example CLOAD,C,4 would load the 4th copy on the cassette. If you leave the # out then CLOAD will load the first item it finds.
                >
                > For CSAVE. The command is CSAVE,C
                Thanks a mill, however still no luck with this CSAVE,C it still gives the same ERR CODE 462??

                Is the above valid for both Super Basic 5 and Super Basic?
                What are the main differences between Super Basic 5 and Super Basic?

                Does anyone know if the cassette 'HW' is using the Q flag for save and EF3 for load? or another EF?

                What about the video chip supported? I have this running on an MC6845 emulation but as far as I can see it doesn't actually set any of the video registers so in a real machine this wouldn't work.... So does anyone know on which chip this is suppose to work?

                Or should it work with a vt terminal??

                Sorry loads of questions.....

                Cheers, Marcel.
              • Marcel van Tongeren
                ... Got it to work now! Problem was caused by wrong use of EF4.... and my version just uses CSAVE and CLOAD ... Ok, this one I can now answer myself: it is
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 12, 2009
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                  > Thanks a mill, however still no luck with this CSAVE,C it still gives
                  > the same ERR CODE 462??
                  Got it to work now! Problem was caused by wrong use of EF4.... and my version just uses CSAVE and CLOAD

                  > Does anyone know if the cassette 'HW' is using the Q flag for save
                  > and EF3 for load? or another EF?
                  Ok, this one I can now answer myself: it is indeed Q/EF3

                  I could still use some help with the video chip!

                  Cheers, Marcel.
                • rileym65
                  The Super Basic 5 that I have is just using serial output to a vt100. Mike
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 12, 2009
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                    The Super Basic 5 that I have is just using serial output to a vt100.
                    Mike

                    --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel van Tongeren" <marcel.v.tongeren@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Thanks a mill, however still no luck with this CSAVE,C it still gives
                    > > the same ERR CODE 462??
                    > Got it to work now! Problem was caused by wrong use of EF4.... and my version just uses CSAVE and CLOAD
                    >
                    > > Does anyone know if the cassette 'HW' is using the Q flag for save
                    > > and EF3 for load? or another EF?
                    > Ok, this one I can now answer myself: it is indeed Q/EF3
                    >
                    > I could still use some help with the video chip!
                    >
                    > Cheers, Marcel.
                    >
                  • Steve Gemeny
                    OK so I did some digging... This question of I/O was nagging at me as though I d lived through some of it before. It turns out that the I/O behavior of Super
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 12, 2009
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                      OK so I did some digging...

                      This question of I/O was nagging at me as though I'd lived through some of it before.

                      It turns out that the I/O behavior of Super Basic was a bit of a vexing problem back in late Feb of 2003. When SB starts up it is looking for specific user input to decide if I/O is serial or parallel, detect baud rate, etc (could perhaps even include some kind of video).

                      Without going into the details, I'd point you in the direction of messages in the high 700s with specific interest to 776, 789 and 795.

                      Good Luck,

                      Steve

                      --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, rileym65 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > The Super Basic 5 that I have is just using serial output to a vt100.
                      > Mike
                      >
                      > --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel van Tongeren" <marcel.v.tongeren@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > Thanks a mill, however still no luck with this CSAVE,C it still gives
                      > > > the same ERR CODE 462??
                      > > Got it to work now! Problem was caused by wrong use of EF4.... and my version just uses CSAVE and CLOAD
                      > >
                      > > > Does anyone know if the cassette 'HW' is using the Q flag for save
                      > > > and EF3 for load? or another EF?
                      > > Ok, this one I can now answer myself: it is indeed Q/EF3
                      > >
                      > > I could still use some help with the video chip!
                      > >
                      > > Cheers, Marcel.
                      > >
                      >
                    • Steve Gemeny
                      And, with a bit more digging. I found in one of myown posts a potential answer for the video output from Super Basic on the Quest Super Elf... I even posted
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 12, 2009
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                        And, with a bit more digging. I found in one of myown posts a potential answer for the video output from Super Basic on the Quest Super Elf...

                        I even posted links to two scans of an add for Super Basic on my own web site that are still active (my gray matter must be fading faaster than my hair color)

                        Enjoy the part on the Vidio output.

                        Steve

                        Here are the links to the Super Basic Catalog images:
                        Page 1 http://mywebpages.comcast.net/aa3nm/SuperBasic1.jpg
                        <http://mywebpages.comcast.net/aa3nm/SuperBasic1.jpg>
                        Page 2 http://mywebpages.comcast.net/aa3nm/SuperBasic2.jpg
                        <http://mywebpages.comcast.net/aa3nm/SuperBasic2.jpg>





                        --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, rileym65 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > The Super Basic 5 that I have is just using serial output to a vt100.
                        > Mike
                        >
                        > --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel van Tongeren" <marcel.v.tongeren@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > Thanks a mill, however still no luck with this CSAVE,C it still gives
                        > > > the same ERR CODE 462??
                        > > Got it to work now! Problem was caused by wrong use of EF4.... and my version just uses CSAVE and CLOAD
                        > >
                        > > > Does anyone know if the cassette 'HW' is using the Q flag for save
                        > > > and EF3 for load? or another EF?
                        > > Ok, this one I can now answer myself: it is indeed Q/EF3
                        > >
                        > > I could still use some help with the video chip!
                        > >
                        > > Cheers, Marcel.
                        > >
                        >
                      • Marcel van Tongeren
                        ... very interesting thanks! Just need to find out what this Super Elf Video board is, Paul mentioned something called S100..... I also emailed with Paul about
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 13, 2009
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                          >
                          > Here are the links to the Super Basic Catalog images:
                          > Page 1 http://mywebpages.comcast.net/aa3nm/SuperBasic1.jpg
                          > <http://mywebpages.comcast.net/aa3nm/SuperBasic1.jpg>
                          > Page 2 http://mywebpages.comcast.net/aa3nm/SuperBasic2.jpg
                          > <http://mywebpages.comcast.net/aa3nm/SuperBasic2.jpg>
                          >
                          very interesting thanks! Just need to find out what this Super Elf Video board is, Paul mentioned something called S100.....

                          I also emailed with Paul about copyrights and manuals. He is now considering selling some of his stuff and possibly getting someone to scan some of the documentation and maybe get his 8" disks on current media!

                          I do get the feeling he is rather upset with our lack of consideration for copyrights, so whatever we do lets try to comply to his wishes from now on! Note he is not a member or this board anymore.....

                          On a more positive note he stated: 'I am getting ready to sell off the rest of PCB repairable super elf boards cases plug ins and scan the manuals by the end of this year.'

                          He has some collectors items, like the first superelf motherboard version 0.0, cosmac ELF (2 magazine) series addressed to Paul that started the entire project etc.

                          I'm not interested myself in any hardware but I guess you guys are! I will ask him how he will proceed with his sale.....

                          Also if you have any documentation scans he is willing to 'approve' these as long as they are according to his requirements (good quality, reviewed by Paul and mention his name, address, email etc).

                          Cheers, Marcel.
                        • Marcel van Tongeren
                          Hi Again, Yes I now got both the serial and Super Elf Video board version started! If you have IN pressed during startup serial mode is selected otherwise
                          Message 12 of 22 , Aug 13, 2009
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                            Hi Again,

                            Yes I now got both the serial and 'Super Elf Video board' version started!

                            If you have 'IN' pressed during startup serial mode is selected otherwise the video board mode will be started, also the serial mode uses OUT5 for vtEnable and EF2 which took me a while to figure out....

                            Still searching for the video chip number used in the Super Elf Video board and/or the S100.....

                            Cheers, Marcel.
                          • rileym65
                            Video chip may have been the 6847. I looked at my emulator last night and I have a startup for it to run Super Basic 5 with the 6847 emulation. Mike
                            Message 13 of 22 , Aug 13, 2009
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                              Video chip may have been the 6847. I looked at my emulator last night and I have a startup for it to run Super Basic 5 with the 6847 emulation.
                              Mike

                              --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel van Tongeren" <marcel.v.tongeren@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Again,
                              >
                              > Yes I now got both the serial and 'Super Elf Video board' version started!
                              >
                              > If you have 'IN' pressed during startup serial mode is selected otherwise the video board mode will be started, also the serial mode uses OUT5 for vtEnable and EF2 which took me a while to figure out....
                              >
                              > Still searching for the video chip number used in the Super Elf Video board and/or the S100.....
                              >
                              > Cheers, Marcel.
                              >
                            • Marcel van Tongeren
                              ... Thanks Mike, yeah I have consider that as well; BUT the 6847 only has 32*16 characters, SB uses 64*16 as far as I can see. Otherwise emulation via mc6847
                              Message 14 of 22 , Aug 13, 2009
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                                --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, rileym65 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Video chip may have been the 6847. I looked at my emulator last night and I have a startup for it to run Super Basic 5 with the 6847 emulation.
                                > Mike
                                Thanks Mike, yeah I have consider that as well; BUT the 6847 only has 32*16 characters, SB uses 64*16 as far as I can see. Otherwise emulation via mc6847 or mc6845 works with a few 'hacks'. So I do expect either one of the 2 was used or a chip very similar....

                                Cheers, Marcel.
                              • rileym65
                                The other possibility is the mc6845, When I looked at my emulator source, this is the chip that is being emulated (incomplete i might add, looks like only
                                Message 15 of 22 , Aug 13, 2009
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                                  The other possibility is the mc6845, When I looked at my emulator source, this is the chip that is being emulated (incomplete i might add, looks like only implemented enough of it for SB5). This chip can produce timing for larger character matrices.

                                  Mike

                                  --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel van Tongeren" <marcel.v.tongeren@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, rileym65 <no_reply@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Video chip may have been the 6847. I looked at my emulator last night and I have a startup for it to run Super Basic 5 with the 6847 emulation.
                                  > > Mike
                                  > Thanks Mike, yeah I have consider that as well; BUT the 6847 only has 32*16 characters, SB uses 64*16 as far as I can see. Otherwise emulation via mc6847 or mc6845 works with a few 'hacks'. So I do expect either one of the 2 was used or a chip very similar....
                                  >
                                  > Cheers, Marcel.
                                  >
                                • Marcel van Tongeren
                                  ... Yes you are probably right, that is also the one I run the emulation on now. I just find it strange the software doesn t set any of the mc6845 registers. I
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Aug 13, 2009
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                                    --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, rileym65 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > The other possibility is the mc6845, When I looked at my emulator source, this is the chip that is being emulated (incomplete i might add, looks like only implemented enough of it for SB5). This chip can produce timing for larger character matrices.
                                    >
                                    > Mike
                                    Yes you are probably right, that is also the one I run the emulation on now. I just find it strange the software doesn't set any of the mc6845 registers. I have a fairly complete (not 100% either....) mc6845 emulation as the COMX 80 column card uses that chip as well but the COMX software sets all the registers to set the screen size and timing. Now the only thing I can guess here is that the register setting was done via HW......

                                    Marcel.
                                  • rileym65
                                    Or it just used the default mode the chip started in, or could have been some monitor program that set up the chip before loading SB?? I am not sure what the
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Aug 13, 2009
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                                      Or it just used the default mode the chip started in, or could have been some monitor program that set up the chip before loading SB?? I am not sure what the default mode of the 6845 is.
                                      Mike

                                      --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "Marcel van Tongeren" <marcel.v.tongeren@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, rileym65 <no_reply@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > The other possibility is the mc6845, When I looked at my emulator source, this is the chip that is being emulated (incomplete i might add, looks like only implemented enough of it for SB5). This chip can produce timing for larger character matrices.
                                      > >
                                      > > Mike
                                      > Yes you are probably right, that is also the one I run the emulation on now. I just find it strange the software doesn't set any of the mc6845 registers. I have a fairly complete (not 100% either....) mc6845 emulation as the COMX 80 column card uses that chip as well but the COMX software sets all the registers to set the screen size and timing. Now the only thing I can guess here is that the register setting was done via HW......
                                      >
                                      > Marcel.
                                      >
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