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Re: Quest Cosmac ELF board Schematic?

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  • Stewart
    ... It might be a good thing to acquaint newcomers with exactly who Paul Messinger is, why he holds the Quest copyrights, and more importantly why his feelings
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 27, 2008
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      --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "tony" <waterwingz2@...> wrote:
      >
      > IANAL, but as far as copyright goes, it only covers the exact
      > schematic as printed by the copyright holder. If you redraw or
      > recreate the schematic with a CAD package and don't simply reproduce
      > the original document then you are not infringing on anyone's
      > copyright. In other words, the copyright holder does not own the
      > circuit design, only the printed form of the drawing.
      >
      > Tony

      It might be a good thing to acquaint newcomers with exactly who Paul
      Messinger is, why he holds the Quest copyrights, and more importantly
      why his feelings should possibly count for something with us. Paul is
      the engineer who was responsible for the bulk of the design work on
      the Quest machines and salvaged at his own expense much of what was
      materially left of the company after its demise, armloads of
      manuscript docs, one-of-a-kind prototype machines, boxes of chips,
      stacks of boards, etc. In addition, he is intimately familiar with
      most other 1802 applications and the design intricacies of all of
      Quest's competition. His career and expertise far exceeds simply the
      Quest efforts. He was for instance engineer in overall charge of the
      systems for the Hubbell. He may seem a bit of a curmudgeon it is
      true, but in his defense he and his wife both have serious health
      issues and he has some very bitter memories of the collapse of Quest,
      a company he put his heart and soul into, and whose demise was none of
      his fault. But he remains an absolute goldmine of anecdotes and
      information of the pioneering days of the 1802 and is one of our last
      real living icons of this era. He continues to love the 1802 and
      believes in it to this day, and his passionate feelings about the
      processor and his countless memories associated with his place at the
      forefront of its use make him extremely and justifiably sensitive to
      being approached in a light or cavalier manner about it, particularly
      if he is in some pain or discomfort or worried about his wife. I have
      myself always found Paul to be a wonderful man to deal with in person,
      and I feel we are deeply priviledged to have his occasional visits on
      our little List, one of the true leaders in the early use of the RCA
      1802 for both personal computing and for its applications in space and
      the highest scientific endeavors. There are many instances on this
      List when he patiently sat at the keyboard and did his best to answer
      the most pointed and precise questions about the Quest boards, despite
      perhaps being in considerable discomfort and surely having more
      pressing and serious things to attend to. Just my tuppence from
      knowing something of the man and from meeting him a number of times in
      person. I regret that many of you here have not had the immense
      pleasure of a face to face meeting with him and in getting to know him
      a bit better. He is an exceptional individual, absolutely unique, and
      a brilliant intellect. -Stewart Marshall
    • Al W,
      Stewart, What you have said about Paul is very compassionate and understanding but all I ve ever seen from him is what was displayed on his postings.
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 28, 2008
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        Stewart,

        What you have said about Paul is very compassionate and understanding but all I've ever
        seen from him is what was displayed on his postings. Personally I'm all out of blank-
        checks for rudeness from "curmudgeons" and anecdotes about the old Quest company
        only go so far with me to excuse it. Respect is a two-way street.

        My very first online contact with him was when I answered his request to translate some
        Quest data from his old 8" CP/M floppy disks. Things seemed to go okay at first and we
        agreed on doing a few at a time. Immediately after that the issue of copyrights came up. I
        have real "day-job" and don't have enough time for it let alone running issues like this by
        my lawyer so I politely backed away from the copy request. He was very sensitive about
        "his babies" and the operation was getting too complicated.

        Later he "scorched my ears" a few times when I suggested ways of correcting minor
        problems with the Super Elf and watched as he admonished others for various comments. I
        tried to not post inflammatory replies to him but he always found something to home-in
        on. He was very intolerant for the thoughts of others.

        I think that we have spent way-too-much time on this topic it has had a noticeable impact
        on the once lively and very interesting technical discussions that we used to have about
        1802's in general.

        I have signed off-and-on-again with this group a few times in the past when discussions
        weren't fun anymore and it looks like it's about time for another break for me. In some
        ways I wish I had never "rescued" the two Quest Super Elfs from the junkboxes at
        hamfests. Along with the fun with the junk came a boatload of crap.

        :o)

        al winfrey
        ....



        We have also watched as he has dangled some of his old Quest production "booty" in front
        of various members



        >
        > It might be a good thing to acquaint newcomers with exactly who Paul
        > Messinger is, why he holds the Quest copyrights, and more importantly
        > why his feelings should possibly count for something with us. Paul is
        > the engineer who was responsible for the bulk of the design work on
        > the Quest machines and salvaged at his own expense much of what was
        > materially left of the company after its demise, armloads of
        > manuscript docs, one-of-a-kind prototype machines, boxes of chips,
        > stacks of boards, etc. In addition, he is intimately familiar with
        > most other 1802 applications and the design intricacies of all of
        > Quest's competition. His career and expertise far exceeds simply the
        > Quest efforts. He was for instance engineer in overall charge of the
        > systems for the Hubbell. He may seem a bit of a curmudgeon it is
        > true, but in his defense he and his wife both have serious health
        > issues and he has some very bitter memories of the collapse of Quest,
        > a company he put his heart and soul into, and whose demise was none of
        > his fault. But he remains an absolute goldmine of anecdotes and
        > information of the pioneering days of the 1802 and is one of our last
        > real living icons of this era. He continues to love the 1802 and
        > believes in it to this day, and his passionate feelings about the
        > processor and his countless memories associated with his place at the
        > forefront of its use make him extremely and justifiably sensitive to
        > being approached in a light or cavalier manner about it, particularly
        > if he is in some pain or discomfort or worried about his wife. I have
        > myself always found Paul to be a wonderful man to deal with in person,
        > and I feel we are deeply priviledged to have his occasional visits on
        > our little List, one of the true leaders in the early use of the RCA
        > 1802 for both personal computing and for its applications in space and
        > the highest scientific endeavors. There are many instances on this
        > List when he patiently sat at the keyboard and did his best to answer
        > the most pointed and precise questions about the Quest boards, despite
        > perhaps being in considerable discomfort and surely having more
        > pressing and serious things to attend to. Just my tuppence from
        > knowing something of the man and from meeting him a number of times in
        > person. I regret that many of you here have not had the immense
        > pleasure of a face to face meeting with him and in getting to know him
        > a bit better. He is an exceptional individual, absolutely unique, and
        > a brilliant intellect. -Stewart Marshall
        >
      • Andrew Wasson
        ... Nicely said Stewart. I haven t chatted with Paul (via email) for quite some time now but it sure was great to ask questions of someone who was behind the
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 28, 2008
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          > It might be a good thing to acquaint newcomers with exactly who Paul
          > Messinger is, why he holds the Quest copyrights, and more importantly...

          Nicely said Stewart.

          I haven't chatted with Paul (via email) for quite some time now but it
          sure was great to ask questions of someone who was behind the scenes
          and responsible for the computer kit I wanted when I was a kid.

          It's a shame he hasn't been on board for a while... He posted some
          pretty interesting articles about the end of days at Quest as well as
          some really informative technical info about Quest expansion boards
          and the super monitor.

          And yes Al he is particular/sensitive about how Quest materials are
          presented. It's a touchy subject... I didn't really follow the
          conversations you and he had about copying the disks or Quest Elf
          improvements so I can't really comment but I'm sure those Quest Elfs
          you saved are just that more valuable for your rescue efforts.

          If you don't want them, I'll take em and add them to the 4 I've got ;o)

          Andrew
        • Steve Gemeny
          I think I feel like piling on with Andrew on this… Stewart, very nicely put and well worth saying. It was several years ago when I talked to Paul on the
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 28, 2008
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            I' think I feel like piling on with Andrew on this…

            Stewart, very nicely put and well worth saying.

            It was several years ago when I talked to Paul on the phone. It was
            a pleasure to kick around the old days of Quest and to compare
            perspectives from our different vantage points – mine from outside
            Quest as a drooling aspiring engineer, with his from inside as a
            seasoned designer fighting management for the betterment of the
            customers…

            I was also aware (to some limited extent) of his health issues and
            tend to make allowances for people as I hope they will of me. I
            think I may even have had discussions with him about getting a few
            parts for my Super ELF, but assumed that they would most likely not
            end up becoming real for one or another reason.

            I may even have crossed Paul at some point on the copying of parts
            of a manual to help another member repair his system, but figured;
            since we had both paid for an original manual and his had been lost,
            he still had paid for the rights to one copy and my providing parts
            of my copy for him was within reasonable use. Oh well, we live and
            learn… I was wrong in Paul's mind and it wouldn't have hurt me to
            have asked.

            Still, I feel I'm better for having run into him, for having talked
            to him and shared our ELF memories a bit. I hope he is well, wish
            him well, respect him for what he has given me and so many others
            through his designs, and would overlook any "curmudgeonly-ness"
            because hey, we all have bad days…

            Paul is a good guy, has a few hot buttons (I know I have my share)
            and deserves more, perhaps, than he has gotten for his efforts.

            All the best (73) to all,

            Steve Gemeny
            AA3NM
          • Chris Wardell
            Very well said Stewart. I had the pleasure of communcating with Paul a couple of years ago via email when I purchased an AIM 65 from him that he had from his
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 28, 2008
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              Very well said Stewart. I had the pleasure of communcating with
              Paul a couple of years ago via email when I purchased an AIM 65 from
              him that he had from his days at Quest. He was concerned that I was
              really interested in the AIM 65 and not just looking for something
              that I could turn around on Ebay. I convinced him that I really
              wanted the machine, I had always wanted one since back in the late
              70's when I also built an ELF II. He sold me the AIM 65 for far
              less than he could have sold it on Ebay and I really appreciate that.
              If the time ever comes that I cannot provide the AIM 65 a proper
              home, I will find someone that will appreciate it, I will not sell
              it on Ebay.

              Chris Wardell


              --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "Stewart" <stew_m_3@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "tony" <waterwingz2@> wrote:
              > >
              > > IANAL, but as far as copyright goes, it only covers the exact
              > > schematic as printed by the copyright holder. If you redraw or
              > > recreate the schematic with a CAD package and don't simply
              reproduce
              > > the original document then you are not infringing on anyone's
              > > copyright. In other words, the copyright holder does not own
              the
              > > circuit design, only the printed form of the drawing.
              > >
              > > Tony
              >
              > It might be a good thing to acquaint newcomers with exactly who
              Paul
              > Messinger is, why he holds the Quest copyrights, and more
              importantly
              > why his feelings should possibly count for something with us.
              Paul is
              > the engineer who was responsible for the bulk of the design work on
              > the Quest machines and salvaged at his own expense much of what was
              > materially left of the company after its demise, armloads of
              > manuscript docs, one-of-a-kind prototype machines, boxes of chips,
              > stacks of boards, etc. In addition, he is intimately familiar with
              > most other 1802 applications and the design intricacies of all of
              > Quest's competition. His career and expertise far exceeds simply
              the
              > Quest efforts. He was for instance engineer in overall charge of
              the
              > systems for the Hubbell. He may seem a bit of a curmudgeon it is
              > true, but in his defense he and his wife both have serious health
              > issues and he has some very bitter memories of the collapse of
              Quest,
              > a company he put his heart and soul into, and whose demise was
              none of
              > his fault. But he remains an absolute goldmine of anecdotes and
              > information of the pioneering days of the 1802 and is one of our
              last
              > real living icons of this era. He continues to love the 1802 and
              > believes in it to this day, and his passionate feelings about the
              > processor and his countless memories associated with his place at
              the
              > forefront of its use make him extremely and justifiably sensitive
              to
              > being approached in a light or cavalier manner about it,
              particularly
              > if he is in some pain or discomfort or worried about his wife. I
              have
              > myself always found Paul to be a wonderful man to deal with in
              person,
              > and I feel we are deeply priviledged to have his occasional visits
              on
              > our little List, one of the true leaders in the early use of the
              RCA
              > 1802 for both personal computing and for its applications in space
              and
              > the highest scientific endeavors. There are many instances on this
              > List when he patiently sat at the keyboard and did his best to
              answer
              > the most pointed and precise questions about the Quest boards,
              despite
              > perhaps being in considerable discomfort and surely having more
              > pressing and serious things to attend to. Just my tuppence from
              > knowing something of the man and from meeting him a number of
              times in
              > person. I regret that many of you here have not had the immense
              > pleasure of a face to face meeting with him and in getting to know
              him
              > a bit better. He is an exceptional individual, absolutely unique,
              and
              > a brilliant intellect. -Stewart Marshall
              >
            • James Tadlock
              I don t have the rest of the magazine, but I have the 6 Elf articles that were duly torn out and saved. A little weather beaten and my personal notes in the
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 29, 2008
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                I don't have the rest of the magazine, but I have the 6 Elf articles that were duly torn out and saved. A little weather beaten and my personal notes in the margins. My oh my how time flys.

                coolcash3030 <coolcash3030@...> wrote: It all depends on your starting point and what you're referring
                to...when the ELF was first on the cover of Pop Electronics I was the
                ripe old age of 14 (I am sorry I did not save those 2 issues!!!!) ...
                I am now the ripe young age of 45 and I have yet to build any ELF
                having tinkered with everything in between since then. You can say I
                am the 45-year-old ELF Virgin!!! LOL!

                Nevertheless I am glad to see classic technology revived!

                Chris

                --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "saturn5tony" <saturn5tony@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Look, if you built an ELF which is now 30+ YEARS!!! AGO then yes you
                > are an OLD TIMER!!! in terms of technology you are ancient. If you
                > just like the old stuff and are fairly young then NO you are not an
                > old timer. Boy are people so touchy about thier age......
                > Not me!
                >
                > --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, didio4@ wrote:
                > >
                > > Who are you calling an "Old Timer"?????
                > >
                > > Not me!
                > >
                > >
                > > In a message dated 3/25/2008 9:37:37 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                > > saturn5tony@ writes:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > No, I'd love to see the schematic!! After all seeing the 1802 in a
                > > different configuration might be interesting. Who is gonna copy
                > and
                > > sell the thing anyways. Its only interesting to us old timers that
                > love
                > > to see how we did stuff 30 years ago.
                > >
                > > --- In _cosmacelf@yahoogroucosmac_
                > (mailto:cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com) ,
                > > "Gary Giles" <buzzgiles@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Would anyone have a problem if I were to post a schematic of a
                > Quest
                > > > Cosmac ELF board?
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > 73 Gary, KF9CM
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video
                > on AOL
                > > Home.
                > > (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?
                > ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >






                ---------------------------------
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • rileym65
                As far is my stuff is concerned, feel free to copy it all you want so long as credit to what i have done is not removed, nor is any of my work used for profit
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 31, 2008
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                  As far is my stuff is concerned, feel free to copy it all you want so
                  long as credit to what i have done is not removed, nor is any of my
                  work used for profit without my permission, For personal use, copy it
                  all you want.
                  Mike

                  --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Armstrong" <bob@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com <mailto:cosmacelf%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                  > "Aurel Boisvert" <aurel@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Gary,
                  > >
                  > > Is this schematic for the early Quest Cosmac Elf,
                  > > the one similar to the Cosmac Elf published in Popular Electronics in
                  > 1976.
                  > >
                  > > If it is would it be possible to email me a copy of it.
                  > > Thanks
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > If you want a schematic for any COSMAC Elf version, then the Elf 2000
                  > schematics are in the back of its manual,
                  >
                  > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Downloads/Elf2k.pdf
                  >
                  > Also the schematics for the several Elf versions that Mike Riley has
                  made
                  > are on his page,
                  >
                  > http://www.elf-emulation.com/hardware.html
                  >
                  > The Elf 2000 manual, et al, is copyrighted under the GNU FDL. I'm
                  not sure
                  > about Mike's stuff.
                  >
                  > Bob Armstrong
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
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