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Re: [cosmacelf] Re: surplus MSI/88e

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  • Philip Pemberton
    In message ... At this point in time, I d love to get a CDP1861, if only so I ve got a spare for my COSMAC
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 1 12:40 PM
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      In message <60E9EE56-B365-11D8-A333-000A95B38680@...>
      Mark Graybill <saundby@...> wrote:

      > The only quote I've gotten recently on 1861's was from the UK, however.
      > But at £49 and a minimum order of 5 pieces they were a bit steep for
      > me.
      At this point in time, I'd love to get a CDP1861, if only so I've got a spare
      for my COSMAC Elf. In the meantime, if the 1861 dies, I'm up the creek in a
      chicken-wire canoe.

      Later.
      --
      Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
      philpem@... | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
      http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
      ... Scotty! Beam me aboard! Aye sir! Will a 2x4 do?
    • Robert L. Doerr
      ... If you really need one I believe that the old RCA Studio II game console uses that chip. You might be able to pickup one of those for a fair price and
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 1 1:10 PM
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        > In message <60E9EE56-B365-11D8-A333-000A95B38680@...>
        > Mark Graybill <saundby@...> wrote:
        >
        >>The only quote I've gotten recently on 1861's was from the UK, however.
        >>But at £49 and a minimum order of 5 pieces they were a bit steep for
        >>me.
        >
        > At this point in time, I'd love to get a CDP1861, if only so I've got a spare
        > for my COSMAC Elf. In the meantime, if the 1861 dies, I'm up the creek in a
        > chicken-wire canoe.

        If you really need one I believe that the old RCA Studio II game
        console uses that chip. You might be able to pickup one of those
        for a fair price and take out that chip.

        Regards,

        Robert
      • mc71de
        Hi all, ... Yes, that s true. Anyone interested in a CDP1864 might want to look for an MPT-02 console or clone thereof (NOT the -03, that s a totally different
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 2 12:32 AM
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          Hi all,

          --- "Robert L. Doerr" <rdoerr@b...> wrote:

          > [...] the old RCA Studio II game console uses that chip.

          Yes, that's true. Anyone interested in a CDP1864 might want to look
          for an MPT-02 console or clone thereof (NOT the -03, that's a
          totally different beast!) in PAL video standard- not sure if they
          also had NTSC?

          > You might be able to pickup one of those
          > for a fair price and take out that chip.

          True... if i were not for comments like 'NO international bidders
          please, I will only ship within the United States due to the ability
          to track packages' (btw he should read the terms of international
          shippin and tracking...) or the slightly higher shipping cost-
          Studio-II's are almost non-existant outside the U.S., and the PAL
          clones are as rare as something can be. You easily come close to the
          UKP50 quote anyway...

          Max (also looking for one of these rare chips...)
        • Philip Pemberton
          In message ... What s even more hen s teeth is a low-cost logic analyser. I ve seen HP 1652Bs going on Ebay.com fairly cheaply, but
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 2 5:35 AM
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            In message <c9jvq4+r5pn@...>
            "mc71de" <mc71@...> wrote:

            > True... if i were not for comments like 'NO international bidders
            > please, I will only ship within the United States due to the ability
            > to track packages' (btw he should read the terms of international
            > shippin and tracking...) or the slightly higher shipping cost-
            > Studio-II's are almost non-existant outside the U.S., and the PAL
            > clones are as rare as something can be. You easily come close to the
            > UKP50 quote anyway...
            What's even more "hen's teeth" is a low-cost logic analyser. I've seen HP
            1652Bs going on Ebay.com fairly cheaply, but almost all of them had "No
            international bidders, too heavy to ship" at the bottom of the item listing.
            I saw one on ebay UK a while back - it got sold to a "breaker" - someone who
            buys working test equipment and then rips it apart. I expect the boards from
            the analyser he bought (for well over what I've seen them sell for through
            the major test equipment dealers) to appear on ebay at some point in the next
            month. *sigh*.
            An oscilloscope is useful, but totally hopeless for watching the WRITE_EN
            line and the data bus at the same time :-/

            Later.
            --
            Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
            philpem@... | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
            http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
            ... Another nearly-full box of Smarties!!
          • Mark Graybill
            ... It depends on what you want, and I ve seen a fair few that provide international shipping (as well as listings from several different countries.) If you re
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 2 1:01 PM
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              > What's even more "hen's teeth" is a low-cost logic analyser. I've seen
              > HP
              > 1652Bs going on Ebay.com fairly cheaply, but almost all of them had "No
              > international bidders, too heavy to ship" at the bottom of the item
              > listing.
              > I saw one on ebay UK a while back - it got sold to a "breaker" -
              > someone who
              > buys working test equipment and then rips it apart. I expect the
              > boards from
              > the analyser he bought (for well over what I've seen them sell for
              > through
              > the major test equipment dealers) to appear on ebay at some point in
              > the next
              > month. *sigh*.

              It depends on what you want, and I've seen a fair few that provide
              international shipping (as well as listings from several different
              countries.) If you're willing to settle for an old 1600A, you can get a
              real bargain, and it perfectly adequate for just about any retro
              project and most AVR/PIC/etc.-type microcontroller projects.

              There's one HP 1652B logic analyser listing for the UK up on EBay now,
              I didn't look at it in detail, though.

              > An oscilloscope is useful, but totally hopeless for watching the
              > WRITE_EN
              > line and the data bus at the same time :-/
              >
              Add a 47K pulldown resistor to the /WE line for a start. My experience
              is that it's needed, whether you're using 2102's or new ICs. Without it
              there may not be a long or low enough pulse on the downstream side of
              the Memory Protect diode-OR to ensure reliable writes.

              A dual-trace storage scope won't let you watch the entire data bus, but
              you can watch one bit and /WE. Though I know it's nothing like having a
              logic analyzer.

              When I built my first Elf I thought I was in fat city because I had
              both a regular VOM as well as a digital VOM that I had added a Hold
              feature to, not to mention a buddy who had a scope, and would be
              willing to even haul it over to my place. I guess it's a good thing the
              only problem I had with my first Elf was a cold solder joint.

              -Mark G.
            • Lee Hart
              ... There are a couple ways to do this. First, somewhere around here I have an HP-1601A logic analyzer that I bought for $20. It is a plug-in for an HP-180A
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 2 5:09 PM
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                Mark Graybill wrote:
                > What's even more "hen's teeth" is a low-cost logic analyser.

                There are a couple ways to do this. First, somewhere around here I have
                an HP-1601A logic analyzer that I bought for $20. It is a plug-in for an
                HP-180A series oscilloscope. The 'scope died a few years ago, and I
                haven't found anyone who wants to fix it. I have the manuals, but since
                I already have another 'scope, I'm not likely to get around to fixiing
                it. I'd sell them both for the cost of shipping.

                The other thing is that an ELF is a *dandy* logic analyzer itself! The
                1802's DMA mode can be used to capture 8 bits of data. You just need to
                cobble up a trigger circuit to start and stop the DMA when the right
                events occur. Basically, you use a 2nd 1802 board as a logic analyzer to
                watch what the first one is doing!
                --
                "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
                citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
                has!" -- Margaret Mead
                --
                Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
              • sbirdasn
                There s also BITSCOPE, a budget (or even roll your own if you like) A/D and logic (8-bits) capture-to-PC interface card. Link: http://www.bitscope.com/ Maybe
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 2 11:05 PM
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                  There's also BITSCOPE, a budget (or even roll your own if you like)
                  A/D and logic (8-bits) capture-to-PC interface card.

                  Link: http://www.bitscope.com/

                  Maybe $300-400 is a bit much for your idea of "budget", but it's not
                  bad compared to $4-6K (or more) for "real" test gear.

                  If you are really desperate, you could cobble together some SRAM and
                  counters. An EPROM/PAL-based state machine could be made to control
                  the capture. The hard part is the data extraction/display. That can
                  get kind of painful if you are going to roll your own logic capture
                  system.

                  You could also use one of the more modern microcontrollers to get
                  access to the capture RAM, then talk to a PC or even drive a pair of
                  DAC's to generate a usable display on a normal analog scope.

                  Sounds like a great application for a low end DSP like Analog Devices
                  ADSP-21XX family. I remember seeing a 21XX demo board that had a demo
                  program that displayed a vector display on a scope that was pretty
                  neat to watch (ala Windows NT's OpenGL "rotating text in space"
                  screen saver).

                  Really, there's a lot of ways of going about logic capture on the
                  cheap. It takes a bit of work to do though.

                  Then there's the PC approach for the display side. Getting a
                  usable/easy to manipulate user interface for software trace will
                  probably take a bunch of work to do as well.

                  Lee's idea of ELF DMA isn't bad either. And you could extend it by
                  adding parallel SRAM to capture address bus and other control
                  signals, but would then require some extra switching circuitry to get
                  access to each segment of the captured words.

                  In my mind, the real work is not the capture, but the control/display
                  of the captured data.

                  Personally, I'm happy that I even have a 2-channel analog scope on my
                  bench. It's quite a step up from a cheap Radio Shack VOM and a logic
                  probe that I started with in the old days. True, I do wish that I had
                  a hardware emulator with full software trace capabilities, but it's
                  just not in the cards for now.

                  Shoot, many of the modern microcontroller evaluation
                  board/budget "emulators" don't have software trace that is of much
                  use; Most of the time it's only simulation mode (not real time). Or,
                  the trace depth is so short that it's essentially useless. I used one
                  bondout-based emulator for an 8051 variant that only traced as far
                  back as the last branch! Gee, in 8051 code, that's like eight or ten
                  instructions back if you're lucky! :0

                  Good luck in your hunt for logic analyzer nirvana.

                  Tony.
                • Mark Graybill
                  ... Saelig also has inexpensive 8-bit and 16-bit USB-based logic analyzers (a bit over $200 and $300 with clips): http://www.saelig.com/ANT16.htm
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 3 12:44 PM
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                    On Jun 2, 2004, at 11:05 PM, sbirdasn wrote:

                    > There's also BITSCOPE, a budget (or even roll your own if you like)
                    > A/D and logic (8-bits) capture-to-PC interface card.
                    >
                    > Link: http://www.bitscope.com/
                    >
                    > Maybe $300-400 is a bit much for your idea of "budget", but it's not
                    > bad compared to $4-6K (or more) for "real" test gear.

                    Saelig also has inexpensive 8-bit and 16-bit USB-based logic analyzers
                    (a bit over $200 and $300 with clips):
                    http://www.saelig.com/ANT16.htm
                    http://www.saelig.com/ANT8.htm

                    There are probably some other similar products elsewhere. There's also
                    SoftLA, an old DOS program that B.G. Micro still sells for about $30,
                    add your own hardware to your PC parallel port for inputs. It saves the
                    trouble of writing the software, and allows 16 channels on
                    bidirectional ports. And being an "old DOS program" is no judgement on
                    its capability, a friend of mine who is also an
                    instrumentation/controls engineer swears by it.

                    Personally I prefer instruments that don't require a PC attached, but
                    PC-based instruments can be awfully cheap if you consider the PC
                    already paid for.

                    Lee's approach of using an Elf is pretty neat. To give yourself more
                    "bandwidth" you can reduce the operating frequency of the Elf under
                    study. When I first build one up, I usually start by clocking it off a
                    signal generator at 100KHz or so to make it easier to watch what's
                    going on (I've gone as low as 1Hz or clocked it off a switch, too.)

                    -Mark G.
                  • Robert L. Doerr
                    Well in case anyone really needs one I believe I still have one of the old Heathkit PC based logic analyzers that had an ISA card and it s own pod complete
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 3 12:53 PM
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                      Well in case anyone really needs one I believe I still have one of
                      the old Heathkit PC based logic analyzers that had an ISA card and
                      it's own pod complete with the software still sealed in the box. I
                      came across it the other day while cleaning up the basement. If
                      there is any interest send me an e-mail at rdoerr@... so
                      we don't clog up the list with any off topic stuff. In the meantime
                      i'll see if I can track down all the specs and model number for it.

                      Regards,

                      Robert

                      Mark Graybill wrote:

                      > On Jun 2, 2004, at 11:05 PM, sbirdasn wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >>There's also BITSCOPE, a budget (or even roll your own if you like)
                      >>A/D and logic (8-bits) capture-to-PC interface card.
                      >>
                      >>Link: http://www.bitscope.com/
                      >>
                      >>Maybe $300-400 is a bit much for your idea of "budget", but it's not
                      >>bad compared to $4-6K (or more) for "real" test gear.
                      >
                      >
                      > Saelig also has inexpensive 8-bit and 16-bit USB-based logic analyzers
                      > (a bit over $200 and $300 with clips):
                      > http://www.saelig.com/ANT16.htm
                      > http://www.saelig.com/ANT8.htm
                      >
                      > There are probably some other similar products elsewhere. There's also
                      > SoftLA, an old DOS program that B.G. Micro still sells for about $30,
                      > add your own hardware to your PC parallel port for inputs. It saves the
                      > trouble of writing the software, and allows 16 channels on
                      > bidirectional ports. And being an "old DOS program" is no judgement on
                      > its capability, a friend of mine who is also an
                      > instrumentation/controls engineer swears by it.
                      >
                      > Personally I prefer instruments that don't require a PC attached, but
                      > PC-based instruments can be awfully cheap if you consider the PC
                      > already paid for.
                      >
                      > Lee's approach of using an Elf is pretty neat. To give yourself more
                      > "bandwidth" you can reduce the operating frequency of the Elf under
                      > study. When I first build one up, I usually start by clocking it off a
                      > signal generator at 100KHz or so to make it easier to watch what's
                      > going on (I've gone as low as 1Hz or clocked it off a switch, too.)
                      >
                      > -Mark G.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ========================================================
                      > Visit the COSMAC ELF website at http://www.cosmacelf.com
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      --
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                      Robert L. Doerr (MCNE, MCSE, A+)
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                      e-mail: <rdoerr@...>

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