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Re: [cosmacelf] Problem with my Elf2k CF Memory Card

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  • Craig Ledbetter
    Hi Mark, Thanks for responding. The CF card is inserted directly into the CF slot on the elf2k disk card. The green light lights up, and blinks fine. I wish
    Message 1 of 13 , May 21, 2013
      Hi Mark,
      Thanks for responding.
      The CF card is inserted directly into the CF slot on the elf2k disk card.
      The green light lights up, and blinks fine.
      I wish there was a test program that would verify that I can write and read back what was written to the card.

      Anybody have any other ideas?

      Craig Ledbetter

      From: Mark G Thomas <mark@...>
      Reply-To: <cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Tuesday 21 May 2013 03:43
      To: "cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com" <cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: Re: [cosmacelf] Problem with my Elf2k CF Memory Card

      Hi,

      On May 20, 2013, at 2:45 PM, "Craig Ledbetter" <craigaledbetter@...> wrote:

      I am having a continual problem with my CF Memory Card.



      By any any chance is your card in a cf-IDE adapter, or is it directly on the elf disk card?

      The IDE adapters require power, either via a separate header or in some cases if you hard-wire a jumper on the elf2k (like I did) to IDE pin 20 in combination with an adapter that you have confirmed supports it. 

      I had similar results to what you describe when I did not have the cf-IDE adapter suitably powered. LEDs on the adapter even lit from leached power from the bus, but operation was unreliable, depending on which CF card I happened to try.

       

      I can’t get elf2kos 0.2.8 to work for me no matter what I do.

      I have used both a 512MB Transdata CF card, as well as two different old Canon 8MB cards.

      When quick formatting the 512, the OS gives me the following Breakpoint error:

       

      BREAKPOINT  @ XP=30 D=07 DF=1

      R0=0000 R1=0000 R2=1FF8 R3=FC6C

      R4=FA7B R5=FA8D R6=FEEC R7=0000

      R8=0000 R9=8819 RA=0071 RB=FFFE

      RC=336E RD=FC01 RE=1100 RF=C207

       

      A full format gives an led readout of the address FCFB, and FF on the data bus.

       

      The 8MB cards format sometimes, and will allow me to do everything up until Installing Binaries. It will copy a few files and then hang!

       

      What could I check to see what the problem could be?

       

       

      Craig Ledbetter

      Ireland

    • David G Williams
      Hi Craig, Just one suggestion - check that the tantalum capacitor near the CF card socket is OK. I have heard of people having problems with the current a CF
      Message 2 of 13 , May 22, 2013
        Hi Craig,
         
                        Just one suggestion - check that the tantalum capacitor near the CF card socket is OK. I have heard of people having problems with the current a CF card draws to write a block of flash & a tantalum capacitor on the power lines right by the socket may solve the problem you are seeing.
         
        I also wonder whether you might have access to an oscilloscope so could actually see what is happening to the power rail at the CF socket.
         
         If you consider that the +5V regulator is on the main Elf2K board & then the power has to be fed via possibly several headers before getting to the CF card, you can see the potential for voltage drops if current spikes are drawn. Perhaps this is why the person who used an IDE to CF socket adaptor with external power into the adaptor solved their unreliability problems.
         
        These adaptors are quiite cheap in Ebay and may give you a solution.
         
        David Williams
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 5:02 PM
        Subject: Re: [cosmacelf] Problem with my Elf2k CF Memory Card

         

        Hi Mark,
        Thanks for responding.
        The CF card is inserted directly into the CF slot on the elf2k disk card.
        The green light lights up, and blinks fine.
        I wish there was a test program that would verify that I can write and read back what was written to the card.

        Anybody have any other ideas?

        Craig Ledbetter

        From: Mark G Thomas <mark@...>
        Reply-To: <cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Tuesday 21 May 2013 03:43
        To: "cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com" <cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: Re: [cosmacelf] Problem with my Elf2k CF Memory Card

        Hi,

        On May 20, 2013, at 2:45 PM, "Craig Ledbetter" <craigaledbetter@...> wrote:

        I am having a continual problem with my CF Memory Card.



        By any any chance is your card in a cf-IDE adapter, or is it directly on the elf disk card?

        The IDE adapters require power, either via a separate header or in some cases if you hard-wire a jumper on the elf2k (like I did) to IDE pin 20 in combination with an adapter that you have confirmed supports it. 

        I had similar results to what you describe when I did not have the cf-IDE adapter suitably powered. LEDs on the adapter even lit from leached power from the bus, but operation was unreliable, depending on which CF card I happened to try.

        I can’t get elf2kos 0.2.8 to work for me no matter what I do.

        I have used both a 512MB Transdata CF card, as well as two different old Canon 8MB cards.

        When quick formatting the 512, the OS gives me the following Breakpoint error:

        BREAKPOINT  @ XP=30 D=07 DF=1

        R0=0000 R1=0000 R2=1FF8 R3=FC6C

        R4=FA7B R5=FA8D R6=FEEC R7=0000

        R8=0000 R9=8819 RA=0071 RB=FFFE

        RC=336E RD=FC01 RE=1100 RF=C207

        A full format gives an led readout of the address FCFB, and FF on the data bus.

        The 8MB cards format sometimes, and will allow me to do everything up until Installing Binaries. It will copy a few files and then hang!

        What could I check to see what the problem could be?

        Craig Ledbetter

        Ireland

      • joshbensadon
        A recent post about a tantalum capacitor across the power lines reminds me of a recent problem. I thought the low ESR of a tantalum capacitor would suffice as
        Message 3 of 13 , May 22, 2013
          A recent post about a tantalum capacitor across the power lines reminds me of a recent problem. I thought the low ESR of a tantalum capacitor would suffice as a decoupling capacitor for an 8M Flash memory chip, but after a lot of head scratching (when the circuit did not work) I found out (the hard way) that you still need a 0.1uF decoupling capacitor.

          I don't know all the rules about decoupling capacitors. But since it can't hurt, I've been in the habit of adding extra capacitors even on existing circuits that are acting intermittent.

          FYI, the one rule about decoupling capacitors I do know, is that the capacitor must be as close to the VCC and GND lines of every chip. I just solder the capacitor on top of the chip directly to these pins.

          I believe decoupling capacitors should be the Ceramic type, but I'm not an expert in all the various types of capacitors, so I'll leave this for discussion.

          :)J




          --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "David G Williams" <davidg.williams@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Craig,
          >
          > Just one suggestion - check that the tantalum capacitor near the CF card socket is OK. I have heard of people having problems with the current a CF card draws to write a block of flash & a tantalum capacitor on the power lines right by the socket may solve the problem you are seeing.
          >
          > I also wonder whether you might have access to an oscilloscope so could actually see what is happening to the power rail at the CF socket.
          >
          > If you consider that the +5V regulator is on the main Elf2K board & then the power has to be fed via possibly several headers before getting to the CF card, you can see the potential for voltage drops if current spikes are drawn. Perhaps this is why the person who used an IDE to CF socket adaptor with external power into the adaptor solved their unreliability problems.
          >
          > These adaptors are quiite cheap in Ebay and may give you a solution.
          >
          > David Williams
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Craig Ledbetter
          > To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 5:02 PM
          > Subject: Re: [cosmacelf] Problem with my Elf2k CF Memory Card
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi Mark,
          > Thanks for responding.
          > The CF card is inserted directly into the CF slot on the elf2k disk card.
          > The green light lights up, and blinks fine.
          > I wish there was a test program that would verify that I can write and read back what was written to the card.
          >
          >
          > Anybody have any other ideas?
          >
          >
          > Craig Ledbetter
          >
          >
          > From: Mark G Thomas <mark@...>
          > Reply-To: <cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com>
          > Date: Tuesday 21 May 2013 03:43
          > To: "cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com" <cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: Re: [cosmacelf] Problem with my Elf2k CF Memory Card
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          >
          > On May 20, 2013, at 2:45 PM, "Craig Ledbetter" <craigaledbetter@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > I am having a continual problem with my CF Memory Card.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > By any any chance is your card in a cf-IDE adapter, or is it directly on the elf disk card?
          >
          >
          > The IDE adapters require power, either via a separate header or in some cases if you hard-wire a jumper on the elf2k (like I did) to IDE pin 20 in combination with an adapter that you have confirmed supports it.
          >
          >
          > I had similar results to what you describe when I did not have the cf-IDE adapter suitably powered. LEDs on the adapter even lit from leached power from the bus, but operation was unreliable, depending on which CF card I happened to try.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > I can't get elf2kos 0.2.8 to work for me no matter what I do.
          >
          > I have used both a 512MB Transdata CF card, as well as two different old Canon 8MB cards.
          >
          > When quick formatting the 512, the OS gives me the following Breakpoint error:
          >
          >
          >
          > BREAKPOINT @ XP=30 D=07 DF=1
          >
          > R0=0000 R1=0000 R2=1FF8 R3=FC6C
          >
          > R4=FA7B R5=FA8D R6=FEEC R7=0000
          >
          > R8=0000 R9=8819 RA=0071 RB=FFFE
          >
          > RC=336E RD=FC01 RE=1100 RF=C207
          >
          >
          >
          > A full format gives an led readout of the address FCFB, and FF on the data bus.
          >
          >
          >
          > The 8MB cards format sometimes, and will allow me to do everything up until Installing Binaries. It will copy a few files and then hang!
          >
          >
          >
          > What could I check to see what the problem could be?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Craig Ledbetter
          >
          > Ireland
          >
        • Lee Hart
          ... All capacitors have resistance as well as inductance. At different frequencies, different aspects of the capacitor take precedence. At low frequencies they
          Message 4 of 13 , May 22, 2013
            On 5/22/2013 7:37 AM, joshbensadon wrote:
            > A recent post about a tantalum capacitor across the power lines reminds me of a recent problem. I thought the low ESR of a tantalum capacitor would suffice as a decoupling capacitor for an 8M Flash memory chip, but after a lot of head scratching (when the circuit did not work) I found out (the hard way) that you still need a 0.1uF decoupling capacitor.
            >
            > I don't know all the rules about decoupling capacitors. But since it can't hurt, I've been in the habit of adding extra capacitors even on existing circuits that are acting intermittent.
            >
            > FYI, the one rule about decoupling capacitors I do know, is that the capacitor must be as close to the VCC and GND lines of every chip. I just solder the capacitor on top of the chip directly to these pins.
            >
            > I believe decoupling capacitors should be the Ceramic type, but I'm not an expert in all the various types of capacitors, so I'll leave this for discussion.

            All capacitors have resistance as well as inductance. At different
            frequencies, different aspects of the capacitor take precedence. At low
            frequencies they are (of course) capacitive. At high frequencies, the
            inductance takes over and they become *inductive*! At their
            self-resonant frequency right between the two, they are resistive.

            If you plot the capacitor's impedance (apparent resistance) versus
            frequency, you get a graph like this (view with a fixed width font like
            Courier):

            impedance (ohms) versus frequency for an electrolytic capacitor
            1000 | \ /
            100 | \ /
            10 | \ /
            1 | \ /
            .1 | \/
            .01 |_________________frequency (Hz)
            1 100 10k 1M 100M

            This would be the typical graph of an electrolytic capacitor. Notice the
            low self-resonant frequency. At frequencies much above the audio range,
            it's not really a capacitor any more.

            Tantalums have less capacitance, so they don't make good 60Hz power
            supply filters. But they also have less inductance and much less
            resistance. Thus, they work better as filters at high frequencies (up to
            1 MHz or so).

            impedance (ohms) versus frequency for a tantalum capacitor
            1000 | \ /
            100 | \ /
            10 | \ /
            1 | \ /
            .1 | \ /
            .01 |_________\/______frequency (Hz)
            1 100 10k 1M 100M

            Ceramic capacitors have still less capacitance, but even lower
            resistance, and far less inductance.

            impedance (ohms) versus frequency for a ceramic capacitor

            100 | \ /
            10 | \ /
            1 | \ /
            .1 | \ /
            .01 | \ /
            .001 |____________\/______frequency (Hz)
            1 100 10k 1M 100M

            However, hundreds of different "ceramics" are used in ceramic
            capacitors, and they have a huge range of characteristics. The common
            ones are COG, NPO, X7R, and Z5U. COG and NPO are the best for very high
            frequencies, X7R for general use, and Z5U is poor enough to behave much
            like tantalum. There are also weird formulations that are even worse
            than electrolytics. For example, I have some tiny 10uF Y5V ceramics that
            are less than 0.1" on a side -- their performance is *worse* than a 10uf
            electrolytic!
            --
            The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there
            before. -- Roy Spence
            --
            Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
          • joshbensadon
            Hi Lee, Thanks for the added info. I always knew about electrolytics acting like inductor coils, not hard to see when it s a bunch of foil coiled up. But I
            Message 5 of 13 , May 22, 2013
              Hi Lee,

              Thanks for the added info. I always knew about electrolytics acting like inductor coils, not hard to see when it's a bunch of foil coiled up. But I never thought of tantalum or ceramic acting that way. I guess they are like politicians. If the price/frequency is high enough, they will look and act the other way.

              I see NPO written a lot, thought it was a standard for those capacitors, I guess I just never read the fine print to learn it's the material composition. I used to think all ceramics were created equally... guess not. I know there's even more differences between mylar, mica, paper, polyester & air capacitors.

              Joke:
              It seems like people are willing to make capacitors out of anything that doesn't conduct!

              :)J






              --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:
              >
              > On 5/22/2013 7:37 AM, joshbensadon wrote:
              > > A recent post about a tantalum capacitor across the power lines reminds me of a recent problem. I thought the low ESR of a tantalum capacitor would suffice as a decoupling capacitor for an 8M Flash memory chip, but after a lot of head scratching (when the circuit did not work) I found out (the hard way) that you still need a 0.1uF decoupling capacitor.
              > >
              > > I don't know all the rules about decoupling capacitors. But since it can't hurt, I've been in the habit of adding extra capacitors even on existing circuits that are acting intermittent.
              > >
              > > FYI, the one rule about decoupling capacitors I do know, is that the capacitor must be as close to the VCC and GND lines of every chip. I just solder the capacitor on top of the chip directly to these pins.
              > >
              > > I believe decoupling capacitors should be the Ceramic type, but I'm not an expert in all the various types of capacitors, so I'll leave this for discussion.
              >
              > All capacitors have resistance as well as inductance. At different
              > frequencies, different aspects of the capacitor take precedence. At low
              > frequencies they are (of course) capacitive. At high frequencies, the
              > inductance takes over and they become *inductive*! At their
              > self-resonant frequency right between the two, they are resistive.
              >
              > If you plot the capacitor's impedance (apparent resistance) versus
              > frequency, you get a graph like this (view with a fixed width font like
              > Courier):
              >
              > impedance (ohms) versus frequency for an electrolytic capacitor
              > 1000 | \ /
              > 100 | \ /
              > 10 | \ /
              > 1 | \ /
              > .1 | \/
              > .01 |_________________frequency (Hz)
              > 1 100 10k 1M 100M
              >
              > This would be the typical graph of an electrolytic capacitor. Notice the
              > low self-resonant frequency. At frequencies much above the audio range,
              > it's not really a capacitor any more.
              >
              > Tantalums have less capacitance, so they don't make good 60Hz power
              > supply filters. But they also have less inductance and much less
              > resistance. Thus, they work better as filters at high frequencies (up to
              > 1 MHz or so).
              >
              > impedance (ohms) versus frequency for a tantalum capacitor
              > 1000 | \ /
              > 100 | \ /
              > 10 | \ /
              > 1 | \ /
              > .1 | \ /
              > .01 |_________\/______frequency (Hz)
              > 1 100 10k 1M 100M
              >
              > Ceramic capacitors have still less capacitance, but even lower
              > resistance, and far less inductance.
              >
              > impedance (ohms) versus frequency for a ceramic capacitor
              >
              > 100 | \ /
              > 10 | \ /
              > 1 | \ /
              > .1 | \ /
              > .01 | \ /
              > .001 |____________\/______frequency (Hz)
              > 1 100 10k 1M 100M
              >
              > However, hundreds of different "ceramics" are used in ceramic
              > capacitors, and they have a huge range of characteristics. The common
              > ones are COG, NPO, X7R, and Z5U. COG and NPO are the best for very high
              > frequencies, X7R for general use, and Z5U is poor enough to behave much
              > like tantalum. There are also weird formulations that are even worse
              > than electrolytics. For example, I have some tiny 10uF Y5V ceramics that
              > are less than 0.1" on a side -- their performance is *worse* than a 10uf
              > electrolytic!
              > --
              > The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there
              > before. -- Roy Spence
              > --
              > Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
              >
            • bill rowe
              I guess they are like politicians. If the price/frequency is high enough, they will look and act the other way. LOL To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com From:
              Message 6 of 13 , May 22, 2013
                "  I guess they are like politicians. If the price/frequency is high enough, they will look and act the other way."
                LOL
                 

                To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
                From: joshbensadon@...
                Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 19:16:31 +0000
                Subject: [cosmacelf] Re: When Tantalum capacitors aren't enough.

                 
                Hi Lee,

                Thanks for the added info. I always knew about electrolytics acting like inductor coils, not hard to see when it's a bunch of foil coiled up. But I never thought of tantalum or ceramic acting that way. I guess they are like politicians. If the price/frequency is high enough, they will look and act the other way.

                I see NPO written a lot, thought it was a standard for those capacitors, I guess I just never read the fine print to learn it's the material composition. I used to think all ceramics were created equally... guess not. I know there's even more differences between mylar, mica, paper, polyester & air capacitors.

                Joke:
                It seems like people are willing to make capacitors out of anything that doesn't conduct!

                :)J

                --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:
                >
                > On 5/22/2013 7:37 AM, joshbensadon wrote:
                > > A recent post about a tantalum capacitor across the power lines reminds me of a recent problem. I thought the low ESR of a tantalum capacitor would suffice as a decoupling capacitor for an 8M Flash memory chip, but after a lot of head scratching (when the circuit did not work) I found out (the hard way) that you still need a 0.1uF decoupling capacitor.
                > >
                > > I don't know all the rules about decoupling capacitors. But since it can't hurt, I've been in the habit of adding extra capacitors even on existing circuits that are acting intermittent.
                > >
                > > FYI, the one rule about decoupling capacitors I do know, is that the capacitor must be as close to the VCC and GND lines of every chip. I just solder the capacitor on top of the chip directly to these pins.
                > >
                > > I believe decoupling capacitors should be the Ceramic type, but I'm not an expert in all the various types of capacitors, so I'll leave this for discussion.
                >
                > All capacitors have resistance as well as inductance. At different
                > frequencies, different aspects of the capacitor take precedence. At low
                > frequencies they are (of course) capacitive. At high frequencies, the
                > inductance takes over and they become *inductive*! At their
                > self-resonant frequency right between the two, they are resistive.
                >
                > If you plot the capacitor's impedance (apparent resistance) versus
                > frequency, you get a graph like this (view with a fixed width font like
                > Courier):
                >
                > impedance (ohms) versus frequency for an electrolytic capacitor
                > 1000 | \ /
                > 100 | \ /
                > 10 | \ /
                > 1 | \ /
                > .1 | \/
                > .01 |_________________frequency (Hz)
                > 1 100 10k 1M 100M
                >
                > This would be the typical graph of an electrolytic capacitor. Notice the
                > low self-resonant frequency. At frequencies much above the audio range,
                > it's not really a capacitor any more.
                >
                > Tantalums have less capacitance, so they don't make good 60Hz power
                > supply filters. But they also have less inductance and much less
                > resistance. Thus, they work better as filters at high frequencies (up to
                > 1 MHz or so).
                >
                > impedance (ohms) versus frequency for a tantalum capacitor
                > 1000 | \ /
                > 100 | \ /
                > 10 | \ /
                > 1 | \ /
                > .1 | \ /
                > .01 |_________\/______frequency (Hz)
                > 1 100 10k 1M 100M
                >
                > Ceramic capacitors have still less capacitance, but even lower
                > resistance, and far less inductance.
                >
                > impedance (ohms) versus frequency for a ceramic capacitor
                >
                > 100 | \ /
                > 10 | \ /
                > 1 | \ /
                > .1 | \ /
                > .01 | \ /
                > .001 |____________\/______frequency (Hz)
                > 1 100 10k 1M 100M
                >
                > However, hundreds of different "ceramics" are used in ceramic
                > capacitors, and they have a huge range of characteristics. The common
                > ones are COG, NPO, X7R, and Z5U. COG and NPO are the best for very high
                > frequencies, X7R for general use, and Z5U is poor enough to behave much
                > like tantalum. There are also weird formulations that are even worse
                > than electrolytics. For example, I have some tiny 10uF Y5V ceramics that
                > are less than 0.1" on a side -- their performance is *worse* than a 10uf
                > electrolytic!
                > --
                > The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't there
                > before. -- Roy Spence
                > --
                > Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
                >


              • Lee Hart
                From: joshbensadon@yahoo.com ... What a great line! Thanks for my laugh of the day, Josh. :-) ... NPO is the older temperature coefficient description. N =
                Message 7 of 13 , May 22, 2013
                  From: joshbensadon@...
                  > "I guess they are like politicians. If the price/frequency is high
                  > enough, they will look and act the other way."

                  What a great line! Thanks for my laugh of the day, Josh. :-)

                  > I see NPO written a lot, thought it was a standard for those capacitors,

                  NPO is the older temperature coefficient description. N = negative
                  temperature coefficient (capacitance falls as temperature increases), P
                  = positive (capacitance rises as temperature increases). NPO means *no*
                  temperature coefficient; i.e. its capacitance does not change with
                  temperature. Other versions of this you'll see are things like N1500 or
                  P500 (where the number is the capacitance change in parts per million).

                  The letter-number-letter codes are EIA codes that describe more complex
                  temperature characteristics. COG is the EIA code for NPO.

                  > I guess I just never read the fine print to learn it's the material
                  > composition. I used to think all ceramics were created equally...
                  > It seems like people are willing to make capacitors out of anything that
                  > doesn't conduct!

                  Some of the EIA ceramics are staggeringly bad! Read this for more info:
                  http://www.edn.com/design/analog/4402049/Temperature-and-voltage-variation-of-ceramic-capacitors--or-why-your-4-7--F-capacitor-becomes-a-0-33--F-capacitor?page=2
                  --
                  The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man
                  persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress
                  depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
                  --
                  Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
                • /M
                  An advie, picked from the journal for electronic engineers.It can be disastrous to parallell a bad cap with an extremely good cap. In the worst case the high L
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 24, 2013
                    An advie, picked from the journal for electronic engineers.It can be disastrous to parallell a bad cap with an extremely good cap. In the worst case the high L of the bad cap and the low of the good cap will counteract making the cap duo an oscillator triggered by current pulses on thye supply lines.
                    Therefore, always replace bad caps (high ESR or tgd) with better ones.
                     
                    Magnus
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 9:16 PM
                    Subject: [cosmacelf] Re: When Tantalum capacitors aren't enough.

                     

                    Hi Lee,

                    Thanks for the added info. I always knew about electrolytics acting like inductor coils, not hard to see when it's a bunch of foil coiled up. But I never thought of tantalum or ceramic acting that way. I guess they are like politicians. If the price/frequency is high enough, they will look and act the other way.

                    I see NPO written a lot, thought it was a standard for those capacitors, I guess I just never read the fine print to learn it's the material composition. I used to think all ceramics were created equally... guess not. I know there's even more differences between mylar, mica, paper, polyester & air capacitors.

                    Joke:
                    It seems like people are willing to make capacitors out of anything that doesn't conduct!

                    :)J

                  • joshbensadon
                    Good advice always welcomed! Also, it s ok to replace a Capacitor with another that has a higher voltage rating. But what I d really like to say is after this
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 24, 2013
                      Good advice always welcomed!

                      Also, it's ok to replace a Capacitor with another that has a higher voltage rating. But what I'd really like to say is after this is done a couple of times, you then see 63V capacitors on the 5V line.

                      :)J


                      --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "/M" <tubes@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > An advie, picked from the journal for electronic engineers.It can be disastrous to parallell a bad cap with an extremely good cap. In the worst case the high L of the bad cap and the low of the good cap will counteract making the cap duo an oscillator triggered by current pulses on thye supply lines.
                      > Therefore, always replace bad caps (high ESR or tgd) with better ones.
                      >
                      > Magnus
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: joshbensadon
                      > To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 9:16 PM
                      > Subject: [cosmacelf] Re: When Tantalum capacitors aren't enough.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Lee,
                      >
                      > Thanks for the added info. I always knew about electrolytics acting like inductor coils, not hard to see when it's a bunch of foil coiled up. But I never thought of tantalum or ceramic acting that way. I guess they are like politicians. If the price/frequency is high enough, they will look and act the other way.
                      >
                      > I see NPO written a lot, thought it was a standard for those capacitors, I guess I just never read the fine print to learn it's the material composition. I used to think all ceramics were created equally... guess not. I know there's even more differences between mylar, mica, paper, polyester & air capacitors.
                      >
                      > Joke:
                      > It seems like people are willing to make capacitors out of anything that doesn't conduct!
                      >
                      > :)J
                      >
                    • David W. Schultz
                      ... The inductance in an electrolytic capacitor is almost exclusively the result of the connections to the capacitor and not its internal construction. There
                      Message 10 of 13 , May 24, 2013
                        On 05/22/2013 02:16 PM, joshbensadon wrote:
                        > Hi Lee,
                        >
                        > Thanks for the added info. I always knew about electrolytics acting
                        > like inductor coils, not hard to see when it's a bunch of foil coiled
                        > up. But I never thought of tantalum or ceramic acting that way. I
                        > guess they are like politicians. If the price/frequency is high
                        > enough, they will look and act the other way.

                        The inductance in an electrolytic capacitor is almost exclusively the
                        result of the connections to the capacitor and not its internal
                        construction. There was a nice series of articles on capacitors, mostly
                        from the viewpoint of their utility for audio circuits, in Electronics
                        World by Cyril Bateman.

                        http://www.scribd.com/doc/2610442/capacitor-sound

                        With a through hole ceramic capacitor, there is more inductance in the
                        connections to the capacitor than in the capacitor. This is why lead
                        lengths for decoupling capacitors need to be kept short. (I just Googled
                        up a paper on testing SMD capacitors and the shorting plug for a factory
                        built HP SMD test fixture had more inductance than the capacitors.)


                        --
                        David W. Schultz
                        http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz
                        Returned for Regrooving
                      • joshbensadon
                        ... Very cool, I did not know that! I guess that they have more inductance because of the larger diameter of the leads? Which makes sense because inductors
                        Message 11 of 13 , May 24, 2013
                          --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "David W. Schultz" <david.schultz@...> wrote:

                          > > not hard to see when it's a bunch of foil coiled

                          > The inductance in an electrolytic capacitor is almost exclusively the
                          > result of the connections to the capacitor and not its internal
                          > construction.

                          Very cool, I did not know that! I guess that they have more inductance because of the larger diameter of the leads? Which makes sense because inductors require that metalic mass to store the magnetism.


                          Thanks,
                          :)J
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