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Re: Huge document set of 1802 info

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  • thinkpast
    On March 9th 2013, William Donnelly posted in Yahoo group cosmacelf , under the subject line Huge document set of 1802 info a notice including the
    Message 1 of 12 , May 7, 2013
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      On March 9th 2013, William Donnelly posted in Yahoo group "cosmacelf", under the subject line "Huge document set of 1802 info"
      a notice including the following: quote

      I have a pretty large document set of 1802 information.
      Right now it's 8 GB of over 17,000 files.
      Some of it is CRAV info of various old computers and systems and related
      material.

      Is anyone interested in an archive of this?
      You would probably find some gems among the rough and
      treasures here and there.
      But it's a lot of data to sift through.
      Some of it is categorized and some is not.

      Much of it is snapshots of existing websites.
      I guess some people could get irritated about that, although
      it's on the web anyway, so....
      Any existing websites should always be gone to for the most
      up-to-date information and new items that are not in the snapshots.
      Plus it's a good 'mirrored-archive' for when some of those websites
      disappear, which most of them will at some point. I already have
      several that I recovered from the ether.

      - end quote.

      Mr. Donnelly implied opinion, that anything "on the Web" is fair game
      for arbitrary use, is not sound legal judgement. But his opinions are
      none of my business until they affect me.

      I was not aware of this post or activity, or learned about the content
      of his archive, until I read his post of May 6 2013, same subject, as follows, quote:

      I have the download available on DropBox.
      It will be there about 1 month and then disappear. (my cost $9.99)
      Because so much of it is already compressed files, it didn't get much
      smaller.

      - end quote. I happened to read this today, the evening of May 7th 2013. In his post was a link to DropBox to the archive, as a huge single file plus a file listing file contents. I checked the contents file and found these entries:

      Directory of \cdp1802\retrotech

      06/07/2011 03:27 PM <DIR> 1802tbasic
      05/30/2011 06:08 AM 7,679 8th.html
      05/30/2011 06:09 AM 81,910 8th.zip
      07/31/2011 02:17 PM <DIR> A18
      05/30/2011 06:10 AM 6,941 a18.html
      05/30/2011 06:10 AM 143,226 a18.zip
      05/30/2011 06:21 AM 2,268 arecibo.a18
      05/30/2011 06:21 AM 7,233 arecibo.html
      05/30/2011 06:21 AM 5,784 arecibo.prn
      and so on....

      These are clearly files directly from my Web domain at retrotechnology.com in the "membership card" category. Almost every single HTML document of mine, and most text documents, has a copyright notice of the forms:

      Last updated [date]. Edited by Herb Johnson, (c) Herb Johnson,
      This page and edited content is copyright Herb Johnson (c) 2013.

      I am obliged to protect my copyrights and to limit redistribution of materials copyrighted and published by me on my Web domain and site. Therefore:

      Mr. William Donnelly, aka whd_whd_whd, aka "bill", etc. This is a PUBLIC NOTICE for you to CEASE AND DESIST from re-distributing ANY AND ALL COPIES of my documents, materials, images, files, etc from my Web domain "retrotechnolgy.com" or "retrotechnology.net". Many of these were produced or edited by me and contain explicit copyright notices. You have not sought my permission to redistribute my documents. You have not asked me if I wished for you to "mirror" my site or documents. You have not directly notified me in any way of
      your plans or intentions. I only learned of your actions via your posts as noted.

      William Donnelly, YOU DO NOT HAVE MY PERMISSION TO REDISTRIBUTE MY DOCUMENTS. PERIOD.

      Furthermore, I INSIST YOU REMOVE SAID DOCUMENTS FROM ANY PUBLIC DISTRIBUTIONS, IMMEDIATELY.

      [signed] Herbert R. Johnson, dated May 7th 2013.

      To those who have made copies of Mr. Donnelly's unauthorized distribution of my documents, files, etc.: I respectfully request you DO NOT DISTRIBUTE THEM. It's not my business to tell people what to do on the Web. It IS my business, when they engage in arbitrary redistribution or republication of my materials.

      I am the publisher of these works, I benefit from publication on my Web domain. Anyone who re-publishes my works without my permission is violating my copyrights, and potentially dilluting my benefits and/or obtaining benefits from my work for themselves without compsenating me. That is unfair to me, a violation of my intellectual property rights, and my economic rights. I am obliged to prohibit such actions and demand they cease, whenever I become aware of them.

      Persons who contact me about rights to use my documents, are treated with consideration and respect and I've often granted specific uses for individual documents. How I mirror and archive my site is for me to determine and perform. Mr. Donnelly's actions upon my property, were not done with my knowlege or permission. My apologies to my friends and colleagues at "cosmacelf", for the tedious length and detail of this post.

      Regards,
      Herb Johnson
      retrotechnology.com
    • William Donnelly
      Herb hosted a lot of Lee s stuff, so, unfortunately, much of the Membership Card information is not included now. It would be too difficult to try to go
      Message 2 of 12 , May 8, 2013
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        Herb hosted a lot of Lee's stuff, so, unfortunately, much of the Membership Card
        information is not included now. It would be too difficult to try to go through and
        cherry pick. (assuming Lee is also not against the idea, whatever parts were his)

        That's why I just dumped my whole CDP1802 directory into the archive, which was
        difficult enough time-wise and disk space-wise. But the now-missing info is there online,
        although a bit difficult to find, so people can go get it for themselves.

        If anything, I suppose people can look at the file list and if something catches their
        eye, they can try to search for it. I wouldn't be surprised if other people will be contacting me
        about inclusion of their stuff, as well. Like I said, it's no big deal. A bit of a pain to remove
        and re-upload, but only a minor irritation.

        On the one hand I understand Herb's complaint, but on the other, it's not like it's
        a copy of a copyrighted book that someone can only get by purchasing and someone
        is still selling it for money. And most of the stuff removed, although not 'worthless',
        isn't necessarily 'gold', either. (+/-) Plus it's still available for whomever wants to go get it,
        since, as is obvious, it is publicly published information on the Net, which is a whole
        'nother ball game that the copyright laws have not adequately taken into account.

        Or me making any money off of it, or anything like that. It actually has cost me ~$10
        and literally hundreds of hours of rather painstaking research and work-product to gather it all.
        Which I made available free-gratis. (and I know some people appreciate)

        If anything falls under a fair use for educational purposes, it's this archive. But that's
        partly why they made copyright law so ephemeral, so the courts can be the final
        arbiters of what's what, and one really has to want to fight it if they think they are right,
        and have the money to back that up. That's why the laws need to be changed, because
        they are screwing the people who should be getting the benefit of the work more so than
        they even come close to protecting the authors, etc., especially under certain circumstances.

        (btw -- any inclusion of ANY material in the archive has ABSOLUTELY NO negative impact
        whatsoever in any way, shape, or form, on any person's copyright or intellectual property rights --
        if anyone thinks so, a simple message of "thanks for including my information in the
        fair use educational archive -- I give you the right to do so under these circumstances"
        would easily clear up any possible issues that might arise, although imo it is completely unnecessary)

        I just thought it would be nice to offer it as a service of sorts to the 1802 community.

        But, whatever. All-in-all, it's not a big deal, one way or another. Just another blip on the Screen of Life.

        – Bill
         
        On 5/8/2013 1:02 AM, Charles Richmond wrote:
        On May 8, 2013, at 1:00 AM, William Donnelly wrote:
        {snip}
        
        Bill, one of the items on Herb Johnson's list was "8th.zip".  I  
        thought this was a language that Lee Hart was freely distributing.  
        How is it that Herb has a "copyright" on it???
        
        --
        +----------------------------------------+
        |.....Charles and Francis Richmond.......|
        |........................................|
        |..plano dot net at aquaporin4 dot com...|
        +----------------------------------------+
        
        

      • Steve Gemeny
        Bill, You may recall that your initial post to the group requesting others to disrespect copyright by producing copies of copyrighted material resulted in a
        Message 3 of 12 , May 8, 2013
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          Bill,

          You may recall that your initial post to the group requesting others to disrespect copyright by producing copies of copyrighted material resulted in a clear caution to you about exactly this situation.

          By the way... Any and all documentation that was produced by Quest Electronics MUST be marked with the Creative Commons distribution notice with attribution to Rodger Pitkin if if is to be in compliance with his release.  Roger, the owner of Quest Electronics has been quite clear about that as a condition of his willingness to release all the Quest material for non commercial hobby use. See the Quest documentation folder in the files section of the group for details.

          As well, you should be aware that journal articles are all copyrighted by their original publishes... Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Lab is particularly vigilant on this.  So if you have included any papers, perhaps a couple that I may have authored, I suggest in the most strong manor possible that you secure permission and tread lightly.

          Remember - no good deed goes unpunished...

          Steve Gemeny

          Sent by my large thumbs via tiny soft iKeys... 

          On May 8, 2013, at 4:48 AM, William Donnelly <william@...> wrote:

          Herb hosted a lot of Lee's stuff, so, unfortunately, much of the Membership Card
          information is not included now. It would be too difficult to try to go through and
          cherry pick. (assuming Lee is also not against the idea, whatever parts were his)

          That's why I just dumped my whole CDP1802 directory into the archive, which was
          difficult enough time-wise and disk space-wise. But the now-missing info is there online,
          although a bit difficult to find, so people can go get it for themselves.

          If anything, I suppose people can look at the file list and if something catches their
          eye, they can try to search for it. I wouldn't be surprised if other people will be contacting me
          about inclusion of their stuff, as well. Like I said, it's no big deal. A bit of a pain to remove
          and re-upload, but only a minor irritation.

          On the one hand I understand Herb's complaint, but on the other, it's not like it's
          a copy of a copyrighted book that someone can only get by purchasing and someone
          is still selling it for money. And most of the stuff removed, although not 'worthless',
          isn't necessarily 'gold', either. (+/-) Plus it's still available for whomever wants to go get it,
          since, as is obvious, it is publicly published information on the Net, which is a whole
          'nother ball game that the copyright laws have not adequately taken into account.

          Or me making any money off of it, or anything like that. It actually has cost me ~$10
          and literally hundreds of hours of rather painstaking research and work-product to gather it all.
          Which I made available free-gratis. (and I know some people appreciate)

          If anything falls under a fair use for educational purposes, it's this archive. But that's
          partly why they made copyright law so ephemeral, so the courts can be the final
          arbiters of what's what, and one really has to want to fight it if they think they are right,
          and have the money to back that up. That's why the laws need to be changed, because
          they are screwing the people who should be getting the benefit of the work more so than
          they even come close to protecting the authors, etc., especially under certain circumstances.

          (btw -- any inclusion of ANY material in the archive has ABSOLUTELY NO negative impact
          whatsoever in any way, shape, or form, on any person's copyright or intellectual property rights --
          if anyone thinks so, a simple message of "thanks for including my information in the
          fair use educational archive -- I give you the right to do so under these circumstances"
          would easily clear up any possible issues that might arise, although imo it is completely unnecessary)

          I just thought it would be nice to offer it as a service of sorts to the 1802 community.

          But, whatever. All-in-all, it's not a big deal, one way or another. Just another blip on the Screen of Life.

          – Bill
           
          On 5/8/2013 1:02 AM, Charles Richmond wrote:
          On May 8, 2013, at 1:00 AM, William Donnelly wrote:
          {snip}
          
          Bill, one of the items on Herb Johnson's list was "8th.zip".  I  
          thought this was a language that Lee Hart was freely distributing.  
          How is it that Herb has a "copyright" on it???
          
          --
          +----------------------------------------+
          |.....Charles and Francis Richmond.......|
          |........................................|
          |..plano dot net at aquaporin4 dot com...|
          +----------------------------------------+
          
          

        • Lee Hart
          ... I wrote it, and have a printed listing, but no longer have a copy of the source on disk. Herb Johnson was interested in it, so I sent him a printed copy,
          Message 4 of 12 , May 8, 2013
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            Charles Richmond wrote:
            > Bill, one of the items on Herb Johnson's list was "8th.zip". I
            > thought this was a language that Lee Hart was freely distributing.
            > How is it that Herb has a "copyright" on it???

            I wrote it, and have a printed listing, but no longer have a copy of the
            source on disk. Herb Johnson was interested in it, so I sent him a
            printed copy, and gave him permission to scan it and put it online. That
            was Herb's work. He added value, and so he is entitled to control its
            distribution.

            Herb is a true historian of these early microcomputer systems. He has
            spent a lot of money, and put in a tremendous amount of time to
            document, maintain, and provide parts and support not only for the 1802,
            but for literally hundreds of other early computers as well. I am
            honored that he chose my little efforts to include in his archives.

            I have always found him to be meticulous in getting his facts straight,
            and scrupulously careful to get permission from the original authors
            before publishing anything. I trust him, and he has my support!

            --
            A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
            nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
            -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
            --
            Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
          • Lee Hart
            ... Bill, I was offended to find that you were distributing my work without permission. The information was *already* on-line, and easily found by any search
            Message 5 of 12 , May 8, 2013
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              William Donnelly wrote:
              > Herb hosted a lot of Lee's stuff, so, unfortunately, much of the
              > Membership Card information is not included now. It would be too
              > difficult to try to go through and cherry pick. (assuming Lee is
              > also not against the idea, whatever parts were his)

              Bill, I was offended to find that you were distributing my work without
              permission. The information was *already* on-line, and easily found by
              any search engine. There was nothing to be gained by copying and
              redistributing it.

              And, there was much to be lost. It cheapens the work, obscures where it
              came from, and diverts away potential customers. You've put uncontrolled
              copies in circulation, so that now any corrections and updates can't be
              made in a controlled fashion.

              I'm no lawyer, but it almost certainly violated copyright laws as well.
              There are right ways, and wrong ways to do this. You chose the wrong way.

              Cease and desist from distributing any of my works immediately.

              --
              First they ignore you; then they mock you; then they fight you; then you
              win. -- Mahatma Gandhi
              --
              Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
            • thinkpast
              ... http://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/8th.html That linked document, describes the details of how 8th was restored to use, and states copyrights and
              Message 6 of 12 , May 8, 2013
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                --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:
                >
                > Charles Richmond wrote:
                > > Bill, one of the items on Herb Johnson's list was "8th.zip". I
                > > thought this was a language that Lee Hart was freely distributing.
                > > How is it that Herb has a "copyright" on it???
                >
                > I wrote it, and have a printed listing, but no longer have a copy of the
                > source on disk. Herb Johnson was interested in it, so I sent him a
                > printed copy, and gave him permission to scan it and put it online. That
                > was Herb's work. He added value, and so he is entitled to control its
                > distribution.

                http://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/8th.html

                That linked document, describes the details of how 8th was restored to use, and states copyrights and implies terms of use. That document was written by me, copyrighted by me, and includes a copyright notice for Lee Hart's work.

                Donnelly copied that HTML document, and over ONE HUNDRED files and documents, from my Web site. I'm not going to list them all, or haggle here in cosmacelf over - every - single - one of them. That's not the purpose of this Yahoo group. Please go to my Web site, for any information about the documents and contents THERE.

                Thanks to Lee Hart for his support and description of why he values the work I've done - just as I value his work and how our collaboration, and the work of others, has benefited many people. All with permission and support from all involved. THAT, in the context of the COSMAC 1802, IS the purpose and process of this Yahoo group, to my understanding.

                Herb Johnson
                retrotechnology.com
              • joshbensadon
                This action has spiraled out of control and has turned the whole board into a flame war. I m not qualified to say who is right and wrong. However, I try to
                Message 7 of 12 , May 8, 2013
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                  This action has spiraled out of control and has turned the whole board into a flame war.

                  I'm not qualified to say who is right and wrong. However, I try to understand both parties here.

                  I know Herb works very hard to obtain permission for material on his site. Bill is also working to preserve as much information by copying.

                  We all want to keep the truth about the past alive.

                  If only Bill and Herb could walk a mile in each others shoes, they will see how each approach has offended the other.

                  I sincerely wish for patience and peace so we can all enjoy the past.

                  For peace to happen, we all must make small concessions and start focusing on the good. I believe we are all reasonable men here and can settle our differences if we talk to each other with our expectations and live by the old netiquette, "No offense intended, none taken"


                  Regards,
                  Josh
                • Andrew Wasson
                  Nice way of putting it Josh. I ve been trying to find the words to convey the same message. I think that kind of sums it up from my point of view too. Andrew
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 8, 2013
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                    Nice way of putting it Josh. I've been trying to find the words to convey the same message. 

                    I think that kind of sums it up from my point of view too.

                    Andrew







                    On 2013-05-08, at 5:35 PM, "joshbensadon" <joshbensadon@...> wrote:

                     

                    This action has spiraled out of control and has turned the whole board into a flame war.

                    I'm not qualified to say who is right and wrong. However, I try to understand both parties here.

                    I know Herb works very hard to obtain permission for material on his site. Bill is also working to preserve as much information by copying.

                    We all want to keep the truth about the past alive.

                    If only Bill and Herb could walk a mile in each others shoes, they will see how each approach has offended the other.

                    I sincerely wish for patience and peace so we can all enjoy the past.

                    For peace to happen, we all must make small concessions and start focusing on the good. I believe we are all reasonable men here and can settle our differences if we talk to each other with our expectations and live by the old netiquette, "No offense intended, none taken"

                    Regards,
                    Josh


                  • Doug Jackson
                    Thanks Josh, Everything we do is all to easily forgotten - forever. Doug ... -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 8, 2013
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                      Thanks Josh,
                       
                      Everything we do is all to easily forgotten - forever.
                       
                      Doug


                       
                      On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Andrew Wasson <awasson@...> wrote:
                       

                      Nice way of putting it Josh. I've been trying to find the words to convey the same message. 


                      I think that kind of sums it up from my point of view too.

                      Andrew







                      On 2013-05-08, at 5:35 PM, "joshbensadon" <joshbensadon@...> wrote:

                       

                      This action has spiraled out of control and has turned the whole board into a flame war.

                      I'm not qualified to say who is right and wrong. However, I try to understand both parties here.

                      I know Herb works very hard to obtain permission for material on his site. Bill is also working to preserve as much information by copying.

                      We all want to keep the truth about the past alive.

                      If only Bill and Herb could walk a mile in each others shoes, they will see how each approach has offended the other.

                      I sincerely wish for patience and peace so we can all enjoy the past.

                      For peace to happen, we all must make small concessions and start focusing on the good. I believe we are all reasonable men here and can settle our differences if we talk to each other with our expectations and live by the old netiquette, "No offense intended, none taken"

                      Regards,
                      Josh





                      --
                      Doug Jackson
                      VK1ZDJ
                      http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities
                    • country_robot
                      ... Hear, hear! Feelings seem to be running high, but totally out of proportion to the intrinsic importance of the topic. The actions of both parties are not
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 8, 2013
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                        --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Doug Jackson <doug@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thanks Josh,
                        >
                        > Everything we do is all to easily forgotten - forever.
                        >
                        > Doug

                        Hear, hear! Feelings seem to be running high, but totally out of proportion to the intrinsic importance of the topic. The actions of both parties are not without flaw. A few polite, friendly, offline email exchanges would have prevented this blowup in the first place.

                        A wise person knows when to humbly apologise. And an even wiser person knows to feel shame for having caused the need for such an apology in the first place.

                        The interested parties can sort themselves out as to which (both?) sorts of wise person they want to be.

                        Friendly cooperation is the only thing that will keep this group viable, or even relevant, and I intend to resign from the group if some sort of amicable accord is not established in the next few weeks. I urge other people to take the same stand.

                        -Bobby
                      • Dave Ruske
                        ... Good man, Josh. I ve had a distracting couple of days, and I was disappointed to find this mess in my inbox tonight. To all those silent subscribers on the
                        Message 11 of 12 , May 8, 2013
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                          On May 8, 2013, at 7:35 PM, "joshbensadon" <joshbensadon@...> wrote:
                          > For peace to happen, we all must make small concessions and start focusing on the good. I believe we are all reasonable men here and can settle our differences if we talk to each other with our expectations and live by the old netiquette, "No offense intended, none taken"

                          Good man, Josh. I've had a distracting couple of days, and I was disappointed to find this mess in my inbox tonight. To all those silent subscribers on the list, please rest assured that this discussion will not continue in volume and tone.

                          Some of this may be my fault: perhaps I should have put together a FAQ of some sort about copyright years ago, but generally the group polices itself pretty well, and I really don't know any more about copyright than most people here.

                          The way I see it, Bill intended no harm, and was trying to perform a service for the community. I've personally tried to find information that disappeared from the web, and I think current copyright law does need some intelligent overhaul (I don't view the DMCA as particularly well thought out). I've also archived material for my personal use to keep from being bit by such disappearances; who among us hasn't?

                          That said, the law is the law, warts and all, and we're obliged to live within its limits, and occasionally lobby for change (insert EFF.org plug here). I'm fine with anyone archiving any content from cosmacelf.com for their personal use, and I believe anyone is within their fair use rights to do so. But much of the material on that site, such as Tom Pittman's "Short Course," RCA's 1800 series data sheets, Steve and Michael Gemeny's "Tale of Two Processors," Juergen Pintaske's "Design Ideas" book, and various photos from many contributors, is material I've been permitted to publish by the copyright holders. While I can (and will!) give someone permission to publish my original works from the website, I can't extend permission to republish the works of others, even though it's freely available.

                          I see good points --- and the best of intentions --- on both sides. Let's respect copyrights, and each other, and get back to discussing the technology we enjoy.

                          Dave
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