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Re: Who wants a membership card loader(not the olduino)?

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  • joen2cx
    ... Hi Bill, Count me in for one of the loaders. Been on the list (in lurker mode) since K2ULR mentioned the Membership card at an NJQRP meeting. I worked
    Message 1 of 30 , Mar 21, 2013
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      --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, bill rowe <bill_rowe_ottawa@...> wrote:
      >
      > I'm having great fun with the olduino and I'd be delighted if others wanted to make one BUT, I think a simpler solution for loading the membership card would be better for most people.
      > There are a couple of dozen original MC's in the wild that have the parallel port loader arrangement. I think it was chuck bigham that made a PIC-based loader which I replicated with an AVR. If we could get a show of interest, Chuck or I or somebody else could make a small assembly that would connect an original membership card front panel to a USB serial cable.
      > If 10 people wanted them I think they could be $5 to $10 each.
      >
      Hi Bill,

      Count me in for one of the loaders. Been on the list (in lurker mode) since K2ULR mentioned the Membership card at an NJQRP meeting. I worked for RCA in the deep dark past and was active in a VIP club.

      Naturally I got a Membership card and could use an easy method to load code onto it.

      Regards,

      Joe E., N2CX
    • joen2cx
      ... Hi Bill, Count me in for one of the loaders. Been on the list (in lurker mode) since K2ULR mentioned the Membership card at an NJQRP meeting. I worked
      Message 2 of 30 , Mar 21, 2013
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        --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, bill rowe <bill_rowe_ottawa@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm having great fun with the olduino and I'd be delighted if others wanted to make one BUT, I think a simpler solution for loading the membership card would be better for most people.
        > There are a couple of dozen original MC's in the wild that have the parallel port loader arrangement. I think it was chuck bigham that made a PIC-based loader which I replicated with an AVR. If we could get a show of interest, Chuck or I or somebody else could make a small assembly that would connect an original membership card front panel to a USB serial cable.
        > If 10 people wanted them I think they could be $5 to $10 each.
        >
        Hi Bill,

        Count me in for one of the loaders. Been on the list (in lurker mode) since K2ULR mentioned the Membership card at an NJQRP meeting. I worked for RCA in the deep dark past and was active in a VIP club.

        Naturally I got a Membership card and could use an easy method to load code onto it.

        Regards,

        Joe E., N2CX
      • Chuck Bigham
        It shouldn t be hard for me to make up a short kit (PCB + programmed Picaxe 20M2) for connecting the Membership Card to a PC via a serial connection. I think I
        Message 3 of 30 , Mar 21, 2013
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          It shouldn’t be hard for me to make up a short kit (PCB + programmed Picaxe 20M2) for connecting the Membership Card to a PC via a serial connection. I think I have a board design around somewhere that I made up but then didn’t actually produce. I’m not sure how much it would cost – the board place that I use (OSH Park) charges $1.66 an inch in multiples of 3 boards – but I don’t have a board design to hand that I can check to see how bit it would be. The Picaxe 20M2 is $5.95.

          You’d have to provide your own USB-to-serial converter, but I can make sure the board supports the popular 6-pin interface for BUB boards (like I use) or FTDI cables, like Bill uses.

           

          Chuck

           

          From: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bill rowe
          Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 9:50 AM
          To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [cosmacelf] Who wants a membership card loader(not the olduino)?

           

           

          I'm having great fun with the olduino and I'd be delighted if others wanted to make one BUT, I think a simpler solution for loading the membership card would be better for most people.

           

          There are a couple of dozen original MC's in the wild that have the parallel port loader arrangement.  I think it was chuck bigham that made a PIC-based loader which I replicated with an AVR.  If we could get a show of interest, Chuck or I or somebody else could make a small assembly that would connect an original membership card front panel to a USB serial cable.

           

          If 10 people wanted them I think they could be $5 to $10  each.

           

           

        • bill rowe
          It would be great if you put something together. About 7 or 8 people spoke up and I suspect others would over time and I d want one. It sounds like it would
          Message 4 of 30 , Mar 21, 2013
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            It would be great if you put something together.  About 7 or 8 people spoke up and I suspect others would over time and I'd want one.  It sounds like it would be more than I thought but maybe not much.  

            I think the BUB's pinout must be the same as the ftdi cable.  I originally got my cable from modern devices to use with their RBBB and the web site says
            "One pin header comes connected in the pin order of the FTDI RS232 cable (the same as theBBB/RBBB/LilyPad/Arduino Pro pin header, with the added bonus of having the DTR line instead of having to use the RTS line (with its attendant quirks), the way the FTDI cable works."



            To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
            From: chuck@...
            Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 12:22:58 -0700
            Subject: RE: [cosmacelf] Who wants a membership card loader(not the olduino)?

             

            It shouldn’t be hard for me to make up a short kit (PCB + programmed Picaxe 20M2) for connecting the Membership Card to a PC via a serial connection. I think I have a board design around somewhere that I made up but then didn’t actually produce. I’m not sure how much it would cost – the board place that I use (OSH Park) charges $1.66 an inch in multiples of 3 boards – but I don’t have a board design to hand that I can check to see how bit it would be. The Picaxe 20M2 is $5.95.

            You’d have to provide your own USB-to-serial converter, but I can make sure the board supports the popular 6-pin interface for BUB boards (like I use) or FTDI cables, like Bill uses.

             

            Chuck

             

            From: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bill rowe
            Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 9:50 AM
            To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [cosmacelf] Who wants a membership card loader(not the olduino)?

             

             

            I'm having great fun with the olduino and I'd be delighted if others wanted to make one BUT, I think a simpler solution for loading the membership card would be better for most people.

             

            There are a couple of dozen original MC's in the wild that have the parallel port loader arrangement.  I think it was chuck bigham that made a PIC-based loader which I replicated with an AVR.  If we could get a show of interest, Chuck or I or somebody else could make a small assembly that would connect an original membership card front panel to a USB serial cable.

             

            If 10 people wanted them I think they could be $5 to $10  each.

             

             


          • joen2cx
            ... Hi Bill, Count me in for one of the loaders. Been on the list (in lurker mode) since K2ULR mentioned the Membership card at an NJQRP meeting. I worked
            Message 5 of 30 , Mar 21, 2013
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              --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, bill rowe <bill_rowe_ottawa@...> wrote:
              >
              > I'm having great fun with the olduino and I'd be delighted if others wanted to make one BUT, I think a simpler solution for loading the membership card would be better for most people.
              > There are a couple of dozen original MC's in the wild that have the parallel port loader arrangement. I think it was chuck bigham that made a PIC-based loader which I replicated with an AVR. If we could get a show of interest, Chuck or I or somebody else could make a small assembly that would connect an original membership card front panel to a USB serial cable.
              > If 10 people wanted them I think they could be $5 to $10 each.
              >
              Hi Bill,

              Count me in for one of the loaders. Been on the list (in lurker mode) since K2ULR mentioned the Membership card at an NJQRP meeting. I worked for RCA in the deep dark past and was active in a VIP club.

              Naturally I got a Membership card and could use an easy method to load code onto it.

              Regards,

              Joe E., N2CX
            • James "Chewy" Vroman
              Count me in for 3 James Chewy Vroman - AC0BN james@vroman.com Messages in this topic (24)
              Message 6 of 30 , Mar 22, 2013
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                Count me in for 3

                James "Chewy" Vroman  - AC0BN
                james@...


                >Messages in this topic (24)
                >________________________________________________________________________
                >________________________________________________________________________
                >3a. Re:
                > Posted by: "joen2cx" n2cx@... joen2cx
                > Date: Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:05 pm ((PDT))
                >
                >
                >
                >--- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, bill rowe wrote:
                >>
                >> I'm having great fun with the olduino and I'd be delighted if others wanted to make one BUT, I think a simpler solution for loading the membership card would be better for most people.
                >> There are a couple of dozen original MC's in the wild that have the parallel port loader arrangement. I think it was chuck bigham that made a PIC-based loader which I replicated with an AVR. If we could get a show of interest, Chuck or I or somebody else could make a small assembly that would connect an original membership card front panel to a USB serial cable.
                >> If 10 people wanted them I think they could be $5 to $10 each.
                >>
                >Hi Bill,
                >
                >Count me in for one of the loaders. Been on the list (in lurker mode) since K2ULR mentioned the Membership card at an NJQRP meeting. I worked for RCA in the deep dark past and was active in a VIP club.
                >
                >Naturally I got a Membership card and could use an easy method to load code onto it.
                >
                >Regards,
                >
                >Joe E., N2CX
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

              • Kevin
                An adapter board for the adapter board. (USB = RS-232 = ELF) I m thinking there are already USB digital I/O boards out there:
                Message 7 of 30 , Mar 24, 2013
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                  An adapter board for the adapter board. (USB => RS-232 => ELF)

                  I'm thinking there are already USB digital I/O boards out there:

                  http://www.dlpdesign.com/usb/io14.shtml
                  http://www.dlpdesign.com/usb/usb1232h.shtml

                  Just find the right one and the project is done.

                  There is also a small footprint 8051 uC that has built-in USB and tons of I/O pins:

                  http://www.silabs.com/products/mcu/usb/Pages/C8051T62x-T32x.aspx




                  --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Bigham <chuck@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > It shouldn't be hard for me to make up a short kit (PCB + programmed Picaxe
                  > 20M2) for connecting the Membership Card to a PC via a serial connection. I
                  > think I have a board design around somewhere that I made up but then didn't
                  > actually produce. I'm not sure how much it would cost - the board place that
                  > I use (OSH Park) charges $1.66 an inch in multiples of 3 boards - but I
                  > don't have a board design to hand that I can check to see how bit it would
                  > be. The Picaxe 20M2 is $5.95.
                  >
                  > You'd have to provide your own USB-to-serial converter, but I can make sure
                  > the board supports the popular 6-pin interface for BUB boards (like I use)
                  > or FTDI cables, like Bill uses.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Chuck
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  > Of bill rowe
                  > Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 9:50 AM
                  > To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [cosmacelf] Who wants a membership card loader(not the olduino)?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I'm having great fun with the olduino and I'd be delighted if others wanted
                  > to make one BUT, I think a simpler solution for loading the membership card
                  > would be better for most people.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > There are a couple of dozen original MC's in the wild that have the parallel
                  > port loader arrangement. I think it was chuck bigham that made a PIC-based
                  > loader which I replicated with an AVR. If we could get a show of interest,
                  > Chuck or I or somebody else could make a small assembly that would connect
                  > an original membership card front panel to a USB serial cable.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > If 10 people wanted them I think they could be $5 to $10 each.
                  >
                • jdrose_8_bit
                  I am not sure I am following. Why is RS-232 relevant? In my situation, my PC has neither a parallel or serial RS-232 port. It does have 4 USB ports. I guess in
                  Message 8 of 30 , Mar 24, 2013
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                    I am not sure I am following. Why is RS-232 relevant?

                    In my situation, my PC has neither a parallel or serial RS-232 port. It does have 4 USB ports.

                    I guess in my mind I am wanting to be able to type in machine code (or generate it with a cross assembler) on my PC, then output the code through the USB port and into the 1802 MC 25 pin port to memory automatically.

                    (It is interesting that the RS-232 also uses a 25 pin connector. Perhaps I am confusing parallel and serial.)

                    Very interesting project. Really enjoying everyone hashing out ideas. Good learning experience.

                    --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <kriceslo@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > An adapter board for the adapter board. (USB => RS-232 => ELF)
                    >
                    > I'm thinking there are already USB digital I/O boards out there:
                    >
                    > http://www.dlpdesign.com/usb/io14.shtml
                    > http://www.dlpdesign.com/usb/usb1232h.shtml
                    >
                    >
                  • William Donnelly
                    I thought it would be great to have access to thumb/flash drives. I don t know a lot about how all that works. Although I thought they all required a device
                    Message 9 of 30 , Mar 24, 2013
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                      I thought it would be great to have access to thumb/flash drives.
                      I don't know a lot about how all that works. Although I thought they
                      all required a device driver, that is automatically downloaded using
                      Plug 'n' Play tech. by the host computer. That seems a bit difficult
                      for 1802 usage. But I found this:

                      http://www.parallax.com/Store/Microcontrollers/BASICStampModules/tabid/134/List/1/ProductID/434/Default.aspx?txtSearch=usb+datalogger&SortField=ProductName%2cProductName

                      Memory Stick Datalogger

                      The Memory Stick Datalogger is a USB host bridge which allows you to connect a USB mass storage device,
                      such as a thumb drive, to your BASIC Stamp, SX or Propeller microcontroller. The Vinculum Chip on the
                      Datalogger handles the file system of the Memory Stick so that you can share the files with your PC
                      using simple serial commands. This device is ideal for remote logging of large quantities of data, and
                      hosting large database for RFID Access Control or other applications.


                      So that sounds pretty cool and usable. May or may not be usable for "booting" a program,
                      but more for both having access to a nice, large read/write data storage device, and also
                      being able to read/write from your PC. The Elf2K Compact Flash interface is good, but I
                      would prefer this, if possible. I suppose it would require some interface programming to
                      communicate with the device and allow read/write. So maybe a boot program could load
                      another larger boot program that would (maybe) load a larger program from the memory stick
                      that would allow access to it and any programs and data files stored on it. Something like that.

                      – Bill

                      On 3/24/2013 9:50 AM, Kevin wrote:
                       
                      {snip}

                    • William Donnelly
                      And there s this one, and some other info. https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9947 http://playground.arduino.cc/Main/UsbMemory
                      Message 10 of 30 , Mar 24, 2013
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                      • William Donnelly
                        Serial is semi-relevant because the 1802 can bit-bang a serial interface using the Q line and one of the EF lines. And parallel is easier (in some ways)
                        Message 11 of 30 , Mar 24, 2013
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                          Serial is semi-relevant because the 1802 can "bit-bang" a serial interface using
                          the Q line and one of the EF lines. And parallel is "easier" (in some ways) because
                          it is 8 bits in and out, without having to mess with serial communication.
                          Although, because parallel was often/usually used as a "printer port", some colder
                          computers allowed / supported parallel out, but not "in". And it was all a big,
                          non-standard mess besides that, as usual.

                          New(er) computers don't tend to have parallel or serial ports, just USB.

                          Personally, I can't really imagine running an older computer that has a parallel and/or serial port.
                          Unless I was only going to specifically use it for retro-like interfacing to 1802's, etc.
                          I do have a couple of older computers that might fall into those categories.
                          I can remember wishing I had a USB port on my then-old computer.
                          Sometimes I give away or sell my older computers, but I tend to keep them... somewhere.

                          Luckily we do have USB to parallel and serial converters... for awhile.
                          Although we also now have some USB support for microcontrollers, which I mentioned
                          in another e-mail.

                          – Bill

                          On 3/24/2013 10:10 AM, jdrose_8_bit wrote:
                           

                          I am not sure I am following. Why is RS-232 relevant?

                          In my situation, my PC has neither a parallel or serial RS-232 port. It does have 4 USB ports.

                          I guess in my mind I am wanting to be able to type in machine code (or generate it with a cross assembler) on my PC, then output the code through the USB port and into the 1802 MC 25 pin port to memory automatically.

                          (It is interesting that the RS-232 also uses a 25 pin connector. Perhaps I am confusing parallel and serial.)

                          Very interesting project. Really enjoying everyone hashing out ideas. Good learning experience.

                          {snip}

                        • jdrose_8_bit
                          That is interesting but I wonder if it would be of practical value? For example, I would not be developing any programs directly on the MC so I would only need
                          Message 12 of 30 , Mar 24, 2013
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                            That is interesting but I wonder if it would be of practical value?

                            For example, I would not be developing any programs directly on the MC so I would only need to load code from the PC to the MC. Not sure I would need to save a program that is in the MC. It also seems that that ability would add complexity and cost to the project.


                            --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, William Donnelly <william@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I thought it would be great to have access to thumb/flash drives.
                            > I don't know a lot about how all that works. Although I thought they
                            > all required a device driver, that is automatically downloaded using
                            > Plug 'n' Play tech. by the host computer. That seems a bit difficult
                            > for 1802 usage.
                          • Kevin
                            jdrose, The USB boot loader that has been proposed connects to RS-232. A USB-to-RS-232 adapter (which are available off the shelf) is then required to
                            Message 13 of 30 , Mar 24, 2013
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                              jdrose,

                              The USB boot loader that has been proposed connects to RS-232. A USB-to-RS-232 adapter (which are available off the shelf) is then required to interface RS-232 to your computer.

                              I suggested there are USB to digital I/O products that are existing and available without creating an adapter that simply connects to another adapter!

                              I found one or two digital I/O devices that would work that have drivers available for all platforms. Off-the-shelf with no R&D required.

                              I also pointed to an 8051 uC that includes on-board USB support and 16-bits worth of I/O pins. Such a device could directly interface the membership card to USB (and power it as well). This 48 MHz uC likely could capture bus data to trace program execution and/or could control the 1802 clock acting as a virtual in-circuit debugger.

                              All via USB. (Some assembly required) No pun intended.



                              --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "jdrose_8_bit" <rarecoinbuyer@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I am not sure I am following. Why is RS-232 relevant?
                              >
                              > In my situation, my PC has neither a parallel or serial RS-232 port. It does have 4 USB ports.
                              >
                              > I guess in my mind I am wanting to be able to type in machine code (or generate it with a cross assembler) on my PC, then output the code through the USB port and into the 1802 MC 25 pin port to memory automatically.
                              >
                              > (It is interesting that the RS-232 also uses a 25 pin connector. Perhaps I am confusing parallel and serial.)
                              >
                              > Very interesting project. Really enjoying everyone hashing out ideas. Good learning experience.
                              >
                              > --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <kriceslo@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > An adapter board for the adapter board. (USB => RS-232 => ELF)
                              > >
                              > > I'm thinking there are already USB digital I/O boards out there:
                              > >
                              > > http://www.dlpdesign.com/usb/io14.shtml
                              > > http://www.dlpdesign.com/usb/usb1232h.shtml
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • jdrose_8_bit
                              ... Sorry. Thanks for the clarification. Somehow I overlooked that.
                              Message 14 of 30 , Mar 24, 2013
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                                --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <kriceslo@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > jdrose,
                                >
                                > The USB boot loader that has been proposed connects to RS-232. A USB-to-RS-232 adapter (which are available off the shelf) is then required to interface RS-232 to your computer.
                                >

                                Sorry. Thanks for the clarification. Somehow I overlooked that.
                              • jdrose_8_bit
                                Great information. Makes me dizzy though. :-) I ll just stay out of it and buy whatever is finally offered. Looking forward to it.
                                Message 15 of 30 , Mar 24, 2013
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                                  Great information. Makes me dizzy though. :-)

                                  I'll just stay out of it and buy whatever is finally offered. Looking forward to it.

                                  --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, William Donnelly <william@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > And there's this one, and some other info.
                                  >
                                  > https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9947
                                  >
                                  > http://playground.arduino.cc/Main/UsbMemory
                                  >
                                  > http://www.lvr.com/access_flash_drives_with_a_microcontroller.htm
                                  >
                                  > http://www.ftdichip.com/Products/ICs/VNC1L.htm
                                  >
                                  > http://www.ghielectronics.com/catalog/search?q=usb
                                  >
                                  > – Bill
                                  >
                                • Lee Hart
                                  ... The whole point of serial and parallel ports is that they made it easy to talk to dumb hardware that didn t have computers. Printers, keyboards, CRTs,
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Mar 24, 2013
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                                    William Donnelly wrote:
                                    > Personally, I can't really imagine running an older computer that has a
                                    > parallel and/or serial port. Unless I was only going to specifically
                                    > use it for retro-like interfacing to 1802's, etc.

                                    The whole point of serial and parallel ports is that they made it easy
                                    to talk to "dumb" hardware that didn't have computers. Printers,
                                    keyboards, CRTs, modems, EPROM programmers, meters, switches, lights,
                                    and all manner of simple little "gadgets" that people built (like the
                                    Membership Card). These gadgets were usually fully documented, so it was
                                    easy for users to see how it worked, and even write their own programs
                                    to use it in new and interesting ways.

                                    Today, few people want to build anything (present company excluded).
                                    Most people would rather buy things already built, that already have
                                    computers in them, and with all the programming already done for them.

                                    That means your PC and external gadgets can communicate using exotic
                                    complicated protocols. You won't get a manual explaining how it works.
                                    Indeed, the manufacturers don't *want* you to be able to program it! USB
                                    isn't built for *you* to use -- it's there so companies can sell you
                                    stuff, where *they* totally control how it gets used!

                                    > Luckily we do have USB to parallel and serial converters... for awhile.

                                    Yes, though I wish I could find one that *fully* implemented the old
                                    serial or parallel port (instead of barely supporting only a few of
                                    their features).

                                    --
                                    Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the
                                    complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
                                    --
                                    Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
                                  • thinkpast
                                    ... I d like to give a few words of support to Lee s design choice of a PC like parallel port; then point to some old-school code to drive it. The code and
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Mar 24, 2013
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                                      --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      > The whole point of serial and parallel ports is that they made it easy
                                      > to talk to "dumb" hardware that didn't have computers. Printers,
                                      > keyboards, CRTs, modems, EPROM programmers, meters, switches, lights,
                                      > and all manner of simple little "gadgets" that people built (like the
                                      > Membership Card). These gadgets were usually fully documented, so it was
                                      > easy for users to see how it worked, and even write their own programs
                                      > to use it in new and interesting ways.

                                      I'd like to give a few words of support to Lee's design choice of a PC like parallel port; then point to some old-school code to drive it. The code and methods are also informative for any other way to drive the M/S parallel port - it does not care what is at the other end, right? ;)

                                      In the days of Windows before Windows NT, and of course in the MS-DOS era, parallel ports were one of the two ways to connect anything to unmodified MS-DOS/Windows class systems. Parallel ports were used for ZIP drives, even hard drives and CD-ROM drives. And devices for collecting data and for control. Whole books were written about the "PC parallel port". Very little got in the way of using that port.

                                      In any event, the 1802 has a convenient DMA mode, as well as convenient I/O port decoding. So an 8-bit interface made sense to Lee at the time; and it made further sense to configure it to a classic PC parallel port. Summaries of design discussions are on the M/S card Web site, for those interested. the M/S card, after all, is a MINIMALIST design.

                                      Anyway....Lee reminded me that Josh Bensadon wrote a QBASIC program to operate the PC parallel port (under MS-DOS). While the program is on-site here in the "Membership" folder, I've also made it available under "software" on the M/S card site, via this Web page;

                                      http://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/mem_qbasic.html

                                      Those interested in the Windows issues about use of the parallel port, and how to operate the M/S port, can read the hardware note to that effect, again on the M/S card site.

                                      http://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/mship_pcport.html

                                      Herb Johnson
                                      retrotechnology.com
                                    • jdrose_8_bit
                                      I do not think anyone is complaining about the port that Mr. Hart used on the 1802 MC. It was used for all the great reasons you mentioned. Most of us are just
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Mar 24, 2013
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                                        I do not think anyone is complaining about the port that Mr. Hart used on the 1802 MC. It was used for all the great reasons you mentioned.

                                        Most of us are just simply trying to figure out how to interface with that port with the modern limited USB only computers that we have in our studies today.

                                        --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "thinkpast" <hjohnson@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Lee Hart <leeahart@> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > The whole point of serial and parallel ports is that they made it easy
                                        > > to talk to "dumb" hardware that didn't have computers. Printers,
                                        > > keyboards, CRTs, modems, EPROM programmers, meters, switches, lights,
                                        > > and all manner of simple little "gadgets" that people built (like the
                                        > > Membership Card). These gadgets were usually fully documented, so it was
                                        > > easy for users to see how it worked, and even write their own programs
                                        > > to use it in new and interesting ways.
                                        >
                                        > I'd like to give a few words of support to Lee's design choice of a PC like parallel port; then point to some old-school code to drive it. The code and methods are also informative for any other way to drive the M/S parallel port - it does not care what is at the other end, right? ;)
                                        >
                                        > In the days of Windows before Windows NT, and of course in the MS-DOS era, parallel ports were one of the two ways to connect anything to unmodified MS-DOS/Windows class systems. Parallel ports were used for ZIP drives, even hard drives and CD-ROM drives. And devices for collecting data and for control. Whole books were written about the "PC parallel port". Very little got in the way of using that port.
                                        >
                                        > In any event, the 1802 has a convenient DMA mode, as well as convenient I/O port decoding. So an 8-bit interface made sense to Lee at the time; and it made further sense to configure it to a classic PC parallel port. Summaries of design discussions are on the M/S card Web site, for those interested. the M/S card, after all, is a MINIMALIST design.
                                        >
                                        > Anyway....Lee reminded me that Josh Bensadon wrote a QBASIC program to operate the PC parallel port (under MS-DOS). While the program is on-site here in the "Membership" folder, I've also made it available under "software" on the M/S card site, via this Web page;
                                        >
                                        > http://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/mem_qbasic.html
                                        >
                                        > Those interested in the Windows issues about use of the parallel port, and how to operate the M/S port, can read the hardware note to that effect, again on the M/S card site.
                                        >
                                        > http://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/mship_pcport.html
                                        >
                                        > Herb Johnson
                                        > retrotechnology.com
                                        >
                                      • bill_rowe@rogers.com
                                        Kevin has a point about not reinventing the wheel. There are commercial usb to gpio adapters on the market. They may seem too expensive but with the
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Mar 25, 2013
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                                          Kevin has a point about not reinventing the wheel. There are commercial usb to gpio adapters on the market. They may seem too expensive but with the Bill/Chuck proposal we're going to need a USB->TTL serial cable at least.

                                          Chuck, when you have a notional board size and bill of materials we should cost out the whole solution and think about whether something commercial would do it. If we want to use your PC software(which I think is very nice) it will have to be programmable.

                                          I know that for AVR's there are things like "stickduino" that put an arduino on a usb stick which have lots of pins - is there some equivalent for PIC's? There is also the TI MSP430 launchpad kit which is $10 and includes a USB cable. Obviously we'd have to add the db25 connector.

                                          Speaking of that and with apologies in advance: Holy cr*p, look at how cheap THIS is!
                                          http://www.amazon.com/DB25-Motherboard-Parallel-Connector-cable/dp/B003V70P1I



                                          --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <kriceslo@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > An adapter board for the adapter board. (USB => RS-232 => ELF)
                                          >
                                          > I'm thinking there are already USB digital I/O boards out there:
                                          >
                                          > http://www.dlpdesign.com/usb/io14.shtml
                                          > http://www.dlpdesign.com/usb/usb1232h.shtml
                                          >
                                          > Just find the right one and the project is done.
                                          >
                                          > There is also a small footprint 8051 uC that has built-in USB and tons of I/O pins:
                                          >
                                          > http://www.silabs.com/products/mcu/usb/Pages/C8051T62x-T32x.aspx
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Bigham <chuck@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > It shouldn't be hard for me to make up a short kit (PCB + programmed Picaxe
                                          > > 20M2) for connecting the Membership Card to a PC via a serial connection. I
                                          > > think I have a board design around somewhere that I made up but then didn't
                                          > > actually produce. I'm not sure how much it would cost - the board place that
                                          > > I use (OSH Park) charges $1.66 an inch in multiples of 3 boards - but I
                                          > > don't have a board design to hand that I can check to see how bit it would
                                          > > be. The Picaxe 20M2 is $5.95.
                                          > >
                                          > > You'd have to provide your own USB-to-serial converter, but I can make sure
                                          > > the board supports the popular 6-pin interface for BUB boards (like I use)
                                          > > or FTDI cables, like Bill uses.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Chuck
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > From: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                          > > Of bill rowe
                                          > > Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 9:50 AM
                                          > > To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Subject: [cosmacelf] Who wants a membership card loader(not the olduino)?
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > I'm having great fun with the olduino and I'd be delighted if others wanted
                                          > > to make one BUT, I think a simpler solution for loading the membership card
                                          > > would be better for most people.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > There are a couple of dozen original MC's in the wild that have the parallel
                                          > > port loader arrangement. I think it was chuck bigham that made a PIC-based
                                          > > loader which I replicated with an AVR. If we could get a show of interest,
                                          > > Chuck or I or somebody else could make a small assembly that would connect
                                          > > an original membership card front panel to a USB serial cable.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > If 10 people wanted them I think they could be $5 to $10 each.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Chuck Bigham
                                          Kevin, I ll be interested in seeing what you come up with when you build a Membership Card loader from an 8051 uC. Thanks for volunteering to create it. Chuck
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Mar 26, 2013
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                                            Kevin,

                                            I’ll be interested in seeing what you come up with when you build a Membership Card loader from an 8051 uC. Thanks for volunteering to create it.

                                            Chuck

                                             

                                            From: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin
                                            Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 1:34 PM
                                            To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [cosmacelf] Re: Who wants a membership card loader(not the olduino)?

                                             

                                             

                                            jdrose,

                                            The USB boot loader that has been proposed connects to RS-232. A USB-to-RS-232 adapter (which are available off the shelf) is then required to interface RS-232 to your computer.

                                            I suggested there are USB to digital I/O products that are existing and available without creating an adapter that simply connects to another adapter!

                                            I found one or two digital I/O devices that would work that have drivers available for all platforms. Off-the-shelf with no R&D required.

                                            I also pointed to an 8051 uC that includes on-board USB support and 16-bits worth of I/O pins. Such a device could directly interface the membership card to USB (and power it as well). This 48 MHz uC likely could capture bus data to trace program execution and/or could control the 1802 clock acting as a virtual in-circuit debugger.

                                            All via USB. (Some assembly required) No pun intended.


                                          • Kevin
                                            An off the shelf digital I/O board or PIC or Arduino board would save a lot of R&D and be easily attained. There s a whole range of stuff out there and I have
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Mar 26, 2013
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                                              An off the shelf digital I/O board or PIC or Arduino board would save a lot of R&D and be easily attained. There's a whole range of stuff out there and I have just begun to sift through it all. Price point is a major requirement, and shouldn't be difficult to meet considering just a dozen I/O pins is all that is needed.

                                              --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Chuck Bigham <chuck@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Kevin,
                                              >
                                              > I'll be interested in seeing what you come up with when you build a
                                              > Membership Card loader from an 8051 uC. Thanks for volunteering to create
                                              > it.
                                              >
                                              > Chuck
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > From: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                              > Of Kevin
                                              > Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 1:34 PM
                                              > To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Subject: [cosmacelf] Re: Who wants a membership card loader(not the
                                              > olduino)?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > jdrose,
                                              >
                                              > The USB boot loader that has been proposed connects to RS-232. A
                                              > USB-to-RS-232 adapter (which are available off the shelf) is then required
                                              > to interface RS-232 to your computer.
                                              >
                                              > I suggested there are USB to digital I/O products that are existing and
                                              > available without creating an adapter that simply connects to another
                                              > adapter!
                                              >
                                              > I found one or two digital I/O devices that would work that have drivers
                                              > available for all platforms. Off-the-shelf with no R&D required.
                                              >
                                              > I also pointed to an 8051 uC that includes on-board USB support and 16-bits
                                              > worth of I/O pins. Such a device could directly interface the membership
                                              > card to USB (and power it as well). This 48 MHz uC likely could capture bus
                                              > data to trace program execution and/or could control the 1802 clock acting
                                              > as a virtual in-circuit debugger.
                                              >
                                              > All via USB. (Some assembly required) No pun intended.
                                              >
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