Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Mini Boot Strap]

Expand Messages
  • joshbensadon
    ... Well, not all is lost, perhaps there could be a calibration technique (using Q LED) to adjust the PC s output to match the MC. Again, emphasis is on
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 17, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:

      > >> The PC has to know the*exact* frequency the ELF's clock, so it can
      > >> send data at exactly the right rate. That's a tough problem...

      Well, not all is lost, perhaps there could be a calibration technique (using Q LED) to adjust the PC's output to match the MC. Again, emphasis is on changing the readily available PC software instead of modifying the MC.

      > The supercapacitor on the Membership Card is
      > there precisely so you *don't* have to reload
      > programs every time you > turn it on.
      > A couple AA cells will maintain memory for a year or more

      Oh yeah, that's right. I keep forgetting that. Perhaps my brain needs a super-cap? A monitor could be loaded in the upper 16K, a long branch can then take us there. Then, only a loss of power will erase it, or a bugged program. Too bad there wasn't a jumper to make the top 16K into ROM (selective memory protect).

      > Well, let's see... There may be a better format to minimize the 1802
      > loader size and still be frequency independent. Can a PC produce
      > *exactly* the desired number of cycles of audio? If so, your coding
      > could be a tone that is on for 1 to 256 cycles to indicate 1 to 100 hex
      > (where 100 represents 00 with 256 cycles). Then have a silent pause
      > between the tone burst for each byte.

      I don't see why not. I taught my PC to count when it was new out of the box. This counting method looks good, just put a long pause between bytes. Even if it takes a half a minute to load, it can load a more sophisticated bootstrap in to the upper 16K and away you go!


      > The 1802 algorithm would be something like:
      >
      > next: ldi 0 ; byte = 0
      > plo re ; store at R2.0
      > phi rf ; timer = 0
      > plo rf
      > loop1: bn4 loop1 ; wait for EF4=1
      > ; aha: a tone burst has started
      > inc re ; byte=byte+1
      > loop2: ; repeat...
      > dec rf ; decrement timer
      > ghi rf ; get timer
      > bz save ; done if timer=0
      > b4 loop2 ; ...until EF4=0
      > ; timer=0: end of tone burst, so we have a byte
      > glo re ; get byte
      > save: stxd ; save byte at m(R2) and dec R2
      > br next ; loop for next byte
      >
      > It's still 18 bytes, but shouldn't care about frequency (over a pretty
      > wide range).

      Looks like it should work. The pulses would have to end on a "1" for a long duration, but that's ok, the audio output should be capable of low frequencies, 100hz will give a whole 10mS of "1".

      1+1+1+1. So that's 4 instructions to complete loop2, 32 cycles times 65281 = 2 million cycles. So at 2Mhz, it's a 1 second loop.
      But, at 1Mhz, using just the low register gives a delay of 2mSec. Thus an audio frequency of less than 500Hz will trigger the pause.
      Frequencies of 4Khz could be used to do the counting.
      That amounts to a transfer speed of about 28 bytes per second.
      You're not going to stream video at that speed, but for a quick loading boot strap, good enough!

      For now, I'm still working on a replacement 8080A CPU board for the IMSAI at a local museum. Should be done in a month.

      :)J
    • DougCrawford
      So the membership is loadable from a parallel port, is this just an interesting exercise or am I missing the point of this loader?
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 17, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        So the membership is loadable from a parallel port,
        is this just an interesting exercise or am I missing
        the point of this loader?

        --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "joshbensadon" <joshbensadon@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Lee Hart <leeahart@> wrote:
        >
        > > >> The PC has to know the*exact* frequency the ELF's clock, so it can
        > > >> send data at exactly the right rate. That's a tough problem...
        >
        > Well, not all is lost, perhaps there could be a calibration technique (using Q LED) to adjust the PC's output to match the MC. Again, emphasis is on changing the readily available PC software instead of modifying the MC.
        >
        > > The supercapacitor on the Membership Card is
        > > there precisely so you *don't* have to reload
        > > programs every time you > turn it on.
        > > A couple AA cells will maintain memory for a year or more
        >
        > Oh yeah, that's right. I keep forgetting that. Perhaps my brain needs a super-cap? A monitor could be loaded in the upper 16K, a long branch can then take us there. Then, only a loss of power will erase it, or a bugged program. Too bad there wasn't a jumper to make the top 16K into ROM (selective memory protect).
        >
        > > Well, let's see... There may be a better format to minimize the 1802
        > > loader size and still be frequency independent. Can a PC produce
        > > *exactly* the desired number of cycles of audio? If so, your coding
        > > could be a tone that is on for 1 to 256 cycles to indicate 1 to 100 hex
        > > (where 100 represents 00 with 256 cycles). Then have a silent pause
        > > between the tone burst for each byte.
        >
        > I don't see why not. I taught my PC to count when it was new out of the box. This counting method looks good, just put a long pause between bytes. Even if it takes a half a minute to load, it can load a more sophisticated bootstrap in to the upper 16K and away you go!
        >
        >
        > > The 1802 algorithm would be something like:
        > >
        > > next: ldi 0 ; byte = 0
        > > plo re ; store at R2.0
        > > phi rf ; timer = 0
        > > plo rf
        > > loop1: bn4 loop1 ; wait for EF4=1
        > > ; aha: a tone burst has started
        > > inc re ; byte=byte+1
        > > loop2: ; repeat...
        > > dec rf ; decrement timer
        > > ghi rf ; get timer
        > > bz save ; done if timer=0
        > > b4 loop2 ; ...until EF4=0
        > > ; timer=0: end of tone burst, so we have a byte
        > > glo re ; get byte
        > > save: stxd ; save byte at m(R2) and dec R2
        > > br next ; loop for next byte
        > >
        > > It's still 18 bytes, but shouldn't care about frequency (over a pretty
        > > wide range).
        >
        > Looks like it should work. The pulses would have to end on a "1" for a long duration, but that's ok, the audio output should be capable of low frequencies, 100hz will give a whole 10mS of "1".
        >
        > 1+1+1+1. So that's 4 instructions to complete loop2, 32 cycles times 65281 = 2 million cycles. So at 2Mhz, it's a 1 second loop.
        > But, at 1Mhz, using just the low register gives a delay of 2mSec. Thus an audio frequency of less than 500Hz will trigger the pause.
        > Frequencies of 4Khz could be used to do the counting.
        > That amounts to a transfer speed of about 28 bytes per second.
        > You're not going to stream video at that speed, but for a quick loading boot strap, good enough!
        >
        > For now, I'm still working on a replacement 8080A CPU board for the IMSAI at a local museum. Should be done in a month.
        >
        > :)J
        >
      • joshbensadon
        ... Aside from being interesting and fun, the idea is that parallel ports are becoming a thing of the past. Any vintage computer collector will have no
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 18, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "DougCrawford" <touchetek@...> wrote:
          >
          > So the membership is loadable from a parallel port,
          > is this just an interesting exercise or am I missing
          > the point of this loader?

          Aside from being interesting and fun, the idea is that parallel ports are becoming a thing of the past. Any vintage computer collector will have no problem finding and running a PC with an LPT port, but this project is geared to allow the MC to be loaded from any modern devices. With an optical interface, it can be programmed from anything that has a display. The first idea was using the audio output, which as far as I've seen is universal on all computers. As long as we have ears, computers will have sound output. But the idea of an optical interface is even better (no boot strap required on the MC). And as long as we have eyes...

          :)J
        • Lee Hart
          ... The problem is that many PCs don t have parallel ports. Even if they do, modern versions of Windows won t let you talk to it. People would like a standard
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 18, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            On 3/18/2013 12:32 AM, DougCrawford wrote:
            > So the [Membership Card] is loadable from a parallel port.
            > Is this just an interesting exercise or am I missing the
            > point of this loader?

            The problem is that many PCs don't have parallel ports. Even if they do,
            modern versions of Windows won't let you talk to it.

            People would like a standard way to load it from the PC they have,
            without having to build or buy extra "gadgets".

            Part of the challenge is that everyone's PC is different. Different I/O
            ports, different operating systems... some are even Macs!
            --
            A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
            nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
            -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
            --
            Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
          • Patrick Draper
            ... The FT245BM chip has a bit bang mode. USB on one side, whatever bits you want come out the other side. Can a USB port be bit banged so it can be used
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 18, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              On 03/18/2013 03:56 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
              > Part of the challenge is that everyone's PC is different. Different
              > I/O ports, different operating systems... some are even Macs!

              The FT245BM chip has a bit bang mode. USB on one side, whatever bits you
              want come out the other side.

              Can a USB port be bit banged so it can be used without any special USB chip?



              --
              Patrick Draper Austin, Texas
              pdrap@...
              Father Order runs at a good pace,
              but old Mother Chaos is winning the race.
            • Kevin
              ... No. The protocol is not trivial and is very high speed.
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 18, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Draper <pdrap@...> wrote:
                >
                > Can a USB port be bit banged so it can be used without any special USB chip?
                >

                No. The protocol is not trivial and is very high speed.
              • DougCrawford
                No doubt different bootstrap solutions are interesting & fun. Some great innovative ideas are being proposed! Love it! But the problem of a ubiquitous bootload
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 18, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  No doubt different bootstrap solutions are interesting & fun.
                  Some great innovative ideas are being proposed!
                  Love it!

                  But the problem of a ubiquitous bootload solution, at least for the membership card, is solved with Bill's Olduino, yes?
                  It unfortunately isn't suitable for a VIP, as I am exploring.
                  But it seems to me PICs and AVRs that have USB interfaces built in,
                  sample code to work with, which can catch the data and do local bit banging for us is pretty powerful for bootstrap interfacing.

                  Following my positive experience with Arduino- quick compiling, downloading to persistent storage, and GO... I am concluding that Bill has the right idea with Olduino. In fact, I think all the old machines ought to be set up today to run like an Arduino. Each requires its own USB-to-persistent-memory-and-reset solution. I'm liking FRAM as the memory. Essentially we get cheap "development system" hardware. Its all short of in circuit debugging though. I presume most of us are content debugging on PC based emulators.

                  I'm thinking I would prefer this to having solid state file systems which has been a focus of a lot of retro work. I'm not missing this with Arduino. I guess it depends on your purpose; if you are trying to run old applications that use file system resources, you'd want the solid state file system solutions... emulated floppies and hard drives.

                  I guess the holy grail would be putting the various platforms development tools under an IDE. Not my forte there.

                  Interested in seeing if other folks see it the same way as I do.
                  ...

                  --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > On 3/18/2013 12:32 AM, DougCrawford wrote:
                  > > So the [Membership Card] is loadable from a parallel port.
                  > > Is this just an interesting exercise or am I missing the
                  > > point of this loader?
                  >
                  > The problem is that many PCs don't have parallel ports. Even if they do,
                  > modern versions of Windows won't let you talk to it.
                  >
                  > People would like a standard way to load it from the PC they have,
                  > without having to build or buy extra "gadgets".
                  >
                  > Part of the challenge is that everyone's PC is different. Different I/O
                  > ports, different operating systems... some are even Macs!
                  > --
                  > A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
                  > nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
                  > -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
                  > --
                  > Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
                  >
                • Patrick Draper
                  ... USB protocol? This isn t the USB protocol. Let me rephrase it another way. USB has 4 pins, two are ground and there are two others. Can I blink those two
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 18, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On 03/18/2013 07:04 PM, Kevin wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Draper<pdrap@...> wrote:
                    >> Can a USB port be bit banged so it can be used without any special USB chip?
                    >>
                    > No. The protocol is not trivial and is very high speed.
                    >

                    USB protocol? This isn't the USB protocol. Let me rephrase it another
                    way. USB has 4 pins, two are ground and there are two others. Can I
                    blink those two other pins to signal an 1802?

                    No USB protocol here. Direct manipulation of pins on a USB port on a
                    Windows machine to signal some data in a bit bang style.

                    --
                    Patrick Draper Austin, Texas
                    pdrap@...
                    Father Order runs at a good pace,
                    but old Mother Chaos is winning the race.
                  • Lee Hart
                    ... I can take a stab at answering this. To directly control the USB data pins, you would have to find out what physical chip the computer uses to implement
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 18, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On 3/18/2013 10:42 PM, Patrick Draper wrote:
                      > USB protocol? This isn't the USB protocol. Let me rephrase it another
                      > way. USB has 4 pins, two are ground and there are two others. Can I
                      > blink those two other pins to signal an 1802?
                      >
                      > No USB protocol here. Direct manipulation of pins on a USB port on a
                      > Windows machine to signal some data in a bit bang style.

                      I can take a stab at answering this.

                      To directly control the USB data pins, you would have to find out what
                      physical chip the computer uses to implement its USB. And, you would
                      have to find out how to reprogram that chip (perhaps it can be
                      reflashed). In some cases, this is a more-or-less generic micro (PIC,
                      AVR, etc.) These micros have configuration ports that can be initialized
                      to use the pin for USB, or for general purpose inputs and outputs, where
                      you *can* set the bits high or low, or read them.

                      There may also be strange ways to do it, like deliberately switching the
                      USB port on/off with PC hardware intended to put the USB port to sleep
                      for a power-saving mode.

                      So it is *possible*... but it is also very unlikely that anyone but a
                      dedicated "hacker" would go to the trouble to figure out how to do it.
                      And, his solution may only work on his particular PC, and not yours.

                      --
                      We live in a Newtonian world of Einsteinian physics ruled by
                      Frankenstein logic. -- David Russell
                      --
                      Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
                    • bill rowe
                      Not to blow my own horn but you can t imagine how slick it is to have the code-and-go experience with the olduino. It is SO neat to be able to: crib code from
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 19, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Not to blow my own horn but you can't imagine how slick it is to have the code-and-go experience with the olduino.  It is SO neat to be able to: crib code from the arduino, pic or whatever; hook up off-the-shelf-peripherals like rangefinders, lcds, clock chips, ethernet cards etc; push a button and have the code compiled and squirted down to the MC in seconds; stick in debugging prints and extra routines within the C language; tear up your project and start over when a new idea strikes.

                        The MC cpu card is a great platform because it's compact and reliable.  The olduino card makes it compact reliable and useful(for some definitions of useful!).

                        The current generation of olduino hardware is not going to appeal to everyone but a new front panel or an adapter for the old one that let you do code-and-go over a usb->serial cable would be a great addition to the MC.


                        http://olduino.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/hello-world/


                        To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
                        From: touchetek@...
                        Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 00:12:02 +0000
                        Subject: [cosmacelf] Re: Mini Boot Strap]

                         

                        No doubt different bootstrap solutions are interesting & fun.
                        Some great innovative ideas are being proposed!
                        Love it!

                        But the problem of a ubiquitous bootload solution, at least for the membership card, is solved with Bill's Olduino, yes?
                        It unfortunately isn't suitable for a VIP, as I am exploring.
                        But it seems to me PICs and AVRs that have USB interfaces built in,
                        sample code to work with, which can catch the data and do local bit banging for us is pretty powerful for bootstrap interfacing.

                        Following my positive experience with Arduino- quick compiling, downloading to persistent storage, and GO... I am concluding that Bill has the right idea with Olduino. In fact, I think all the old machines ought to be set up today to run like an Arduino. Each requires its own USB-to-persistent-memory-and-reset solution. I'm liking FRAM as the memory. Essentially we get cheap "development system" hardware. Its all short of in circuit debugging though. I presume most of us are content debugging on PC based emulators.

                        I'm thinking I would prefer this to having solid state file systems which has been a focus of a lot of retro work. I'm not missing this with Arduino. I guess it depends on your purpose; if you are trying to run old applications that use file system resources, you'd want the solid state file system solutions... emulated floppies and hard drives.

                        I guess the holy grail would be putting the various platforms development tools under an IDE. Not my forte there.

                        Interested in seeing if other folks see it the same way as I do.
                        ...

                        --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > On 3/18/2013 12:32 AM, DougCrawford wrote:
                        > > So the [Membership Card] is loadable from a parallel port.
                        > > Is this just an interesting exercise or am I missing the
                        > > point of this loader?
                        >
                        > The problem is that many PCs don't have parallel ports. Even if they do,
                        > modern versions of Windows won't let you talk to it.
                        >
                        > People would like a standard way to load it from the PC they have,
                        > without having to build or buy extra "gadgets".
                        >
                        > Part of the challenge is that everyone's PC is different. Different I/O
                        > ports, different operating systems... some are even Macs!
                        > --
                        > A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
                        > nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
                        > -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
                        > --
                        > Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
                        >


                      • Kevin
                        Patrick, Just buy a $9 USB to RS-232 adapter off the shelf and you ve solved the issue.
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 19, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Patrick, Just buy a $9 USB to RS-232 adapter off the shelf and you've solved the issue.

                          --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Draper <pdrap@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > On 03/18/2013 07:04 PM, Kevin wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Draper<pdrap@> wrote:
                          > >> Can a USB port be bit banged so it can be used without any special USB chip?
                          > >>
                          > > No. The protocol is not trivial and is very high speed.
                          > >
                          >
                          > USB protocol? This isn't the USB protocol. Let me rephrase it another
                          > way. USB has 4 pins, two are ground and there are two others. Can I
                          > blink those two other pins to signal an 1802?
                          >
                          > No USB protocol here. Direct manipulation of pins on a USB port on a
                          > Windows machine to signal some data in a bit bang style.
                          >
                          > --
                          > Patrick Draper Austin, Texas
                          > pdrap@...
                          > Father Order runs at a good pace,
                          > but old Mother Chaos is winning the race.
                          >
                        • Lee Hart
                          ... Bill is doing great work in that direction, but it s still under development. It works for him, but not yet for anyone else. This tends to be the way it
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 19, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            DougCrawford wrote:
                            > the problem of a ubiquitous bootload solution, at least for the
                            > membership card, is solved with Bill's Olduino, yes?

                            Bill is doing great work in that direction, but it's still under
                            development. It works for him, but not yet for anyone else.

                            This tends to be the way it goes for most hobby projects. People get it
                            working for themselves, but then "run out of steam" before it becomes
                            available to others.

                            There are also lots of other ELF systems. Because ELFs are usually home
                            built, there are lots of differences between them. That makes it harder
                            to find a "one size fits all" solution that we can all use.

                            But there is hope. All 1802's have that Q output, and the four EF1-EF4
                            flag inputs. These are always available, and can be used for serial I/O.
                            But they do require software; a loader program running on the 1802. That
                            was the point of Josh's work on a minimalist loader program. It should
                            be something that can be typed into any ELF system, to allow it to
                            receive serial.

                            The other half of this is the PC itself. The days when serial and
                            parallel ports were standard are gone. Now all we get are USB ports, and
                            they require some pretty sophisticated hardware and software to use.
                            It's kind of a "beat the problem to death with a hammer" kind of
                            solution; but at least hammers are cheap and available. Hardware and
                            software to convert USB to serial is available, and does 99% of the job.
                            (The remaining 1% ranges from "trivial" if you're an expert, to
                            "impossible" if are a rank novice.)

                            Josh's idea is to use the PC's sound card output instead. *IF* the right
                            audio format can be found, then outputting data from the PC is as easy
                            as playing a sound file. People don't need to buy a USB-to-serial
                            adapter, or figure out how to use it. At this point, the unknown (in my
                            mind) is to find out exactly what the sound output from a PC can do.

                            > It unfortunately isn't suitable for a VIP, as I am exploring.

                            It seems that any of the above would be suitable for a VIP.

                            > But it seems to me PICs and AVRs that have USB interfaces built in,
                            > sample code to work with, which can catch the data and do local bit
                            > banging for us is pretty powerful for bootstrap interfacing.

                            If you're comfortable with programming PICs or AVRs (or any other
                            micro), this is a viable strategy. Just be aware that most people
                            aren't. Very few will "follow in your footsteps" if it requires that
                            they buy a development system for some micro, learn to program it, and
                            build some sort of hardware interface to use it.

                            > Following my positive experience with Arduino- quick compiling,
                            > downloading to persistent storage, and GO... I am concluding that
                            > Bill has the right idea with Olduino. In fact, I think all the old
                            > machines ought to be set up today to run like an Arduino.

                            Keep in mind that the Arduino is the result of hundreds of people
                            spending thousands of hours to create it, debug it, document it, and
                            then mass produce it so the prices are reasonable. Are we "up" for that
                            kind of effort on another platform like the 1802? Bill's work is
                            wonderful; but he's working all alone. You know how human nature it:
                            There are lots of people who would like to help, but in the end they
                            don't contribute anything but noise.

                            --
                            Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any
                            good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken

                            --
                            Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
                          • bill rowe
                            I have a few boards left that I d be happy to let people have. They do require soldering a couple of surface mount chips and programming the avr. I d be
                            Message 13 of 16 , Mar 19, 2013
                            • 1 Attachment
                            • 1 MB
                            I have a few boards left that I'd be happy to let people have.  They do require soldering a couple of surface mount chips and programming the avr.  I'd be willing to do the surface mount soldering and program the avr but I'd have to recover the parts cost.

                            On the PC(or mac) you really just need avrdude(part of arduino) to load hex files but the setup I'm using with textpad, the c compiler, and a terminal program is pretty sweet.  You need a usb-serial cable to connect the olduino to the PC.

                            You can see the board image and schematic here. https://olduino.wordpress.com/2012/08/20/version-2-hardware/

                            Oh, and I converted my membership card to female headers and added an extra couple to bring up other signals(currently just N0).  Here's a picture of the olduino board beside the MC cpu card.

                            For people who have used arduinos this probably all seems perfectly reasonable.  For others, it may be too much fuss. It does work splendidly though.



                            > To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
                            > From: leeahart@...
                            > Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 15:29:46 -0600
                            > Subject: Re: [cosmacelf] Re: Mini Boot Strap]
                            >
                            > On 3/19/2013 5:50 AM, bill rowe wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Not to blow my own horn but you can't imagine how slick it is to have
                            > > the code-and-go experience with the olduino. It is SO neat to be able
                            > > to: crib code from the arduino, pic or whatever; hook up
                            > > off-the-shelf-peripherals like rangefinders, lcds, clock chips, ethernet
                            > > cards etc; push a button and have the code compiled and squirted down to
                            > > the MC in seconds; stick in debugging prints and extra routines within
                            > > the C language; tear up your project and start over when a new idea strikes.
                            > >
                            > > The MC cpu card is a great platform because it's compact and reliable.
                            > > The olduino card makes it compact reliable and useful(for some
                            > > definitions of useful!).
                            > >
                            > > The current generation of olduino hardware is not going to appeal to
                            > > everyone but a new front panel or an adapter for the old one that let
                            > > you do code-and-go over a usb->serial cable would be a great addition to
                            > > the MC.
                            >
                            > Bill, what do we need to do to turn your Olduino into a "finished
                            > product"? For instance, I can layout a PC board, if I know what circuit
                            > you need on it.
                            >
                            > --
                            > For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, obvious,
                            > and wrong. -- H.L. Mencken
                            > --
                            > Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > ========================================================
                            > Visit the COSMAC ELF website at http://www.cosmacelf.comYahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cosmacelf/
                            >
                            > <*> Your email settings:
                            > Individual Email | Traditional
                            >
                            > <*> To change settings online go to:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cosmacelf/join
                            > (Yahoo! ID required)
                            >
                            > <*> To change settings via email:
                            > cosmacelf-digest@yahoogroups.com
                            > cosmacelf-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > cosmacelf-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                          • Lee Hart
                            ... Bill, what do we need to do to turn your Olduino into a finished product ? For instance, I can layout a PC board, if I know what circuit you need on it.
                            Message 14 of 16 , Mar 19, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On 3/19/2013 5:50 AM, bill rowe wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Not to blow my own horn but you can't imagine how slick it is to have
                              > the code-and-go experience with the olduino. It is SO neat to be able
                              > to: crib code from the arduino, pic or whatever; hook up
                              > off-the-shelf-peripherals like rangefinders, lcds, clock chips, ethernet
                              > cards etc; push a button and have the code compiled and squirted down to
                              > the MC in seconds; stick in debugging prints and extra routines within
                              > the C language; tear up your project and start over when a new idea strikes.
                              >
                              > The MC cpu card is a great platform because it's compact and reliable.
                              > The olduino card makes it compact reliable and useful(for some
                              > definitions of useful!).
                              >
                              > The current generation of olduino hardware is not going to appeal to
                              > everyone but a new front panel or an adapter for the old one that let
                              > you do code-and-go over a usb->serial cable would be a great addition to
                              > the MC.

                              Bill, what do we need to do to turn your Olduino into a "finished
                              product"? For instance, I can layout a PC board, if I know what circuit
                              you need on it.

                              --
                              For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, obvious,
                              and wrong. -- H.L. Mencken
                              --
                              Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
                            • Patrick Draper
                              ... I have one of those, they definitely work very well. I think there was a question about using a port without any extra hardware. -- Patrick Draper
                              Message 15 of 16 , Mar 19, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                On 03/19/2013 11:05 AM, Kevin wrote:
                                > Patrick, Just buy a $9 USB to RS-232 adapter off the shelf and you've solved the issue.
                                >
                                >
                                I have one of those, they definitely work very well. I think there was a
                                question about using a port without any extra hardware.

                                --
                                Patrick Draper Austin, Texas
                                pdrap@...
                                Father Order runs at a good pace,
                                but old Mother Chaos is winning the race.
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.