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Off topic but pretty wonderful PDP8 replica by spare time gizmos

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  • bill_rowe@rogers.com
    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sparetimegizmos/classic-pdp8-replica $599 is quite a commitment but 30 people have stepped up so it will go ahead on
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 22, 2013
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      http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sparetimegizmos/classic-pdp8-replica

      $599 is quite a commitment but 30 people have stepped up so it will go ahead on kickstarter. There's a very pretty front panel - it's worth having a look just for the eye-candy.

      congrats!
    • William Donnelly
      It would have been cool to have. Not that I could have afforded one, but that s what I get for not keeping up with the other forums. It s easy to miss a lot.
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 22, 2013
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        It would have been cool to have.
        Not that I could have afforded one, but that's what I get for not
        keeping up with the other forums. It's easy to miss a lot.
        Kickstarter is a good way to do it. Indiegogo is good, too.
        One is better than the other, but I forget which.

        – Bill

        On 2/22/2013 4:58 AM, bill_rowe@... wrote:
         

        http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sparetimegizmos/classic-pdp8-replica

        $599 is quite a commitment but 30 people have stepped up so it will go ahead on kickstarter. There's a very pretty front panel - it's worth having a look just for the eye-candy.

        congrats!


      • Andrew Wasson
        Fantastic! Crowd-sourced funding is a perfect model to get more interest in these gizmos. Good on ya Bob! Andrew
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 22, 2013
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          Fantastic! Crowd-sourced funding is a perfect model to get more interest in these gizmos. Good on ya Bob!

          Andrew



          On 2013-02-22, at 4:58 AM, bill_rowe@... wrote:

           

          http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sparetimegizmos/classic-pdp8-replica

          $599 is quite a commitment but 30 people have stepped up so it will go ahead on kickstarter. There's a very pretty front panel - it's worth having a look just for the eye-candy.

          congrats!



        • garydidio
          I noticed all the pledges are gone. Is it too late to get on the list? Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T ... From: Andrew Wasson Sender:
          Message 4 of 17 , Feb 22, 2013
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            I noticed all the pledges are gone. Is it too late to get on the list?
            Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

            From: Andrew Wasson <awasson@...>
            Sender: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 09:41:46 -0800
            To: <cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com>
            ReplyTo: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [cosmacelf] Off topic but pretty wonderful PDP8 replica by spare time gizmos

             

            Fantastic! Crowd-sourced funding is a perfect model to get more interest in these gizmos. Good on ya Bob!

            Andrew



            On 2013-02-22, at 4:58 AM, bill_rowe@... wrote:

             

            http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sparetimegizmos/classic-pdp8-replica

            $599 is quite a commitment but 30 people have stepped up so it will go ahead on kickstarter. There's a very pretty front panel - it's worth having a look just for the eye-candy.

            congrats!



          • William Donnelly
            He says he only had enough to make 30. It s actually amazing that 30 people want something like that. – Bill ... He says he only had enough to make 30. It s
            Message 5 of 17 , Feb 22, 2013
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              He says he only had enough to make 30.
              It's actually amazing that 30 people want something like that.

              – Bill

              On 2/22/2013 9:49 AM, didio4@... wrote:
               

              I noticed all the pledges are gone. Is it too late to get on the list?

            • rarecoinbuyer
              Interesting but way more money than have. I am pretty sure this is the same outfit that made a run of SBC6120 PDP-8 Single Board Computer kits back in 2003 or
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 22, 2013
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                Interesting but way more money than have.

                I am pretty sure this is the same outfit that made a run of SBC6120 PDP-8 Single Board Computer kits back in 2003 or so. They were a little more affordable but have long since been sold out.

                An inexpensive way to dink around with a "PDP" is to get an old Intellivision console. They run a CP1610. Or more conveniently Nostalgia and SDK-1600.

                Perhaps someone should do a run of 50 VIP111 replicas or so. Though I suspect that blue molded cover would be expensive to reproduce. :-)

                --- JD

                --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "bill_rowe@..." <bill_rowe_ottawa@...> wrote:
                >
                > http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sparetimegizmos/classic-pdp8-replica
                >
                > $599 is quite a commitment but 30 people have stepped up so it will go ahead on kickstarter. There's a very pretty front panel - it's worth having a look just for the eye-candy.
                >
                > congrats!
                >
              • Lee Hart
                ... Especially at that price ($599 kit, $999 assembled). Is the PDP-8 really that popular? -- Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 22, 2013
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                  On 2/22/2013 11:59 AM, William Donnelly wrote:
                  > He says he only had enough to make 30.
                  > It's actually amazing that 30 people want something like that.

                  Especially at that price ($599 kit, $999 assembled). Is the PDP-8 really
                  that popular?

                  --
                  Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the
                  complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
                  --
                  Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
                • bill rowe
                  well, it s only thirty and an AWFUL lot of people started commercial or educational programming with pdp-8 s.
                  Message 8 of 17 , Feb 22, 2013
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                    well, it's only thirty and an AWFUL lot of people started commercial or educational programming with pdp-8's.  

                    > To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: leeahart@...
                    > Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:57:00 -0600
                    > Subject: Re: [cosmacelf] Off topic but pretty wonderful PDP8 replica by spare time gizmos
                    >
                    > On 2/22/2013 11:59 AM, William Donnelly wrote:
                    > > He says he only had enough to make 30.
                    > > It's actually amazing that 30 people want something like that.
                    >
                    > Especially at that price ($599 kit, $999 assembled). Is the PDP-8 really
                    > that popular?
                    >
                    > --
                    > Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the
                    > complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
                    > --
                    > Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
                    >
                    >
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                  • Josh Bensadon
                    ... I saw it advertised on the M.A.R.C.H. forum. They were up to 13 sold/pledged at that time 2 weeks ago. There are lots of vintage computer guys coming
                    Message 9 of 17 , Feb 22, 2013
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                      --- On Fri, 2/22/13, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:

                      > > He says he only had enough to make 30.
                      > > It's actually amazing that 30 people want something
                      > like that.
                      >
                      > Especially at that price ($599 kit, $999 assembled). Is the
                      > PDP-8 really
                      > that popular?
                      >

                      I saw it advertised on the M.A.R.C.H. forum. They were up to 13 sold/pledged at that time 2 weeks ago. There are lots of vintage computer guys coming out, the price of vintage computers on ebay is rising since there's more demand. $600 for the kit is what it can be sold for. And that does not include many of the common parts, only the custom and unique parts.

                      I was going to buy one, but then I decided not to. Not because of the money, but because it's not the type of computer I want to collect.

                      Regards,
                      Josh
                    • rarecoinbuyer
                      The most popular version of the PDP-11 will be 40 years old next year. The PDP-8 50 years old not long after that. The Commodore 64 was 30 years old last year.
                      Message 10 of 17 , Feb 22, 2013
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                        The most popular version of the PDP-11 will be 40 years old next year. The PDP-8 50 years old not long after that. The Commodore 64 was 30 years old last year.

                        I think a lot of the old, famous computers are following on the coattails of the current retro boom.

                        The PDP-8 has a pretty good following. According to Wiki 300,000 models of the PDP-8 were sold. A lot of people our age played their first computer game on a PDP-8. There is even a real PDP-8 online that you can control remotely through your browser.





                        --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > On 2/22/2013 11:59 AM, William Donnelly wrote:
                        > > He says he only had enough to make 30.
                        > > It's actually amazing that 30 people want something like that.
                        >
                        > Especially at that price ($599 kit, $999 assembled). Is the PDP-8 really
                        > that popular?
                        >
                        > --
                        > Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the
                        > complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
                        > --
                        > Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
                        >
                      • William Donnelly
                        I figure one of these days I might be buying a Nova 2 kit, if there are enough people around interested in those. I don t remember if I mentioned this, I
                        Message 11 of 17 , Feb 22, 2013
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                          I figure one of these days I might be buying a Nova 2 kit, if there
                          are enough people around interested in those.

                          I don't remember if I mentioned this, I probably didn't because it's
                          so embarrassing, and it physically hurts to think about, but I used to
                          have the Nova 2 system I used in High School. Years later I went back
                          and bought it. I also had a Nova 3 system. When I got sick I hauled them
                          down to the electronics recyclers. And a bunch of other stuff. But I kept
                          the Nova 2 front panel. I'll never not regret doing that. Very sad.
                          If I hadn't been so out of it, I would have tried to sell them cheap, or
                          give them away to someone, or to a computer museum or something.

                          PDP's were pretty popular, especially in colleges and universities,
                          but also business. I think they were second to IBM, weren't they?
                          (in the minicomputer market) I worked on the PDP 11/70, and then
                          some VAX whatevers.

                          I think the very first Asteroids-like game, or it might have been
                          Lunar Lander, was written at MIT on a PDP 8 (PDP 1??) using an
                          oscilloscope for vector graphics output and rheostats for inputs.

                          What I like to call CRAV Computing seems to be fairly popular, and
                          getting increasingly so, pretty much across the board. In some ways
                          it's probably going to keep doing so.

                          – Bill

                          On 2/22/2013 2:06 PM, rarecoinbuyer wrote:
                           

                          The most popular version of the PDP-11 will be 40 years old next year. The PDP-8 50 years old not long after that. The Commodore 64 was 30 years old last year.

                          I think a lot of the old, famous computers are following on the coattails of the current retro boom.

                          The PDP-8 has a pretty good following. According to Wiki 300,000 models of the PDP-8 were sold. A lot of people our age played their first computer game on a PDP-8. There is even a real PDP-8 online that you can control remotely through your browser.

                          --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, Lee Hart wrote:


                        • rarecoinbuyer
                          Yes. That is where I first encountered the PDP-8.
                          Message 12 of 17 , Feb 22, 2013
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                            Yes. That is where I first encountered the PDP-8.

                            --- In cosmacelf, William Donnelly wrote:
                            >
                            > PDP's were pretty popular, especially in colleges and universities,
                            >
                          • thinkpast
                            ... I disagree with the idea that old famous computers are following the current retro boom . They are two somewhat different trends and groups. I ll try to
                            Message 13 of 17 , Feb 27, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "rarecoinbuyer" <rarecoinbuyer@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > The most popular version of the PDP-11 will be 40 years old next year. The PDP-8 50 years old not long after that. The Commodore 64 was 30 years old last year.
                              >
                              > I think a lot of the old, famous computers are following on the coattails of the current retro boom.
                              >
                              > The PDP-8 has a pretty good following. According to Wiki 300,000 models of the PDP-8 were sold. A lot of people our age played their first computer game on a PDP-8. There is even a real PDP-8 online that you can control remotely through your browser.
                              >

                              I disagree with the idea that "old famous computers" are following the "current retro boom". They are two somewhat different trends and groups. I'll try to keep on-topic in explaining my view.

                              It's simple arithmetic, that millions of people owned millions of various game machines and mass-produced gaming computers in the 1980's and 90's. There was intense user-group support for them, before the Internet that was the only way to go. Newsletters, developers, dealers in games and "consoles" and accessories. Even today there's still brick-stores that only sell gaming stuff.

                              Some of the 1802-based gaming products, fall into that class.

                              Decades later, former owners can either play those on their current computers, in simulation; or for tens or a few hundred dollars, they can buy surviving original machines. The Internet made it easy to get free games, free downloads, free simulators. And because these are free, this drives down the value of original games and original hardware. The fact so much of those originals survive also brings the price down. And computer gaming is very, very popular; so a small subset of classic gaming is still a lot of people.

                              So classic video gaming is cheap, familiar, and available. That I believe is the bulk of the "current retro boom", which has actually been around for several years as interest in retro gaming.

                              As for "old[er] famous computers": there were fewer of them, many were scrapped, they cost more to ship (heavy, large), they were (mostly) NOT for "gaming", they were expensive in the era (thousands of 1980 dollars). Most were sold for business or scientific or manufacturing use. Individuals who bought these, used them on-the-job or to create companies, products, services. They were NOT cheap - the price of a used car, in the era.

                              A subtle point. In the 70's there were few standard machines (nobody dominated), many brands and models, many processor types. A good number of them were bus-based machines (S-100, SS-50, Digital Group, etc.) and came in many configurations and supported many different brands. (These were also sold into the 1980's and some into the 1990's, a fact often forgotten today.)

                              My point? If you get one model of an Atari or Commodore or VIP, you know EXACTLY what it does and does not do. Most 70's vintage computers were NEVER kept that way, because technology moved forward, they were bought to BE modified. This diversity greatly fragments interests in "vintage computers", to specific brands or lines or processors or operating systems.

                              Also: many people interested in vintage gaming, have no interest in vintage "computing", non-gaming computers. If that old computer has no video and no games, what's the point of it, it's just an ugly box. There's an age gap, an experience gap too.

                              So what's our common experience here? Among the VIPs and ELFs and other 1802 models, there seem to be enough common features, and enough use of 1800 family components, that they constitute a coherent "set". As Lee Hart demonstrates, an ELF-class computer can be produced for under $100 today. Other members here hand-recreate original VIPs and ELFs within that budget. Prices are STILL modest today, for old 1802-class hardware. And there's challenges in programming these beasts. That, and the prior experiences many of us had with "the originals", is what unites us, via the Internet which "only" costs our time to use. (Access is not free.)

                              So I guess it's fair to say that our 1802 community benefits somewhat from the "current retro-computer boom". But a small group interest in a particular vintage product or brand can sustain itself, when costs of the items themselves are low (zero in simulation) and costs to stay connected and get support are low (zero, if you don't need hardware). When costs matter, when hardware matters - that's a different story, as it's hard to compete with zero costs. Interest in hardware, or in original hardware, is a different class of activity.

                              Herb Johnson
                              retrotechnology.com
                            • jdrose_8_bit
                              You are probably right. Was looking at it from my experience. I definitely enjoy video games. It is my primary interest in 8 bit computers. However, some of my
                              Message 14 of 17 , Feb 28, 2013
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                                You are probably right.

                                Was looking at it from my experience.

                                I definitely enjoy video games. It is my primary interest in 8 bit computers. However, some of my 1970s computer experience was at college using a PDP-8 and a part time job after school programming RPG III on a IBM System 38. So the current home computer retro trend created a nostalgia for mini-computers in me. Of course, that would not be true for everyone.

                                Must say that gaming is what led me to the discovery of the 1802 last year. Researching the Studio II console.

                                The Intellivsion to the PDPish CP1610.

                                J.D.







                                --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "thinkpast" <hjohnson@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I disagree with the idea that "old famous computers" are following the "current retro boom". They are two somewhat different trends and groups. I'll try to keep on-topic in explaining my view.
                                >
                                > It's simple arithmetic, that millions of people owned millions of various game machines and mass-produced gaming computers in the 1980's and 90's. There was intense user-group support for them, before the Internet that was the only way to go. Newsletters, developers, dealers in games and "consoles" and accessories. Even today there's still brick-stores that only sell gaming stuff.
                                >
                                > Some of the 1802-based gaming products, fall into that class.
                                >
                                > Decades later, former owners can either play those on their current computers, in simulation; or for tens or a few hundred dollars, they can buy surviving original machines. The Internet made it easy to get free games, free downloads, free simulators. And because these are free, this drives down the value of original games and original hardware. The fact so much of those originals survive also brings the price down. And computer gaming is very, very popular; so a small subset of classic gaming is still a lot of people.
                                >
                                > So classic video gaming is cheap, familiar, and available. That I believe is the bulk of the "current retro boom", which has actually been around for several years as interest in retro gaming.
                                >
                                > As for "old[er] famous computers": there were fewer of them, many were scrapped, they cost more to ship (heavy, large), they were (mostly) NOT for "gaming", they were expensive in the era (thousands of 1980 dollars). Most were sold for business or scientific or manufacturing use. Individuals who bought these, used them on-the-job or to create companies, products, services. They were NOT cheap - the price of a used car, in the era.
                                >
                                > A subtle point. In the 70's there were few standard machines (nobody dominated), many brands and models, many processor types. A good number of them were bus-based machines (S-100, SS-50, Digital Group, etc.) and came in many configurations and supported many different brands. (These were also sold into the 1980's and some into the 1990's, a fact often forgotten today.)
                                >
                                > My point? If you get one model of an Atari or Commodore or VIP, you know EXACTLY what it does and does not do. Most 70's vintage computers were NEVER kept that way, because technology moved forward, they were bought to BE modified. This diversity greatly fragments interests in "vintage computers", to specific brands or lines or processors or operating systems.
                                >
                                > Also: many people interested in vintage gaming, have no interest in vintage "computing", non-gaming computers. If that old computer has no video and no games, what's the point of it, it's just an ugly box. There's an age gap, an experience gap too.
                                >
                                > So what's our common experience here? Among the VIPs and ELFs and other 1802 models, there seem to be enough common features, and enough use of 1800 family components, that they constitute a coherent "set". As Lee Hart demonstrates, an ELF-class computer can be produced for under $100 today. Other members here hand-recreate original VIPs and ELFs within that budget. Prices are STILL modest today, for old 1802-class hardware. And there's challenges in programming these beasts. That, and the prior experiences many of us had with "the originals", is what unites us, via the Internet which "only" costs our time to use. (Access is not free.)
                                >
                                > So I guess it's fair to say that our 1802 community benefits somewhat from the "current retro-computer boom". But a small group interest in a particular vintage product or brand can sustain itself, when costs of the items themselves are low (zero in simulation) and costs to stay connected and get support are low (zero, if you don't need hardware). When costs matter, when hardware matters - that's a different story, as it's hard to compete with zero costs. Interest in hardware, or in original hardware, is a different class of activity.
                                >
                                > Herb Johnson
                                > retrotechnology.com
                                >
                              • bill rowe
                                I wonder if there isn t a lot of overlap though charles. There are a lot of people who worked on big minis or mainframes during the day then came home to bang
                                Message 15 of 17 , Feb 28, 2013
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                                  I wonder if there isn't a lot of overlap though charles.  There are a lot of people who worked on big minis or mainframes during the day then came home to bang on micros at night.  I think some of the same impulse that drives purchases of old cars, toys, and magazines applies to both the big and little iron.  Gaming machines vs programming machines would just be specializations.


                                  To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: rarecoinbuyer@...
                                  Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 18:46:02 +0000
                                  Subject: [cosmacelf] Re: Off topic but pretty wonderful PDP8 replica by spare time gizmos

                                   
                                  You are probably right.

                                  Was looking at it from my experience.

                                  I definitely enjoy video games. It is my primary interest in 8 bit computers. However, some of my 1970s computer experience was at college using a PDP-8 and a part time job after school programming RPG III on a IBM System 38. So the current home computer retro trend created a nostalgia for mini-computers in me. Of course, that would not be true for everyone.

                                  Must say that gaming is what led me to the discovery of the 1802 last year. Researching the Studio II console.

                                  The Intellivsion to the PDPish CP1610.

                                  J.D.

                                  --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "thinkpast" wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I disagree with the idea that "old famous computers" are following the "current retro boom". They are two somewhat different trends and groups. I'll try to keep on-topic in explaining my view.
                                  >
                                  > It's simple arithmetic, that millions of people owned millions of various game machines and mass-produced gaming computers in the 1980's and 90's. There was intense user-group support for them, before the Internet that was the only way to go. Newsletters, developers, dealers in games and "consoles" and accessories. Even today there's still brick-stores that only sell gaming stuff.
                                  >
                                  > Some of the 1802-based gaming products, fall into that class.
                                  >
                                  > Decades later, former owners can either play those on their current computers, in simulation; or for tens or a few hundred dollars, they can buy surviving original machines. The Internet made it easy to get free games, free downloads, free simulators. And because these are free, this drives down the value of original games and original hardware. The fact so much of those originals survive also brings the price down. And computer gaming is very, very popular; so a small subset of classic gaming is still a lot of people.
                                  >
                                  > So classic video gaming is cheap, familiar, and available. That I believe is the bulk of the "current retro boom", which has actually been around for several years as interest in retro gaming.
                                  >
                                  > As for "old[er] famous computers": there were fewer of them, many were scrapped, they cost more to ship (heavy, large), they were (mostly) NOT for "gaming", they were expensive in the era (thousands of 1980 dollars). Most were sold for business or scientific or manufacturing use. Individuals who bought these, used them on-the-job or to create companies, products, services. They were NOT cheap - the price of a used car, in the era.
                                  >
                                  > A subtle point. In the 70's there were few standard machines (nobody dominated), many brands and models, many processor types. A good number of them were bus-based machines (S-100, SS-50, Digital Group, etc.) and came in many configurations and supported many different brands. (These were also sold into the 1980's and some into the 1990's, a fact often forgotten today.)
                                  >
                                  > My point? If you get one model of an Atari or Commodore or VIP, you know EXACTLY what it does and does not do. Most 70's vintage computers were NEVER kept that way, because technology moved forward, they were bought to BE modified. This diversity greatly fragments interests in "vintage computers", to specific brands or lines or processors or operating systems.
                                  >
                                  > Also: many people interested in vintage gaming, have no interest in vintage "computing", non-gaming computers. If that old computer has no video and no games, what's the point of it, it's just an ugly box. There's an age gap, an experience gap too.
                                  >
                                  > So what's our common experience here? Among the VIPs and ELFs and other 1802 models, there seem to be enough common features, and enough use of 1800 family components, that they constitute a coherent "set". As Lee Hart demonstrates, an ELF-class computer can be produced for under $100 today. Other members here hand-recreate original VIPs and ELFs within that budget. Prices are STILL modest today, for old 1802-class hardware. And there's challenges in programming these beasts. That, and the prior experiences many of us had with "the originals", is what unites us, via the Internet which "only" costs our time to use. (Access is not free.)
                                  >
                                  > So I guess it's fair to say that our 1802 community benefits somewhat from the "current retro-computer boom". But a small group interest in a particular vintage product or brand can sustain itself, when costs of the items themselves are low (zero in simulation) and costs to stay connected and get support are low (zero, if you don't need hardware). When costs matter, when hardware matters - that's a different story, as it's hard to compete with zero costs. Interest in hardware, or in original hardware, is a different class of activity.
                                  >
                                  > Herb Johnson
                                  > retrotechnology.com
                                  >


                                • David Keith
                                  Yes, this is off topic but this tread may be interested in the following link:
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Mar 1, 2013
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                                    Yes, this is off topic but this tread may be interested in the following link:




                                    From: jdrose_8_bit <rarecoinbuyer@...>
                                    To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 1:46 PM
                                    Subject: [cosmacelf] Re: Off topic but pretty wonderful PDP8 replica by spare time gizmos

                                    You are probably right.

                                    Was looking at it from my experience.

                                    I definitely enjoy video games. It is my primary interest in 8 bit computers. However, some of my 1970s computer experience was at college using a PDP-8 and a part time job after school programming RPG III on a IBM System 38. So the current home computer retro trend created a nostalgia for mini-computers in me. Of course, that would not be true for everyone.

                                    Must say that gaming is what led me to the discovery of the 1802 last year. Researching the Studio II console.

                                    The Intellivsion to the PDPish CP1610.

                                    J.D.





                                     

                                    --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "thinkpast" <hjohnson@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I disagree with the idea that "old famous computers" are following the "current retro boom". They are two somewhat different trends and groups. I'll try to keep on-topic in explaining my view.
                                    >
                                    > It's simple arithmetic, that millions of people owned millions of various game machines and mass-produced gaming computers in the 1980's and 90's. There was intense user-group support for them, before the Internet that was the only way to go. Newsletters, developers, dealers in games and "consoles" and accessories. Even today there's still brick-stores that only sell gaming stuff.
                                    >
                                    > Some of the 1802-based gaming products, fall into that class.
                                    >
                                    > Decades later, former owners can either play those on their current computers, in simulation; or for tens or a few hundred dollars, they can buy surviving original machines. The Internet made it easy to get free games, free downloads, free simulators. And because these are free, this drives down the value of original games and original hardware. The fact so much of those originals survive also brings the price down. And computer gaming is very, very popular; so a small subset of classic gaming is still a lot of people.
                                    >
                                    > So classic video gaming is cheap, familiar, and available. That I believe is the bulk of the "current retro boom", which has actually been around for several years as interest in retro gaming.
                                    >
                                    > As for "old[er] famous computers": there were fewer of them, many were scrapped, they cost more to ship (heavy, large), they were (mostly) NOT for "gaming", they were expensive in the era (thousands of 1980 dollars). Most were sold for business or scientific or manufacturing use. Individuals who bought these, used them on-the-job or to create companies, products, services. They were NOT cheap - the price of a used car, in the era.
                                    >
                                    > A subtle point. In the 70's there were few standard machines (nobody dominated), many brands and models, many processor types. A good number of them were bus-based machines (S-100, SS-50, Digital Group, etc.) and came in many configurations and supported many different brands. (These were also sold into the 1980's and some into the 1990's, a fact often forgotten today.)
                                    >
                                    > My point? If you get one model of an Atari or Commodore or VIP, you know EXACTLY what it does and does not do. Most 70's vintage computers were NEVER kept that way, because technology moved forward, they were bought to BE modified. This diversity greatly fragments interests in "vintage computers", to specific brands or lines or processors or operating systems.
                                    >
                                    > Also: many people interested in vintage gaming, have no interest in vintage "computing", non-gaming computers. If that old computer has no video and no games, what's the point of it, it's just an ugly box. There's an age gap, an experience gap too. 
                                    >
                                    > So what's our common experience here? Among the VIPs and ELFs and other 1802 models, there seem to be enough common features, and enough use of 1800 family components, that they constitute a coherent "set".  As Lee Hart demonstrates, an ELF-class computer can be produced for under $100 today. Other members here hand-recreate original VIPs and ELFs within that budget. Prices are STILL modest today, for old 1802-class hardware. And there's challenges in programming these beasts. That, and the prior experiences many of us had with "the originals", is what unites us, via the Internet which "only" costs our time to use. (Access is not free.)
                                    >
                                    > So I guess it's fair to say that our 1802 community benefits somewhat from the "current retro-computer boom". But a small group interest in a particular vintage product or brand can sustain itself, when costs of the items themselves are low (zero in simulation) and costs to stay connected and get support are low (zero, if you don't need hardware). When costs matter, when hardware matters - that's a different story, as it's hard to compete with zero costs. Interest in hardware, or in original hardware, is a different class of activity.
                                    >
                                    > Herb Johnson
                                    > retrotechnology.com
                                    >




                                    ------------------------------------

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                                  • Josh Bensadon
                                    Yes, very nice.  But it s sad that the legality of this computer sale is in question. It belongs to Sellam Ismail and was taken (possibly illegally) from his
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Mar 1, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Yes, very nice.  But it's sad that the legality of this computer sale is in question.
                                      It belongs to Sellam Ismail and was taken (possibly illegally) from his warehouse.  You can search for the whole story on some of the other vintage computers groups.  Personally, I'm not willing to get involved with anything being sold by TVRSales. 



                                      --- On Fri, 3/1/13, David Keith <beloved_wind@...> wrote:

                                      From: David Keith <beloved_wind@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [cosmacelf] Re: Off topic but pretty wonderful PDP8 replica by spare time gizmos
                                      To: "cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com" <cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Received: Friday, March 1, 2013, 6:16 AM

                                       


                                      Yes, this is off topic but this tread may be interested in the following link:




                                      From: jdrose_8_bit <rarecoinbuyer@...>
                                      To: cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 1:46 PM
                                      Subject: [cosmacelf] Re: Off topic but pretty wonderful PDP8 replica by spare time gizmos

                                      You are probably right.

                                      Was looking at it from my experience.

                                      I definitely enjoy video games. It is my primary interest in 8 bit computers. However, some of my 1970s computer experience was at college using a PDP-8 and a part time job after school programming RPG III on a IBM System 38. So the current home computer retro trend created a nostalgia for mini-computers in me. Of course, that would not be true for everyone.

                                      Must say that gaming is what led me to the discovery of the 1802 last year. Researching the Studio II console.

                                      The Intellivsion to the PDPish CP1610.

                                      J.D.





                                       

                                      --- In cosmacelf@yahoogroups.com, "thinkpast" <hjohnson@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I disagree with the idea that "old famous computers" are following the "current retro boom". They are two somewhat different trends and groups. I'll try to keep on-topic in explaining my view.
                                      >
                                      > It's simple arithmetic, that millions of people owned millions of various game machines and mass-produced gaming computers in the 1980's and 90's. There was intense user-group support for them, before the Internet that was the only way to go. Newsletters, developers, dealers in games and "consoles" and accessories. Even today there's still brick-stores that only sell gaming stuff.
                                      >
                                      > Some of the 1802-based gaming products, fall into that class.
                                      >
                                      > Decades later, former owners can either play those on their current computers, in simulation; or for tens or a few hundred dollars, they can buy surviving original machines. The Internet made it easy to get free games, free downloads, free simulators. And because these are free, this drives down the value of original games and original hardware. The fact so much of those originals survive also brings the price down. And computer gaming is very, very popular; so a small subset of classic gaming is still a lot of people.
                                      >
                                      > So classic video gaming is cheap, familiar, and available. That I believe is the bulk of the "current retro boom", which has actually been around for several years as interest in retro gaming.
                                      >
                                      > As for "old[er] famous computers": there were fewer of them, many were scrapped, they cost more to ship (heavy, large), they were (mostly) NOT for "gaming", they were expensive in the era (thousands of 1980 dollars). Most were sold for business or scientific or manufacturing use. Individuals who bought these, used them on-the-job or to create companies, products, services. They were NOT cheap - the price of a used car, in the era.
                                      >
                                      > A subtle point. In the 70's there were few standard machines (nobody dominated), many brands and models, many processor types. A good number of them were bus-based machines (S-100, SS-50, Digital Group, etc.) and came in many configurations and supported many different brands. (These were also sold into the 1980's and some into the 1990's, a fact often forgotten today.)
                                      >
                                      > My point? If you get one model of an Atari or Commodore or VIP, you know EXACTLY what it does and does not do. Most 70's vintage computers were NEVER kept that way, because technology moved forward, they were bought to BE modified. This diversity greatly fragments interests in "vintage computers", to specific brands or lines or processors or operating systems.
                                      >
                                      > Also: many people interested in vintage gaming, have no interest in vintage "computing", non-gaming computers. If that old computer has no video and no games, what's the point of it, it's just an ugly box. There's an age gap, an experience gap too. 
                                      >
                                      > So what's our common experience here? Among the VIPs and ELFs and other 1802 models, there seem to be enough common features, and enough use of 1800 family components, that they constitute a coherent "set".  As Lee Hart demonstrates, an ELF-class computer can be produced for under $100 today. Other members here hand-recreate original VIPs and ELFs within that budget. Prices are STILL modest today, for old 1802-class hardware. And there's challenges in programming these beasts. That, and the prior experiences many of us had with "the originals", is what unites us, via the Internet which "only" costs our time to use. (Access is not free.)
                                      >
                                      > So I guess it's fair to say that our 1802 community benefits somewhat from the "current retro-computer boom". But a small group interest in a particular vintage product or brand can sustain itself, when costs of the items themselves are low (zero in simulation) and costs to stay connected and get support are low (zero, if you don't need hardware). When costs matter, when hardware matters - that's a different story, as it's hard to compete with zero costs. Interest in hardware, or in original hardware, is a different class of activity.
                                      >
                                      > Herb Johnson
                                      > retrotechnology.com
                                      >




                                      ------------------------------------

                                      ========================================================
                                      Visit the COSMAC ELF website at http://www.cosmacelf.comYahoo! Groups Links

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