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  • Cornstoves
    Forward thinking, considerate, informed, extremely well educated, common sense with an ear fine tuned and grounded, yet patiently testing for truth, not
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 3, 2007
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      Forward thinking, considerate, informed, extremely well educated,
      common sense with an ear fine tuned and grounded, yet patiently testing
      for truth, not willing to hastily recommend until results are in and
      explainable - a corn stove owner is (s)he.

      No heating fuel cost less than whole kernel shelled corn.

      Pepsi & Coke are made from corn syrup and cost less than bottled spring
      water.

      Gasoline made from corn ethanol cost less than $2/gallon petro out of
      the ground.

      Corn maize and corn farms are amaizing. Support the local corn farm
      that feeds local families with fluffy white popcorn, corn on the cob,
      shucked back ears shelled to the cob, corn fed beef, corn fed pork,
      corn fed gobblers, roosters and pullets too.
    • Ken
      ... From the calculators that I have seen, firewood and coal cost less. They are just not as convenient or clean. ... That is strictly a marketing issue. ...
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 4, 2007
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        Cornstoves wrote:
        >
        > No heating fuel cost less than whole kernel shelled corn.

        From the calculators that I have seen, firewood and coal cost less.
        They are just not as convenient or clean.
        >
        > Pepsi & Coke are made from corn syrup and cost less than bottled spring
        > water.

        That is strictly a marketing issue.

        > Gasoline made from corn ethanol cost less than $2/gallon petro out of
        > the ground.

        Gasoline would cost a lot less if it were not for the taxes. Corn
        ethanol is subsidized while gasoline is heavily taxed. It's pork barrel
        politics at it's worst. The government makes many times more profit
        per gallon of gasoline than Exxon does.

        I am not against corn by any means. But the current market is distorted
        by self serving politicians and corporations.

        Ken
      • Cornstoves
        Ken, Click on Files. Compare the inflation or escalation of milk and gas with corn. Then think about the calculations referenced. Truthfully the 80% efficient
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 4, 2007
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          Ken, Click on Files. Compare the inflation or escalation of milk and
          gas with corn. Then think about the calculations referenced.
          Truthfully the 80% efficient wood stove used for the calculations
          does not exist. Neither does the 65% efficient corn stove used for
          the calculations exist. The corn stove is obsolete. The solid fuel or
          coal fuel stove above 50% efficiency does not exist. Read why.

          Modern corn stove combustion is 98% efficient as tested at the EPA
          solid fuel approved test facility at Virginia Tech. Coal is 40%-60%
          combustion efficient in the most efficient of fossil power plants as
          tested by the owners, TVA, AEP, Georgia Power. Home combustion of
          wood is not nearly as efficient as the professional, full time,
          highly trained operators employed three shifts daily at AEP, TVA, and
          The Southern Company.

          No home wood stove or wood fireplace can reach 50% efficiency. 80%
          total wood stove efficiency was erraneously used for the
          calculations. With no consideration for heat exchange efficiency, the
          combustion efficiency alone for wood is only 50% at best. Virginia
          Tech has actual test data for the solid fuel stoves submitted for
          testing. The test data by Virginia Tech for 98% combustion efficiency
          of a corn stove takes no consideration for heat exchange efficiency
          for either corn stoves, wood stoves, or solid fuel stoves.

          But wait. Heat transfer efficiency may exceed 100% for wood
          combustion in a fireplace as defined by the heat that escapes up the
          chimney. When the wood fire dies down, there is a negative transfer
          of heat out the chimney that rapidly cools the entire facility. When
          the wood heated facility is smoke filled from a down draft, there
          will be a negative transfer of heat while purging the entire facility
          of smoke. The accumulation of cresote in a wood chimney is testimony
          of combustion efficiency loss that accumulates to present continuous
          future fire hazard.

          The 40-60% coal combustion efficiency transfers electricity across
          grid to the customer at only 24% total efficiency.
          The largest electric customer/consumer of any power plant is the
          power plant itself. Half the electricity produced at a fossil power
          plant is used to produce the electricity on site. There are
          additonal grid losses plus administrative and home office consumption
          loss.
          NOTE: Over half the electricity produced by AEP at AEP is consumed at
          AEP by AEP power plants and grid loss transmitters. TVA and The
          Southern Company have similiar statistics. Half the 50% combustion
          efficiency is reduced to 25% efficiency by on-site consumption.
          25% total efficiency is a goal to be proud of at AEP, TVA, & The
          Southern Co. Each individual electric customer represents 35-60 tons
          pollution annually. Tennessee's Ali Gore recently published
          consumption represents 1000 tons pollution annually at the Al Gore
          Mansion in Tennessee. TVA's AG and GAO audits chastised TVA for
          selling twice the amount of annual "green credits" to consumers like
          Al Gore, than the green hydro credits TVA actually produced by green
          generation.

          Heat exchange efficiency is equally important to combustion
          efficiency. Patiently corn stove owners traded the older and lower
          efficient corn stoves to obtain the newer more efficient corn
          stoves. Newer corn stoves have improved heat exchanger efficiency
          over the earlier corn stoves that tested at the lower heat exchange
          efficiency. Do not confuse combustion efficiency with heat exchanger
          efficiency.

          Technically speaking the agricultural economics used fictious figures
          to compare wood and coal combustion. There was no technical basis for
          the numbers. Note the same calculations used 100% efficiency for
          electricity and 80% for gas! Give us a break. Nothing is 100%
          efficiency. Ask any consumer North of Nashville if the home heat
          pump is 1000% efficienct (10EER rating) as advertised. Hog wash. As
          shown above, electricity is 25% efficient at best. Wood and coal are
          25-50% efficient at best. To my knowledge, the 98% efficient
          combustion of a corn stove has NEVER BEEN TESTED for heat exchanger
          efficiency. The heat exchange efficiency of each corn stove model is
          unique and different. Neither have any of the other solid fuel stoves.
          Please correct me if you have access to actual test data results from
          Virginia Tech or any unabiased EPA approved testing facility for
          actual heat exchange efficiency into the room or HVAC system.

          EPA - PLEEESE don't submit ON THIS FORUM that an electric vehicle can
          get more mpg standing still in heavy traffic than on the open
          highway. Is the EPA intentionally biased, incompetent or
          intentionally technically flawed by releasing greater mileage for
          electric vehicles in heavy traffic than on the open highway? Is
          there bias when 100% is used for electricity, 80% for gas, coal or
          wood.

          The question is raised to explain to corn stove customers that the
          only numbers that really count are the total bills at the end of the
          month compared to the cost of other options, personal health, comfort
          and convenience factors.
          If there is plenty of money, the inconvenience of removing ash and
          loading corn in the corn stove may outweigh the comfort of the steady
          corn stove heat and stable relative humidity. Stable room relative
          humidity is an exclusive feature of the steady corn stove heat.






          --- In cornplace@yahoogroups.com, Ken <ken.meinken@...> wrote:
          >
          > Cornstoves wrote:
          > >
          > > No heating fuel cost less than whole kernel shelled corn.
          >
          > From the calculators that I have seen, firewood and coal cost less.
          > They are just not as convenient or clean.
          > >
          > > Pepsi & Coke are made from corn syrup and cost less than bottled
          spring
          > > water.
          >
          > That is strictly a marketing issue.
          >
          > > Gasoline made from corn ethanol cost less than $2/gallon petro
          out of
          > > the ground.
          >
          > Gasoline would cost a lot less if it were not for the taxes. Corn
          > ethanol is subsidized while gasoline is heavily taxed. It's pork
          barrel
          > politics at it's worst. The government makes many times more
          profit
          > per gallon of gasoline than Exxon does.
          >
          > I am not against corn by any means. But the current market is
          distorted
          > by self serving politicians and corporations.
          >
          > Ken
          >
        • yellowcorvette4
          Ken, In most homes the corn cost compared to other fuels follows the bar graph comparison on http://msnusers.com/AmaizablazeCornStoves. Click on Model 7100,
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 5, 2007
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            Ken, In most homes the corn cost compared to other fuels follows the
            bar graph comparison on http://msnusers.com/AmaizablazeCornStoves.
            Click on Model 7100, Click on Photos or just click on the link below:
            http://msnusers.com/AmaizablazeCornStoves/amaizablazemodel7100.msnw?
            action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=9
            Correctly observed the cost to produce corn ethanol gas/moonshine
            liquor 90/10 is $0.85 to $1.00 per gallon. Accumulate corp, local,
            state, federal, road taxes and ethanol fuel cost roughly $3/gallon
            with farm corn selling $2-$3 per bushel. The cost of ethanol explains
            why OPEC ratchets gasoline about $3/gallon. The feds subsidize Archer
            Midland Daniels with half the US subsidies by paying AMD for the corn
            purchased to refine into ethanol. In addition to federal subsidies,
            loans, and grants, states like Calif and NC subsidize solar and
            renewable fuels at 40% to 50% of actual installation cost.

            No matter your work or political persuasion, the Feds, states,unified
            countries and diversified governments survive and thrive controlling
            one's financial energy with taxes, subsidies, loans, and grants.
            Whole kernel shelled combine or silo corn direct grown or farm
            purchased is recommended as compared to processed, refined, liquified
            corn mesh at the mill or market.

            The working person paying bills is not into the blame game. (S)he
            must control the bottom line. The blame attitude was well worded last
            week by Ali Gore and I quote: "I don't blame individual home owners
            like me. The public and governments are to blame for the polluting
            energy shame."
            Correct my english but does not VP Gore presently accept financial
            reward because he once sat in the second highest office of government
            in one of the most influential and largest of countries? So the
            public is at fault and the government to blame for Al's home that
            produces 1000 tons pollution each year.



            --- In cornplace@yahoogroups.com, Ken <ken.meinken@...> wrote:
            >
            > Cornstoves wrote:
            > >
            > > No heating fuel cost less than whole kernel shelled corn.
            >
            > From the calculators that I have seen, firewood and coal cost less.
            > They are just not as convenient or clean.
            > >
            > > Pepsi & Coke are made from corn syrup and cost less than bottled
            spring
            > > water.
            >
            > That is strictly a marketing issue.
            >
            > > Gasoline made from corn ethanol cost less than $2/gallon petro
            out of
            > > the ground.
            >
            > Gasoline would cost a lot less if it were not for the taxes. Corn
            > ethanol is subsidized while gasoline is heavily taxed. It's pork
            barrel
            > politics at it's worst. The government makes many times more
            profit
            > per gallon of gasoline than Exxon does.
            >
            > I am not against corn by any means. But the current market is
            distorted
            > by self serving politicians and corporations.
            >
            > Ken
            >
          • Ken
            I get a not found on the cost comparison you reference. But looking at http://www.pelletheat.org/3/residential/compareFuel.cfm firewood at $150/cord and 50%
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 5, 2007
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              I get a "not found" on the cost comparison you reference. But looking at
              http://www.pelletheat.org/3/residential/compareFuel.cfm

              firewood at $150/cord and 50% efficiency is a lot cheaper than pellets
              at the current $250/ton and 80% efficiency. Likewise coal is less
              expensive at 50%.

              Corn is NOT going for $2-3 a bushel today. Nobody knows what it will be
              next year, it might collapse back to $3 (unlikely IMO) or might go above
              $6. That depends upon the government sponsored manipulation.

              I am not knocking corn by any means. But it certainly is not a savior
              to replace gasoline (BTW, ethanol reduces gas mileage). It's just a
              political boondoggle and pork barrel politics.

              As for Al Gore, he is so full of lies and BS that his only value would
              be as fertilizer.

              Ken

              yellowcorvette4 wrote:
              >
              >
              > Ken, In most homes the corn cost compared to other fuels follows the
              > bar graph comparison on http://msnusers.com/AmaizablazeCornStoves.
              > <http://msnusers.com/AmaizablazeCornStoves.>
              > Click on Model 7100, Click on Photos or just click on the link below:
              > http://msnusers.com/AmaizablazeCornStoves/amaizablazemodel7100.msnw?
              > <http://msnusers.com/AmaizablazeCornStoves/amaizablazemodel7100.msnw?>
              > action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=9
              > Correctly observed the cost to produce corn ethanol gas/moonshine
              > liquor 90/10 is $0.85 to $1.00 per gallon. Accumulate corp, local,
              > state, federal, road taxes and ethanol fuel cost roughly $3/gallon
              > with farm corn selling $2-$3 per bushel. The cost of ethanol explains
              > why OPEC ratchets gasoline about $3/gallon. The feds subsidize Archer
              > Midland Daniels with half the US subsidies by paying AMD for the corn
              > purchased to refine into ethanol. In addition to federal subsidies,
              > loans, and grants, states like Calif and NC subsidize solar and
              > renewable fuels at 40% to 50% of actual installation cost.
              >
              > No matter your work or political persuasion, the Feds, states,unified
              > countries and diversified governments survive and thrive controlling
              > one's financial energy with taxes, subsidies, loans, and grants.
              > Whole kernel shelled combine or silo corn direct grown or farm
              > purchased is recommended as compared to processed, refined, liquified
              > corn mesh at the mill or market.
              >
              > The working person paying bills is not into the blame game. (S)he
              > must control the bottom line. The blame attitude was well worded last
              > week by Ali Gore and I quote: "I don't blame individual home owners
              > like me. The public and governments are to blame for the polluting
              > energy shame."
              > Correct my english but does not VP Gore presently accept financial
              > reward because he once sat in the second highest office of government
              > in one of the most influential and largest of countries? So the
              > public is at fault and the government to blame for Al's home that
              > produces 1000 tons pollution each year.
              >
            • cornstoves
              Talk to someone heating with corn that previously heated with wood. This week end at Gray Tenn Fairgrounds you can talk to wood workers with access to
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 5, 2007
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                Talk to someone heating with corn that previously heated with wood.
                This week end at Gray Tenn Fairgrounds you can talk to wood workers
                with access to unlimited free wood. They heat the house with corn.
                You can also talk to Dyke Parker, a corn stove owner that switched
                after his house burned down with a coal/wood stove. The labor cost
                for heating with wood can not be ignored. Some heating cost are not
                readily visible.

                Hidden cost associated with coal/wood are not limited to house or
                health hazard. Consider liability from visitor safety, home heat when
                sick or disabled, or cresote fire hazards: misc-
                kids/babyproofing/general/, http://www.newsgroups-
                index.com/group/misc_-answers_l60.html--- In
                cornplace@yahoogroups.com,


                Ken <ken.meinken@...> wrote:
                >
                > I get a "not found" on the cost comparison you reference. But
                looking at
                > http://www.pelletheat.org/3/residential/compareFuel.cfm
                >
                > firewood at $150/cord and 50% efficiency is a lot cheaper than
                pellets
                > at the current $250/ton and 80% efficiency. Likewise coal is less
                > expensive at 50%.
                >
                > Corn is NOT going for $2-3 a bushel today. Nobody knows what it
                will be
                > next year, it might collapse back to $3 (unlikely IMO) or might go
                above
                > $6. That depends upon the government sponsored manipulation.
                >
                > I am not knocking corn by any means. But it certainly is not a
                savior
                > to replace gasoline (BTW, ethanol reduces gas mileage). It's just a
                > political boondoggle and pork barrel politics.
                >
                > As for Al Gore, he is so full of lies and BS that his only value
                would
                > be as fertilizer.
                >
                > Ken
                >
                > yellowcorvette4 wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Ken, In most homes the corn cost compared to other fuels follows
                the
                > > bar graph comparison on http://msnusers.com/AmaizablazeCornStoves.
                > > <http://msnusers.com/AmaizablazeCornStoves.>
                > > Click on Model 7100, Click on Photos or just click on the link
                below:
                > >
                http://msnusers.com/AmaizablazeCornStoves/amaizablazemodel7100.msnw?
                > >
                <http://msnusers.com/AmaizablazeCornStoves/amaizablazemodel7100.msnw?>
                > > action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=9
                > > Correctly observed the cost to produce corn ethanol gas/moonshine
                > > liquor 90/10 is $0.85 to $1.00 per gallon. Accumulate corp, local,
                > > state, federal, road taxes and ethanol fuel cost roughly $3/gallon
                > > with farm corn selling $2-$3 per bushel. The cost of ethanol
                explains
                > > why OPEC ratchets gasoline about $3/gallon. The feds subsidize
                Archer
                > > Midland Daniels with half the US subsidies by paying AMD for the
                corn
                > > purchased to refine into ethanol. In addition to federal
                subsidies,
                > > loans, and grants, states like Calif and NC subsidize solar and
                > > renewable fuels at 40% to 50% of actual installation cost.
                > >
                > > No matter your work or political persuasion, the Feds,
                states,unified
                > > countries and diversified governments survive and thrive
                controlling
                > > one's financial energy with taxes, subsidies, loans, and grants.
                > > Whole kernel shelled combine or silo corn direct grown or farm
                > > purchased is recommended as compared to processed, refined,
                liquified
                > > corn mesh at the mill or market.
                > >
                > > The working person paying bills is not into the blame game. (S)he
                > > must control the bottom line. The blame attitude was well worded
                last
                > > week by Ali Gore and I quote: "I don't blame individual home
                owners
                > > like me. The public and governments are to blame for the polluting
                > > energy shame."
                > > Correct my english but does not VP Gore presently accept financial
                > > reward because he once sat in the second highest office of
                government
                > > in one of the most influential and largest of countries? So the
                > > public is at fault and the government to blame for Al's home that
                > > produces 1000 tons pollution each year.
                > >
                >
              • Charlie Miller
                Error in enery efficiency disqualifies the shown wood pellet comparison chart. The comparison is garbage. Compared is the 100% efficient electricity with 80%
                Message 7 of 7 , Mar 5, 2007
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                  Error in enery efficiency disqualifies the shown wood pellet comparison chart. 
                  The comparison is garbage.
                   
                  Compared is the 100% efficient electricity with 80% efficient wood stove. Neither exist. No man made object is 100% efficient within the laws of physics. Wood combustion efficiency to be accurate must distinguish between oak, pine, bark, hickory, elm, apple wood. No coal boiler and no wood stove is 80% combustion efficient. None on the globe.
                  The heat exchanger efficiency of the stove design must also be stated. Heat exchange efficiency is not shown for any of the comparisons shown.
                   
                  Theoritical efficiency calculations are accurately shown on the bargraph www.msnusers.com/AmaizablazeCornStoves, click on Model 7100. You may need to join for the site to function properly.
                  If the cost of gasoline has doubled, and it has, then double the height of the bar.
                  If corn cost has doubled, and it hasn't, add that to the height of the bar.
                  If you get free wood, drop that bar to zero.
                  When completed, now make adjustments for the heat exchange efficiency of the stove(s) being compared.  The chart allows comparison between oak wood, apple wood, and hickory wood, gasoline, propane, electricity, corn, etc.
                  Also make consideration for the % of total energy represented by heat.  TVA.gov considers 42% of the home energy to be for heat.  South would be less.  North greater.  If you live in Tennessee, for heat only,  cut all the bar graph heights in half (42%) to represent heat energy only.  If the heat exchange efficiency of the heater under consideration is 50% efficient, double the numbers again.  Technically, the bar graph with no revision is relatively representative of the average American home using 50 million BTU per year.
                   
                  Ask someone heating with corn to verify how extremely accurate the bar graph is for their personal home in real numbers. Compaare the cost of the previous heating fuel with the corn cost.  The bar graph is amaizingly accurate.
                   
                  It is anyone's guess which fuel will escalate faster in the future. 
                  With 200 years recorded history, nothing in history is as stable as the price of corn.
                  Not milk (milk has not changed in content but milk cost has changed with inflation).
                  Not Gas.(gas is constantly changing to meet regs. For EPA mandates,  MTBE additives were replaced with ethanol in 2006. Lead additives disappeared years ago. The formulation of gasoline is a great secret)
                  Not wood.  Wood has not changed in content but wood cost has changed with inflation.
                  Not coal.  Each piece of coal is unique as a diamond but the taxes on coal exceed the total cost of corn per BTU.
                   
                  If you don't like the price of corn, go direct to a farm and save.
                  Can one go shopping  for any other heating fuel in the heart of winter?
                  Farms will double acreage in 2007 over 2006 to supply the market. 
                  If the government would allow, farms have another 40 million acres available to raise corn that is now tied up and idle by the USDA Soil Conservation Program.
                  Last year some corn farms produced 300 bu per acre. 
                  Soy bean production, in comparison, is 35-50 bu per acre. 
                  Conclusion:
                  Expect corn production to hold the line on gasoline prices. 
                  Do not expect soy beans to hold the line on biodiesel production or prices.

                  Ken <ken.meinken@...> wrote:
                  I get a "not found" on the cost comparison you reference. But looking at
                  http://www.pellethe at.org/3/ residential/ compareFuel. cfm

                  firewood at $150/cord and 50% efficiency is a lot cheaper than pellets
                  at the current $250/ton and 80% efficiency. Likewise coal is less
                  expensive at 50%.

                  Corn is NOT going for $2-3 a bushel today. Nobody knows what it will be
                  next year, it might collapse back to $3 (unlikely IMO) or might go above
                  $6. That depends upon the government sponsored manipulation.

                  I am not knocking corn by any means. But it certainly is not a savior
                  to replace gasoline (BTW, ethanol reduces gas mileage). It's just a
                  political boondoggle and pork barrel politics.

                  As for Al Gore, he is so full of lies and BS that his only value would
                  be as fertilizer.

                  Ken

                  yellowcorvette4 wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Ken, In most homes the corn cost compared to other fuels follows the
                  > bar graph comparison on http://msnusers. com/AmaizablazeC ornStoves.
                  > <http://msnusers. com/AmaizablazeC ornStoves.>
                  > Click on Model 7100, Click on Photos or just click on the link below:
                  > http://msnusers. com/AmaizablazeC ornStoves/ amaizablazemodel 7100.msnw?
                  > <http://msnusers. com/AmaizablazeC ornStoves/ amaizablazemodel 7100.msnw?>
                  > action=ShowPhoto& PhotoID=9
                  > Correctly observed the cost to produce corn ethanol gas/moonshine
                  > liquor 90/10 is $0.85 to $1.00 per gallon. Accumulate corp, local,
                  > state, federal, road taxes and ethanol fuel cost roughly $3/gallon
                  > with farm corn selling $2-$3 per bushel. The cost of ethanol explains
                  > why OPEC ratchets gasoline about $3/gallon. The feds subsidize Archer
                  > Midland Daniels with half the US subsidies by paying AMD for the corn
                  > purchased to refine into ethanol. In addition to federal subsidies,
                  > loans, and grants, states like Calif and NC subsidize solar and
                  > renewable fuels at 40% to 50% of actual installation cost.
                  >
                  > No matter your work or political persuasion, the Feds, states,unified
                  > countries and diversified governments survive and thrive controlling
                  > one's financial energy with taxes, subsidies, loans, and grants.
                  > Whole kernel shelled combine or silo corn direct grown or farm
                  > purchased is recommended as compared to processed, refined, liquified
                  > corn mesh at the mill or market.
                  >
                  > The working person paying bills is not into the blame game. (S)he
                  > must control the bottom line. The blame attitude was well worded last
                  > week by Ali Gore and I quote: "I don't blame individual home owners
                  > like me. The public and governments are to blame for the polluting
                  > energy shame."
                  > Correct my english but does not VP Gore presently accept financial
                  > reward because he once sat in the second highest office of government
                  > in one of the most influential and largest of countries? So the
                  > public is at fault and the government to blame for Al's home that
                  > produces 1000 tons pollution each year.
                  >


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