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Re: non-Rumpolt: 16th c. Persian recipe

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  • xina007eu
    ... Hi Urtatim, Was nun qeyma:-polaw as What s this as ? Is the text correct? Not a correct or meaningful word in German. muss [...] zart und fein
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 7, 2010
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      --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, lilinah@... wrote:
      >
      > I am reposting, since other than Ranvaig's comment, i have gotten no
      > feedback. I am not fully satisfied with my translation, so i'm hoping
      > to hear from youse guys and guyettes.
      >
      > === begin repost ===
      >
      > I'm translating a modern German translation of part of a late 16th c.
      > Persian cookbook, since i am likely to do better with my very scant
      > modern German than my non-existent Persian. I have translated the 60
      > recipes (some very short). I am having hang-ups in a few spots. Here
      > is one.
      >
      > (a: = a umlaut; u: = u umlaut; ss = eszet)
      >
      > This is the *complete* recipe... not too informative about the food,
      > but tells something about the cook :)
      >
      > Was nun qeyma:-polaw as, so muss das dafu:r bestimmte qeyma: (n.36)
      > sehr zart und fein vorbereitet werden. [Ich,] dieser schuldbeladene
      > armselige Geringe, habe [dereinst] fu:r die Zubereitung von
      > derartigem qeyma von Soltan Hamza Mirza - Gott erbarme sich seiner
      > und vergebe ihm - ein anmutiges, blaues (kabud) Pferd als Belohnung
      > erhalten.
      >

      Hi Urtatim,

      "Was nun qeyma:-polaw as"
      What's this "as"? Is the text correct? Not a correct or meaningful word in German.

      "muss [...] zart und fein zubereitet werden": "zart und fein" can be adjectives (as you translated it) but also adverbs, referring to the way it's prepared: "must be prepared in a very delicate and refined manner". From the German text, it's impossible to tell which is correct.

      In some languages/cultures it is considered impolite to talk of oneself. This seems to be among them. It's probably a literary convention rather than an actual impression of what the author thought of himself.

      "dieser schuldbeladene armselige Geringe"
      "Schuldbeladen" usually means "burdened with guilt" but here something like "sinful" might be more appropriate. Personally, I'd use a translation like "this sinful, miserable, lowly person" for the whole phrase, but the actaul adjectives don't really matter. Adjectives in German can be used as nouns. In English you'd say "a <adjective> one" but in German no additional word like "one" is needed. So, "ein Geringer" is "a lowly one".

      By the way, you can type umlauts and other accented characters on your keyboard by holding down the ALT key and typing the character number on the numerical keypad. E.g. ALT-0252 will give you ü (u-umlaut), ALT-0228 is ä (a-umlaut), ALT-0223 is ß (Eszett).

      Hope that helps!

      Best regards,

      Christina
    • lilinah@earthlink.net
      ... Grrr. Not sure what happened, but should be: Was nun qeymä-polaw angeht, so muß das dafür bestimmte qeymä (n.36) sehr zart und fein vorbereitet werden.
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 7, 2010
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        Christina wrote:
        >"Was nun qeyma:-polaw as"
        >What's this "as"? Is the text correct? Not a
        >correct or meaningful word in German.

        Grrr. Not sure what happened, but should be:
        Was nun qeymä-polaw angeht, so muß das dafür
        bestimmte qeymä (n.36) sehr zart und fein
        vorbereitet werden. [Ich,] dieser schuldbeladene
        armselige Geringe, habe [dereinst] für die
        Zubereitung von derartigem qeymä von Soltan Hamza
        Mirza - Gott erbarme sich seiner und vergebe ihm
        - ein anmutiges, blaues (kabud) Pferd als
        Belohnung erhalten.

        (i left accented vowels and eszett in...)

        >"zart und fein" can be adjectives (as you
        >translated it) but also adverbs, referring to
        >the way it's prepared: "must be prepared in a
        >very delicate and refined manner". From the
        >German text, it's impossible to tell which is
        >correct.

        Thanks. I had noticed that and was hoping a
        native speaker, or at least someone with much
        more German than i, could tell the difference. I
        think i will go with the adverbial use.

        >In some languages/cultures it is considered
        >impolite to talk of oneself. This seems to be
        >among them. It's probably a literary convention
        >rather than an actual impression of what the
        >author thought of himself.

        Indeed. However, in other recipes the author
        lacks all modesty, so here it is clearly a
        literary convention.

        >"dieser schuldbeladene armselige Geringe"
        >"Schuldbeladen" usually means "burdened with
        >guilt" but here something like "sinful" might be
        >more appropriate. Personally, I'd use a
        >translation like "this sinful, miserable, lowly
        >person" for the whole phrase, but the actaul
        >adjectives don't really matter. Adjectives in
        >German can be used as nouns. In English you'd
        >say "a <adjective> one" but in German no
        >additional word like "one" is needed. So, "ein
        >Geringer" is "a lowly one".

        Thanks for the additional information and insight.

        >By the way, you can type umlauts and other
        >accented characters on your keyboard by holding
        >down the ALT key and typing the character number
        >on the numerical keypad. E.g. ALT-0252 will give
        >you ü (u-umlaut), ALT-0228 is ä (a-umlaut),
        >ALT-0223 is ß (Eszett).

        I can type accented vowels on my Macintosh
        keyboard, but they don't always come through in
        e-mail. Depending on a variety of issues,
        including the program that handles the mailing
        list, they can show up as odd characters.

        I left the characters in, so we'll see if the
        umlauted vowels and eszett show up fine for
        everyone, or look odd to some, or odd to everyone
        :)

        Thank you again so much for your helpful comments.
        --
        Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
        the persona formerly known as Anahita
      • Sharon Palmer
        ... They look ok to me. I know some people have trouble with them, but I think it s clearer to use the umlauts. Ranvaig
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 7, 2010
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          >I left the characters in, so we'll see if the
          >umlauted vowels and eszett show up fine for
          >everyone, or look odd to some, or odd to everyone

          They look ok to me. I know some people have trouble with them, but I
          think it's clearer to use the umlauts.

          Ranvaig
        • Sharon Palmer
          ... Perhaps you noticed it, but qeyma seems like the word usually spelled keema (which agrees with the description) and polaw like pilau. Ranvaig
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 7, 2010
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            >Now regarding qeyma-polaw, so must that particular qeyma (n.36) be
            >prepared very tender and refined. I, this fault-laden, poor,
            >insubstantial (person), received [one day] for the preparation of
            >such a qeyma for Soltan Hamza Mirza - God have mercy on him and
            >forgive him - a graceful, blue (kabud) horse as a reward.
            >
            >n.36. qeyma: (Turkish kiyma) means a finely chopped mixture of meat
            >and onion, which can be enriched with other ingredients, fried in fat
            >and cooked.
            >

            Perhaps you noticed it, but qeyma seems like the word usually spelled
            "keema" (which agrees with the description) and "polaw" like pilau.

            Ranvaig
          • lilinah@earthlink.net
            ... I want to retain the transliteration of the original 16th c. spelling. Fragner notes in the article that modern Persian spelling has changed from that of
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 7, 2010
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              I posted:
              > >Now regarding qeyma-polaw, so must that particular qeyma (n.36) be
              >>prepared very tender and refined. I, this fault-laden, poor,
              >>insubstantial (person), received [one day] for the preparation of
              >>such a qeyma for Soltan Hamza Mirza - God have mercy on him and
              >>forgive him - a graceful, blue (kabud) horse as a reward.
              >>
              >>n.36. qeyma: (Turkish kiyma) means a finely chopped mixture of meat
              >>and onion, which can be enriched with other ingredients, fried in fat
              > >and cooked.

              Ranvaig remarked:
              >Perhaps you noticed it, but qeyma seems like the word usually spelled
              >"keema" (which agrees with the description) and "polaw" like pilau.

              I want to retain the transliteration of the original 16th c.
              spelling. Fragner notes in the article that modern Persian spelling
              has changed from that of the 16th c. and presents examples.
              --
              Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
              the persona formerly known as Anahita
            • wheezul@canby.com
              ... I think most of the trouble happens in the digest format where yahoo strips special characters and replaces them with annoying question marks. Katherine
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 7, 2010
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                >>I left the characters in, so we'll see if the
                >>umlauted vowels and eszett show up fine for
                >>everyone, or look odd to some, or odd to everyone
                >
                > They look ok to me. I know some people have trouble with them, but I
                > think it's clearer to use the umlauts.
                >
                > Ranvaig

                I think most of the trouble happens in the digest format where yahoo
                strips special characters and replaces them with annoying question marks.

                Katherine
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