Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Odd Question - Sweet Potatoes

Expand Messages
  • Carowyn Silveroak
    Greetings, Some cooks on another list were talking about sweet potato recipes in late period, and one mentioned that there was a recipe in a German cookbook.
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 15, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      Greetings,

      Some cooks on another list were talking about sweet potato recipes in
      late period, and one mentioned that there was a recipe in a German
      cookbook. Does that sound familiar to anyone?

      -Carowyn
      ____________________________________________________________
      Mortgage Rates Hit 2.67%!
      If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Gov't Refi Programs
      http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ce186d78b6d94c2b9m02duc
    • Euriol of Lothian
      My guess, without looking further would be one of the two: Ein New Kochbuch by Marx Rumpolt (1581) or Ein Köstlich new Kochbuch by Anna Wecker (1598) Euriol
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 15, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        My guess, without looking further would be one of the two:

        Ein New Kochbuch by Marx Rumpolt (1581)

        or

        Ein Köstlich new Kochbuch by Anna Wecker (1598)

        Euriol




        ________________________________
        From: Carowyn Silveroak <silveroak@...>
        To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 2:14:08 PM
        Subject: [cooking_rumpolt] Odd Question - Sweet Potatoes


        Greetings,

        Some cooks on another list were talking about sweet potato recipes in
        late period, and one mentioned that there was a recipe in a German
        cookbook. Does that sound familiar to anyone?

        -Carowyn
        ____________________________________________________________
        Mortgage Rates Hit 2.67%!
        If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Gov't Refi Programs
        http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ce186d78b6d94c2b9m02duc


        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • wheezul@canby.com
        I don t recall a sweet potato recipe in Wecker s cookbook, but there is a recipe for kurbis in it, which basically specifies that it is the white skinned
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 15, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          I don't recall a sweet potato recipe in Wecker's cookbook, but there is a
          recipe for 'kurbis' in it, which basically specifies that it is the "white
          skinned round Turkish" variety. That doesn't sound like a sweet potato to
          me, but there are several variations given, including a pie made of cooked
          down pumpkin/squash pulp. There seems to ba a savory and a sweet version.
          Flavorings given:
          (Savory) fat, chopped parsley, marjoram, meat stock, pepper, saffron,
          ground cinnmon, eggs.
          (Sweet) variant made with milk or almond milk or water, fat, and can be
          made into a torte with ground almonds, sugar, cinnamon and raisins.

          This preparation is given as a recipe for the ill or pregnant who have the
          taste for eating 'kurbis'.

          Katherine

          > My guess, without looking further would be one of the two:
          >
          > Ein New Kochbuch by Marx Rumpolt (1581)
          >
          > or
          >
          > Ein Köstlich new Kochbuch by Anna Wecker (1598)
          >
          > Euriol
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Carowyn Silveroak <silveroak@...>
          > To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 2:14:08 PM
          > Subject: [cooking_rumpolt] Odd Question - Sweet Potatoes
          >
          >
          > Greetings,
          >
          > Some cooks on another list were talking about sweet potato recipes in
          > late period, and one mentioned that there was a recipe in a German
          > cookbook. Does that sound familiar to anyone?
          >
          > -Carowyn
          > ____________________________________________________________
          > Mortgage Rates Hit 2.67%!
          > If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Gov't Refi Programs
          > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4ce186d78b6d94c2b9m02duc
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
        • Sharon Palmer
          ... Rumpolt has one recipe for Erdtepffel which might be a potato sweet or white, or might be something else entirely. When new foods are introduced, often
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 15, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            >Greetings,
            >
            >Some cooks on another list were talking about sweet potato recipes in
            >late period, and one mentioned that there was a recipe in a German
            >cookbook. Does that sound familiar to anyone?

            Rumpolt has one recipe for "Erdtepffel" which might be a potato sweet
            or white, or might be something else entirely. When new foods are
            introduced, often they are given old names, and it's not easy to tell
            which is meant.

            Ranvaig
          • Euriol of Lothian
            I found this article on Sweet Potatoes: http://homecooking.about.com/od/foodhistory/a/sweetpothistory.htm I m at work, so I cannot look at the reference to
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 15, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
              I found this article on Sweet Potatoes:

              http://homecooking.about.com/od/foodhistory/a/sweetpothistory.htm

              I'm at work, so I cannot look at the reference to Waverly Root's Food to confirm
              the accuracy of the article, but it does fall along with what I remember about
              the sweet potato.

              Euriol




              ________________________________
              From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig@...>
              To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 3:28:00 PM
              Subject: Re: [cooking_rumpolt] Odd Question - Sweet Potatoes

              >Greetings,
              >
              >Some cooks on another list were talking about sweet potato recipes in
              >late period, and one mentioned that there was a recipe in a German
              >cookbook. Does that sound familiar to anyone?

              Rumpolt has one recipe for "Erdtepffel" which might be a potato sweet
              or white, or might be something else entirely. When new foods are
              introduced, often they are given old names, and it's not easy to tell
              which is meant.

              Ranvaig


              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Sharon Palmer
              Here is another interesting article. Even though Sweet Potatoes are New World, the Polynesians had them around 300 AD. Leaving aside how they got there, it s
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 15, 2010
              • 0 Attachment
                Here is another interesting article. Even though Sweet Potatoes are
                New World, the Polynesians had them around 300 AD. Leaving aside how
                they got there, it's a very long way from Polynesia to Germany.

                http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A1984421

                Ranvaig
              • Huette von Ahrens
                We had a discussion on the SCA cooks list about whether Erdapfel meant potatoes or something else. At that time Dr. Thomas Gloning had these opinions, which I
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 15, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  We had a discussion on the SCA cooks list about whether Erdapfel meant potatoes or something else. At that time Dr. Thomas Gloning had these opinions, which I saved:

                  German recipes with potatoes seem to be
                  first attested somewhere in the 17th century. A
                  linguistic problem is that in some cases we don't know
                  if an expression like "Erdapfel" oder "Gruendling"
                  means the potatoe or something else. Up to the
                  1720ies, there are soup preparations with potatoes. --
                  If I remember correctly, the first attestation of
                  potatoes in Germany is from the end of the 16th
                  century: potatoes were part of a medical garden in
                  Norimberg (I don't recall at present where I read
                  that). Anyway: a German potatoe soup recipe from the
                  16th century would come as a great surprise for me.

                  Cheers,
                  Thomas

                  And this:

                  It seems that the use of potatoes became _widespread_
                  in Europe somewhen in the 17th and 18th centuries,
                  depending on the region. But the earliest culinary
                  uses and experiments in Europe are known since the
                  16th century. Here is some further material:

                  1. Potatoes were cultivated in mid-17th century
                  England

                  Gunter Wiegelmann, in his excellent book 'Alltags- und
                  Festspeisen [Dishes for everyday and dishes for
                  feasts](Marburg 1967) has an important chapter on
                  potatoes. He says among other things:

                  - -- "Der feldmassige Anbau war in England schon
                  in der Mitte des 17. Jahrhunderts - nach dem
                  Vorbild Irlands - ublich geworden und in den
                  Niederlanden auch seit 1670 bekannt" (p.76).
                  - -- Roughly: 'The cultivation [of potatoes] on
                  fields was common in England as early as in the
                  mid-17th century (after the model of Ireland)
                  and was known in the Netherlands since 1670'.

                  He mentions three books to back up this statement:

                  - -- Fuess, W.F.K.: Die Geschichte der Kartoffel
                  [The history of the potato], Berlin 1939, 57-62
                  - -- Salaman, R.N., The history and the social
                  influence of the potato. Cambridge 1949, 188ff.
                  - -- J.A. van Houtte, Economische en sociale
                  geschiedenis van de Lage Landen, Antwerpen 1964,
                  172.

                  2. Potatoes in butter 1591
                  Not a recipe but a description how potatoes were
                  cooked can be found in a letter of the Landgraf
                  Wilhelm IV von Hessen to the Kurfurst Christian
                  I. von Sachsen in 1591 (quoted from Wiegelmann p.
                  76 in his potato-chapter):

                  - -- "Wir uberschicken auch E.L. Under andern ein
                  gewechse so wir Vor wenig Jahren au? Italia
                  becommen, Und Taratouphli genandt wirdt (...)
                  Undenn ahn der wurzelnn hatt es Viele tubera
                  henkenn, dieselbige wenn sie gekocht werden,
                  seindt sie gar anmutig zu e?en, Mann mu? sie
                  aber
                  erstlich im Wasser uffsieden la?enn, so gehen die
                  oberste schalens ab, darnach thutt mann die bruhe
                  darvonn, Undt seudt sie in butter Vollendes
                  gahr".
                  - -- Roughly: 'We also send to your Highness
                  among other things a plant that we got from Italy
                  some years ago, called Taratouphli (...) Below,
                  at the root, there hang many tubers. If they are
                  cooked these tubers are very good to eat. But you
                  must first boil them in water, so that the
                  outer shell (peeling?) gets off, then pour the
                  cooking water away, and cook them to the point in
                  butter'. -- The article in the "Deutsches
                  Woerterbuch" (vol. 11, 244f.) says that
                  "Kartoffel" was derived from earlier "Tartuffel".


                  3. Spiced potatoes 1648

                  Hans Wiswe, in his 'Kulturgeschichte der
                  Kochkunst', says, among other things, that
                  potatoes began to be used _widespread_ only in
                  the 18th century, especially as food for the poor
                  (p.78). However, Wiswe quotes or rather
                  paraphrases a passage from a work on
                  gardening and the culinary use of garden plants
                  from the year 1648:

                  - -- "Die Kartoffeln werden gewaschen und in Wasser
                  'muerbe' gekocht. Nun wird das Wasser abgegossen.
                  Man laesst sie abkuehlen. Nun zieht man die
                  'auswendige [aufwendige_Wiswe] Haut' rein davon.
                  Die grossen Kartoffeln schneidet man ein- oder
                  zweimal auseinander, die kleinen laesst man
                  ganz. Dann tun man sie wieder in einen Topf,
                  giesst Wein darueber, tut Butter, Muskatblumen
                  und anderes Gewuerz sowie Salz daran und laesst
                  sie
                  fein uebersieden. Danach richtet man die Speise
                  an und streut Ingwer darueber" (Hoyer 1648,
                  second ed. 1651; Wiswe p. 125).
                  - -- Roughly: 'Wash the potatoes and boil them
                  well-cooked. Let cool down. Put away the outer
                  skin. Cut the big potatoes once or twice, the
                  smaller ones must not be cut. Then put them into
                  a pot again, add wine, butter, mace and other
                  spices and salt and let boil. Then serve it forth
                  and
                  sprinkle with ginger'.

                  4. Potatoes are 'quite common' in 1682 Wiswe points us
                  to an interesting passage in the 'Diaeteticon' of

                  Elsholtz (1682). Looking up that passage,
                  Elsholtz writes:
                  - -- "Man isset aber diese Tartuffeln theils zur
                  Lust und verenderung/ theils als eine naehrende
                  Speise/ weil sie nunmehr zimlich gemein bey
                  uns worden" (p. 31/32).
                  - -- Roughly: 'These potatoes ("tartuffeln") are
                  eaten as a dish of pleasure and a dish of
                  variety, but also as a nutritive dish. They are
                  now quite common here').

                  5. Potatoes in 'Olla podrida'?

                  Wiswe also mentions potatoes dealing with
                  (Spanish) recipes for Olla potrida, but the
                  recipe for "Hollapotrida" in Rumpolt (1581, fol.
                  137b-139b) does not mention potatoes. Nor does
                  the recipe for Olla podrida of Hernandez de
                  Maceras 1607.


                  6. Four potato-recipes in the 'Frauenzimmerlexikon'
                  (1715)

                  In the "Frauenzimmerlexikon [Lexicon for and
                  about women]" (1715), there are four recipes with
                  potatoes (cols. 1979-1981). Manfred Lemmer
                  comments on these recipes in his "Nachwort" (p.
                  23): "Wie die Rezepte lehren, wurde die Kartoffel
                  aber damals noch nicht als Beilage zum
                  Fleisch genossen, sondern in der Suppe oder als
                  Salat" (potato was used only in soups and as
                  salad). Now, it is important to know, that these
                  lines were written in 1980 by Manfred Lemmer, who
                  is also the editor of the facsimile of Marx
                  Rumpolt (1976) and probably one of the few
                  persons
                  who read Rumpolt entirely. I am quite sure that
                  Manfred Lemmer would have mentioned any potatoe
                  recipe already available in the cookbook of
                  Rumpolt. -- I read somewhere that an old potatoe
                  recipe might be in the second edition of Rumpolt
                  (1587), but I did not look up this source yet,
                  as I am working with the facsimile of the first
                  edition (1581).

                  7. Four potato-recipes in the 'Ouverture de
                  cuisine' (1604)

                  There are four (candidates for) recipes for
                  Tartoufle in Lancelot de Casteau's 'Ouverture de
                  cuisine' (1604). They are interpreted as recipes
                  for potatoes by the editors of the reprint of
                  this very rare cookbook:
                  Leo Moulin and Jacques Kother in the facsimile of
                  Lancelot de Casteau's 'Ouverture de cuisine'
                  (repr. Anvers & Bruxelles 1983) held the view
                  that potatoes were ment: "Ces quatre recettes de
                  pomme de terre constituent une des plus
                  precieuses revelations du livre de Lancelot de
                  Casteau" (p.255). They quote some evidence
                  for their position, but as far as I can see,
                  at least some of the quoted texts are also
                  uncertain.
                  There is a further reference to: Leo Moulin: La
                  Belgique á table. L'art de manger en Belgique.
                  Antwerpen (Esco Books)1979, 15-22, for the
                  diffusion of potatoes in Europe.

                  Here is the third of the four recipes:
                  - -- "Autrement [= Tartoufle autrement]. Prennez
                  la tartoufle par tranches, & mettez esteuuer auec
                  beurre, mariolaine haschee, du persin:
                  puis prennez quatre ou cinq iaulnes d'oeuf battus
                  auec vn peu de vin, & iettez le dessus tout en
                  bouillant, & tirez arriere du feu, & seruez
                  ainsi" (Lancelot de Casteau, Ouverture de
                  cuisine, Liege 1604, p.95).
                  - -- Roughly: '(Potatoes:) A different manner.
                  Take potatoes cut in slices and heat them with
                  butter, chopped (minced?) marjoram, parsley, then

                  take four or five egg yolks beaten with a bit of
                  wine, and put it over the potatoes while they are
                  still cooking and take it from the fire then
                  and serve it forth'. [Sort of tortilla?]

                  Best,
                  Thomas "

                  It is my humble opinion that erdapfel is not a potato of either sort.

                  On the other hand, there are recipes from English cookbooks in the late 16th and early 17th century for "potatoes" or "sweet potatoes". It is believed that what these recipes are actually calling for are what we now know as yams, which came from Africa and Asia.

                  Huette



                  --- On Mon, 11/15/10, Sharon Palmer <ranvaig@...> wrote:

                  > From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [cooking_rumpolt] Odd Question - Sweet Potatoes
                  > To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Monday, November 15, 2010, 12:28 PM
                  > >Greetings,
                  > >
                  > >Some cooks on another list were talking about sweet
                  > potato recipes in
                  > >late period, and one mentioned that there was a recipe
                  > in a German
                  > >cookbook.  Does that sound familiar to anyone?
                  >
                  > Rumpolt has one recipe for "Erdtepffel" which might be a
                  > potato sweet
                  > or white, or might be something else
                  > entirely.   When new foods are
                  > introduced, often they are given old names, and it's not
                  > easy to tell
                  > which is meant.
                  >
                  > Ranvaig
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >     cooking_rumpolt-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Sharon Palmer
                  ... There are many varieties of yam, and I haven t tasted all of them, but I ve never seen them described as sweet. The word potato is a New World word, first
                  Message 8 of 21 , Nov 15, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    >On the other hand, there are recipes from English cookbooks in the
                    >late 16th and early 17th century for "potatoes" or "sweet potatoes".
                    >It is believed that what these recipes are actually calling for are
                    >what we now know as yams, which came from Africa and Asia.

                    There are many varieties of yam, and I haven't tasted all of them,
                    but I've never seen them described as sweet.

                    The word potato is a New World word, first applied to sweet potatoes
                    Even if it is applied to an African yam, using that word implies that
                    they are aware of New world tubers.

                    Calling something a sweet potato, implies that you know other
                    potatoes that are not.

                    Ranvaig
                  • Euriol of Lothian
                    As I have been led to understand, the root vegetable sold in US stores as Yams are actually a variety of sweet potato. Euriol
                    Message 9 of 21 , Nov 15, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      As I have been led to understand, the root vegetable sold in US stores as "Yams"
                      are actually a variety of sweet potato.

                      Euriol




                      ________________________________
                      From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig@...>
                      To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Mon, November 15, 2010 4:17:26 PM
                      Subject: Re: [cooking_rumpolt] Odd Question - Sweet Potatoes


                      There are many varieties of yam, and I haven't tasted all of them,
                      but I've never seen them described as sweet.

                      The word potato is a New World word, first applied to sweet potatoes
                      Even if it is applied to an African yam, using that word implies that
                      they are aware of New world tubers.

                      Calling something a sweet potato, implies that you know other
                      potatoes that are not.

                      Ranvaig


                      ------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • lilinah@earthlink.net
                      ... According to what i have read, it is believed that these recipes actually *were* for sweet potatoes. They are native to North America and the Caribbean,
                      Message 10 of 21 , Nov 15, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Huette wrote:
                        > On the other hand, there are recipes from English cookbooks in the
                        > late 16th and early 17th century for "potatoes" or "sweet potatoes".
                        > It is believed that what these recipes are actually calling for are
                        > what we now know as yams, which came from Africa and Asia.

                        According to what i have read, it is believed that these recipes
                        actually *were* for sweet potatoes. They are native to North America
                        and the Caribbean, with which the Spanish and English were familiar
                        and where they eventually had some colonies. Columbus and his crew
                        had sweet potatoes, mentioning them on their fourth voyage, but may
                        have eaten them sooner.

                        Sweet potatoes (Ipomoea batatas) grow in subtropical and tropical
                        climates, originally, and later in temperate climates. Their were
                        called batatas in the language of areas of or near the Yucatan and
                        Honduras. And they are referred to as batatas in Spanish recipes.

                        Unfortunately, a few varieties of sweet potatos are known as yams in
                        the US, which adds to the confusion.

                        Peruvian potatoes, which were not known by Europeans until some ways
                        farther into the 16th c. (sweet potatoes were known earlier), had a
                        longer harder road to acceptance in Europe. Somehow the original name
                        for sweet potatoes got attached to the unrelated Peruvian roots, so
                        that the adjective sweet was later applied to the original batatas.

                        Yams, real yams, (genus Dioscorea) which originated in Africa and
                        Asia (and not the variety of sweet potato erroneously called yams),
                        have never become common in North America or Europe.

                        Having lived in Southeast Asia where certain varieties of real yams
                        are grown (but not sweet potatoes, not even the sweet potato
                        erroneously called yam), i have tasted quite a few yams. Most often
                        in Indonesia the huge, generally white or off white, starchy roots
                        are peeled, cut in cubes, cooked until soft, rubbed with spiced yeast
                        and allowed to ferment briefly, which in hot humid Indonesia only
                        takes a few hours; they are eaten as snack food.

                        There are varieties of Asian yams that have bright purple flesh,
                        which are used to make ice cream in the Philippines.
                        --
                        Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                        the persona formerly known as Anahita
                      • wheezul@canby.com
                        ... I m noting too that erdapfel is used to refer to fruit that grew on vines like squashes and melons harvested from the ground rather than in the air. I ll
                        Message 11 of 21 , Nov 15, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          >>On the other hand, there are recipes from English cookbooks in the
                          >>late 16th and early 17th century for "potatoes" or "sweet potatoes".
                          >>It is believed that what these recipes are actually calling for are
                          >>what we now know as yams, which came from Africa and Asia.
                          >
                          > There are many varieties of yam, and I haven't tasted all of them,
                          > but I've never seen them described as sweet.
                          >
                          > The word potato is a New World word, first applied to sweet potatoes
                          > Even if it is applied to an African yam, using that word implies that
                          > they are aware of New world tubers.
                          >
                          > Calling something a sweet potato, implies that you know other
                          > potatoes that are not.
                          >
                          > Ranvaig

                          I'm noting too that erdapfel is used to refer to fruit that grew on vines
                          like squashes and melons harvested from the ground rather than in the air.
                          I'll see if I can dig up the exact quote from Ryff's 1546 "Lustgarten der
                          Gesundtheit" (on BSB). It's somewhere around page 450.

                          Katherine
                        • Sharon Palmer
                          ... I occasionally see true yams, sometimes labeled name or nyame.or just true yam , Ranvaig
                          Message 12 of 21 , Nov 15, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            >As I have been led to understand, the root vegetable sold in US
                            >stores as "Yams"
                            >are actually a variety of sweet potato.
                            >

                            I occasionally see true yams, sometimes labeled name or nyame.or just
                            "true yam",

                            Ranvaig
                          • lilinah@earthlink.net
                            I m translating a modern German translation of part of a late 16th c. Persian cookbook, since i am likely to do better with my very scant modern German than my
                            Message 13 of 21 , Nov 21, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I'm translating a modern German translation of part of a late 16th c.
                              Persian cookbook, since i am likely to do better with my very scant
                              modern German than my non-existent Persian. I have translated the 60
                              recipes (some very short). I am having hang-ups in a few spots. Here
                              is one.

                              (a: = a umlaut; u: = u umlaut; ss = eszet)

                              This is the *complete* recipe... not too informative about the food,
                              but tells something about the cook :)

                              Was nun qeyma:-polaw as, so muss das dafu:r bestimmte qeyma: (n.36)
                              sehr zart und fein vorbereitet werden. [Ich,] dieser schuldbeladene
                              armselige Geringe, habe [dereinst] fu:r die Zubereitung von
                              derartigem qeyma von Soltan Hamza Mirza - Gott erbarme sich seiner
                              und vergebe ihm - ein anmutiges, blaues (kabud) Pferd als Belohnung
                              erhalten.

                              n.36. qeyma: (tu:rk. kiyma) bezeichnet eine in Fett angebratene und
                              gegarte, feingehackte Mischung aus Fleisch und Zwiebel, die mit
                              weiteren Zutaten angereichert werden kann.


                              My current very rough translation:

                              Now regarding qeyma:-polaw, so must that particular qeyma: (n.36) be
                              prepared very tender and refined. I, this fault-laden poor,
                              insubstantial (person), received [one day] for the preparation of
                              such a qeyma for Soltan Hamza Mirza - God have mercy on him and
                              forgive him - a graceful, blue (kabud) horse as a reward.

                              n.36. qeyma: (Turkish kiyma) means a finely chopped mixture of meat
                              and onion, which can be enriched with other ingredients, fried in fat
                              and cooked.

                              I welcome any improvements. And i have a few others, if that's ok.
                              --
                              Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                              the persona formerly known as Anahita
                            • ranvaig
                              ... Yes, please post them! I m traveling this week, but I ll be happy to check them (for what ever that s worth) when I get home again. Ranvaig
                              Message 14 of 21 , Nov 21, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, lilinah@... wrote:

                                >
                                > I welcome any improvements. And i have a few others, if that's ok.
                                > --
                                >
                                Yes, please post them! I'm traveling this week, but I'll be happy to check them (for what ever that's worth) when I get home again.

                                Ranvaig
                              • lilinah@earthlink.net
                                I am reposting, since other than Ranvaig s comment, i have gotten no feedback. I am not fully satisfied with my translation, so i m hoping to hear from youse
                                Message 15 of 21 , Dec 2, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I am reposting, since other than Ranvaig's comment, i have gotten no
                                  feedback. I am not fully satisfied with my translation, so i'm hoping
                                  to hear from youse guys and guyettes.

                                  === begin repost ===

                                  I'm translating a modern German translation of part of a late 16th c.
                                  Persian cookbook, since i am likely to do better with my very scant
                                  modern German than my non-existent Persian. I have translated the 60
                                  recipes (some very short). I am having hang-ups in a few spots. Here
                                  is one.

                                  (a: = a umlaut; u: = u umlaut; ss = eszet)

                                  This is the *complete* recipe... not too informative about the food,
                                  but tells something about the cook :)

                                  Was nun qeyma:-polaw as, so muss das dafu:r bestimmte qeyma: (n.36)
                                  sehr zart und fein vorbereitet werden. [Ich,] dieser schuldbeladene
                                  armselige Geringe, habe [dereinst] fu:r die Zubereitung von
                                  derartigem qeyma von Soltan Hamza Mirza - Gott erbarme sich seiner
                                  und vergebe ihm - ein anmutiges, blaues (kabud) Pferd als Belohnung
                                  erhalten.

                                  n.36. qeyma: (tu:rk. kiyma) bezeichnet eine in Fett angebratene und
                                  gegarte, feingehackte Mischung aus Fleisch und Zwiebel, die mit
                                  weiteren Zutaten angereichert werden kann.


                                  My current very rough translation:

                                  Now regarding qeyma-polaw, so must that particular qeyma (n.36) be
                                  prepared very tender and refined. I, this fault-laden, poor,
                                  insubstantial (person), received [one day] for the preparation of
                                  such a qeyma for Soltan Hamza Mirza - God have mercy on him and
                                  forgive him - a graceful, blue (kabud) horse as a reward.

                                  n.36. qeyma: (Turkish kiyma) means a finely chopped mixture of meat
                                  and onion, which can be enriched with other ingredients, fried in fat
                                  and cooked.

                                  === end repost ===

                                  I am especially concerned about the part that begins with ''dieser
                                  schuldbeladene...''. Have i understood it correctly? Also, Geringe
                                  appears to be a noun, but my poor miserable little paperback
                                  dictionary only shows it as an adjective, so i wonder if it has a
                                  particular meaning as a noun that has eluded me.
                                  --
                                  Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                                  the persona formerly known as Anahita
                                • xina007eu
                                  ... Hi Urtatim, Was nun qeyma:-polaw as What s this as ? Is the text correct? Not a correct or meaningful word in German. muss [...] zart und fein
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Dec 7, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, lilinah@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I am reposting, since other than Ranvaig's comment, i have gotten no
                                    > feedback. I am not fully satisfied with my translation, so i'm hoping
                                    > to hear from youse guys and guyettes.
                                    >
                                    > === begin repost ===
                                    >
                                    > I'm translating a modern German translation of part of a late 16th c.
                                    > Persian cookbook, since i am likely to do better with my very scant
                                    > modern German than my non-existent Persian. I have translated the 60
                                    > recipes (some very short). I am having hang-ups in a few spots. Here
                                    > is one.
                                    >
                                    > (a: = a umlaut; u: = u umlaut; ss = eszet)
                                    >
                                    > This is the *complete* recipe... not too informative about the food,
                                    > but tells something about the cook :)
                                    >
                                    > Was nun qeyma:-polaw as, so muss das dafu:r bestimmte qeyma: (n.36)
                                    > sehr zart und fein vorbereitet werden. [Ich,] dieser schuldbeladene
                                    > armselige Geringe, habe [dereinst] fu:r die Zubereitung von
                                    > derartigem qeyma von Soltan Hamza Mirza - Gott erbarme sich seiner
                                    > und vergebe ihm - ein anmutiges, blaues (kabud) Pferd als Belohnung
                                    > erhalten.
                                    >

                                    Hi Urtatim,

                                    "Was nun qeyma:-polaw as"
                                    What's this "as"? Is the text correct? Not a correct or meaningful word in German.

                                    "muss [...] zart und fein zubereitet werden": "zart und fein" can be adjectives (as you translated it) but also adverbs, referring to the way it's prepared: "must be prepared in a very delicate and refined manner". From the German text, it's impossible to tell which is correct.

                                    In some languages/cultures it is considered impolite to talk of oneself. This seems to be among them. It's probably a literary convention rather than an actual impression of what the author thought of himself.

                                    "dieser schuldbeladene armselige Geringe"
                                    "Schuldbeladen" usually means "burdened with guilt" but here something like "sinful" might be more appropriate. Personally, I'd use a translation like "this sinful, miserable, lowly person" for the whole phrase, but the actaul adjectives don't really matter. Adjectives in German can be used as nouns. In English you'd say "a <adjective> one" but in German no additional word like "one" is needed. So, "ein Geringer" is "a lowly one".

                                    By the way, you can type umlauts and other accented characters on your keyboard by holding down the ALT key and typing the character number on the numerical keypad. E.g. ALT-0252 will give you ü (u-umlaut), ALT-0228 is ä (a-umlaut), ALT-0223 is ß (Eszett).

                                    Hope that helps!

                                    Best regards,

                                    Christina
                                  • lilinah@earthlink.net
                                    ... Grrr. Not sure what happened, but should be: Was nun qeymä-polaw angeht, so muß das dafür bestimmte qeymä (n.36) sehr zart und fein vorbereitet werden.
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Dec 7, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Christina wrote:
                                      >"Was nun qeyma:-polaw as"
                                      >What's this "as"? Is the text correct? Not a
                                      >correct or meaningful word in German.

                                      Grrr. Not sure what happened, but should be:
                                      Was nun qeymä-polaw angeht, so muß das dafür
                                      bestimmte qeymä (n.36) sehr zart und fein
                                      vorbereitet werden. [Ich,] dieser schuldbeladene
                                      armselige Geringe, habe [dereinst] für die
                                      Zubereitung von derartigem qeymä von Soltan Hamza
                                      Mirza - Gott erbarme sich seiner und vergebe ihm
                                      - ein anmutiges, blaues (kabud) Pferd als
                                      Belohnung erhalten.

                                      (i left accented vowels and eszett in...)

                                      >"zart und fein" can be adjectives (as you
                                      >translated it) but also adverbs, referring to
                                      >the way it's prepared: "must be prepared in a
                                      >very delicate and refined manner". From the
                                      >German text, it's impossible to tell which is
                                      >correct.

                                      Thanks. I had noticed that and was hoping a
                                      native speaker, or at least someone with much
                                      more German than i, could tell the difference. I
                                      think i will go with the adverbial use.

                                      >In some languages/cultures it is considered
                                      >impolite to talk of oneself. This seems to be
                                      >among them. It's probably a literary convention
                                      >rather than an actual impression of what the
                                      >author thought of himself.

                                      Indeed. However, in other recipes the author
                                      lacks all modesty, so here it is clearly a
                                      literary convention.

                                      >"dieser schuldbeladene armselige Geringe"
                                      >"Schuldbeladen" usually means "burdened with
                                      >guilt" but here something like "sinful" might be
                                      >more appropriate. Personally, I'd use a
                                      >translation like "this sinful, miserable, lowly
                                      >person" for the whole phrase, but the actaul
                                      >adjectives don't really matter. Adjectives in
                                      >German can be used as nouns. In English you'd
                                      >say "a <adjective> one" but in German no
                                      >additional word like "one" is needed. So, "ein
                                      >Geringer" is "a lowly one".

                                      Thanks for the additional information and insight.

                                      >By the way, you can type umlauts and other
                                      >accented characters on your keyboard by holding
                                      >down the ALT key and typing the character number
                                      >on the numerical keypad. E.g. ALT-0252 will give
                                      >you ü (u-umlaut), ALT-0228 is ä (a-umlaut),
                                      >ALT-0223 is ß (Eszett).

                                      I can type accented vowels on my Macintosh
                                      keyboard, but they don't always come through in
                                      e-mail. Depending on a variety of issues,
                                      including the program that handles the mailing
                                      list, they can show up as odd characters.

                                      I left the characters in, so we'll see if the
                                      umlauted vowels and eszett show up fine for
                                      everyone, or look odd to some, or odd to everyone
                                      :)

                                      Thank you again so much for your helpful comments.
                                      --
                                      Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                                      the persona formerly known as Anahita
                                    • Sharon Palmer
                                      ... They look ok to me. I know some people have trouble with them, but I think it s clearer to use the umlauts. Ranvaig
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Dec 7, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        >I left the characters in, so we'll see if the
                                        >umlauted vowels and eszett show up fine for
                                        >everyone, or look odd to some, or odd to everyone

                                        They look ok to me. I know some people have trouble with them, but I
                                        think it's clearer to use the umlauts.

                                        Ranvaig
                                      • Sharon Palmer
                                        ... Perhaps you noticed it, but qeyma seems like the word usually spelled keema (which agrees with the description) and polaw like pilau. Ranvaig
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Dec 7, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          >Now regarding qeyma-polaw, so must that particular qeyma (n.36) be
                                          >prepared very tender and refined. I, this fault-laden, poor,
                                          >insubstantial (person), received [one day] for the preparation of
                                          >such a qeyma for Soltan Hamza Mirza - God have mercy on him and
                                          >forgive him - a graceful, blue (kabud) horse as a reward.
                                          >
                                          >n.36. qeyma: (Turkish kiyma) means a finely chopped mixture of meat
                                          >and onion, which can be enriched with other ingredients, fried in fat
                                          >and cooked.
                                          >

                                          Perhaps you noticed it, but qeyma seems like the word usually spelled
                                          "keema" (which agrees with the description) and "polaw" like pilau.

                                          Ranvaig
                                        • lilinah@earthlink.net
                                          ... I want to retain the transliteration of the original 16th c. spelling. Fragner notes in the article that modern Persian spelling has changed from that of
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Dec 7, 2010
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I posted:
                                            > >Now regarding qeyma-polaw, so must that particular qeyma (n.36) be
                                            >>prepared very tender and refined. I, this fault-laden, poor,
                                            >>insubstantial (person), received [one day] for the preparation of
                                            >>such a qeyma for Soltan Hamza Mirza - God have mercy on him and
                                            >>forgive him - a graceful, blue (kabud) horse as a reward.
                                            >>
                                            >>n.36. qeyma: (Turkish kiyma) means a finely chopped mixture of meat
                                            >>and onion, which can be enriched with other ingredients, fried in fat
                                            > >and cooked.

                                            Ranvaig remarked:
                                            >Perhaps you noticed it, but qeyma seems like the word usually spelled
                                            >"keema" (which agrees with the description) and "polaw" like pilau.

                                            I want to retain the transliteration of the original 16th c.
                                            spelling. Fragner notes in the article that modern Persian spelling
                                            has changed from that of the 16th c. and presents examples.
                                            --
                                            Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                                            the persona formerly known as Anahita
                                          • wheezul@canby.com
                                            ... I think most of the trouble happens in the digest format where yahoo strips special characters and replaces them with annoying question marks. Katherine
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Dec 7, 2010
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              >>I left the characters in, so we'll see if the
                                              >>umlauted vowels and eszett show up fine for
                                              >>everyone, or look odd to some, or odd to everyone
                                              >
                                              > They look ok to me. I know some people have trouble with them, but I
                                              > think it's clearer to use the umlauts.
                                              >
                                              > Ranvaig

                                              I think most of the trouble happens in the digest format where yahoo
                                              strips special characters and replaces them with annoying question marks.

                                              Katherine
                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.