Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [cooking_rumpolt] Massen

Expand Messages
  • ranvaig@columbus.rr.com
    ... I must not have been awake yet. I should have seen that. Does this look right? daß er in kurtzer frißt/ in der Kücheren viel lehrnen vnd nutz schaffen
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 4, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      >
      >also nutz is from benutzen - to use
      >see if that works for you.
      >
      I must not have been awake yet. I should have seen that. Does this look right?

      daß er in kurtzer frißt/ in der Kücheren viel lehrnen vnd nutz schaffen kan.
      that it in brief eats/ in the kitchens can create much learning and use.

      I'm not sure that "eat" is the right translation for "frißt", the root seems to be "fressen" "to eat, devour, feed, gourmandize". Could it mean "tasting" here?

      Ranvaig
    • emilio_szabo
      ... schaffen kan. ... root seems to be fressen to eat, devour, feed, gourmandize . Could it mean tasting here? It belongs to modern German Frist
      Message 2 of 29 , Jul 4, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        > daß er in kurtzer frißt/ in der Kücheren viel lehrnen vnd nutz
        schaffen kan.
        > that it in brief eats/ in the kitchens can create much learning and use.
        >
        > I'm not sure that "eat" is the right translation for "frißt", the
        root seems to be "fressen" "to eat, devour, feed, gourmandize".
        Could it mean "tasting" here?

        It belongs to modern German "Frist" (Noun), 'span of time'. Therefore,
        "in kurtzer frißt" means something like 'within a short span of time'.

        Emilio
      • emilio_szabo
        ... nutz is a noun here, the modern German form would be Nutzen . nutz schaffen means something like to produce useful things and to perform useful
        Message 3 of 29 , Jul 4, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          > >also nutz is from benutzen - to use
          > >see if that works for you.
          > >
          > I must not have been awake yet. I should have seen that.

          "nutz" is a noun here, the modern German form would be "Nutzen". "nutz
          schaffen" means something like 'to produce useful things and to
          perform useful actions' or possibly somewhat more elegant 'to be or
          become a useful member of the kitchen team'.

          Instead of "Kücheren" I read "Kücherey", which seems to refer to the
          whole work pertinent to the preparation of food in the kitchen.

          > daß er in kurtzer frißt/ in der Kücheren viel lehrnen vnd nutz
          schaffen kan.

          My translation of the whole passage (with an attempt, to mark the syntax):

          Therefore,
          if a young boy, 14 or 15 years old,
          who has gained almost complete reasonableness,
          will follow and stick to the points described above
          and
          if he will work diligently (which is necessary in all things),
          then there is no doubt, that within a short span of time,
          he will learn a lot and will be/become a useful member
          of the kitchen team.

          Does that make sense?

          E.
        • emilio_szabo
          The software killed my indention. That should have looked like this: ___ Therefore, ___ if a young boy, 14 or 15 years old, _________ who has gained almost
          Message 4 of 29 , Jul 4, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            The software killed my indention. That should have looked like this:

            ___ Therefore,
            ___ if a young boy, 14 or 15 years old,
            _________ who has gained almost complete reasonableness,
            ______ will follow and stick to the points described above
            ___ and
            ______ (if he) will work diligently (which is necessary in all things),
            ___ then there is no doubt, that within a short span of time,
            ______ he will learn a lot and will be/become a useful member
            ______ of the kitchen team.

            E.
          • tgrcat2001
            ... use.
            Message 5 of 29 , Jul 4, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, "emilio_szabo"
              <emilio_szabo@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > > daß er in kurtzer frißt/ in der Kücheren viel lehrnen vnd nutz
              > schaffen kan.
              > > that it in brief eats/ in the kitchens can create much learning and
              use.
              > >
              > > I'm not sure that "eat" is the right translation for "frißt", the
              > root seems to be "fressen" "to eat, devour, feed, gourmandize".
              > Could it mean "tasting" here?
              >
              > It belongs to modern German "Frist" (Noun), 'span of time'. Therefore,
              > "in kurtzer frißt" means something like 'within a short span of time'.
              >
              > Emilio
              >
            • tgrcat2001
              Yes, right on the button! Frist is like term. so kurze frist is like in a short term or quickly. Gwen Cat ... use.
              Message 6 of 29 , Jul 4, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Yes, right on the button!
                Frist is like term. so kurze frist is like in a short term or quickly.

                Gwen Cat

                --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, "emilio_szabo"
                <emilio_szabo@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > > daß er in kurtzer frißt/ in der Kücheren viel lehrnen vnd nutz
                > schaffen kan.
                > > that it in brief eats/ in the kitchens can create much learning and
                use.
                > >
                > > I'm not sure that "eat" is the right translation for "frißt", the
                > root seems to be "fressen" "to eat, devour, feed, gourmandize".
                > Could it mean "tasting" here?
                >
                > It belongs to modern German "Frist" (Noun), 'span of time'. Therefore,
                > "in kurtzer frißt" means something like 'within a short span of time'.
                >
                > Emilio
                >
              • Huette von Ahrens
                ... I would translate this sentence somewhat differently. To whit: Follows a clear and understandable instruction / in what way various dishes and treats [?]
                Message 7 of 29 , Jul 5, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- ranvaig@... wrote:

                  > Folget ein klärliche vnd verstandige vnterichtung/ wie mancherley Speisen vnd Trachten von
                  > viererly Vögeln vnd Federwildpret zu bereiten vnd zuzurichten sein.
                  >
                  > Follows a clear and understandable tuition/ how many dishes from various birds and gamebirds are
                  > prepared.
                  >
                  > Here is another case of using two words when one would do. Zu bereiten and zuzurichten both
                  > mean prepare. Is there a difference between the two?
                  >
                  > Ranvaig

                  I would translate this sentence somewhat differently. To whit:

                  Follows a clear and understandable instruction / in what way various dishes and treats [?] from
                  four different kinds of birds and wild gamebirds are to be prepared and to be cooked.

                  Yes, "vnterichtung" can be "tuition", but that is just an unclear word in English. My first
                  thought when I saw it in your translation was "payment for school". I personally think that the
                  word "instruction" or even "lesson" would be more precise and understandable.

                  "wie" can also mean "in what way". I think this is a more elegant meaning in this situation.

                  "mancherley" means "various" rather than "many".

                  "viererly" means "of four different kinds", rather than "various".

                  "Federwildpret" is an interesting word. I could find "Federwild" in the dictionary, meaning
                  "wild fowl" and "wildbret/wildpret" meaning "game". I am guessing that is means "wild gamebirds"
                  or "wild game fowl".

                  I noticed that you didn't seem to notice that the final phrase is "zu zurichten sein". I think
                  that it means more than "to be prepared", but rather "to be cooked". This would in essence be
                  saying "Here is how you prepare these birds and cook them." Preparing would be the cleaning,
                  stuffing, seasoning, etc. of the birds and then cooking would be the heating/baking/roasting of
                  the birds.

                  Huette




                  My thoughts are whirled like a potter's wheel; King Henry VI, part I: I, v
                  http://www.twoheartsentwinedpottery.com/



                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
                  Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.
                  http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow
                • Huette von Ahrens
                  Hi! I should have introduced myself first. I am Mistress Huette Aliza von und zu Ährens und Mechthildberg. I have been in the SCA for 33 years and have been
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 5, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi!

                    I should have introduced myself first.

                    I am Mistress Huette Aliza von und zu Ährens und Mechthildberg. I have been in the SCA
                    for 33 years and have been a Laurel for 26 years. My arts are cooking, costuming, dancing,
                    needlework and gaming [as in playing games, cards etc.]. I live in the Barony of the Angels,
                    in the Kingdom of Caid. I have done many banquets over the years and done many different
                    country themes. Of late, I have been working on translating the cookbook of Phillipine
                    Welser, who was a cousin of Sabina Welserin. She was a very interesting and nortorious
                    woman who was born into the wealthy Welser merchant/banker family. She was famed for her
                    beauty and erudition. She secretly married (1557) Archduke Ferdinand, second son of Holy
                    Roman Emperor Ferdinand I. And she wrote a cookbook, just like her cousin Sabina did.

                    I am not very far along, as my dearly beloved husband accidently erased my file of translations,
                    and several other projects, when he was trying to find space on my computer for some photos.
                    Sigh. So I am back to square one. And, no, I haven't killed him. But he is no longer allowed
                    to put anything on my computer without my being there.

                    Huette




                    My thoughts are whirled like a potter's wheel; King Henry VI, part I: I, v
                    http://www.twoheartsentwinedpottery.com/


                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                    Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                    Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
                    http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
                  • ranvaig@columbus.rr.com
                    ... Thank you for catching that. For anyone that hasn t seen the original, the Fraktur small y looks much like a fancy n . When you compare the two, you
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jul 5, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      >Instead of "Kücheren" I read "Kücherey", which seems to refer to the
                      >whole work pertinent to the preparation of food in the kitchen.
                      >

                      Thank you for catching that. For anyone that hasn't seen the original, the Fraktur small "y" looks much like a fancy "n". When you compare the two, you can see the difference, but its easy to miss if you arent paying attention. And I'd been away from Rumpolt for a couple of weeks when I did that.

                      Here is a link that shows Fraktur letters. Rumpolt's font is slightly different, but its close.
                      http://www.library.yale.edu/cataloging/music/fraktur.htm

                      Ranvaig
                    • emilio_szabo
                      ... There is also the possibility that verständig was used in the sense experienced, knowledgeable, expert in a certain field , which is documented in the
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jul 5, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        > > Folget ein klärliche vnd verständige vnterichtung/
                        > > Follows a clear and understandable tuition/
                        > I would translate this sentence somewhat differently. To whit:
                        > Follows a clear and understandable instruction /

                        There is also the possibility that "verständig" was used in the sense
                        'experienced, knowledgeable, expert in a certain field', which is
                        documented in the article about "verständig" in the Deutsches
                        Wörterbuch at http://www.dwb.uni-trier.de The other usage of
                        "verständig" in the sense 'understandable, comprehensible' is
                        documented for the 16th century as well (in modern German that would
                        be "verständlich", not "verständig").

                        > "viererly" means "of four different kinds", rather than "various".

                        True, "viererley" means "of four different kinds". Rumpolt, however,
                        wrote "vielerley" 'various'. Indeed, the chapter "wie mancherley
                        Speisen vnd Trachten von vielerley Vögeln vnd Federwildpret zu
                        bereiten vnd zuzurichten seyn" deals with more than four kinds of birds.

                        Emilio
                      • ranvaig@columbus.rr.com
                        ... Another typo.. thanks for the correction. So I managed to translate it right, even if I didnt type it right. Ranvaig
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jul 5, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          >True, "viererley" means "of four different kinds". Rumpolt, however,
                          >wrote "vielerley" 'various'.

                          Another typo.. thanks for the correction. So I managed to translate it right, even if I didnt type it right.

                          Ranvaig
                        • ranvaig@columbus.rr.com
                          Thanks for the help, I never said my German was strong, I m only doing this because no one else has.. and I m learning so much! Therefore, if a young boy, 14
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jul 5, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thanks for the help, I never said my German was strong, I'm only doing this because no one else has.. and I'm learning so much!

                            Therefore,
                            if a young boy, 14 or 15 years old,
                            who has gained almost complete reasonableness,
                            will follow and stick to the points described above
                            and
                            if he will work diligently (which is necessary in all things),
                            then there is no doubt, that within a short span of time,
                            he will learn a lot and will be/become a useful member
                            of the kitchen team.

                            I'm not sure I follow all of this. Where does "leisten" and "vnd gehorsam seyn" fit in your translation?
                            "in der Kücherei" might mean more than the room, but I dont follow translating as kitchen team either, could it be translated as "cookery" or maybe "in the field of cookery"?

                            Ranvaig
                          • ranvaig@columbus.rr.com
                            Hab aber gleichwol etwas nachzudencken dem Leser lassen wöllen/ weil ein jeder Koch keine art vnd weise/ eine Speise seines gefallens zu bereiten/ jmmerdar
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jul 5, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hab aber gleichwol etwas nachzudencken dem Leser lassen wöllen/ weil ein jeder Koch keine art vnd weise/ eine Speise seines gefallens zu bereiten/ jmmerdar eines auß dem andern zu machen vnnd zu zurichten/ gefasset.

                              Have however nevertheless something without thinking the reader will let/ because each one cook no art and manner/ prepares a dish his own to his own liking/ to always make and serve as ones own out of anothers.. gefasset

                              I'll risk looking foolish again. How should I translate gefasset? is this the verb "fassen" to believe, catch, conceive, grasp, understand. Which of these senses? Or is it something else?

                              And the word order is still all wonky in the first line... what does lassen wöllen refer to?

                              Ranvaig
                            • emilio_szabo
                              ... The first unit in question is folge leisten , which means something like to behave or act according to something that was said by an authority etc. and
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jul 5, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                > Therefore,
                                > if a young boy, 14 or 15 years old,
                                > who has gained almost complete reasonableness,
                                > will follow and stick to the points described above
                                > and
                                > if he will work diligently (which is necessary in all things),
                                > then there is no doubt, that within a short span of time,
                                > he will learn a lot and will be/become a useful member
                                > of the kitchen team.
                                >
                                > I'm not sure I follow all of this. Where does "leisten" and
                                > "vnd gehorsam seyn" fit in your translation?

                                The first unit in question is "folge leisten", which means something
                                like 'to behave or act according to something that was said by an
                                authority etc.' and I thought that 'to follow' was a possible
                                translation. I translated the second unit "gehorsam seyn" with "to
                                stick to", a more literal translation would be 'to obey ...', but I
                                thought that "to obey" sounds way too militaristic and authoritarian,
                                given the fact that Rumpolt is only an author... (But I am not a
                                native speaker/writer of English.)

                                Rereading my proposal, I must say, that my translation of German "wil"
                                with "will" was not a good idea. I guess, that 'to be prepared to ...'
                                might be better.

                                > "in der Kücherei" might mean more than the room, but I dont follow
                                translating as kitchen team either, could it be translated as
                                "cookery" or maybe "in the field of cookery"?

                                My proposal was certainly not a literal translation of "Kücherei" but
                                an attempt to render the whole phrase. "cookery" and "field of
                                cookery" are good translations in my eyes (see
                                http://www.dwb.uni-trier.de for "kücherei" and "kocherei/köcherei").
                                But while one can learn ("lehrnen") something in the field of cookery,
                                "nutz schaffen" refers to some application, to some kind of practice,
                                and this will be some kind of good work within a kitchen team.

                                Emilio
                              • xina007eu
                                ... weil ein jeder Koch keine art vnd weise/ eine Speise seines gefallens zu bereiten/ jmmerdar eines auß dem andern zu machen vnnd zu zurichten/ gefasset.
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jul 6, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, ranvaig@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hab aber gleichwol etwas nachzudencken dem Leser lassen wöllen/
                                  weil ein jeder Koch keine art vnd weise/ eine Speise seines gefallens
                                  zu bereiten/ jmmerdar eines auß dem andern zu machen vnnd zu
                                  zurichten/ gefasset.
                                  >
                                  > Have however nevertheless something without thinking the reader
                                  will let/ because each one cook no art and manner/ prepares a dish
                                  his own to his own liking/ to always make and serve as ones own out
                                  of anothers.. gefasset
                                  >
                                  > I'll risk looking foolish again. How should I translate gefasset?
                                  is this the verb "fassen" to believe, catch, conceive, grasp,
                                  understand. Which of these senses? Or is it something else?
                                  >
                                  > And the word order is still all wonky in the first line... what
                                  does lassen wöllen refer to?
                                  >
                                  > Ranvaig
                                  >

                                  "wöllen " = wollen
                                  "However, I wanted to leave the reader something to think about"

                                  In German, the present perfect tense is commonly used in colloquial
                                  German to indicate past actions, and if you use the present perfect
                                  of an axiliary together with another verb, you use the infinitive of
                                  the auxiliary instead of the past participle, e.g.:
                                  Present tense: ich will lassen
                                  Present perfect: ich habe lassen wollen
                                  (NOT *ich habe lassen gewollt).

                                  Best regards,

                                  Christina
                                • islenskr
                                  ... ein jeder Koch keine art vnd weise/ eine Speise seines gefallens zu bereiten/ jmmerdar eines auß dem andern zu machen vnnd zu zurichten/ gefasset. ...
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jul 8, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, ranvaig@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hab aber gleichwol etwas nachzudencken dem Leser lassen wöllen/ weil
                                    ein jeder Koch keine art vnd weise/ eine Speise seines gefallens zu
                                    bereiten/ jmmerdar eines auß dem andern zu machen vnnd zu zurichten/
                                    gefasset.
                                    >
                                    > Have however nevertheless something without thinking the reader
                                    will let/ because each one cook no art and manner/ prepares a dish his
                                    own to his own liking/ to always make and serve as ones own out of
                                    anothers.. gefasset
                                    >
                                    > I'll risk looking foolish again. How should I translate gefasset?
                                    is this the verb "fassen" to believe, catch, conceive, grasp,
                                    understand. Which of these senses? Or is it something else?
                                    >
                                    > And the word order is still all wonky in the first line... what does
                                    lassen wöllen refer to?
                                    >
                                    > Ranvaig
                                    >

                                    I believe the subject of the verb 'gefasset' is 'Koch'. I've noticed
                                    in later literature that the required form of 'haben' is sometimes
                                    dropped for elegance (meter, rhyme, etc). Here's a rough translation
                                    of my own:

                                    (I) did, however, want to leave the Reader something to think on/
                                    because every single cook has grasped no way and manner/ to prepare a
                                    dish of his own liking/ always making and serving one from another.

                                    If it were 'eines nach dem andern' (and I'm not sure there's a
                                    difference in MHG), I might translate it as 'always making and
                                    preparing one according to another'.

                                    I'm not happy with 'grasped', but can't think of anything else.

                                    I think the sense is that the recipes should not necessarily be
                                    followed to the letter and that cooks always strive to make their
                                    dishes better. That's the sense I get out of the German, anyway.

                                    Kate!
                                  • susana_miguela
                                    ... ... perhaps let/ ... say leave it in the clarified broth . But it didnt seem to say that. A discussion on the SCA-cooks list suggested that
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jul 21, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, ranvaig@... wrote:
                                      <deletia>
                                      > >Also, the line 'laß es in seiner eygenen Brüh lauter' I would
                                      > >translate as 'leave it in its own broth to clarify' or
                                      perhaps 'let/
                                      > >leave it clarify in its own broth'...I bet the verb is actually
                                      > >'lauterlassen'.
                                      >
                                      > The broth had been previously strained, so it seemed like it should
                                      say "leave it in the clarified broth". But it didnt seem to say
                                      that. A discussion on the SCA-cooks list suggested that "lauter"
                                      could mean "pure, clear, or strained"
                                      >
                                      > I TRULY appreciate the contributions.
                                      >
                                      > Ranvaig
                                      >
                                      Sorry this is late, I've been off-line for a while . . . .
                                      When you strain broth, some of the cooked-down ingredients always go
                                      through the strainer (at least, every strainer I've ever owned!) and
                                      then settle out to the bottom of the dish, so when you want really
                                      clear broth (for consomme' or aspic, for instance) it's generally
                                      necessary to let the broth sit, then spoon or siphon the *really*
                                      clear broth off the top. (Unless you break an egg into it, and let
                                      the egg gather up the sediment, but then the broth might taste of
                                      egg, which might not be the flavor the finished dish wants. I make
                                      soup with my broth, not aspic, so I've never tried that way.) So
                                      your original, more literal translation could be correct from a
                                      technique point of view - I can see letting the cooked meat sit in
                                      its own broth for a bit; the broth would continue to self-clarify,
                                      which is much prettier for a formal/fancy meal, and the meat might
                                      dry out less than if plated and set in the warming-oven!

                                      Oh, sorry, introduction also called for:
                                      Susana Miguela Narvaez, a late-16th Century Spaniard whose husband
                                      has a late-16th-Century German persona so we've decided that "they"
                                      live in the Germanies, so obviously Susana now has German neighbors
                                      to discuss cooking with and German butchers, gardeners, markets &
                                      ingredients to deal with . . . I'm up to Chapter 5 in a first-year
                                      German textbook, so probably I'll receive more help from the List's
                                      translations that I can give, but I'm an enthusiastic cook and reader
                                      of new recipes.
                                      I've been out of the SCA for about 15 years; other interests include
                                      but are not limited to costuming, embroidery, historical fencing,
                                      leatherwork, gardening, food preservation and music (I'm audience,
                                      not a performer).

                                      Susi
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.