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Re: [cooking_rumpolt] OT: 16th c. German, not Rumpolt

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  • lilinah@earthlink.net
    Original recipe: Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen. Daruntter hagt
    Message 1 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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      Original recipe:
      Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
      voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
      Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
      im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
      sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.

      Ranvaig translated it as:
      >Item, sheep meat, chopped small, that one puts a spoonful on a grape
      >leaf, one winds (or wraps) it together like a dumpling, among it one
      >also has sour plums, one boils off only in water, that should be for
      >them also a good lordly dish and has thereto the vine leaves always
      >over the filling.

      BTW, I have found partially moist sour yellow plums, which are quite
      small, in the refrigerator case of my local Persian market. They are
      quite tart, and prunes are no substitute because prunes are sweet.
      I've eaten Tabriz Kofte, a massively huge meatball with a small
      filling of chopped sour yellow plums, at a local Azerbaijani
      restaurant. Both the Ottomans and the Persians fought over the
      territory that is now Azerbaijan, and apparently both thought that
      Azerbaijani cooks were among the best.

      I don't know if sour yellow plums are called for in any European
      cuisines, but they are frequently used in 15th and 16th c. Ottoman
      cuisine, according to surviving menus and food purchase records. The
      mid-15th century translator of al-Baghdadi's cookbook, who also added
      around 80 of his own recipes to the manuscript, was from the city of
      Shirvan in what is now Azerbaijan. And those little yellow plums are
      used in a number of his recipes, leading me to think they were used
      in Persian and Azerbaijani dishes, too.

      Shirvani also altered a number of al-Baghdadi's recipes to suit the
      palace taste, so serving the 13th c. recipes as originally written
      may well not be how they were cooked in the kitchens of the Sultans.

      Hmmm, i wonder if they are similar to Japanses ume, which are rather
      tiny plums. Im only familiar with the preserved salted kind, which
      are, well, salty, but also quite sour.

      Anyway, i am digressing from medieval German, so i will stop now.
      --
      Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
      the persona formerly known as Anahita
    • wheezul@canby.com
      ... In terms of meaning that it is a dish the word s nuance is that it is the arrangement (and not the food itself per se) and it also related to the word
      Message 2 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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        > I disagree with your interpretation of gericht.  Yes, Gericht is court of
        > law, and gericht is associated with right/correctness, BUT in this case
        > 'ein gericht' is 'a dish' as in prepared food.  I do not think the
        > definition has changed from then to modern.

        In terms of meaning that it is 'a dish' the word's nuance is that it is
        the "arrangement" (and not the food itself per se) and it also related to
        the word 'right' or correctness. I could see why you might want to choose
        that term. Conceptually though, there is still a somewhat similar nuance
        of meaning. There are 29 definitions of the noun gericht. Most of them
        relate to the concept of right as either correctness of form or legal
        right. I do not find the idea of gericht as a dish incongruent with the
        meaning I think the sentence fragment holds (i.e. is it a good
        arrangement, correct, done?)
        >
        > As for who the ihnen refers to I would lean toward a particular people. 
        > not having seen how this fits in context I hesitate to guess, but if it is
        > part of a travel report then perhaps the ihnen are his hosts????

        It's really hard to say without reading other recipes or the entire text,
        but normally I find that hyperbole is at the beginning or the end of a
        recipe and not in the middle of the instructions. That the author
        announces it is a good lordly dish before telling you the degree of
        doneness of the leaves just doesn't make sense logically (and isn't
        frankly, very Germanic). Weirder things have been written, but I think I
        make a case for my translation. There is a problem with taking something
        out of context so more information might be gleaned from the surrounding
        paragraphs.

        Katherine
      • Johnna Holloway
        But of course he wasn t a cook and he was born in Bohemia. He was a pensioned chief clerk and mining engineer to the Fugger (the German mercantile and banking
        Message 3 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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          But of course he wasn't a cook and he was born in Bohemia.
          He was a pensioned chief clerk and mining engineer to the Fugger (the
          German mercantile and banking dynasty).

          He described foods; he didn't cook them.

          Johnnae

          On Mar 9, 2010, at 1:27 PM, wheezul@... wrote:

          > > I disagree with your interpretation of gericht.� Yes, Gericht is
          > court of
          > > law, and gericht is associated with right/correctness, BUT in this
          > case
          > > 'ein gericht' is 'a dish' as in prepared food.� I do not think the
          > > definition has changed from then to modern.
          >
          > In terms of meaning that it is 'a dish' the word's nuance is that it
          > is
          > the "arrangement" (and not the food itself per se) and it also
          > related to
          > the word 'right' or correctness. I could see why you might want to
          > choose
          > that term. Conceptually though, there is still a somewhat similar
          > nuance
          > of meaning. There are 29 definitions of the noun gericht. Most of them
          > relate to the concept of right as either correctness of form or legal
          > right. I do not find the idea of gericht as a dish incongruent with
          > the
          > meaning I think the sentence fragment holds (i.e. is it a good
          > arrangement, correct, done?)
          > >
          > > As for who the ihnen refers to I would lean toward a particular
          > people.�
          > > not having seen how this fits in context I hesitate to guess, but
          > if it is
          > > part of a travel report then perhaps the ihnen are his hosts????
          >
          > It's really hard to say without reading other recipes or the entire
          > text,
          > but normally I find that hyperbole is at the beginning or the end of a
          > recipe and not in the middle of the instructions. That the author
          > announces it is a good lordly dish before telling you the degree of
          > doneness of the leaves just doesn't make sense logically (and isn't
          > frankly, very Germanic). Weirder things have been written, but I
          > think I
          > make a case for my translation. There is a problem with taking
          > something
          > out of context so more information might be gleaned from the
          > surrounding
          > paragraphs.
          >
          > Katherine
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • wheezul@canby.com
          Not very engineer like either ;) I d be interested in reading the preceeding paragraph. Katherine
          Message 4 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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            Not very engineer like either ;) I'd be interested in reading the
            preceeding paragraph.

            Katherine

            > But of course he wasn't a cook and he was born in Bohemia.
            > He was a pensioned chief clerk and mining engineer to the Fugger (the
            > German mercantile and banking dynasty).
            >
            > He described foods; he didn't cook them.
            >
            > Johnnae
          • lilinah@earthlink.net
            Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen. Daruntter hagt man auch sawere
            Message 5 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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              Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
              voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
              Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
              im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
              sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.

              Katherine wrote:
              >This sentence seems to be a sticking point.
              >
              >das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
              >sein

              Yup... and the rest of it, too:
              das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
              sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail

              >Let's analyze each word for nuance because as translators, especially ones
              >not fluent in the language from birth, tend to go with what matches our
              >perception and we don't understand the breadth of a word. Especially
              >since we are talking older forms.

              Snipping the word by word analysis...

              There is another set of nuances, to which you alluded but which you
              elided... the nuances of foody language.

              Now Dernschwam was a relatively sophisticated man and may have
              grasped some of those nuances, at least as regards European food. But
              he was no cook, and some of his descriptions show his prejudice
              against Ottoman food.
              --
              Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
              the persona formerly known as Anahita
            • lilinah@earthlink.net
              The excerpt in which Dernschwam talks about food and various dishes is on Thomas Gloning s site: http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/dernfood.htm I have also
              Message 6 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                The excerpt in which Dernschwam talks about food and various dishes
                is on Thomas Gloning's site:
                http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/dernfood.htm

                I have also copied it and saved it in Rich Text Format (rtf) and put
                it in the Files section of this list on Yahoo.

                It begins on page 123 of his Tagebuch as published in 1923, and goes
                through 129, with an edit on p. 130 and continuing with part of p. 131

                Bear in mind that the text includes his transcriptions of some
                Ottoman words, the names of specific food preparations, such as
                czorba, which is Turkish for soup, now written as chorba.
                --
                Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                the persona formerly known as Anahita
              • Cat .
                Thank you, in skimming the text in the link that word was eluding me.  In this context does Printzsch mean Princely or is this another Turkish word
                Message 7 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                  Thank you, in skimming the text in the link that word was eluding me.  In this context does Printzsch mean Princely or is this another Turkish word translation I am missing?

                  The rest of the text reads fairly well, though I can definetely hear the 'Bohemian' accent in his writing, but knowing that makes figuring out some of the words easier.

                  Thanks for the new reading matter.
                  Gwen Cat




                  ________________________________
                  From: "lilinah@..." <lilinah@...>
                  To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 2:20:05 PM
                  Subject: [cooking_rumpolt] Dernschwam text, was OT: 16th c. German, not Rumpolt

                   
                  The excerpt in which Dernschwam talks about food and various dishes
                  is on Thomas Gloning's site:
                  http://www.uni- giessen.de/ gloning/tx/ dernfood. htm

                  I have also copied it and saved it in Rich Text Format (rtf) and put
                  it in the Files section of this list on Yahoo.

                  It begins on page 123 of his Tagebuch as published in 1923, and goes
                  through 129, with an edit on p. 130 and continuing with part of p. 131

                  Bear in mind that the text includes his transcriptions of some
                  Ottoman words, the names of specific food preparations, such as
                  czorba, which is Turkish for soup, now written as chorba.
                  --
                  Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                  the persona formerly known as Anahita






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Cat .
                  to perhaps clarify dish versus arrangement let me quote this paragraph from the same text:: Die turkhen essen vnd siczen alle auff der erden vnd, darnachs
                  Message 8 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                    to perhaps clarify 'dish' versus 'arrangement' let me quote this paragraph from the same text::

                    Die turkhen essen vnd siczen alle auff der erden vnd, darnachs
                    jeder vermag, auff die erden ein dakhen ader tebich vndergepraith,
                    siczen sy zw rings herumb, haben khain tisch. Wer es
                    vermag, der brait ein sophra auff, das ist ein rund leder,
                    darauff seczt er ein braitte hulczene ader kupffrene, verzintte,
                    flache schussel, dorein seczt man ein gericht ader 2 ader 3,
                    darczw broth vnd loffell; nent man syney. Khain thischtuch
                    praucht man nicht, sunder wan mans herlich will haltten, zw
                    rundt vmb ein lang handtuch; das nent man peschkor.

                    specifically the sentence: "Wer es vermag, der brait ein sophra auff, das ist ein rund leder, darauff seczt er ein braitte hulczene ader kupffrene, verzintte,
                    flache schussel, dorein seczt man ein gericht ader 2 ader 3,darczw broth vnd loffell; nent man syney. "

                    "Who so wishes, spreads out a sophra, that is a round leather, thereon he sets a wide woodern or copper, tinned flat bowl, therein one sets one dish or 2 or 3, thereto bread and spoon, one calls (this) syney."

                    The rest of the sentence mentions they sit on the ground (or on cloths or small rugs) and have no table, do not need a table cloth and if they want it to be 'fancy' (or lordly) they use a long towled (hand cloth) that is called a peschkor.

                    In service and curiosity
                    Gwen Cat



                     



                    ________________________________
                    From: "wheezul@..." <wheezul@...>
                    To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 11:27:36 AM
                    Subject: Re: [cooking_rumpolt] OT: 16th c. German, not Rumpolt

                     
                    > I disagree with your interpretation of gericht.  Yes, Gericht is court of
                    > law, and gericht is associated with right/correctness, BUT in this case
                    > 'ein gericht' is 'a dish' as in prepared food.  I do not think the
                    > definition has changed from then to modern.

                    In terms of meaning that it is 'a dish' the word's nuance is that it is
                    the "arrangement" (and not the food itself per se) and it also related to
                    the word 'right' or correctness. I could see why you might want to choose
                    that term. Conceptually though, there is still a somewhat similar nuance
                    of meaning. There are 29 definitions of the noun gericht. Most of them
                    relate to the concept of right as either correctness of form or legal
                    right. I do not find the idea of gericht as a dish incongruent with the
                    meaning I think the sentence fragment holds (i.e. is it a good
                    arrangement, correct, done?)
                    >
                    > As for who the ihnen refers to I would lean toward a particular people. 
                    > not having seen how this fits in context I hesitate to guess, but if it is
                    > part of a travel report then perhaps the ihnen are his hosts????

                    It's really hard to say without reading other recipes or the entire text,
                    but normally I find that hyperbole is at the beginning or the end of a
                    recipe and not in the middle of the instructions. That the author
                    announces it is a good lordly dish before telling you the degree of
                    doneness of the leaves just doesn't make sense logically (and isn't
                    frankly, very Germanic). Weirder things have been written, but I think I
                    make a case for my translation. There is a problem with taking something
                    out of context so more information might be gleaned from the surrounding
                    paragraphs.

                    Katherine







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • lilinah@earthlink.net
                    ... It is Ottoman for rice, from a Farsi word. One famous dish, birinc (now written pirinc-cedilla) herisesi, is a dish of rice cooked first in chicken broth,
                    Message 9 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                      Gwen Cat wrote:
                      >Thank you, in skimming the text in the link that word was eluding
                      >me. In this context does Printzsch mean Princely or is this another
                      >Turkish word translation I am missing?

                      It is Ottoman for rice, from a Farsi word.

                      One famous dish, birinc (now written pirinc-cedilla) herisesi, is a
                      dish of rice cooked first in chicken broth, then with milk, until it
                      is porridge, then season with salt and sugar to taste. Next stir in
                      shredded cooked chicken breast and place in a serving dish. Top with
                      clarified butter, sprinkle with rosewater, dust with powdered sugar,
                      and eat.
                      --
                      Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                      the persona formerly known as Anahita
                    • Cat .
                      DOH!  Printzsch haist reys! which I was taking to mean the start of the recipe (rice cooked in a sheep meat soup....) instead of the straight translation
                      Message 10 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                        DOH!  Printzsch haist reys!
                        which I was taking to mean the start of the recipe (rice cooked in a sheep meat soup....) instead of the straight translation Printzsch means rice - DOH!

                        Thanks again.
                        Gwen time to stop, brain full for today ;-) Cat




                        ________________________________
                        From: "lilinah@..." <lilinah@...>
                        To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 3:14:20 PM
                        Subject: Re: [cooking_rumpolt] Dernschwam text, was OT: 16th c. German, not Rumpolt

                         
                        Gwen Cat wrote:
                        >Thank you, in skimming the text in the link that word was eluding
                        >me. In this context does Printzsch mean Princely or is this another
                        >Turkish word translation I am missing?

                        It is Ottoman for rice, from a Farsi word.

                        One famous dish, birinc (now written pirinc-cedilla) herisesi, is a
                        dish of rice cooked first in chicken broth, then with milk, until it
                        is porridge, then season with salt and sugar to taste. Next stir in
                        shredded cooked chicken breast and place in a serving dish. Top with
                        clarified butter, sprinkle with rosewater, dust with powdered sugar,
                        and eat.
                        --
                        Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                        the persona formerly known as Anahita






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • lilinah@earthlink.net
                        ... BTW, this is a simplified paraphrase of an actual mid-15th c. Ottoman recipe. I didn t want to bore everyone with the whole recipe. -- Urtatim [that s
                        Message 11 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                          I wrote:
                          >One famous dish, birinc (now written pirinc-cedilla) herisesi, is a
                          >dish of rice cooked first in chicken broth, then with milk, until it
                          >is porridge, then season with salt and sugar to taste. Next stir in
                          >shredded cooked chicken breast and place in a serving dish. Top with
                          >clarified butter, sprinkle with rosewater, dust with powdered sugar,
                          >and eat.

                          BTW, this is a simplified paraphrase of an actual mid-15th c. Ottoman
                          recipe. I didn't want to bore everyone with the whole recipe.

                          --
                          Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                          the persona formerly known as Anahita
                        • wheezul@canby.com
                          ... Thank you for pointing me to the right place to look. Very interesting - I lived in Turkey for 2 years :) The paragraph before uses the word to mean more
                          Message 12 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                            >
                            > There is another set of nuances, to which you alluded but which you
                            > elided... the nuances of foody language.
                            >
                            > Now Dernschwam was a relatively sophisticated man and may have
                            > grasped some of those nuances, at least as regards European food. But
                            > he was no cook, and some of his descriptions show his prejudice
                            > against Ottoman food.
                            > --
                            > Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                            > the persona formerly known as Anahita

                            Thank you for pointing me to the right place to look. Very interesting -
                            I lived in Turkey for 2 years :)

                            The paragraph before uses the word to mean more of a preparation/stage of
                            the dish to have yogurt added to it.

                            The paragraph after starts with the commentary 'Mer sol bey inen auch fwr
                            ein kostlich gericht gehaltten' which seems to tie to the paragraph
                            before. And then further in the paragraph gericht is used for
                            dish/preparation.

                            Based on the 'mer sol bey inen' in the following paragraph, I'd go with
                            the translation of by them it is a good, dish. It is odd in placement
                            based on the other commentaries. Perhaps the fail could be viel (much) -
                            so that the sense of the last sentence matches?

                            Katherine
                          • Sharon Palmer
                            ... Rumpolt has recipes for Hungarian plums, which I believe are the small sour, yellow plums. Ranvaig
                            Message 13 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                              >I don't know if sour yellow plums are called for in any European
                              >cuisines,

                              Rumpolt has recipes for Hungarian plums, which I believe are the
                              small sour, yellow plums.

                              Ranvaig
                            • Sharon Palmer
                              ... Perhaps I should have annotated my translation more. I took it to mean that they .. the Turks considered it a lordly (or perhaps pretty) dish *because*
                              Message 14 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                                >that should be for them also a good lordly dish and has thereto the
                                >vine leaves always
                                >over the filling.

                                Perhaps I should have annotated my translation more. I took it to
                                mean that "they".. the Turks considered it a lordly (or perhaps
                                pretty) dish *because* the meat was wrapped in the grape leaves. And
                                I would agree that this statement is not about doneness.

                                And I see I missed much good discussion. I'm not sure if it helps or
                                confuses the issue to say that the Early New High German to English
                                dictionary says that "richte" is a course in a meal. These
                                definitions are taken from Dasypodius, a 1536 German to Latin
                                dictionary.

                                http://www.germanstudies.org.uk/enhg_dic/enhg_dicr.htm


                                Ranvaig
                              • xina007eu
                                ... Hi all, I think the fail in hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail is the same as feil in e.g. the old-fashioned terms feilbieten - to offer for
                                Message 15 of 30 , Mar 12, 2010
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                                  --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, lilinah@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I hope it is not inappropriate to post this here. It's 16th c. German
                                  > and about food, but not from Rumpolt...
                                  >
                                  > I'm teaching a class on 15th and 16th c. Ottoman cooking very soon.
                                  > Stuffed vine leaves do not show up in Ottoman cookbooks until the
                                  > 18th or 19th century. However, Hans Dernschwam mentions them in his
                                  > account of his visit to Kostantaniye (Ottoman for Constantinople) in
                                  > the late 16th c.
                                  >
                                  > Here is his description from Thomas Gloning's site
                                  > http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/dernfood.htm
                                  >
                                  > Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
                                  > voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
                                  > Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
                                  > im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                                  > sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.
                                  >
                                  > I've got it *very roughly* translated, up the last two lines, where i
                                  >

                                  Hi all,

                                  I think the "fail" in "hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail"
                                  is the same as "feil" in e.g. the old-fashioned terms "feilbieten"- to offer for sale, "wohlfeil sein" - to be available at a low price.

                                  So my guess is that "hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail"
                                  means something like "in addition, vine leaves are available everywhere". "Es hat" is South German dialect for standard German "es gibt".
                                  See the Grimm dictionary entry about "feil":
                                  "1) feil sein: die sache ist feil, nicht feil, zu haben, nicht zu haben"
                                  Wonderful phonetic spelling, by the way, also in the other quotation :-)

                                  Best regards,

                                  Christina
                                • Cat .
                                  Hi Christina thanks for posting.  This rings true to me.  I was thinking of because vine leaves fall (thinking we have the vines. so lets use the leaves...)
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Mar 12, 2010
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                                    Hi Christina

                                    thanks for posting.  This rings true to me.  I was thinking of because vine leaves fall (thinking we have the vines. so lets use the leaves...)  and your answer  makes sense both in that context and in the use of the words.

                                    THANKS
                                    Gwen Cat




                                    ________________________________
                                    From: xina007eu <Christina_Lemke@...>
                                    To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 11:20:01 AM
                                    Subject: [cooking_rumpolt] Re: OT: 16th c. German, not Rumpolt

                                     


                                    --- In cooking_rumpolt@ yahoogroups. com, lilinah@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I hope it is not inappropriate to post this here. It's 16th c. German
                                    > and about food, but not from Rumpolt...
                                    >
                                    > I'm teaching a class on 15th and 16th c. Ottoman cooking very soon.
                                    > Stuffed vine leaves do not show up in Ottoman cookbooks until the
                                    > 18th or 19th century. However, Hans Dernschwam mentions them in his
                                    > account of his visit to Kostantaniye (Ottoman for Constantinople) in
                                    > the late 16th c.
                                    >
                                    > Here is his description from Thomas Gloning's site
                                    > http://www.uni- giessen.de/ gloning/tx/ dernfood. htm
                                    >
                                    > Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
                                    > voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
                                    > Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
                                    > im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                                    > sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.
                                    >
                                    > I've got it *very roughly* translated, up the last two lines, where i
                                    >

                                    Hi all,

                                    I think the "fail" in "hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail"
                                    is the same as "feil" in e.g. the old-fashioned terms "feilbieten" - to offer for sale, "wohlfeil sein" - to be available at a low price.

                                    So my guess is that "hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail"
                                    means something like "in addition, vine leaves are available everywhere". "Es hat" is South German dialect for standard German "es gibt".
                                    See the Grimm dictionary entry about "feil":
                                    "1) feil sein: die sache ist feil, nicht feil, zu haben, nicht zu haben"
                                    Wonderful phonetic spelling, by the way, also in the other quotation :-)

                                    Best regards,

                                    Christina







                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • xina007eu
                                    ... Hi Gwen Cat, I agree with you. The inen are the Turks. He is saying that this is supposed to be (sol) ein good marvelous dish (ein guth, herlich gericht)
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Mar 17, 2010
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                                      --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, "Cat ." <tgrcat2001@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Thank you for repeating the link.  I am skimming things as I am at work.  and having skimmed over the link I would suggest the ihnen is the Turks (turkish peoples) since the entire article is about the food they eat (and his opening statement seems he is underwhelmed: the turks eat poor wretched (miserable) foods/dishes that one shudders (to think about eating them)...
                                      >
                                      > In Service
                                      > Gwen Cat
                                      >
                                      >

                                      Hi Gwen Cat,
                                      I agree with you. The "inen" are the Turks. He is saying that this is supposed to be (sol) ein good marvelous dish (ein guth, herlich gericht) for or among them (bey inen). Throughout the text "sy" (sie=they), "ire" (ihre=their), "inen" (ihnen = them) refers to the Turks.
                                      He also mentions that they eat a lot of grapes which would mean that vine leaves would indeed be widely available:
                                      "Vmb Constantinapol weit vnd prait fressen sy die weinper im herbst auff." (In a large area around Constantinople they eat up the grapes in autumn). Wow, that is really rude, "fressen" is used for animals, not people! However, I guess if a Turkish traveller had gone to Germany during that time, his comments would also have been quite rude - political correctness hadn't been invented yet.

                                      Best regards,

                                      Christina
                                    • Carowyn Silveroak
                                      Greetings! ... In Pennsylvania Dutch, it means to gobble , like we d say someone s snarfing their food faster than they really need to. So it can refer to
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Mar 18, 2010
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                                        Greetings!

                                        >Wow, that is really rude, "fressen" is used for animals,
                                        > not people!

                                        In Pennsylvania Dutch, it means "to gobble", like we'd say someone's
                                        snarfing their food faster than they really need to. So it can refer to
                                        either people or animals......

                                        But I've heard it's *really* a rude word in Yiddish!!

                                        -Carowyn, who was known as a "fresser" when a child in a Penna Dutch
                                        community, but *not* in Yiddish! ;-)
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