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Re: [cooking_rumpolt] OT: 16th c. German, not Rumpolt

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  • lilinah@earthlink.net
    ... I really love that opening :0) Clearly Dernschwam had his own ideas of what was good food, and what he was seeing in Turkiye did not meet his expectations.
    Message 1 of 30 , Mar 9 10:19 AM
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      Gwen Cat wrote:
      >Thank you for repeating the link. I am skimming things as I am at
      >work. and having skimmed over the link I would suggest the ihnen is
      >the Turks (turkish peoples) since the entire article is about the
      >food they eat (and his opening statement seems he is underwhelmed:
      >the turks eat poor wretched (miserable) foods/dishes that one
      >shudders (to think about eating them)...

      I really love that opening :0)

      Clearly Dernschwam had his own ideas of what was good food, and what
      he was seeing in Turkiye did not meet his expectations. I suspect
      that we can learn a bit about European attitudes to their own
      cuisines by reading their descriptions of food they come across in
      foreign countries.

      Dernschwam has more derogatory comments farther along, too.
      --
      Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
      the persona formerly known as Anahita
    • lilinah@earthlink.net
      Original recipe: Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen. Daruntter hagt
      Message 2 of 30 , Mar 9 10:22 AM
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        Original recipe:
        Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
        voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
        Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
        im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
        sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.

        Ranvaig translated it as:
        >Item, sheep meat, chopped small, that one puts a spoonful on a grape
        >leaf, one winds (or wraps) it together like a dumpling, among it one
        >also has sour plums, one boils off only in water, that should be for
        >them also a good lordly dish and has thereto the vine leaves always
        >over the filling.

        BTW, I have found partially moist sour yellow plums, which are quite
        small, in the refrigerator case of my local Persian market. They are
        quite tart, and prunes are no substitute because prunes are sweet.
        I've eaten Tabriz Kofte, a massively huge meatball with a small
        filling of chopped sour yellow plums, at a local Azerbaijani
        restaurant. Both the Ottomans and the Persians fought over the
        territory that is now Azerbaijan, and apparently both thought that
        Azerbaijani cooks were among the best.

        I don't know if sour yellow plums are called for in any European
        cuisines, but they are frequently used in 15th and 16th c. Ottoman
        cuisine, according to surviving menus and food purchase records. The
        mid-15th century translator of al-Baghdadi's cookbook, who also added
        around 80 of his own recipes to the manuscript, was from the city of
        Shirvan in what is now Azerbaijan. And those little yellow plums are
        used in a number of his recipes, leading me to think they were used
        in Persian and Azerbaijani dishes, too.

        Shirvani also altered a number of al-Baghdadi's recipes to suit the
        palace taste, so serving the 13th c. recipes as originally written
        may well not be how they were cooked in the kitchens of the Sultans.

        Hmmm, i wonder if they are similar to Japanses ume, which are rather
        tiny plums. Im only familiar with the preserved salted kind, which
        are, well, salty, but also quite sour.

        Anyway, i am digressing from medieval German, so i will stop now.
        --
        Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
        the persona formerly known as Anahita
      • wheezul@canby.com
        ... In terms of meaning that it is a dish the word s nuance is that it is the arrangement (and not the food itself per se) and it also related to the word
        Message 3 of 30 , Mar 9 10:27 AM
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          > I disagree with your interpretation of gericht.  Yes, Gericht is court of
          > law, and gericht is associated with right/correctness, BUT in this case
          > 'ein gericht' is 'a dish' as in prepared food.  I do not think the
          > definition has changed from then to modern.

          In terms of meaning that it is 'a dish' the word's nuance is that it is
          the "arrangement" (and not the food itself per se) and it also related to
          the word 'right' or correctness. I could see why you might want to choose
          that term. Conceptually though, there is still a somewhat similar nuance
          of meaning. There are 29 definitions of the noun gericht. Most of them
          relate to the concept of right as either correctness of form or legal
          right. I do not find the idea of gericht as a dish incongruent with the
          meaning I think the sentence fragment holds (i.e. is it a good
          arrangement, correct, done?)
          >
          > As for who the ihnen refers to I would lean toward a particular people. 
          > not having seen how this fits in context I hesitate to guess, but if it is
          > part of a travel report then perhaps the ihnen are his hosts????

          It's really hard to say without reading other recipes or the entire text,
          but normally I find that hyperbole is at the beginning or the end of a
          recipe and not in the middle of the instructions. That the author
          announces it is a good lordly dish before telling you the degree of
          doneness of the leaves just doesn't make sense logically (and isn't
          frankly, very Germanic). Weirder things have been written, but I think I
          make a case for my translation. There is a problem with taking something
          out of context so more information might be gleaned from the surrounding
          paragraphs.

          Katherine
        • Johnna Holloway
          But of course he wasn t a cook and he was born in Bohemia. He was a pensioned chief clerk and mining engineer to the Fugger (the German mercantile and banking
          Message 4 of 30 , Mar 9 10:48 AM
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            But of course he wasn't a cook and he was born in Bohemia.
            He was a pensioned chief clerk and mining engineer to the Fugger (the
            German mercantile and banking dynasty).

            He described foods; he didn't cook them.

            Johnnae

            On Mar 9, 2010, at 1:27 PM, wheezul@... wrote:

            > > I disagree with your interpretation of gericht.� Yes, Gericht is
            > court of
            > > law, and gericht is associated with right/correctness, BUT in this
            > case
            > > 'ein gericht' is 'a dish' as in prepared food.� I do not think the
            > > definition has changed from then to modern.
            >
            > In terms of meaning that it is 'a dish' the word's nuance is that it
            > is
            > the "arrangement" (and not the food itself per se) and it also
            > related to
            > the word 'right' or correctness. I could see why you might want to
            > choose
            > that term. Conceptually though, there is still a somewhat similar
            > nuance
            > of meaning. There are 29 definitions of the noun gericht. Most of them
            > relate to the concept of right as either correctness of form or legal
            > right. I do not find the idea of gericht as a dish incongruent with
            > the
            > meaning I think the sentence fragment holds (i.e. is it a good
            > arrangement, correct, done?)
            > >
            > > As for who the ihnen refers to I would lean toward a particular
            > people.�
            > > not having seen how this fits in context I hesitate to guess, but
            > if it is
            > > part of a travel report then perhaps the ihnen are his hosts????
            >
            > It's really hard to say without reading other recipes or the entire
            > text,
            > but normally I find that hyperbole is at the beginning or the end of a
            > recipe and not in the middle of the instructions. That the author
            > announces it is a good lordly dish before telling you the degree of
            > doneness of the leaves just doesn't make sense logically (and isn't
            > frankly, very Germanic). Weirder things have been written, but I
            > think I
            > make a case for my translation. There is a problem with taking
            > something
            > out of context so more information might be gleaned from the
            > surrounding
            > paragraphs.
            >
            > Katherine
            >
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • wheezul@canby.com
            Not very engineer like either ;) I d be interested in reading the preceeding paragraph. Katherine
            Message 5 of 30 , Mar 9 11:28 AM
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              Not very engineer like either ;) I'd be interested in reading the
              preceeding paragraph.

              Katherine

              > But of course he wasn't a cook and he was born in Bohemia.
              > He was a pensioned chief clerk and mining engineer to the Fugger (the
              > German mercantile and banking dynasty).
              >
              > He described foods; he didn't cook them.
              >
              > Johnnae
            • lilinah@earthlink.net
              Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen. Daruntter hagt man auch sawere
              Message 6 of 30 , Mar 9 1:19 PM
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                Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
                voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
                Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
                im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.

                Katherine wrote:
                >This sentence seems to be a sticking point.
                >
                >das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                >sein

                Yup... and the rest of it, too:
                das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail

                >Let's analyze each word for nuance because as translators, especially ones
                >not fluent in the language from birth, tend to go with what matches our
                >perception and we don't understand the breadth of a word. Especially
                >since we are talking older forms.

                Snipping the word by word analysis...

                There is another set of nuances, to which you alluded but which you
                elided... the nuances of foody language.

                Now Dernschwam was a relatively sophisticated man and may have
                grasped some of those nuances, at least as regards European food. But
                he was no cook, and some of his descriptions show his prejudice
                against Ottoman food.
                --
                Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                the persona formerly known as Anahita
              • lilinah@earthlink.net
                The excerpt in which Dernschwam talks about food and various dishes is on Thomas Gloning s site: http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/dernfood.htm I have also
                Message 7 of 30 , Mar 9 1:20 PM
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                  The excerpt in which Dernschwam talks about food and various dishes
                  is on Thomas Gloning's site:
                  http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/dernfood.htm

                  I have also copied it and saved it in Rich Text Format (rtf) and put
                  it in the Files section of this list on Yahoo.

                  It begins on page 123 of his Tagebuch as published in 1923, and goes
                  through 129, with an edit on p. 130 and continuing with part of p. 131

                  Bear in mind that the text includes his transcriptions of some
                  Ottoman words, the names of specific food preparations, such as
                  czorba, which is Turkish for soup, now written as chorba.
                  --
                  Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                  the persona formerly known as Anahita
                • Cat .
                  Thank you, in skimming the text in the link that word was eluding me.  In this context does Printzsch mean Princely or is this another Turkish word
                  Message 8 of 30 , Mar 9 1:31 PM
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                    Thank you, in skimming the text in the link that word was eluding me.  In this context does Printzsch mean Princely or is this another Turkish word translation I am missing?

                    The rest of the text reads fairly well, though I can definetely hear the 'Bohemian' accent in his writing, but knowing that makes figuring out some of the words easier.

                    Thanks for the new reading matter.
                    Gwen Cat




                    ________________________________
                    From: "lilinah@..." <lilinah@...>
                    To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 2:20:05 PM
                    Subject: [cooking_rumpolt] Dernschwam text, was OT: 16th c. German, not Rumpolt

                     
                    The excerpt in which Dernschwam talks about food and various dishes
                    is on Thomas Gloning's site:
                    http://www.uni- giessen.de/ gloning/tx/ dernfood. htm

                    I have also copied it and saved it in Rich Text Format (rtf) and put
                    it in the Files section of this list on Yahoo.

                    It begins on page 123 of his Tagebuch as published in 1923, and goes
                    through 129, with an edit on p. 130 and continuing with part of p. 131

                    Bear in mind that the text includes his transcriptions of some
                    Ottoman words, the names of specific food preparations, such as
                    czorba, which is Turkish for soup, now written as chorba.
                    --
                    Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                    the persona formerly known as Anahita






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Cat .
                    to perhaps clarify dish versus arrangement let me quote this paragraph from the same text:: Die turkhen essen vnd siczen alle auff der erden vnd, darnachs
                    Message 9 of 30 , Mar 9 1:45 PM
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                      to perhaps clarify 'dish' versus 'arrangement' let me quote this paragraph from the same text::

                      Die turkhen essen vnd siczen alle auff der erden vnd, darnachs
                      jeder vermag, auff die erden ein dakhen ader tebich vndergepraith,
                      siczen sy zw rings herumb, haben khain tisch. Wer es
                      vermag, der brait ein sophra auff, das ist ein rund leder,
                      darauff seczt er ein braitte hulczene ader kupffrene, verzintte,
                      flache schussel, dorein seczt man ein gericht ader 2 ader 3,
                      darczw broth vnd loffell; nent man syney. Khain thischtuch
                      praucht man nicht, sunder wan mans herlich will haltten, zw
                      rundt vmb ein lang handtuch; das nent man peschkor.

                      specifically the sentence: "Wer es vermag, der brait ein sophra auff, das ist ein rund leder, darauff seczt er ein braitte hulczene ader kupffrene, verzintte,
                      flache schussel, dorein seczt man ein gericht ader 2 ader 3,darczw broth vnd loffell; nent man syney. "

                      "Who so wishes, spreads out a sophra, that is a round leather, thereon he sets a wide woodern or copper, tinned flat bowl, therein one sets one dish or 2 or 3, thereto bread and spoon, one calls (this) syney."

                      The rest of the sentence mentions they sit on the ground (or on cloths or small rugs) and have no table, do not need a table cloth and if they want it to be 'fancy' (or lordly) they use a long towled (hand cloth) that is called a peschkor.

                      In service and curiosity
                      Gwen Cat



                       



                      ________________________________
                      From: "wheezul@..." <wheezul@...>
                      To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 11:27:36 AM
                      Subject: Re: [cooking_rumpolt] OT: 16th c. German, not Rumpolt

                       
                      > I disagree with your interpretation of gericht.  Yes, Gericht is court of
                      > law, and gericht is associated with right/correctness, BUT in this case
                      > 'ein gericht' is 'a dish' as in prepared food.  I do not think the
                      > definition has changed from then to modern.

                      In terms of meaning that it is 'a dish' the word's nuance is that it is
                      the "arrangement" (and not the food itself per se) and it also related to
                      the word 'right' or correctness. I could see why you might want to choose
                      that term. Conceptually though, there is still a somewhat similar nuance
                      of meaning. There are 29 definitions of the noun gericht. Most of them
                      relate to the concept of right as either correctness of form or legal
                      right. I do not find the idea of gericht as a dish incongruent with the
                      meaning I think the sentence fragment holds (i.e. is it a good
                      arrangement, correct, done?)
                      >
                      > As for who the ihnen refers to I would lean toward a particular people. 
                      > not having seen how this fits in context I hesitate to guess, but if it is
                      > part of a travel report then perhaps the ihnen are his hosts????

                      It's really hard to say without reading other recipes or the entire text,
                      but normally I find that hyperbole is at the beginning or the end of a
                      recipe and not in the middle of the instructions. That the author
                      announces it is a good lordly dish before telling you the degree of
                      doneness of the leaves just doesn't make sense logically (and isn't
                      frankly, very Germanic). Weirder things have been written, but I think I
                      make a case for my translation. There is a problem with taking something
                      out of context so more information might be gleaned from the surrounding
                      paragraphs.

                      Katherine







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • lilinah@earthlink.net
                      ... It is Ottoman for rice, from a Farsi word. One famous dish, birinc (now written pirinc-cedilla) herisesi, is a dish of rice cooked first in chicken broth,
                      Message 10 of 30 , Mar 9 2:14 PM
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                        Gwen Cat wrote:
                        >Thank you, in skimming the text in the link that word was eluding
                        >me. In this context does Printzsch mean Princely or is this another
                        >Turkish word translation I am missing?

                        It is Ottoman for rice, from a Farsi word.

                        One famous dish, birinc (now written pirinc-cedilla) herisesi, is a
                        dish of rice cooked first in chicken broth, then with milk, until it
                        is porridge, then season with salt and sugar to taste. Next stir in
                        shredded cooked chicken breast and place in a serving dish. Top with
                        clarified butter, sprinkle with rosewater, dust with powdered sugar,
                        and eat.
                        --
                        Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                        the persona formerly known as Anahita
                      • Cat .
                        DOH!  Printzsch haist reys! which I was taking to mean the start of the recipe (rice cooked in a sheep meat soup....) instead of the straight translation
                        Message 11 of 30 , Mar 9 2:21 PM
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                          DOH!  Printzsch haist reys!
                          which I was taking to mean the start of the recipe (rice cooked in a sheep meat soup....) instead of the straight translation Printzsch means rice - DOH!

                          Thanks again.
                          Gwen time to stop, brain full for today ;-) Cat




                          ________________________________
                          From: "lilinah@..." <lilinah@...>
                          To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 3:14:20 PM
                          Subject: Re: [cooking_rumpolt] Dernschwam text, was OT: 16th c. German, not Rumpolt

                           
                          Gwen Cat wrote:
                          >Thank you, in skimming the text in the link that word was eluding
                          >me. In this context does Printzsch mean Princely or is this another
                          >Turkish word translation I am missing?

                          It is Ottoman for rice, from a Farsi word.

                          One famous dish, birinc (now written pirinc-cedilla) herisesi, is a
                          dish of rice cooked first in chicken broth, then with milk, until it
                          is porridge, then season with salt and sugar to taste. Next stir in
                          shredded cooked chicken breast and place in a serving dish. Top with
                          clarified butter, sprinkle with rosewater, dust with powdered sugar,
                          and eat.
                          --
                          Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                          the persona formerly known as Anahita






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • lilinah@earthlink.net
                          ... BTW, this is a simplified paraphrase of an actual mid-15th c. Ottoman recipe. I didn t want to bore everyone with the whole recipe. -- Urtatim [that s
                          Message 12 of 30 , Mar 9 2:24 PM
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                            I wrote:
                            >One famous dish, birinc (now written pirinc-cedilla) herisesi, is a
                            >dish of rice cooked first in chicken broth, then with milk, until it
                            >is porridge, then season with salt and sugar to taste. Next stir in
                            >shredded cooked chicken breast and place in a serving dish. Top with
                            >clarified butter, sprinkle with rosewater, dust with powdered sugar,
                            >and eat.

                            BTW, this is a simplified paraphrase of an actual mid-15th c. Ottoman
                            recipe. I didn't want to bore everyone with the whole recipe.

                            --
                            Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                            the persona formerly known as Anahita
                          • wheezul@canby.com
                            ... Thank you for pointing me to the right place to look. Very interesting - I lived in Turkey for 2 years :) The paragraph before uses the word to mean more
                            Message 13 of 30 , Mar 9 2:57 PM
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                              >
                              > There is another set of nuances, to which you alluded but which you
                              > elided... the nuances of foody language.
                              >
                              > Now Dernschwam was a relatively sophisticated man and may have
                              > grasped some of those nuances, at least as regards European food. But
                              > he was no cook, and some of his descriptions show his prejudice
                              > against Ottoman food.
                              > --
                              > Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                              > the persona formerly known as Anahita

                              Thank you for pointing me to the right place to look. Very interesting -
                              I lived in Turkey for 2 years :)

                              The paragraph before uses the word to mean more of a preparation/stage of
                              the dish to have yogurt added to it.

                              The paragraph after starts with the commentary 'Mer sol bey inen auch fwr
                              ein kostlich gericht gehaltten' which seems to tie to the paragraph
                              before. And then further in the paragraph gericht is used for
                              dish/preparation.

                              Based on the 'mer sol bey inen' in the following paragraph, I'd go with
                              the translation of by them it is a good, dish. It is odd in placement
                              based on the other commentaries. Perhaps the fail could be viel (much) -
                              so that the sense of the last sentence matches?

                              Katherine
                            • Sharon Palmer
                              ... Rumpolt has recipes for Hungarian plums, which I believe are the small sour, yellow plums. Ranvaig
                              Message 14 of 30 , Mar 9 8:11 PM
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                                >I don't know if sour yellow plums are called for in any European
                                >cuisines,

                                Rumpolt has recipes for Hungarian plums, which I believe are the
                                small sour, yellow plums.

                                Ranvaig
                              • Sharon Palmer
                                ... Perhaps I should have annotated my translation more. I took it to mean that they .. the Turks considered it a lordly (or perhaps pretty) dish *because*
                                Message 15 of 30 , Mar 9 10:28 PM
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                                  >that should be for them also a good lordly dish and has thereto the
                                  >vine leaves always
                                  >over the filling.

                                  Perhaps I should have annotated my translation more. I took it to
                                  mean that "they".. the Turks considered it a lordly (or perhaps
                                  pretty) dish *because* the meat was wrapped in the grape leaves. And
                                  I would agree that this statement is not about doneness.

                                  And I see I missed much good discussion. I'm not sure if it helps or
                                  confuses the issue to say that the Early New High German to English
                                  dictionary says that "richte" is a course in a meal. These
                                  definitions are taken from Dasypodius, a 1536 German to Latin
                                  dictionary.

                                  http://www.germanstudies.org.uk/enhg_dic/enhg_dicr.htm


                                  Ranvaig
                                • xina007eu
                                  ... Hi all, I think the fail in hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail is the same as feil in e.g. the old-fashioned terms feilbieten - to offer for
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Mar 12 10:20 AM
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                                    --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, lilinah@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I hope it is not inappropriate to post this here. It's 16th c. German
                                    > and about food, but not from Rumpolt...
                                    >
                                    > I'm teaching a class on 15th and 16th c. Ottoman cooking very soon.
                                    > Stuffed vine leaves do not show up in Ottoman cookbooks until the
                                    > 18th or 19th century. However, Hans Dernschwam mentions them in his
                                    > account of his visit to Kostantaniye (Ottoman for Constantinople) in
                                    > the late 16th c.
                                    >
                                    > Here is his description from Thomas Gloning's site
                                    > http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/dernfood.htm
                                    >
                                    > Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
                                    > voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
                                    > Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
                                    > im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                                    > sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.
                                    >
                                    > I've got it *very roughly* translated, up the last two lines, where i
                                    >

                                    Hi all,

                                    I think the "fail" in "hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail"
                                    is the same as "feil" in e.g. the old-fashioned terms "feilbieten"- to offer for sale, "wohlfeil sein" - to be available at a low price.

                                    So my guess is that "hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail"
                                    means something like "in addition, vine leaves are available everywhere". "Es hat" is South German dialect for standard German "es gibt".
                                    See the Grimm dictionary entry about "feil":
                                    "1) feil sein: die sache ist feil, nicht feil, zu haben, nicht zu haben"
                                    Wonderful phonetic spelling, by the way, also in the other quotation :-)

                                    Best regards,

                                    Christina
                                  • Cat .
                                    Hi Christina thanks for posting.  This rings true to me.  I was thinking of because vine leaves fall (thinking we have the vines. so lets use the leaves...)
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Mar 12 11:54 AM
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                                      Hi Christina

                                      thanks for posting.  This rings true to me.  I was thinking of because vine leaves fall (thinking we have the vines. so lets use the leaves...)  and your answer  makes sense both in that context and in the use of the words.

                                      THANKS
                                      Gwen Cat




                                      ________________________________
                                      From: xina007eu <Christina_Lemke@...>
                                      To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 11:20:01 AM
                                      Subject: [cooking_rumpolt] Re: OT: 16th c. German, not Rumpolt

                                       


                                      --- In cooking_rumpolt@ yahoogroups. com, lilinah@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I hope it is not inappropriate to post this here. It's 16th c. German
                                      > and about food, but not from Rumpolt...
                                      >
                                      > I'm teaching a class on 15th and 16th c. Ottoman cooking very soon.
                                      > Stuffed vine leaves do not show up in Ottoman cookbooks until the
                                      > 18th or 19th century. However, Hans Dernschwam mentions them in his
                                      > account of his visit to Kostantaniye (Ottoman for Constantinople) in
                                      > the late 16th c.
                                      >
                                      > Here is his description from Thomas Gloning's site
                                      > http://www.uni- giessen.de/ gloning/tx/ dernfood. htm
                                      >
                                      > Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
                                      > voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
                                      > Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
                                      > im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                                      > sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.
                                      >
                                      > I've got it *very roughly* translated, up the last two lines, where i
                                      >

                                      Hi all,

                                      I think the "fail" in "hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail"
                                      is the same as "feil" in e.g. the old-fashioned terms "feilbieten" - to offer for sale, "wohlfeil sein" - to be available at a low price.

                                      So my guess is that "hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail"
                                      means something like "in addition, vine leaves are available everywhere". "Es hat" is South German dialect for standard German "es gibt".
                                      See the Grimm dictionary entry about "feil":
                                      "1) feil sein: die sache ist feil, nicht feil, zu haben, nicht zu haben"
                                      Wonderful phonetic spelling, by the way, also in the other quotation :-)

                                      Best regards,

                                      Christina







                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • xina007eu
                                      ... Hi Gwen Cat, I agree with you. The inen are the Turks. He is saying that this is supposed to be (sol) ein good marvelous dish (ein guth, herlich gericht)
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Mar 17 10:24 AM
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                                        --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, "Cat ." <tgrcat2001@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Thank you for repeating the link.  I am skimming things as I am at work.  and having skimmed over the link I would suggest the ihnen is the Turks (turkish peoples) since the entire article is about the food they eat (and his opening statement seems he is underwhelmed: the turks eat poor wretched (miserable) foods/dishes that one shudders (to think about eating them)...
                                        >
                                        > In Service
                                        > Gwen Cat
                                        >
                                        >

                                        Hi Gwen Cat,
                                        I agree with you. The "inen" are the Turks. He is saying that this is supposed to be (sol) ein good marvelous dish (ein guth, herlich gericht) for or among them (bey inen). Throughout the text "sy" (sie=they), "ire" (ihre=their), "inen" (ihnen = them) refers to the Turks.
                                        He also mentions that they eat a lot of grapes which would mean that vine leaves would indeed be widely available:
                                        "Vmb Constantinapol weit vnd prait fressen sy die weinper im herbst auff." (In a large area around Constantinople they eat up the grapes in autumn). Wow, that is really rude, "fressen" is used for animals, not people! However, I guess if a Turkish traveller had gone to Germany during that time, his comments would also have been quite rude - political correctness hadn't been invented yet.

                                        Best regards,

                                        Christina
                                      • Carowyn Silveroak
                                        Greetings! ... In Pennsylvania Dutch, it means to gobble , like we d say someone s snarfing their food faster than they really need to. So it can refer to
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Mar 18 1:34 PM
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                                          Greetings!

                                          >Wow, that is really rude, "fressen" is used for animals,
                                          > not people!

                                          In Pennsylvania Dutch, it means "to gobble", like we'd say someone's
                                          snarfing their food faster than they really need to. So it can refer to
                                          either people or animals......

                                          But I've heard it's *really* a rude word in Yiddish!!

                                          -Carowyn, who was known as a "fresser" when a child in a Penna Dutch
                                          community, but *not* in Yiddish! ;-)
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