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OT: 16th c. German, not Rumpolt

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  • lilinah@earthlink.net
    I hope it is not inappropriate to post this here. It s 16th c. German and about food, but not from Rumpolt... I m teaching a class on 15th and 16th c. Ottoman
    Message 1 of 30 , Mar 8, 2010
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      I hope it is not inappropriate to post this here. It's 16th c. German
      and about food, but not from Rumpolt...

      I'm teaching a class on 15th and 16th c. Ottoman cooking very soon.
      Stuffed vine leaves do not show up in Ottoman cookbooks until the
      18th or 19th century. However, Hans Dernschwam mentions them in his
      account of his visit to Kostantaniye (Ottoman for Constantinople) in
      the late 16th c.

      Here is his description from Thomas Gloning's site
      http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/dernfood.htm

      Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
      voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
      Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
      im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
      sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.

      I've got it *very roughly* translated, up the last two lines, where i
      get stuck:

      Item, sheep meat, finely chopped, of that one spoon
      full on a vine leaf, one wraps together like a krapfen.
      Also include chopped sour plums, and boil it alone
      in water,
      (here's where i fall down)
      (sol bey) them also a good, marvelous dish/meal
      are and hot thereto the vine leaves over all (fail)

      This is the only list i'm one where most people are interested in
      Medieval German cooking, and familiar with cooking terms of the
      period.

      My thanks for any assistance.

      I'd really love to get all of Dernschwam's comments about food in
      Istanbul, Hungary, etc. translated. I've got some of them done, but
      not all. It's not terribly long, but my medieval German is sketchy.
      --
      Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
      the persona formerly known as Anahita
    • Cat .
      Sol by ihnen..  should by them also be a good fancy (marvalous) dish be and has thereby the vine leaves that fall all over. (also rough), Gwen Cat
      Message 2 of 30 , Mar 8, 2010
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        Sol by ihnen..  should by them also be a good fancy (marvalous) dish be and has thereby the vine leaves that fall all over.
        (also rough), Gwen Cat





        ________________________________
        From: "lilinah@..." <lilinah@...>
        To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, March 8, 2010 12:29:39 PM
        Subject: [cooking_rumpolt] OT: 16th c. German, not Rumpolt

         
        I hope it is not inappropriate to post this here. It's 16th c. German
        and about food, but not from Rumpolt...

        I'm teaching a class on 15th and 16th c. Ottoman cooking very soon.
        Stuffed vine leaves do not show up in Ottoman cookbooks until the
        18th or 19th century. However, Hans Dernschwam mentions them in his
        account of his visit to Kostantaniye (Ottoman for Constantinople) in
        the late 16th c.

        Here is his description from Thomas Gloning's site
        http://www.uni- giessen.de/ gloning/tx/ dernfood. htm

        Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
        voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
        Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
        im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
        sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.

        I've got it *very roughly* translated, up the last two lines, where i
        get stuck:

        Item, sheep meat, finely chopped, of that one spoon
        full on a vine leaf, one wraps together like a krapfen.
        Also include chopped sour plums, and boil it alone
        in water,
        (here's where i fall down)
        (sol bey) them also a good, marvelous dish/meal
        are and hot thereto the vine leaves over all (fail)
         

        This is the only list i'm one where most people are interested in
        Medieval German cooking, and familiar with cooking terms of the
        period.

        My thanks for any assistance.

        I'd really love to get all of Dernschwam's comments about food in
        Istanbul, Hungary, etc. translated. I've got some of them done, but
        not all. It's not terribly long, but my medieval German is sketchy.
        --
        Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
        the persona formerly known as Anahita






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • wheezul@canby.com
        ... Item, sheep s flesh, hacked small, one takes a spoon full on a wine leaf, folds together like a fritter thereunder one has also sour plums, one boils them
        Message 3 of 30 , Mar 8, 2010
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          >
          > Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
          > voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
          > Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
          > im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
          > sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.


          Item, sheep's flesh, hacked small, one takes a spoon
          full on a wine leaf, folds together like a fritter
          thereunder one has also sour plums, one boils them alone
          in water, that (i.e. until) they are each of a good pleasing state (i.e.
          they look good)
          and the wine leave have (hot=hat) overall breaking down (where fail =
          fehlen - in the sense of disintegrate or in other words the leaves start
          to fall apart and are soft enough to eat?)

          A wecklein is a rectangular shaped roll of bread. A krapffen is a
          fritter, usually filled with something.

          There's my down and dirty quick translation.

          Katherine B

          >
          > I've got it *very roughly* translated, up the last two lines, where i
          > get stuck:
          >
          > Item, sheep meat, finely chopped, of that one spoon
          > full on a vine leaf, one wraps together like a krapfen.
          > Also include chopped sour plums, and boil it alone
          > in water,
          > (here's where i fall down)
          > (sol bey) them also a good, marvelous dish/meal
          > are and hot thereto the vine leaves over all (fail)
          >  
          >
          > This is the only list i'm one where most people are interested in
          > Medieval German cooking, and familiar with cooking terms of the
          > period.
          >
          > My thanks for any assistance.
          >
          > I'd really love to get all of Dernschwam's comments about food in
          > Istanbul, Hungary, etc. translated. I've got some of them done, but
          > not all. It's not terribly long, but my medieval German is sketchy.
          > --
          > Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
          > the persona formerly known as Anahita
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
        • lilinah@earthlink.net
          ... Still happy if anyone else gives it a shot. I did this because even i could see that the one i saw repeatedly on the web was inaccurate. As i said, i d
          Message 4 of 30 , Mar 8, 2010
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            My thanks to those who have taken a look at:
            > Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
            > voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
            > Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
            > im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
            > sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.

            Still happy if anyone else gives it a shot. I did this because even i
            could see that the one i saw repeatedly on the web was inaccurate.

            As i said, i'd really love to get all of Dernschwam's comments about
            food in Istanbul, Hungary, etc. translated. I've been working on them
            on occasion, but my medieval German is as sketchy as my modern German.

            Would it be acceptable to post some here from time to time when this
            list is quiet? If it is ok, i won't be posting anything soon, April
            at the very earliest, and most likely later.

            I realize this is outside the scope of the purpose of this list, and
            will understand if it is not OK.

            --
            Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
            the persona formerly known as Anahita
          • Sharon Palmer
            ... Where did you find it on the web? ... Any translation is better than no translation, that s what got me started. ... Any posting about medieval German food
            Message 5 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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              >Still happy if anyone else gives it a shot. I did this because even i
              >could see that the one i saw repeatedly on the web was inaccurate.

              Where did you find it on the web?

              >As i said, i'd really love to get all of Dernschwam's comments about
              >food in Istanbul, Hungary, etc. translated. I've been working on them
              >on occasion, but my medieval German is as sketchy as my modern German.

              Any translation is better than no translation, that's what got me started.
              >
              >Would it be acceptable to post some here from time to time when this
              >list is quiet?

              Any posting about medieval German food is on topic here. I started
              the group for my Rumpolt translation, but it isn't limited to that.
              Anything you post would be very welcome.

              I believe this recipe is included in Mistress Hauviette (Channon
              Mondoux) Celebration at the Sarayi. It was one I test cooked, but my
              notes are on a dead computer. http:www.rencuisine.com

              >Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
              >voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
              >Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
              >im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
              >sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.

              thut is tut - do or put, I think "fail" might be "full" or filling.
              I'd translate it as:

              Item, sheep meat, chopped small, that one puts a spoonful on a grape
              leaf, one winds (or wraps) it together like a dumpling, among it one
              also has sour plums, one boils off only in water, that should be for
              them also a good lordly dish and has thereto the vine leaves always
              over the filling.

              >Item, sheep meat, finely chopped, of that one spoon
              >full on a vine leaf, one wraps together like a krapfen.
              >Also include chopped sour plums, and boil it alone
              >in water,
              >(here's where i fall down)
              >(sol bey) them also a good, marvelous dish/meal
              >are and hot thereto the vine leaves over all (fail)

              At 12:40 PM -0800 3/8/10, wheezul@... wrote:
              >A krapffen is a fritter, usually filled with somethig.

              Krapffen are a filling wrapped in dough like a pierogi or ravioli. I
              haven't seen any unfilled ones.

              Ranvaig
            • lilinah@earthlink.net
              ... For example: http://www.tecpublishing.com/Assets/Sarayi_42.pdf http://www.cookingwithsheilah.com/cws_review_Sarayi.html
              Message 6 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                Ranvaig wrote:
                > >Still happy if anyone else gives it a shot. I did this because even i
                >>could see that the one i saw repeatedly on the web was inaccurate.
                >
                >Where did you find it on the web?

                For example:
                http://www.tecpublishing.com/Assets/Sarayi_42.pdf

                http://www.cookingwithsheilah.com/cws_review_Sarayi.html

                http://tastesofmaviboncuk.blogspot.com/2008/03/hans-derschwam-stuffed-grape-leaves.html

                Other examples can be located because in Channon's translation,
                Dernschwam is spelled without the "n", and hers is the only place
                i've seen his name without the "n".

                In her text Dernschwam is described as a young man in Istanbul,
                except that he was born in Bohemia in 1494 (and died in 1568), so
                when he was in Istanbul from 1553 to 1555, he was 59 to 61.

                >Any translation is better than no translation, that's what got me started.

                :)

                >Any posting about medieval German food is on topic here. I started
                >the group for my Rumpolt translation, but it isn't limited to that.
                >Anything you post would be very welcome.

                Thanks.

                >I believe this recipe is included in Mistress Hauviette (Channon
                >Mondoux) Celebration at the Sarayi. It was one I test cooked, but my
                >notes are on a dead computer. http:www.rencuisine.com

                Her version of the recipe is incompletely translated, perhaps because
                the person who did it for her had trouble with those last two lines,
                too. Hers ends, "Serve hot", except in the original "hat" does not
                mean "hot".

                > >Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
                >>voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
                >>Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
                >>im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                >>sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.
                >
                >thut is tut - do or put, I think "fail" might be "full" or filling.
                >I'd translate it as:
                >
                >Item, sheep meat, chopped small, that one puts a spoonful on a grape
                >leaf, one winds (or wraps) it together like a dumpling, among it one
                >also has sour plums, one boils off only in water, that should be for
                >them also a good lordly dish and has thereto the vine leaves always
                >over the filling.

                That is kind of what i thought vaguely, something about vine leaves
                over the dish. Thanks for the clarification.

                >At 12:40 PM -0800 3/8/10, wheezul@... wrote:
                >>A krapffen is a fritter, usually filled with somethig.
                >
                >Krapffen are a filling wrapped in dough like a pierogi or ravioli. I
                >haven't seen any unfilled ones.

                Agreed, all the krapfen recipes i've seen have fillings.

                Again, thanks to all for the help. I will be able to poke my nose
                further into Dernschwam in April. It's good to know i won't be
                flailing helplessly, especially since my knowledge of German is so
                rudimentary.
                --
                Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                the persona formerly known as Anahita
              • wheezul@canby.com
                ... This sentence seems to be a sticking point. das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht ... Let s analyze each word for nuance because as translators,
                Message 7 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                  >>Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
                  >>voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
                  >>Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
                  >>im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                  >>sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.
                  >

                  This sentence seems to be a sticking point.

                  das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                  >>sein

                  Let's analyze each word for nuance because as translators, especially ones
                  not fluent in the language from birth, tend to go with what matches our
                  perception and we don't understand the breadth of a word. Especially
                  since we are talking older forms.

                  das = that
                  sol = sollen = should (in the sense of obligation)
                  bey = bei = by (in the sense of near perhaps)
                  inen = ihnen = here we need to determine what this pronoun is referring?
                  In some cases it can mean 'you' but the earlier form in the recipe uses
                  'man' which is more the equivalent of using 'one'. It also is the word
                  for 'them' which I think makes more sense in the context of the
                  instructions as referring to the grape leaf packets.
                  auch = also, as well, in addition, too
                  ein = a or one
                  guth = gut = good (in the sense of quality)
                  herlich = herrlich = Grimm's worterbuch advises there are several meanings
                  to the word, but that in usage up to the 19th century it meant usually
                  lovely or pretty and was used to describe things like dishes and weather
                  or lovely girls, for example, in the medieval period. The word can also
                  mean lordly.
                  gericht = correctness (in terms of law - think of the English word 'right'
                  and 'rights' to get a sense of how to think of the term) "Machs recht" is
                  a very common statement in the cookbook I'm working in that I think means
                  to make as is correct or "until done".
                  sein = to be

                  So let's put the concepts into English word order

                  In addition that them (they) should be near a good lovely correctness

                  which when I try to wrap my head around it may mean "until they look
                  correctly well done".

                  Katherine
                • Cat .
                  I disagree with your interpretation of gericht.  Yes, Gericht is court of law, and gericht is associated with right/correctness, BUT in this case ein
                  Message 8 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                    I disagree with your interpretation of gericht.  Yes, Gericht is court of law, and gericht is associated with right/correctness, BUT in this case 'ein gericht' is 'a dish' as in prepared food.  I do not think the definition has changed from then to modern.

                    As for who the ihnen refers to I would lean toward a particular people.  not having seen how this fits in context I hesitate to guess, but if it is part of a travel report then perhaps the ihnen are his hosts????

                    In Service
                    Gwen Cat

                     



                    ________________________________
                    From: "wheezul@..." <wheezul@...>
                    To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 9:43:57 AM
                    Subject: Re: [cooking_rumpolt] OT: 16th c. German, not Rumpolt

                     
                    >>Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
                    >>voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
                    >>Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
                    >>im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                    >>sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.
                    >

                    This sentence seems to be a sticking point.

                    das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                    >>sein

                    Let's analyze each word for nuance because as translators, especially ones
                    not fluent in the language from birth, tend to go with what matches our
                    perception and we don't understand the breadth of a word. Especially
                    since we are talking older forms.

                    das = that
                    sol = sollen = should (in the sense of obligation)
                    bey = bei = by (in the sense of near perhaps)
                    inen = ihnen = here we need to determine what this pronoun is referring?
                    In some cases it can mean 'you' but the earlier form in the recipe uses
                    'man' which is more the equivalent of using 'one'. It also is the word
                    for 'them' which I think makes more sense in the context of the
                    instructions as referring to the grape leaf packets.
                    auch = also, as well, in addition, too
                    ein = a or one
                    guth = gut = good (in the sense of quality)
                    herlich = herrlich = Grimm's worterbuch advises there are several meanings
                    to the word, but that in usage up to the 19th century it meant usually
                    lovely or pretty and was used to describe things like dishes and weather
                    or lovely girls, for example, in the medieval period. The word can also
                    mean lordly.
                    gericht = correctness (in terms of law - think of the English word 'right'
                    and 'rights' to get a sense of how to think of the term) "Machs recht" is
                    a very common statement in the cookbook I'm working in that I think means
                    to make as is correct or "until done".
                    sein = to be

                    So let's put the concepts into English word order

                    In addition that them (they) should be near a good lovely correctness

                    which when I try to wrap my head around it may mean "until they look
                    correctly well done".

                    Katherine







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • tgrcat2001
                    tried to send via yahoo mail but it seems to be eating outgoing mesages again... grrr I disagree with your interpretation of gericht. Yes, Gericht is court of
                    Message 9 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                      tried to send via yahoo mail but it seems to be eating outgoing mesages again... grrr

                      I disagree with your interpretation of gericht. Yes, Gericht is court of law, and gericht is associated with right/correctness, BUT in this case 'ein gericht' is 'a dish' as in prepared food. I do not think the definition has changed from then to modern.

                      As for who the ihnen refers to I would lean toward a particular people rather than the inanimate leaf rolls. Not having seen how this fits in context I hesitate to guess, but if it is part of a travel report then perhaps the ihnen are his hosts????

                      In Service
                      Gwen Cat

                      --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, wheezul@... wrote:
                      >
                      > >>Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
                      > >>voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
                      > >>Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
                      > >>im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                      > >>sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.
                      > >
                      >
                      > This sentence seems to be a sticking point.
                      >
                      > das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                      > >>sein
                      >
                      > Let's analyze each word for nuance because as translators, especially ones
                      > not fluent in the language from birth, tend to go with what matches our
                      > perception and we don't understand the breadth of a word. Especially
                      > since we are talking older forms.
                      >
                      > das = that
                      > sol = sollen = should (in the sense of obligation)
                      > bey = bei = by (in the sense of near perhaps)
                      > inen = ihnen = here we need to determine what this pronoun is referring?
                      > In some cases it can mean 'you' but the earlier form in the recipe uses
                      > 'man' which is more the equivalent of using 'one'. It also is the word
                      > for 'them' which I think makes more sense in the context of the
                      > instructions as referring to the grape leaf packets.
                      > auch = also, as well, in addition, too
                      > ein = a or one
                      > guth = gut = good (in the sense of quality)
                      > herlich = herrlich = Grimm's worterbuch advises there are several meanings
                      > to the word, but that in usage up to the 19th century it meant usually
                      > lovely or pretty and was used to describe things like dishes and weather
                      > or lovely girls, for example, in the medieval period. The word can also
                      > mean lordly.
                      > gericht = correctness (in terms of law - think of the English word 'right'
                      > and 'rights' to get a sense of how to think of the term) "Machs recht" is
                      > a very common statement in the cookbook I'm working in that I think means
                      > to make as is correct or "until done".
                      > sein = to be
                      >
                      > So let's put the concepts into English word order
                      >
                      > In addition that them (they) should be near a good lovely correctness
                      >
                      > which when I try to wrap my head around it may mean "until they look
                      > correctly well done".
                      >
                      > Katherine
                      >
                    • lilinah@earthlink.net
                      ... It is from a long section where Dernschwam talks about food and various dishes. I gave the link to the text in my first message on Thomas Gloning s site:
                      Message 10 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                        Gwen Cat wrote:
                        >I disagree with your interpretation of gericht. Yes, Gericht is
                        >court of law, and gericht is associated with right/correctness, BUT
                        >in this case 'ein gericht' is 'a dish' as in prepared food. I do
                        >not think the definition has changed from then to modern.
                        >
                        >As for who the ihnen refers to I would lean toward a particular
                        >people. not having seen how this fits in context I hesitate to
                        >guess, but if it is part of a travel report then perhaps the ihnen
                        >are his hosts????

                        It is from a long section where Dernschwam talks about food and various dishes.

                        I gave the link to the text in my first message on Thomas Gloning's site:
                        http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/dernfood.htm
                        --
                        Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                        the persona formerly known as Anahita
                      • Cat .
                        Thank you for repeating the link.  I am skimming things as I am at work.  and having skimmed over the link I would suggest the ihnen is the Turks (turkish
                        Message 11 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                          Thank you for repeating the link.  I am skimming things as I am at work.  and having skimmed over the link I would suggest the ihnen is the Turks (turkish peoples) since the entire article is about the food they eat (and his opening statement seems he is underwhelmed: the turks eat poor wretched (miserable) foods/dishes that one shudders (to think about eating them)...

                          In Service
                          Gwen Cat




                          ________________________________
                          From: "lilinah@..." <lilinah@...>
                          To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 10:49:19 AM
                          Subject: Re: [cooking_rumpolt] OT: 16th c. German, not Rumpolt

                           
                          Gwen Cat wrote:
                          >I disagree with your interpretation of gericht. Yes, Gericht is
                          >court of law, and gericht is associated with right/correctness, BUT
                          >in this case 'ein gericht' is 'a dish' as in prepared food. I do
                          >not think the definition has changed from then to modern.
                          >
                          >As for who the ihnen refers to I would lean toward a particular
                          >people. not having seen how this fits in context I hesitate to
                          >guess, but if it is part of a travel report then perhaps the ihnen
                          >are his hosts????

                          It is from a long section where Dernschwam talks about food and various dishes.

                          I gave the link to the text in my first message on Thomas Gloning's site:
                          http://www.uni- giessen.de/ gloning/tx/ dernfood. htm
                          --
                          Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                          the persona formerly known as Anahita






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • lilinah@earthlink.net
                          ... I really love that opening :0) Clearly Dernschwam had his own ideas of what was good food, and what he was seeing in Turkiye did not meet his expectations.
                          Message 12 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                            Gwen Cat wrote:
                            >Thank you for repeating the link. I am skimming things as I am at
                            >work. and having skimmed over the link I would suggest the ihnen is
                            >the Turks (turkish peoples) since the entire article is about the
                            >food they eat (and his opening statement seems he is underwhelmed:
                            >the turks eat poor wretched (miserable) foods/dishes that one
                            >shudders (to think about eating them)...

                            I really love that opening :0)

                            Clearly Dernschwam had his own ideas of what was good food, and what
                            he was seeing in Turkiye did not meet his expectations. I suspect
                            that we can learn a bit about European attitudes to their own
                            cuisines by reading their descriptions of food they come across in
                            foreign countries.

                            Dernschwam has more derogatory comments farther along, too.
                            --
                            Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                            the persona formerly known as Anahita
                          • lilinah@earthlink.net
                            Original recipe: Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen. Daruntter hagt
                            Message 13 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                              Original recipe:
                              Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
                              voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
                              Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
                              im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                              sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.

                              Ranvaig translated it as:
                              >Item, sheep meat, chopped small, that one puts a spoonful on a grape
                              >leaf, one winds (or wraps) it together like a dumpling, among it one
                              >also has sour plums, one boils off only in water, that should be for
                              >them also a good lordly dish and has thereto the vine leaves always
                              >over the filling.

                              BTW, I have found partially moist sour yellow plums, which are quite
                              small, in the refrigerator case of my local Persian market. They are
                              quite tart, and prunes are no substitute because prunes are sweet.
                              I've eaten Tabriz Kofte, a massively huge meatball with a small
                              filling of chopped sour yellow plums, at a local Azerbaijani
                              restaurant. Both the Ottomans and the Persians fought over the
                              territory that is now Azerbaijan, and apparently both thought that
                              Azerbaijani cooks were among the best.

                              I don't know if sour yellow plums are called for in any European
                              cuisines, but they are frequently used in 15th and 16th c. Ottoman
                              cuisine, according to surviving menus and food purchase records. The
                              mid-15th century translator of al-Baghdadi's cookbook, who also added
                              around 80 of his own recipes to the manuscript, was from the city of
                              Shirvan in what is now Azerbaijan. And those little yellow plums are
                              used in a number of his recipes, leading me to think they were used
                              in Persian and Azerbaijani dishes, too.

                              Shirvani also altered a number of al-Baghdadi's recipes to suit the
                              palace taste, so serving the 13th c. recipes as originally written
                              may well not be how they were cooked in the kitchens of the Sultans.

                              Hmmm, i wonder if they are similar to Japanses ume, which are rather
                              tiny plums. Im only familiar with the preserved salted kind, which
                              are, well, salty, but also quite sour.

                              Anyway, i am digressing from medieval German, so i will stop now.
                              --
                              Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                              the persona formerly known as Anahita
                            • wheezul@canby.com
                              ... In terms of meaning that it is a dish the word s nuance is that it is the arrangement (and not the food itself per se) and it also related to the word
                              Message 14 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                                > I disagree with your interpretation of gericht.  Yes, Gericht is court of
                                > law, and gericht is associated with right/correctness, BUT in this case
                                > 'ein gericht' is 'a dish' as in prepared food.  I do not think the
                                > definition has changed from then to modern.

                                In terms of meaning that it is 'a dish' the word's nuance is that it is
                                the "arrangement" (and not the food itself per se) and it also related to
                                the word 'right' or correctness. I could see why you might want to choose
                                that term. Conceptually though, there is still a somewhat similar nuance
                                of meaning. There are 29 definitions of the noun gericht. Most of them
                                relate to the concept of right as either correctness of form or legal
                                right. I do not find the idea of gericht as a dish incongruent with the
                                meaning I think the sentence fragment holds (i.e. is it a good
                                arrangement, correct, done?)
                                >
                                > As for who the ihnen refers to I would lean toward a particular people. 
                                > not having seen how this fits in context I hesitate to guess, but if it is
                                > part of a travel report then perhaps the ihnen are his hosts????

                                It's really hard to say without reading other recipes or the entire text,
                                but normally I find that hyperbole is at the beginning or the end of a
                                recipe and not in the middle of the instructions. That the author
                                announces it is a good lordly dish before telling you the degree of
                                doneness of the leaves just doesn't make sense logically (and isn't
                                frankly, very Germanic). Weirder things have been written, but I think I
                                make a case for my translation. There is a problem with taking something
                                out of context so more information might be gleaned from the surrounding
                                paragraphs.

                                Katherine
                              • Johnna Holloway
                                But of course he wasn t a cook and he was born in Bohemia. He was a pensioned chief clerk and mining engineer to the Fugger (the German mercantile and banking
                                Message 15 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                                  But of course he wasn't a cook and he was born in Bohemia.
                                  He was a pensioned chief clerk and mining engineer to the Fugger (the
                                  German mercantile and banking dynasty).

                                  He described foods; he didn't cook them.

                                  Johnnae

                                  On Mar 9, 2010, at 1:27 PM, wheezul@... wrote:

                                  > > I disagree with your interpretation of gericht.� Yes, Gericht is
                                  > court of
                                  > > law, and gericht is associated with right/correctness, BUT in this
                                  > case
                                  > > 'ein gericht' is 'a dish' as in prepared food.� I do not think the
                                  > > definition has changed from then to modern.
                                  >
                                  > In terms of meaning that it is 'a dish' the word's nuance is that it
                                  > is
                                  > the "arrangement" (and not the food itself per se) and it also
                                  > related to
                                  > the word 'right' or correctness. I could see why you might want to
                                  > choose
                                  > that term. Conceptually though, there is still a somewhat similar
                                  > nuance
                                  > of meaning. There are 29 definitions of the noun gericht. Most of them
                                  > relate to the concept of right as either correctness of form or legal
                                  > right. I do not find the idea of gericht as a dish incongruent with
                                  > the
                                  > meaning I think the sentence fragment holds (i.e. is it a good
                                  > arrangement, correct, done?)
                                  > >
                                  > > As for who the ihnen refers to I would lean toward a particular
                                  > people.�
                                  > > not having seen how this fits in context I hesitate to guess, but
                                  > if it is
                                  > > part of a travel report then perhaps the ihnen are his hosts????
                                  >
                                  > It's really hard to say without reading other recipes or the entire
                                  > text,
                                  > but normally I find that hyperbole is at the beginning or the end of a
                                  > recipe and not in the middle of the instructions. That the author
                                  > announces it is a good lordly dish before telling you the degree of
                                  > doneness of the leaves just doesn't make sense logically (and isn't
                                  > frankly, very Germanic). Weirder things have been written, but I
                                  > think I
                                  > make a case for my translation. There is a problem with taking
                                  > something
                                  > out of context so more information might be gleaned from the
                                  > surrounding
                                  > paragraphs.
                                  >
                                  > Katherine
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • wheezul@canby.com
                                  Not very engineer like either ;) I d be interested in reading the preceeding paragraph. Katherine
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                                    Not very engineer like either ;) I'd be interested in reading the
                                    preceeding paragraph.

                                    Katherine

                                    > But of course he wasn't a cook and he was born in Bohemia.
                                    > He was a pensioned chief clerk and mining engineer to the Fugger (the
                                    > German mercantile and banking dynasty).
                                    >
                                    > He described foods; he didn't cook them.
                                    >
                                    > Johnnae
                                  • lilinah@earthlink.net
                                    Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen. Daruntter hagt man auch sawere
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                                      Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
                                      voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
                                      Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
                                      im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                                      sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.

                                      Katherine wrote:
                                      >This sentence seems to be a sticking point.
                                      >
                                      >das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                                      >sein

                                      Yup... and the rest of it, too:
                                      das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                                      sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail

                                      >Let's analyze each word for nuance because as translators, especially ones
                                      >not fluent in the language from birth, tend to go with what matches our
                                      >perception and we don't understand the breadth of a word. Especially
                                      >since we are talking older forms.

                                      Snipping the word by word analysis...

                                      There is another set of nuances, to which you alluded but which you
                                      elided... the nuances of foody language.

                                      Now Dernschwam was a relatively sophisticated man and may have
                                      grasped some of those nuances, at least as regards European food. But
                                      he was no cook, and some of his descriptions show his prejudice
                                      against Ottoman food.
                                      --
                                      Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                                      the persona formerly known as Anahita
                                    • lilinah@earthlink.net
                                      The excerpt in which Dernschwam talks about food and various dishes is on Thomas Gloning s site: http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/dernfood.htm I have also
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                                        The excerpt in which Dernschwam talks about food and various dishes
                                        is on Thomas Gloning's site:
                                        http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/dernfood.htm

                                        I have also copied it and saved it in Rich Text Format (rtf) and put
                                        it in the Files section of this list on Yahoo.

                                        It begins on page 123 of his Tagebuch as published in 1923, and goes
                                        through 129, with an edit on p. 130 and continuing with part of p. 131

                                        Bear in mind that the text includes his transcriptions of some
                                        Ottoman words, the names of specific food preparations, such as
                                        czorba, which is Turkish for soup, now written as chorba.
                                        --
                                        Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                                        the persona formerly known as Anahita
                                      • Cat .
                                        Thank you, in skimming the text in the link that word was eluding me.  In this context does Printzsch mean Princely or is this another Turkish word
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                                          Thank you, in skimming the text in the link that word was eluding me.  In this context does Printzsch mean Princely or is this another Turkish word translation I am missing?

                                          The rest of the text reads fairly well, though I can definetely hear the 'Bohemian' accent in his writing, but knowing that makes figuring out some of the words easier.

                                          Thanks for the new reading matter.
                                          Gwen Cat




                                          ________________________________
                                          From: "lilinah@..." <lilinah@...>
                                          To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 2:20:05 PM
                                          Subject: [cooking_rumpolt] Dernschwam text, was OT: 16th c. German, not Rumpolt

                                           
                                          The excerpt in which Dernschwam talks about food and various dishes
                                          is on Thomas Gloning's site:
                                          http://www.uni- giessen.de/ gloning/tx/ dernfood. htm

                                          I have also copied it and saved it in Rich Text Format (rtf) and put
                                          it in the Files section of this list on Yahoo.

                                          It begins on page 123 of his Tagebuch as published in 1923, and goes
                                          through 129, with an edit on p. 130 and continuing with part of p. 131

                                          Bear in mind that the text includes his transcriptions of some
                                          Ottoman words, the names of specific food preparations, such as
                                          czorba, which is Turkish for soup, now written as chorba.
                                          --
                                          Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                                          the persona formerly known as Anahita






                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Cat .
                                          to perhaps clarify dish versus arrangement let me quote this paragraph from the same text:: Die turkhen essen vnd siczen alle auff der erden vnd, darnachs
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                                            to perhaps clarify 'dish' versus 'arrangement' let me quote this paragraph from the same text::

                                            Die turkhen essen vnd siczen alle auff der erden vnd, darnachs
                                            jeder vermag, auff die erden ein dakhen ader tebich vndergepraith,
                                            siczen sy zw rings herumb, haben khain tisch. Wer es
                                            vermag, der brait ein sophra auff, das ist ein rund leder,
                                            darauff seczt er ein braitte hulczene ader kupffrene, verzintte,
                                            flache schussel, dorein seczt man ein gericht ader 2 ader 3,
                                            darczw broth vnd loffell; nent man syney. Khain thischtuch
                                            praucht man nicht, sunder wan mans herlich will haltten, zw
                                            rundt vmb ein lang handtuch; das nent man peschkor.

                                            specifically the sentence: "Wer es vermag, der brait ein sophra auff, das ist ein rund leder, darauff seczt er ein braitte hulczene ader kupffrene, verzintte,
                                            flache schussel, dorein seczt man ein gericht ader 2 ader 3,darczw broth vnd loffell; nent man syney. "

                                            "Who so wishes, spreads out a sophra, that is a round leather, thereon he sets a wide woodern or copper, tinned flat bowl, therein one sets one dish or 2 or 3, thereto bread and spoon, one calls (this) syney."

                                            The rest of the sentence mentions they sit on the ground (or on cloths or small rugs) and have no table, do not need a table cloth and if they want it to be 'fancy' (or lordly) they use a long towled (hand cloth) that is called a peschkor.

                                            In service and curiosity
                                            Gwen Cat



                                             



                                            ________________________________
                                            From: "wheezul@..." <wheezul@...>
                                            To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 11:27:36 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [cooking_rumpolt] OT: 16th c. German, not Rumpolt

                                             
                                            > I disagree with your interpretation of gericht.  Yes, Gericht is court of
                                            > law, and gericht is associated with right/correctness, BUT in this case
                                            > 'ein gericht' is 'a dish' as in prepared food.  I do not think the
                                            > definition has changed from then to modern.

                                            In terms of meaning that it is 'a dish' the word's nuance is that it is
                                            the "arrangement" (and not the food itself per se) and it also related to
                                            the word 'right' or correctness. I could see why you might want to choose
                                            that term. Conceptually though, there is still a somewhat similar nuance
                                            of meaning. There are 29 definitions of the noun gericht. Most of them
                                            relate to the concept of right as either correctness of form or legal
                                            right. I do not find the idea of gericht as a dish incongruent with the
                                            meaning I think the sentence fragment holds (i.e. is it a good
                                            arrangement, correct, done?)
                                            >
                                            > As for who the ihnen refers to I would lean toward a particular people. 
                                            > not having seen how this fits in context I hesitate to guess, but if it is
                                            > part of a travel report then perhaps the ihnen are his hosts????

                                            It's really hard to say without reading other recipes or the entire text,
                                            but normally I find that hyperbole is at the beginning or the end of a
                                            recipe and not in the middle of the instructions. That the author
                                            announces it is a good lordly dish before telling you the degree of
                                            doneness of the leaves just doesn't make sense logically (and isn't
                                            frankly, very Germanic). Weirder things have been written, but I think I
                                            make a case for my translation. There is a problem with taking something
                                            out of context so more information might be gleaned from the surrounding
                                            paragraphs.

                                            Katherine







                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • lilinah@earthlink.net
                                            ... It is Ottoman for rice, from a Farsi word. One famous dish, birinc (now written pirinc-cedilla) herisesi, is a dish of rice cooked first in chicken broth,
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                                              Gwen Cat wrote:
                                              >Thank you, in skimming the text in the link that word was eluding
                                              >me. In this context does Printzsch mean Princely or is this another
                                              >Turkish word translation I am missing?

                                              It is Ottoman for rice, from a Farsi word.

                                              One famous dish, birinc (now written pirinc-cedilla) herisesi, is a
                                              dish of rice cooked first in chicken broth, then with milk, until it
                                              is porridge, then season with salt and sugar to taste. Next stir in
                                              shredded cooked chicken breast and place in a serving dish. Top with
                                              clarified butter, sprinkle with rosewater, dust with powdered sugar,
                                              and eat.
                                              --
                                              Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                                              the persona formerly known as Anahita
                                            • Cat .
                                              DOH!  Printzsch haist reys! which I was taking to mean the start of the recipe (rice cooked in a sheep meat soup....) instead of the straight translation
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                                                DOH!  Printzsch haist reys!
                                                which I was taking to mean the start of the recipe (rice cooked in a sheep meat soup....) instead of the straight translation Printzsch means rice - DOH!

                                                Thanks again.
                                                Gwen time to stop, brain full for today ;-) Cat




                                                ________________________________
                                                From: "lilinah@..." <lilinah@...>
                                                To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Tue, March 9, 2010 3:14:20 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [cooking_rumpolt] Dernschwam text, was OT: 16th c. German, not Rumpolt

                                                 
                                                Gwen Cat wrote:
                                                >Thank you, in skimming the text in the link that word was eluding
                                                >me. In this context does Printzsch mean Princely or is this another
                                                >Turkish word translation I am missing?

                                                It is Ottoman for rice, from a Farsi word.

                                                One famous dish, birinc (now written pirinc-cedilla) herisesi, is a
                                                dish of rice cooked first in chicken broth, then with milk, until it
                                                is porridge, then season with salt and sugar to taste. Next stir in
                                                shredded cooked chicken breast and place in a serving dish. Top with
                                                clarified butter, sprinkle with rosewater, dust with powdered sugar,
                                                and eat.
                                                --
                                                Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                                                the persona formerly known as Anahita






                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • lilinah@earthlink.net
                                                ... BTW, this is a simplified paraphrase of an actual mid-15th c. Ottoman recipe. I didn t want to bore everyone with the whole recipe. -- Urtatim [that s
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                                                  I wrote:
                                                  >One famous dish, birinc (now written pirinc-cedilla) herisesi, is a
                                                  >dish of rice cooked first in chicken broth, then with milk, until it
                                                  >is porridge, then season with salt and sugar to taste. Next stir in
                                                  >shredded cooked chicken breast and place in a serving dish. Top with
                                                  >clarified butter, sprinkle with rosewater, dust with powdered sugar,
                                                  >and eat.

                                                  BTW, this is a simplified paraphrase of an actual mid-15th c. Ottoman
                                                  recipe. I didn't want to bore everyone with the whole recipe.

                                                  --
                                                  Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                                                  the persona formerly known as Anahita
                                                • wheezul@canby.com
                                                  ... Thank you for pointing me to the right place to look. Very interesting - I lived in Turkey for 2 years :) The paragraph before uses the word to mean more
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                                                    >
                                                    > There is another set of nuances, to which you alluded but which you
                                                    > elided... the nuances of foody language.
                                                    >
                                                    > Now Dernschwam was a relatively sophisticated man and may have
                                                    > grasped some of those nuances, at least as regards European food. But
                                                    > he was no cook, and some of his descriptions show his prejudice
                                                    > against Ottoman food.
                                                    > --
                                                    > Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
                                                    > the persona formerly known as Anahita

                                                    Thank you for pointing me to the right place to look. Very interesting -
                                                    I lived in Turkey for 2 years :)

                                                    The paragraph before uses the word to mean more of a preparation/stage of
                                                    the dish to have yogurt added to it.

                                                    The paragraph after starts with the commentary 'Mer sol bey inen auch fwr
                                                    ein kostlich gericht gehaltten' which seems to tie to the paragraph
                                                    before. And then further in the paragraph gericht is used for
                                                    dish/preparation.

                                                    Based on the 'mer sol bey inen' in the following paragraph, I'd go with
                                                    the translation of by them it is a good, dish. It is odd in placement
                                                    based on the other commentaries. Perhaps the fail could be viel (much) -
                                                    so that the sense of the last sentence matches?

                                                    Katherine
                                                  • Sharon Palmer
                                                    ... Rumpolt has recipes for Hungarian plums, which I believe are the small sour, yellow plums. Ranvaig
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                                                      >I don't know if sour yellow plums are called for in any European
                                                      >cuisines,

                                                      Rumpolt has recipes for Hungarian plums, which I believe are the
                                                      small sour, yellow plums.

                                                      Ranvaig
                                                    • Sharon Palmer
                                                      ... Perhaps I should have annotated my translation more. I took it to mean that they .. the Turks considered it a lordly (or perhaps pretty) dish *because*
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Mar 9, 2010
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                                                        >that should be for them also a good lordly dish and has thereto the
                                                        >vine leaves always
                                                        >over the filling.

                                                        Perhaps I should have annotated my translation more. I took it to
                                                        mean that "they".. the Turks considered it a lordly (or perhaps
                                                        pretty) dish *because* the meat was wrapped in the grape leaves. And
                                                        I would agree that this statement is not about doneness.

                                                        And I see I missed much good discussion. I'm not sure if it helps or
                                                        confuses the issue to say that the Early New High German to English
                                                        dictionary says that "richte" is a course in a meal. These
                                                        definitions are taken from Dasypodius, a 1536 German to Latin
                                                        dictionary.

                                                        http://www.germanstudies.org.uk/enhg_dic/enhg_dicr.htm


                                                        Ranvaig
                                                      • xina007eu
                                                        ... Hi all, I think the fail in hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail is the same as feil in e.g. the old-fashioned terms feilbieten - to offer for
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Mar 12, 2010
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                                                          --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, lilinah@... wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > I hope it is not inappropriate to post this here. It's 16th c. German
                                                          > and about food, but not from Rumpolt...
                                                          >
                                                          > I'm teaching a class on 15th and 16th c. Ottoman cooking very soon.
                                                          > Stuffed vine leaves do not show up in Ottoman cookbooks until the
                                                          > 18th or 19th century. However, Hans Dernschwam mentions them in his
                                                          > account of his visit to Kostantaniye (Ottoman for Constantinople) in
                                                          > the late 16th c.
                                                          >
                                                          > Here is his description from Thomas Gloning's site
                                                          > http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/dernfood.htm
                                                          >
                                                          > Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
                                                          > voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
                                                          > Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
                                                          > im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                                                          > sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.
                                                          >
                                                          > I've got it *very roughly* translated, up the last two lines, where i
                                                          >

                                                          Hi all,

                                                          I think the "fail" in "hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail"
                                                          is the same as "feil" in e.g. the old-fashioned terms "feilbieten"- to offer for sale, "wohlfeil sein" - to be available at a low price.

                                                          So my guess is that "hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail"
                                                          means something like "in addition, vine leaves are available everywhere". "Es hat" is South German dialect for standard German "es gibt".
                                                          See the Grimm dictionary entry about "feil":
                                                          "1) feil sein: die sache ist feil, nicht feil, zu haben, nicht zu haben"
                                                          Wonderful phonetic spelling, by the way, also in the other quotation :-)

                                                          Best regards,

                                                          Christina
                                                        • Cat .
                                                          Hi Christina thanks for posting.  This rings true to me.  I was thinking of because vine leaves fall (thinking we have the vines. so lets use the leaves...)
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Mar 12, 2010
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                                                            Hi Christina

                                                            thanks for posting.  This rings true to me.  I was thinking of because vine leaves fall (thinking we have the vines. so lets use the leaves...)  and your answer  makes sense both in that context and in the use of the words.

                                                            THANKS
                                                            Gwen Cat




                                                            ________________________________
                                                            From: xina007eu <Christina_Lemke@...>
                                                            To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                                                            Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 11:20:01 AM
                                                            Subject: [cooking_rumpolt] Re: OT: 16th c. German, not Rumpolt

                                                             


                                                            --- In cooking_rumpolt@ yahoogroups. com, lilinah@... wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > I hope it is not inappropriate to post this here. It's 16th c. German
                                                            > and about food, but not from Rumpolt...
                                                            >
                                                            > I'm teaching a class on 15th and 16th c. Ottoman cooking very soon.
                                                            > Stuffed vine leaves do not show up in Ottoman cookbooks until the
                                                            > 18th or 19th century. However, Hans Dernschwam mentions them in his
                                                            > account of his visit to Kostantaniye (Ottoman for Constantinople) in
                                                            > the late 16th c.
                                                            >
                                                            > Here is his description from Thomas Gloning's site
                                                            > http://www.uni- giessen.de/ gloning/tx/ dernfood. htm
                                                            >
                                                            > Item, schaffen flaisch, klain gehagt, des thut man ein loffel
                                                            > voller auff ein wein plat, wigkelt man zusamen wie ein krapffen.
                                                            > Daruntter hagt man auch sawere pflawmen, sewdt man allein
                                                            > im wasser ab, das sol bey inen auch ein guth, herlich gericht
                                                            > sein vnd hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail.
                                                            >
                                                            > I've got it *very roughly* translated, up the last two lines, where i
                                                            >

                                                            Hi all,

                                                            I think the "fail" in "hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail"
                                                            is the same as "feil" in e.g. the old-fashioned terms "feilbieten" - to offer for sale, "wohlfeil sein" - to be available at a low price.

                                                            So my guess is that "hot darzw die wein pletter vberal fail"
                                                            means something like "in addition, vine leaves are available everywhere". "Es hat" is South German dialect for standard German "es gibt".
                                                            See the Grimm dictionary entry about "feil":
                                                            "1) feil sein: die sache ist feil, nicht feil, zu haben, nicht zu haben"
                                                            Wonderful phonetic spelling, by the way, also in the other quotation :-)

                                                            Best regards,

                                                            Christina







                                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          • xina007eu
                                                            ... Hi Gwen Cat, I agree with you. The inen are the Turks. He is saying that this is supposed to be (sol) ein good marvelous dish (ein guth, herlich gericht)
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Mar 17, 2010
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                                                              --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, "Cat ." <tgrcat2001@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > Thank you for repeating the link.  I am skimming things as I am at work.  and having skimmed over the link I would suggest the ihnen is the Turks (turkish peoples) since the entire article is about the food they eat (and his opening statement seems he is underwhelmed: the turks eat poor wretched (miserable) foods/dishes that one shudders (to think about eating them)...
                                                              >
                                                              > In Service
                                                              > Gwen Cat
                                                              >
                                                              >

                                                              Hi Gwen Cat,
                                                              I agree with you. The "inen" are the Turks. He is saying that this is supposed to be (sol) ein good marvelous dish (ein guth, herlich gericht) for or among them (bey inen). Throughout the text "sy" (sie=they), "ire" (ihre=their), "inen" (ihnen = them) refers to the Turks.
                                                              He also mentions that they eat a lot of grapes which would mean that vine leaves would indeed be widely available:
                                                              "Vmb Constantinapol weit vnd prait fressen sy die weinper im herbst auff." (In a large area around Constantinople they eat up the grapes in autumn). Wow, that is really rude, "fressen" is used for animals, not people! However, I guess if a Turkish traveller had gone to Germany during that time, his comments would also have been quite rude - political correctness hadn't been invented yet.

                                                              Best regards,

                                                              Christina
                                                            • Carowyn Silveroak
                                                              Greetings! ... In Pennsylvania Dutch, it means to gobble , like we d say someone s snarfing their food faster than they really need to. So it can refer to
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Mar 18, 2010
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                                                                Greetings!

                                                                >Wow, that is really rude, "fressen" is used for animals,
                                                                > not people!

                                                                In Pennsylvania Dutch, it means "to gobble", like we'd say someone's
                                                                snarfing their food faster than they really need to. So it can refer to
                                                                either people or animals......

                                                                But I've heard it's *really* a rude word in Yiddish!!

                                                                -Carowyn, who was known as a "fresser" when a child in a Penna Dutch
                                                                community, but *not* in Yiddish! ;-)
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