Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Proper type of beans?

Expand Messages
  • Marion McNealy
    Greetings all, Rumpolt has several recipes using beans, sometimes he specifies Roman beans, and other times just beans. What would be a proper bean to use for
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 12, 2009
      Greetings all,
      Rumpolt has several recipes using beans, sometimes he specifies Roman beans, and other times just beans.

      What would be a proper bean to use for the recipes that just reference beans (19,21, 30)? http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_veggie1.htm

      At what point did New World bean varieties become commonplace in Germany?

      - Marion

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Sharon Palmer
      ... Roman beans would be fava. And there are references for Indianische Bonen . That could mean new world beans. After all Rumpolt has references to
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 12, 2009
        >Greetings all,
        >Rumpolt has several recipes using beans, sometimes he specifies Roman beans, and other times just beans.
        >
        >What would be a proper bean to use for the recipes that just reference beans (19,21, 30)? http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_veggie1.htm
        >
        >At what point did New World bean varieties become commonplace in Germany?
        >
        >- Marion
        >
        Roman beans would be fava. And there are references for "Indianische Bonen". That could mean new world beans. After all Rumpolt has references to Turkeys. But I think plain "bonen" is likely to be fava beans too.

        Menu items:
        Grün Bonen Salat.
        Indianische Bonen.
        Von Indianischen Bonen/ wann sie gequellt sind/ ein Salat.

        Salat 41. Nimm Römische Bonen/ quells und küls auß/ machs an mit Öl/ Essig und Salz.

        Suppen 13. Nimm grüne Bonen/ wenn sie gesotten sein/ stoß und streich sie mit der Brühe/ darinn sie
        gesotten/ durch/ pfeffers/ gelbs/ salzs und schmältzs/ schneidt auch Pettersilgen Wurzel darein/
        und laß damit auf sieden. Du magst auch wohl gantze Bonen darein thun/ daß man sihet/ daß ein
        Bonensuppen ist.

        Searching for "Indianische" I wonder what an indian piglet would be? Pigs are old world not new.

        Indianische Schweinlein gebraten.
        Indianische Fercklein.

        Ranvaig
      • lilinah@earthlink.net
        I don t know about Rumpolt, but black-eyed peas - and i personally suspect their cousin without a black eye, cream peas - were known in the Muslim world and
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 12, 2009
          I don't know about Rumpolt, but black-eyed peas - and i personally suspect their cousin without a black eye, "cream peas" - were known in the Muslim world and in parts of Europe. So they may be possible as beans, along with the favas.

          Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
        • Johnna Holloway
          How very strange. This message never posted. I sent it yesterday am. Have you looked at the award winning book Beans: A History by Ken Albala? My suspicion is
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 13, 2009
            How very strange. This message never posted. I sent it yesterday am.

            Have you looked at the award winning book Beans: A History
            by Ken Albala?

            My suspicion is that the Roman beans may be fava beans.


            Johnnae

            Marion McNealy wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Greetings all,
            > Rumpolt has several recipes using beans, sometimes he specifies Roman
            > beans, and other times just beans.
            >
            > What would be a proper bean to use for the recipes that just reference
            > beans (19,21, 30)? http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_veggie1.htm
            > <http://clem.mscd.edu/%7Egrasse/GK_veggie1.htm>
            >
            > At what point did New World bean varieties become commonplace in Germany?
            >
            > - Marion
            >
          • Anne-Marie Rousseau
            Hey all from Anne-Marie I usuall stick with beans like fava, garbanzos, etc (which aren t actually beans of course :-), being members of the pea genus Pisum)
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 13, 2009
              Hey all from Anne-Marie



              I usuall stick with beans like fava, garbanzos, etc (which aren't actually
              beans of course :-), being members of the pea genus Pisum) or I'll use black
              eyed peas (Vigna unguiculata). Beans like kidney beas, etc are Phaseolus
              spp.



              My reasoning for that is that peasant painting "the bean eater" where he's
              eating a big bowl of what looks EXACTLY like black eyed peas. I don't know
              for sure that they're the same, but they are the same size and shape and
              color. And they were common enough for a peasant to eat them, which tells me
              they weren't a huge fancy luxury item.



              Yum! The bean salad with the black eyed peas from Rumpolt (IIRC?) that is
              awful tasty :-)



              --AM







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • otsisto
              Modernly, Roman beans are not the same as Fava beans and I suspect weren t the same back then. These are Roman beans. http://tinyurl.com/lfmfav Sometimes
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 13, 2009
                Modernly, Roman beans are not the same as Fava beans and I suspect weren't
                the same back then.

                These are Roman beans.
                http://tinyurl.com/lfmfav
                Sometimes refered to as cranberry beans or borlotti and found in many
                Italian bean dishes.

                Beans/list, modern
                http://www.foodsubs.com/Beans.html

                De


                -----Original Message-----

                >Greetings all,
                >Rumpolt has several recipes using beans, sometimes he specifies Roman
                beans, and other times just beans.
                >
                >What would be a proper bean to use for the recipes that just reference
                beans (19,21, 30)? http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_veggie1.htm
                >
                >At what point did New World bean varieties become commonplace in Germany?
                >
                >- Marion
                >
                Roman beans would be fava. And there are references for "Indianische
                Bonen". That could mean new world beans. After all Rumpolt has references
                to Turkeys. But I think plain "bonen" is likely to be fava beans too.

                Menu items:
                Grün Bonen Salat.
                Indianische Bonen.
                Von Indianischen Bonen/ wann sie gequellt sind/ ein Salat.

                Salat 41. Nimm Römische Bonen/ quells und küls auß/ machs an mit Öl/ Essig
                und Salz.

                Suppen 13. Nimm grüne Bonen/ wenn sie gesotten sein/ stoß und streich sie
                mit der Brühe/ darinn sie
                gesotten/ durch/ pfeffers/ gelbs/ salzs und schmältzs/ schneidt auch
                Pettersilgen Wurzel darein/
                und laß damit auf sieden. Du magst auch wohl gantze Bonen darein thun/ daß
                man sihet/ daß ein
                Bonensuppen ist.

                Searching for "Indianische" I wonder what an indian piglet would be?
                Pigs are old world not new.

                Indianische Schweinlein gebraten.
                Indianische Fercklein.

                Ranvaig


                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Sharon Palmer
                ... Those are a new world bean. Ranvaig
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 13, 2009
                  >Modernly, Roman beans are not the same as Fava beans and I suspect weren't
                  >the same back then.
                  >
                  >These are Roman beans.
                  >http://tinyurl.com/lfmfav
                  >Sometimes refered to as cranberry beans or borlotti and found in many
                  >Italian bean dishes.
                  >
                  >Beans/list, modern
                  >http://www.foodsubs.com/Beans.html
                  >
                  >De

                  Those are a new world bean.

                  Ranvaig
                • Sharon Palmer
                  ... Favas are Genus Vicia, family Fabacaea, Garbanzo are Genus Cicer, family Fabacaea, Peas are Genus Pisum, family Fabacaea Black eyed peas are Genus Vigna,
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 13, 2009
                    >Hey all from Anne-Marie
                    >
                    >I usuall stick with beans like fava, garbanzos, etc (which aren't actually
                    >beans of course :-), being members of the pea genus Pisum)
                    > or I'll use black
                    >eyed peas (Vigna unguiculata). Beans like kidney beas, etc are Phaseolus
                    >spp.

                    Favas are Genus Vicia, family Fabacaea,
                    Garbanzo are Genus Cicer, family Fabacaea,
                    Peas are Genus Pisum, family Fabacaea
                    Black eyed peas are Genus Vigna, Tribe Phaseoleae, family Fabacaea

                    >My reasoning for that is that peasant painting "the bean eater" where he's
                    >eating a big bowl of what looks EXACTLY like black eyed peas. I don't know
                    >for sure that they're the same, but they are the same size and shape and
                    >color. And they were common enough for a peasant to eat them, which tells me
                    >they weren't a huge fancy luxury item.

                    The more I look at this, the more I agree with you that "bonen" likely means some Vigna species.

                    There are also recipes for "Erbeß" or peas. I've assumed that it meant the kind of peas we get as split peas. I cooked one of the recipes awhile back, and searched out "white peas" which someone said might be the right type. But when you hull them (which the recipe calls for) they look and taste *exactly* like split yellow peas.

                    Ranvaig
                  • otsisto
                    ... Those are a new world bean. Ranvaig Perhaps it is the Romano bean/Italian flat bean? To my understanding it is not a NW bean.
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 13, 2009
                      -----Original Message-----
                      Those are a new world bean.

                      Ranvaig>>>

                      Perhaps it is the Romano bean/Italian flat bean? To my understanding it is
                      not a NW bean.
                    • Sharon Palmer
                      ... Romano is also a NW bean. Ranvaig
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 14, 2009
                        >-----Original Message-----
                        >Those are a new world bean.
                        >
                        >Ranvaig>>>
                        >
                        >Perhaps it is the Romano bean/Italian flat bean? To my understanding it is
                        >not a NW bean.


                        Romano is also a NW bean.

                        Ranvaig
                      • otsisto
                        Then I guess then Zolfino bean is NW. http://www.parks.it/anp.le.balze-FI/foto/Fagiolo.Zolfino.jpg This is the response from Ayer s Creek Farm on why they
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 14, 2009
                          Then I guess then Zolfino bean is NW.
                          http://www.parks.it/anp.le.balze-FI/foto/Fagiolo.Zolfino.jpg

                          This is the response from Ayer's Creek Farm on why they differentiate
                          between the cranberry and the borlotti.

                          ""Here is the bean geek response.

                          The original "cranberry bean" is a roundish garnet red bean, and a bit
                          smaller than what we typically call a cranberry bean. It is a pole bean.
                          Yes, it looks like a cranberry, red and round. The "true cranberry bean" is
                          still available from a few seed houses. We grew it, but did not regard it as
                          great bean.
                          The beans we call cranberry types today, are thought to have originated as a
                          hybrid of the white round bean and the "true" cranberry bean. Historically,
                          they were called "horticultural beans." They are large, red and white beans,
                          sometimes having black, brown or purple markings as well. The pods are
                          streaked with red and purple. They are also called Scotch, Roman or Rosecoco
                          beans.
                          In Italian, the horticultural beans are included in the borlotti. It must be
                          noted that some borlotti are more kidney shaped (elongated) than what we
                          typically regard as a cranberry or horticultural type. There are bush and
                          pole varieties. The borlotti are mostly from northern Italy, and are often
                          named for the town where the type is grown. So, Borlotto Lamon is from the
                          town of Lamon in the Veneto, northwest of Venice. It is a climbing or pole
                          type, and is a very good bean.

                          Could Rumpolt still be meaning the borlotti? The bean is alledged to have
                          reached Italy in the early 1500s and Rumpolt is late 1500s.

                          De


                          >-----Original Message-----
                          >Those are a new world bean.
                          >
                          >Ranvaig>>>
                          >
                          >Perhaps it is the Romano bean/Italian flat bean? To my understanding it is
                          >not a NW bean.


                          Romano is also a NW bean.

                          Ranvaig


                          ------------------------------------

                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • otsisto
                          Okay, now that I have finally got my brain to shift to 2nd gear, Rumpolt is 1585 therefore the John Gerard herbal may apply as it was printed in 1600. In Of
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 14, 2009
                            Okay, now that I have finally got my brain to shift to 2nd gear,
                            Rumpolt is 1585 therefore the John Gerard herbal may apply as it was printed
                            in 1600.
                            In "Of the History of Plants" page 1216, under "The Names", Last paragraph;
                            "This plant is named in English, Kidney Beane, Sperage Beanes: of some
                            Faselles, or long Peason, French Beanes, Garden Smilax, and Romane Beanes:
                            in French, feues de Romme: in Dutch Turcksbonnen."

                            Note: Sperage beanes are not Sperage (asparagus) which is also in the book.

                            De
                          • Cat .
                            Not a bean expert, or a pea expert, or anything botanical expert, but Rumpolt is 1581. (Doubt 4 years makes much difference, but might as well be accurate.)
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 14, 2009
                              Not a bean expert, or a pea expert, or anything botanical expert, but Rumpolt is 1581. (Doubt 4 years makes much difference, but might as well be accurate.)
                              For the record, I have used Favas for Roman beans, yellow and green split peas, and lentils as specified, but I have not really dug around in the herbals for other details.
                               
                              In Service
                              Gwen Cat

                              --- On Sun, 6/14/09, otsisto <otsisto@...> wrote:


                              From: otsisto <otsisto@...>
                              Subject: RE: [cooking_rumpolt] Proper type of beans?
                              To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 5:26 PM








                              Okay, now that I have finally got my brain to shift to 2nd gear,
                              Rumpolt is 1585 therefore the John Gerard herbal may apply as it was printed
                              in 1600.
                              In "Of the History of Plants" page 1216, under "The Names", Last paragraph;
                              "This plant is named in English, Kidney Beane, Sperage Beanes: of some
                              Faselles, or long Peason, French Beanes, Garden Smilax, and Romane Beanes:
                              in French, feues de Romme: in Dutch Turcksbonnen. "

                              Note: Sperage beanes are not Sperage (asparagus) which is also in the book.

                              De
                            • Sharon Palmer
                              ... Suppen 11. Nimm Zisern/ sonderlich braune/ setz sie im Wasser zu/ und laß sie wohl sieden/ stoß den halben theil/ und streichs mit der Brühe/ darinnen
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jun 14, 2009
                                >Not a bean expert, or a pea expert, or anything
                                >botanical expert, but Rumpolt is 1581. (Doubt 4
                                >years makes much difference, but might as well
                                >be accurate.)
                                >For the record, I have used Favas for Roman
                                >beans, yellow and green split peas, and lentils
                                >as specified, but I have not really dug around
                                >in the herbals for other details.
                                >

                                Suppen 11. Nimm Zisern/ sonderlich braune/ setz
                                sie im Wasser zu/ und laß sie wohl sieden/ stoß
                                den halben
                                theil/ und streichs mit der Brühe/ darinnen sie
                                gesotten haben/ durch/ mach sie ab mit Pfeffer/
                                Salz/ Butter/ Pettersilgen Wurzel/ und mit den
                                vbrigen ganzen Zisern/ laß sieden/ biß die
                                PettersilgenWurzel gar wirdt. Wiltu sie aber
                                lauter haben/ so darffstu die Zisern nit stossen.

                                Suppen 12. Nimm Linsen/ setz sie im Wasser zu/
                                und laß sie sieden. Wenn sie gesotten sein/ so
                                stoß sie
                                halben theils/ und streich sie mit der Brühe/
                                darinnen sie gesotten haben/ durch/ machs mit
                                Pfeffer ab/ gelbs/ salzs und schmältzs/ thu die
                                vbrigen Linsen auch darein/ und laß damit sieden/
                                thu grüne wolschmeckende Kräuter darunter/ so wirt es auch gut.

                                Linsen are lentils. And Zisern are chickpeas, so
                                perhaps the Roman beas are something else.

                                Ranvaig
                              • xina007eu
                                ... It s a guinea pig (cavy). See http://www.the-golden-nuggets.de/rasse/rasse.htm which quotes from a 16th century text: Das Indianische Küniglein oder
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jun 15, 2009
                                  --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, Sharon Palmer <ranvaig@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Searching for "Indianische" I wonder what an indian piglet would be? Pigs are old world not new.
                                  >
                                  > Indianische Schweinlein gebraten.
                                  > Indianische Fercklein.
                                  >
                                  > Ranvaig
                                  >

                                  It's a guinea pig (cavy). See
                                  http://www.the-golden-nuggets.de/rasse/rasse.htm
                                  which quotes from a 16th century text:
                                  "Das Indianische Küniglein oder Säulein (anderswo nennt man sie auch Meer = Schweinlein / vielleicht weil sie über Meer in unsere Lande kommen sind) ist vor noch nicht langen Jahren auß der neuerfundenen Welt in unsere Lande gebracht worden [....]"
                                  Translation:
                                  "The Indian rabbit or piglet (elsewhere they are also called sea piglets, maybe because they came to our country from overseas) was brought not many years ago from the new-found world into our country."

                                  I think they were and still are eaten in some South American countries and considered a delicacy, aren't they?

                                  Best regards,

                                  Christina
                                • Cat .
                                  ... From: Sharon Palmer Subject: RE: [cooking_rumpolt] Proper type of beans? To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, June
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jun 15, 2009
                                    --- On Sun, 6/14/09, Sharon Palmer <ranvaig@...> wrote:


                                    From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig@...>
                                    Subject: RE: [cooking_rumpolt] Proper type of beans?
                                    To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 9:17 PM








                                    >Not a bean expert, or a pea expert, or anything
                                    >botanical expert, but Rumpolt is 1581. (Doubt 4
                                    >years makes much difference, but might as well
                                    >be accurate.)
                                    >For the record, I have used Favas for Roman
                                    >beans, yellow and green split peas, and lentils
                                    >as specified, but I have not really dug around
                                    >in the herbals for other details.
                                    >

                                    Suppen 11. Nimm Zisern/ sonderlich braune/ setz
                                    sie im Wasser zu/ und laß sie wohl sieden/ stoß
                                    den halben
                                    theil/ und streichs mit der Brühe/ darinnen sie
                                    gesotten haben/ durch/ mach sie ab mit Pfeffer/
                                    Salz/ Butter/ Pettersilgen Wurzel/ und mit den
                                    vbrigen ganzen Zisern/ laß sieden/ biß die
                                    PettersilgenWurzel gar wirdt. Wiltu sie aber
                                    lauter haben/ so darffstu die Zisern nit stossen.

                                    Suppen 12. Nimm Linsen/ setz sie im Wasser zu/
                                    und laß sie sieden. Wenn sie gesotten sein/ so
                                    stoß sie
                                    halben theils/ und streich sie mit der Brühe/
                                    darinnen sie gesotten haben/ durch/ machs mit
                                    Pfeffer ab/ gelbs/ salzs und schmältzs/ thu die
                                    vbrigen Linsen auch darein/ und laß damit sieden/
                                    thu grüne wolschmeckende Kräuter darunter/ so wirt es auch gut.

                                    Linsen are lentils. And Zisern are chickpeas, so
                                    perhaps the Roman beas are something else.

                                    Ranvaig

                                    OK just a little confused here. I used lentils in the Linsen recipe, Peas in the Erbsen suppe recipe, fava beans in the Ro:emische Bonen recipe, though I admit, this one I would also use favas for:

                                    30. Nim{b} Bonen/ quell sie in einem Wasser/ vnd zeuch die Ha:eutlein davon hinweg/ machs eyn mit Erbeszbru:eh vnd guter frischer Butter/ auch gru:enen wolschmeckenden Kra:eutern/ die klein gehackt seyn/ lasz damit auffsieden/ vnd versaltz es nicht/ so werden sie gut vnd wolgeschmack.

                                    30. Take beans/ poach them in a water/ and pull the skins off
                                    make them with a peabroth and good fresh butter/ also green
                                    welltasting herbs/ that are chopped small/ let simmer therewith
                                    and do not oversalt it/ so they will be good and welltasting.

                                    In Service and confusion
                                    Gwen Cat
                                  • Marion McNealy
                                    Thanks to everyone that answered! You really helped me out and I ll report back with the results. - Marion [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jun 15, 2009
                                      Thanks to everyone that answered!
                                      You really helped me out and I'll report back with the results.

                                      - Marion

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Sharon Palmer
                                      ... I was bringing a couple more legume recipes into the discussion. I m not sure which part was confusing. Ranvaig
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jun 15, 2009
                                        >
                                        >Linsen are lentils. And Zisern are chickpeas, so
                                        >perhaps the Roman beas are something else.
                                        >
                                        >Ranvaig
                                        >
                                        >OK just a little confused here. I used lentils in the Linsen
                                        >recipe, Peas in the Erbsen suppe recipe, fava beans in the
                                        >Ro:emische Bonen recipe, though I admit, this one I would also use
                                        >favas for:

                                        I was bringing a couple more legume recipes into the discussion. I'm
                                        not sure which part was confusing.

                                        Ranvaig
                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.