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Re: [cooking_rumpolt] Kalb 14 - boiled liver dumplings

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  • Cat .
    quick minute before I dive into the fall schedule again (gahhh) lung, not liver :) kundschaft is modernly customers from Kunde or kunden I am guessing a typo
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 1, 2012
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      quick minute before I dive into the fall schedule again (gahhh)

      lung, not liver :)
      kundschaft is modernly customers from Kunde or kunden
      I am guessing a typo on einschlahen  einschlagen makes more sense than einschlafen (which is what I wish I could go back and do  :)

      Cat



      >________________________________
      > From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig@...>
      >To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
      >Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:21 PM
      >Subject: [cooking_rumpolt] Kalb 14 - boiled liver dumplings
      >
      >

      >Kalb 14. Schlickkrapffen von einer Lungen zu
      >machen. Nim~ die gesottene Lungen/ vnd hack sie
      >fein klein/ vnnd reib darvnter ein Parmesankeß/
      >Weck oder Semmel/ vnd grüne Kräuter/ thu auch
      >gestossenen Pfeffer darein/ vnd wenn es klein
      >durcheinander gehackt ist/
      >
      >14. To make boiled dumplings (ravioli) from a
      >lung. Take the boiled lung/ and chop them very
      >small/ and grate a parmesan cheese with it/ weck
      >bread or semmel/ and green herbs/ also put ground
      >pepper in it/ and when it chopped together small/
      >
      >so nim~ den Dotter von einem Ey/ vnd vnzerlassene
      >Meyenbutter/ zerlaß sie/ vn~ sieg es durch ein
      >Härin Tuch/ vnd thu es darein/ hacks/ so wirdt es
      >darvon fest/ nim~ Mehl/ vn~ thu darvnter drey
      >oder vier Eyer/ vnd ein wenig Saltz/ vnd mach ein
      >Teig darauß/ vn~ mach jhn fest/ daß du jn kanst
      >mit einem Walger außtreiben/
      >
      >then take the yolk of an egg/ and unmelted May
      >butter/ melt it/ and pour it through a hair
      >cloth/ and put it in there/ chop it/ then it will
      >be thick from it/ take flour/ and put three or
      >four eggs in it/ and a little salt/ and make a
      >dough from it/ and make it thick/ that you can
      >drive it out with a rolling pin/
      >
      >schlag die Füll darein/ vnd mach Krapffen darauß/
      >nicht groß/ sonder klein/ vnd wann du es gemacht
      >hast/ so schneidt es mit einem Rädtlein ab/ Nim~
      >in einem saubern vberzinten Fischkessel ein gute
      >Rindtfleischbrüh/ oder ein Hen~enbrüh/ die nicht
      >versaltzen ist/
      >
      >wrap the filling in it/ and make dumplings from
      >it/ not big/ but small/ and when you have made
      >them/ then cut it up with a pastry wheel/ In a
      >clean tinned fish kettle take a good beef broth/
      >or a chicken broth/ that is not over salted/
      >
      >wann sie sehr gesaltzen ist/ so nim~ Wasser
      >darvnter/ setz es auff Kolen mit dem Kessel/ vnd
      >wen~ die Brüh seudt/ so wirff ein Krapffen nach
      >dem andern hinein/ vnd schaw/ daß du sie nit
      >zerwirffst/ laß sie gar gemach sieden/ daß sie
      >nicht voneinander fahren/
      >
      >if it is very salty/ then take water with it/ set
      >it on coals in the kettle/ and when the broth
      >boils/ then throw the dumplings in one after
      >another/ and see/ that you do not over throw
      >(throw too hard??)/ let them boil very gently/
      >that they do not come apart/
      >
      >thu darein gantze Muscatenblüht/ vnd grüne
      >Kräuter/ auch frische Meyenbutter/ vnd laß es
      >darmit sieden/ vnd versaltz es nicht/ so wirdt es
      >gut/Vnd du mußt es nicht lang sieden lassen/ nur
      >ein halbe stundt/ leßt du es lang sieden/ so
      >wirstu es versiede~/ vnd wirst es nicht können
      >anrichten.
      >
      >put whole mace in it/ and green herbs/ also fresh
      >May butter/ and let it boil together/ and do not
      >over salt it/ then it will be good/ And you must
      >not let them boil long/ only half an hour/ if you
      >let them too boil long/ then they will over cook/
      >and you can not serve them.
      >
      >Auch vergiß nicht/ wann du die Lunge~ wilt
      >einschlahen/ so nim~ ein Ey/ vn~ zerklopffs wol/
      >bestreich mit einem Pensel den Teig darmit/ so
      >bleibt es fest beyeinander/ wann du es kochst in
      >der Brüh.
      >
      >Also do not forget/ when you want to wrap?? the
      >lungs/ then take an egg/ and beat it well/ brush
      >the dough with a feather with it/ then it says
      >firm together/ when you boil it in the broth.
      >
      >Vnnd mach kundtschafft mit dem fleiß/ denn er ist
      >ein trefflich guter Gesell/ ist vberal/ wer mit
      >jm kundtschafft haben wil.
      >
      >And make kundtschafft?? with the diligence/ for
      >he is a splendid good journeyman/ is overall/ who
      >will have kundtschafft?? with him.
      >
      >-- Could einschlahen be einschlagen or wrap? By
      >context it might mean something like "to seal"
      >
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • wheezul@canby.com
      Gahhh! You too. I am in the nasty throes of fall scheduling too! I ll try to catch up this weekend. Katherine
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 1, 2012
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        Gahhh! You too. I am in the nasty throes of fall scheduling too! I'll
        try to catch up this weekend.

        Katherine

        > quick minute before I dive into the fall schedule again (gahhh)
        >
        > lung, not liver :)
        > kundschaft is modernly customers from Kunde or kunden
        > I am guessing a typo on einschlahen  einschlagen makes more sense than
        > einschlafen (which is what I wish I could go back and do  :)
        >
        > Cat
        >
        >
        >
        >>________________________________
        >> From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig@...>
        >>To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
        >>Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:21 PM
        >>Subject: [cooking_rumpolt] Kalb 14 - boiled liver dumplings
        >>
        >>
        >> 
        >>Kalb 14. Schlickkrapffen von einer Lungen zu
        >>machen. Nim~ die gesottene Lungen/ vnd hack sie
        >>fein klein/ vnnd reib darvnter ein Parmesankeß/
        >>Weck oder Semmel/ vnd grüne Kräuter/ thu auch
        >>gestossenen Pfeffer darein/ vnd wenn es klein
        >>durcheinander gehackt ist/
        >>
        >>14. To make boiled dumplings (ravioli) from a
        >>lung. Take the boiled lung/ and chop them very
        >>small/ and grate a parmesan cheese with it/ weck
        >>bread or semmel/ and green herbs/ also put ground
        >>pepper in it/ and when it chopped together small/
        >>
        >>so nim~ den Dotter von einem Ey/ vnd vnzerlassene
        >>Meyenbutter/ zerlaß sie/ vn~ sieg es durch ein
        >>Härin Tuch/ vnd thu es darein/ hacks/ so wirdt es
        >>darvon fest/ nim~ Mehl/ vn~ thu darvnter drey
        >>oder vier Eyer/ vnd ein wenig Saltz/ vnd mach ein
        >>Teig darauß/ vn~ mach jhn fest/ daß du jn kanst
        >>mit einem Walger außtreiben/
        >>
        >>then take the yolk of an egg/ and unmelted May
        >>butter/ melt it/ and pour it through a hair
        >>cloth/ and put it in there/ chop it/ then it will
        >>be thick from it/ take flour/ and put three or
        >>four eggs in it/ and a little salt/ and make a
        >>dough from it/ and make it thick/ that you can
        >>drive it out with a rolling pin/
        >>
        >>schlag die Füll darein/ vnd mach Krapffen darauß/
        >>nicht groß/ sonder klein/ vnd wann du es gemacht
        >>hast/ so schneidt es mit einem Rädtlein ab/ Nim~
        >>in einem saubern vberzinten Fischkessel ein gute
        >>Rindtfleischbrüh/ oder ein Hen~enbrüh/ die nicht
        >>versaltzen ist/
        >>
        >>wrap the filling in it/ and make dumplings from
        >>it/ not big/ but small/ and when you have made
        >>them/ then cut it up with a pastry wheel/ In a
        >>clean tinned fish kettle take a good beef broth/
        >>or a chicken broth/ that is not over salted/
        >>
        >>wann sie sehr gesaltzen ist/ so nim~ Wasser
        >>darvnter/ setz es auff Kolen mit dem Kessel/ vnd
        >>wen~ die Brüh seudt/ so wirff ein Krapffen nach
        >>dem andern hinein/ vnd schaw/ daß du sie nit
        >>zerwirffst/ laß sie gar gemach sieden/ daß sie
        >>nicht voneinander fahren/
        >>
        >>if it is very salty/ then take water with it/ set
        >>it on coals in the kettle/ and when the broth
        >>boils/ then throw the dumplings in one after
        >>another/ and see/ that you do not over throw
        >>(throw too hard??)/ let them boil very gently/
        >>that they do not come apart/
        >>
        >>thu darein gantze Muscatenblüht/ vnd grüne
        >>Kräuter/ auch frische Meyenbutter/ vnd laß es
        >>darmit sieden/ vnd versaltz es nicht/ so wirdt es
        >>gut/Vnd du mußt es nicht lang sieden lassen/ nur
        >>ein halbe stundt/ leßt du es lang sieden/ so
        >>wirstu es versiede~/ vnd wirst es nicht können
        >>anrichten.
        >>
        >>put whole mace in it/ and green herbs/ also fresh
        >>May butter/ and let it boil together/ and do not
        >>over salt it/ then it will be good/ And you must
        >>not let them boil long/ only half an hour/ if you
        >>let them too boil long/ then they will over cook/
        >>and you can not serve them.
        >>
        >>Auch vergiß nicht/ wann du die Lunge~ wilt
        >>einschlahen/ so nim~ ein Ey/ vn~ zerklopffs wol/
        >>bestreich mit einem Pensel den Teig darmit/ so
        >>bleibt es fest beyeinander/ wann du es kochst in
        >>der Brüh.
        >>
        >>Also do not forget/ when you want to wrap?? the
        >>lungs/ then take an egg/ and beat it well/ brush
        >>the dough with a feather with it/ then it says
        >>firm together/ when you boil it in the broth.
        >>
        >>Vnnd mach kundtschafft mit dem fleiß/ denn er ist
        >>ein trefflich guter Gesell/ ist vberal/ wer mit
        >>jm kundtschafft haben wil.
        >>
        >>And make kundtschafft?? with the diligence/ for
        >>he is a splendid good journeyman/ is overall/ who
        >>will have kundtschafft?? with him.
        >>
        >>-- Could einschlahen be einschlagen or wrap? By
        >>context it might mean something like "to seal"
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
      • Cat .
        Ah the joy of academia. Yep, computer locks down the Fall 2012 schedule on Wednesday, I am frantically entering classes BUT I dont have all the info from the
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 1, 2012
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          Ah the joy of academia.
          Yep, computer locks down the Fall 2012 schedule on Wednesday, I am frantically entering classes BUT I dont have all the info from the Chair yet!!!!!! and then the faculty have to have time to proof if he/I got their stuff correct, and I have to have time to make any changes or corrections.... 
          GAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

          Gwen soon gonna be a hairless Cat



          >________________________________
          > From: "wheezul@..." <wheezul@...>
          >To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
          >Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2012 8:33 AM
          >Subject: Re: [cooking_rumpolt] Kalb 14 - boiled liver dumplings
          >
          >

          >Gahhh! You too. I am in the nasty throes of fall scheduling too! I'll
          >try to catch up this weekend.
          >
          >Katherine
          >
          >> quick minute before I dive into the fall schedule again (gahhh)
          >>
          >> lung, not liver :)
          >> kundschaft is modernly customers from Kunde or kunden
          >> I am guessing a typo on einschlahen  einschlagen makes more sense than
          >> einschlafen (which is what I wish I could go back and do  :)
          >>
          >> Cat
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>>________________________________
          >>> From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig@...>
          >>>To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
          >>>Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:21 PM
          >>>Subject: [cooking_rumpolt] Kalb 14 - boiled liver dumplings
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> 
          >>>Kalb 14. Schlickkrapffen von einer Lungen zu
          >>>machen. Nim~ die gesottene Lungen/ vnd hack sie
          >>>fein klein/ vnnd reib darvnter ein Parmesankeß/
          >>>Weck oder Semmel/ vnd grüne Kräuter/ thu auch
          >>>gestossenen Pfeffer darein/ vnd wenn es klein
          >>>durcheinander gehackt ist/
          >>>
          >>>14. To make boiled dumplings (ravioli) from a
          >>>lung. Take the boiled lung/ and chop them very
          >>>small/ and grate a parmesan cheese with it/ weck
          >>>bread or semmel/ and green herbs/ also put ground
          >>>pepper in it/ and when it chopped together small/
          >>>
          >>>so nim~ den Dotter von einem Ey/ vnd vnzerlassene
          >>>Meyenbutter/ zerlaß sie/ vn~ sieg es durch ein
          >>>Härin Tuch/ vnd thu es darein/ hacks/ so wirdt es
          >>>darvon fest/ nim~ Mehl/ vn~ thu darvnter drey
          >>>oder vier Eyer/ vnd ein wenig Saltz/ vnd mach ein
          >>>Teig darauß/ vn~ mach jhn fest/ daß du jn kanst
          >>>mit einem Walger außtreiben/
          >>>
          >>>then take the yolk of an egg/ and unmelted May
          >>>butter/ melt it/ and pour it through a hair
          >>>cloth/ and put it in there/ chop it/ then it will
          >>>be thick from it/ take flour/ and put three or
          >>>four eggs in it/ and a little salt/ and make a
          >>>dough from it/ and make it thick/ that you can
          >>>drive it out with a rolling pin/
          >>>
          >>>schlag die Füll darein/ vnd mach Krapffen darauß/
          >>>nicht groß/ sonder klein/ vnd wann du es gemacht
          >>>hast/ so schneidt es mit einem Rädtlein ab/ Nim~
          >>>in einem saubern vberzinten Fischkessel ein gute
          >>>Rindtfleischbrüh/ oder ein Hen~enbrüh/ die nicht
          >>>versaltzen ist/
          >>>
          >>>wrap the filling in it/ and make dumplings from
          >>>it/ not big/ but small/ and when you have made
          >>>them/ then cut it up with a pastry wheel/ In a
          >>>clean tinned fish kettle take a good beef broth/
          >>>or a chicken broth/ that is not over salted/
          >>>
          >>>wann sie sehr gesaltzen ist/ so nim~ Wasser
          >>>darvnter/ setz es auff Kolen mit dem Kessel/ vnd
          >>>wen~ die Brüh seudt/ so wirff ein Krapffen nach
          >>>dem andern hinein/ vnd schaw/ daß du sie nit
          >>>zerwirffst/ laß sie gar gemach sieden/ daß sie
          >>>nicht voneinander fahren/
          >>>
          >>>if it is very salty/ then take water with it/ set
          >>>it on coals in the kettle/ and when the broth
          >>>boils/ then throw the dumplings in one after
          >>>another/ and see/ that you do not over throw
          >>>(throw too hard??)/ let them boil very gently/
          >>>that they do not come apart/
          >>>
          >>>thu darein gantze Muscatenblüht/ vnd grüne
          >>>Kräuter/ auch frische Meyenbutter/ vnd laß es
          >>>darmit sieden/ vnd versaltz es nicht/ so wirdt es
          >>>gut/Vnd du mußt es nicht lang sieden lassen/ nur
          >>>ein halbe stundt/ leßt du es lang sieden/ so
          >>>wirstu es versiede~/ vnd wirst es nicht können
          >>>anrichten.
          >>>
          >>>put whole mace in it/ and green herbs/ also fresh
          >>>May butter/ and let it boil together/ and do not
          >>>over salt it/ then it will be good/ And you must
          >>>not let them boil long/ only half an hour/ if you
          >>>let them too boil long/ then they will over cook/
          >>>and you can not serve them.
          >>>
          >>>Auch vergiß nicht/ wann du die Lunge~ wilt
          >>>einschlahen/ so nim~ ein Ey/ vn~ zerklopffs wol/
          >>>bestreich mit einem Pensel den Teig darmit/ so
          >>>bleibt es fest beyeinander/ wann du es kochst in
          >>>der Brüh.
          >>>
          >>>Also do not forget/ when you want to wrap?? the
          >>>lungs/ then take an egg/ and beat it well/ brush
          >>>the dough with a feather with it/ then it says
          >>>firm together/ when you boil it in the broth.
          >>>
          >>>Vnnd mach kundtschafft mit dem fleiß/ denn er ist
          >>>ein trefflich guter Gesell/ ist vberal/ wer mit
          >>>jm kundtschafft haben wil.
          >>>
          >>>And make kundtschafft?? with the diligence/ for
          >>>he is a splendid good journeyman/ is overall/ who
          >>>will have kundtschafft?? with him.
          >>>
          >>>-- Could einschlahen be einschlagen or wrap? By
          >>>context it might mean something like "to seal"
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>
          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • xina007eu
          Gesell here means more something like fellow , buddy , not journeyman . I m not sure what the passage is supposed to mean. Is he trying to describe
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 1, 2012
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            "Gesell" here means more something like "fellow", "buddy", not "journeyman".
            I'm not sure what the passage is supposed to mean. Is he trying to describe "diligence" as a person, meaning something like "be diligent, it is a good quality to have"?

            "einschlahen" is very probably modern "einschlagen". As with "einmachen", I suspect that Rumpolt uses the word in a broader sense than we would use it today.

            --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, Sharon Palmer <ranvaig@...> wrote:
            >> Vnnd mach kundtschafft mit dem fleiß/ denn er ist
            > ein trefflich guter Gesell/ ist vberal/ wer mit
            > jm kundtschafft haben wil.
            >
            > And make kundtschafft?? with the diligence/ for
            > he is a splendid good journeyman/ is overall/ who
            > will have kundtschafft?? with him.
            >
          • Sharon Palmer
            ... I knew that, but didn t think it fit. ... I don t think it s a typo, because it appears several times. I m out the door, but will look at it further when
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 1, 2012
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              >quick minute before I dive into the fall schedule again (gahhh)
              >
              >
              >kundschaft is modernly customers from Kunde or kunden

              I knew that, but didn't think it fit.

              >I am guessing a typo on einschlahen einschlagen makes more sense
              >than einschlafen (which is what I wish I could go back and do :)
              >
              I don't think it's a typo, because it appears several times. I'm out
              the door, but will look at it further when I get home.

              Ranvaig
            • wheezul@canby.com
              ... Grimm says that the meaning changes through the centuries. I did a backward search in OED to see what/if kund became in English. Sometimes that helps me
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 1, 2012
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                >>quick minute before I dive into the fall schedule again (gahhh)
                >>
                >>
                >>kundschaft is modernly customers from Kunde or kunden
                >

                Grimm says that the meaning changes through the centuries. I did a
                backward search in OED to see what/if kund became in English. Sometimes
                that helps me figure out the older meaning of words. In this case the
                word "couth" descends from kund. It seems like cunning comes from the
                same root (can) as couth as well. Couth can mean known, familiar,
                acquaintances, and late in the game appears as the antonym of uncouth.
                Kunde can mean 'character'. Could be nothin' though.

                Zur Sprache glosses both the verbs schlagen and schlahen with the same
                entry with the singular meaning of "schlachten" from Götze. - Wekcer " so
                schlahe sie [die Erbsen] durch ein Seigephfann oder weiß tuch."

                Oddly this would mean that Rumpolt has 2 kinds of spelling for the same
                word. Perhaps - since we are seeing some other variances (?), Rumpolt had
                a different scribe, typesetter, or perhaps different source they were
                copying? Something to consider in a work of this size.

                Katherine

                > I knew that, but didn't think it fit.
                >
                >>I am guessing a typo on einschlahen einschlagen makes more sense
                >>than einschlafen (which is what I wish I could go back and do :)
                >>
                > I don't think it's a typo, because it appears several times. I'm out
                > the door, but will look at it further when I get home.
                >
                > Ranvaig
                >
              • Sharon Palmer
                ... Yes, Journeyman seems to be a modern meaning. ENHG says Geselle is companion Grimm says Gesell is someone you sleep with and Geselle is derived from
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 2, 2012
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                  Christina said:

                  >"Gesell" here means more something like "fellow", "buddy", not "journeyman".
                  >I'm not sure what the passage is supposed to
                  >mean. Is he trying to describe "diligence" as a
                  >person, meaning something like "be diligent, it
                  >is a good quality to have"?

                  Yes, Journeyman seems to be a modern meaning.
                  ENHG says "Geselle" is companion
                  Grimm says "Gesell" is someone you sleep with
                  and "Geselle" is derived from "saal" or hall, I
                  think the gist is someone that lives in the same
                  household.

                  other passages with "gesell". Perhaps journeyman
                  isn't right, but I don't think "buddy" is either.
                  für einen armen Gesellen/ vnd auch für grosse Herrn.
                  for a poor fellow/ and also for a great lord.

                  so ist es ein gute Suppen vor einen armen Gesellen.
                  like this it is a good soup for a poor fellow.

                  as well as several uses of "Gesellschafft" which I translated as "society"


                  >"einschlahen" is very probably modern
                  >"einschlagen". As with "einmachen", I suspect
                  >that Rumpolt uses the word in a broader sense
                  >than we would use it today.

                  Rumpolt uses "einschlagen" in the narrow meaning
                  of wrap or enclose, usually in dough. As does
                  Welserin. The modern dictionary has enclose as
                  one meaning.

                  ENHG doesn't list einschlagen or einschlahen
                  Grimm lists einschlahen as a form of einschlagen
                  Grimm lists 26 meanings for einschlagen, one of
                  them is to put something in a sack or barrel.


                  Katherine said:

                  >Zur Sprache glosses both the verbs schlagen and schlahen with the same
                  >entry with the singular meaning of "schlachten" from Götze. - Wekcer " so
                  >schlahe sie [die Erbsen] durch ein Seigephfann oder weiß tuch."

                  "schlagen" = hit or beat, is different than
                  "einschlagen" or "schlag ein" = wrap.

                  >
                  >Oddly this would mean that Rumpolt has 2 kinds of spelling for the same
                  >word. Perhaps - since we are seeing some other variances (?), Rumpolt had
                  >a different scribe, typesetter, or perhaps different source they were
                  >copying? Something to consider in a work of this size.

                  Spelling isn't quite standardized yet, more than
                  one spelling is pretty common. But I've seen
                  signs that there was more than one typesetter.
                  In particular, there are words that are spelled
                  always one way in the menus, and always another
                  in the rest of the book. And there also words
                  that are spelled differently on a more or less
                  random basis.

                  Actually the two places that use einschlahen are
                  both in the Kalb section, both seem to mean wrap.
                  I'd call it an alternate spelling.

                  Kalb 14. wann du die Lunge~ wilt einschlahen/ -
                  when you want to wrap?? the lungs/

                  Kalb 25. Ein Kälbern Nierenbraten einzuschlahen in einem RuckenTeig.

                  Ranvaig
                • Cat .
                  I would actually think a poor journeyman (or apprentice) would fit.  They were not paid well, especially when compared to a wealthy Herr Gwen back to fall Cat
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 2, 2012
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                    I would actually think a poor journeyman (or apprentice) would fit.  They were not paid well, especially when compared to a wealthy Herr

                    Gwen back to fall Cat



                    >________________________________
                    > From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig@...>
                    >To: cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com
                    >Sent: Friday, March 2, 2012 9:30 AM
                    >Subject: [cooking_rumpolt] Re: Kalb 14 - boiled liver dumplings
                    >
                    >

                    >Christina said:
                    >
                    >>"Gesell" here means more something like "fellow", "buddy", not "journeyman".
                    >>I'm not sure what the passage is supposed to
                    >>mean. Is he trying to describe "diligence" as a
                    >>person, meaning something like "be diligent, it
                    >>is a good quality to have"?
                    >
                    >Yes, Journeyman seems to be a modern meaning.
                    >ENHG says "Geselle" is companion
                    >Grimm says "Gesell" is someone you sleep with
                    >and "Geselle" is derived from "saal" or hall, I
                    >think the gist is someone that lives in the same
                    >household.
                    >
                    >other passages with "gesell". Perhaps journeyman
                    >isn't right, but I don't think "buddy" is either.
                    >für einen armen Gesellen/ vnd auch für grosse Herrn.
                    >for a poor fellow/ and also for a great lord.
                    >
                    >so ist es ein gute Suppen vor einen armen Gesellen.
                    >like this it is a good soup for a poor fellow.
                    >
                    >as well as several uses of "Gesellschafft" which I translated as "society"
                    >
                    >>"einschlahen" is very probably modern
                    >>"einschlagen". As with "einmachen", I suspect
                    >>that Rumpolt uses the word in a broader sense
                    >>than we would use it today.
                    >
                    >Rumpolt uses "einschlagen" in the narrow meaning
                    >of wrap or enclose, usually in dough. As does
                    >Welserin. The modern dictionary has enclose as
                    >one meaning.
                    >
                    >ENHG doesn't list einschlagen or einschlahen
                    >Grimm lists einschlahen as a form of einschlagen
                    >Grimm lists 26 meanings for einschlagen, one of
                    >them is to put something in a sack or barrel.
                    >
                    >Katherine said:
                    >
                    >>Zur Sprache glosses both the verbs schlagen and schlahen with the same
                    >>entry with the singular meaning of "schlachten" from Götze. - Wekcer " so
                    >>schlahe sie [die Erbsen] durch ein Seigephfann oder weiß tuch."
                    >
                    >"schlagen" = hit or beat, is different than
                    >"einschlagen" or "schlag ein" = wrap.
                    >
                    >>
                    >>Oddly this would mean that Rumpolt has 2 kinds of spelling for the same
                    >>word. Perhaps - since we are seeing some other variances (?), Rumpolt had
                    >>a different scribe, typesetter, or perhaps different source they were
                    >>copying? Something to consider in a work of this size.
                    >
                    >Spelling isn't quite standardized yet, more than
                    >one spelling is pretty common. But I've seen
                    >signs that there was more than one typesetter.
                    >In particular, there are words that are spelled
                    >always one way in the menus, and always another
                    >in the rest of the book. And there also words
                    >that are spelled differently on a more or less
                    >random basis.
                    >
                    >Actually the two places that use einschlahen are
                    >both in the Kalb section, both seem to mean wrap.
                    >I'd call it an alternate spelling.
                    >
                    >Kalb 14. wann du die Lunge~ wilt einschlahen/ -
                    >when you want to wrap?? the lungs/
                    >
                    >Kalb 25. Ein Kälbern Nierenbraten einzuschlahen in einem RuckenTeig.
                    >
                    >Ranvaig
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Sharon Palmer
                    ... Saying poor journeyman certainly is more poetic. Ranvaig
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 2, 2012
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                      >I would actually think a poor journeyman (or apprentice) would fit.
                      > They were not paid well, especially when compared to a wealthy Herr

                      Saying "poor journeyman" certainly is more poetic.

                      Ranvaig
                    • wheezul@canby.com
                      ... To me both meanings imply a type of compression and that s how I would see the words as related. Not to beat a dead horse ;-) Katherine
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 3, 2012
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                        >
                        > Katherine said:
                        >
                        >>Zur Sprache glosses both the verbs schlagen and schlahen with the same
                        >>entry with the singular meaning of "schlachten" from Götze. - Wekcer " so
                        >>schlahe sie [die Erbsen] durch ein Seigephfann oder weiß tuch."
                        >
                        > "schlagen" = hit or beat, is different than
                        > "einschlagen" or "schlag ein" = wrap.
                        > Ranvaig

                        To me both meanings imply a type of compression and that's how I would see
                        the words as related. Not to "beat" a dead horse ;-)

                        Katherine
                      • Sharon Palmer
                        ... Schlagen is used in MANY ways in Rumpolt, but he serves horse with pepper sauce :) -- einschlagen is putting something in dough, sometimes even without the
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 3, 2012
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                          >To me both meanings imply a type of compression and that's how I would see
                          >the words as related. Not to "beat" a dead horse ;-)
                          >

                          Schlagen is used in MANY ways in Rumpolt, but he
                          serves horse with pepper sauce :)

                          -- einschlagen is putting something in dough, sometimes even without the "ein"
                          (here is one of those spelling differences.. its
                          usually eynschlagen, but there are a few
                          einschlagens)
                          wen~ du es wilt in Teig einschlagen/... vnd schlags darnach in Rückenteig/
                          der in einen Ruckenteig eynschlagen/
                          schlag jhn darnach ein in ein RuckenTeig/
                          schlag es in diesen Teig eyn/
                          schlag den Teig darüber/
                          schlag die Füll darein/
                          vnd thu die Füll auff den Teig/ vnd schlag das vntertheil hinüber/
                          Mach ein groben Teig/ ... schlag das Fleisch darvnter/ mach die Pasteten auff/
                          Nim~ die Förderkeul/ vnd schlag sie in einen Ruckenteig/
                          mach ein Teig damit an/ ... vn~ schlag dz Wildpret darein
                          schlag die Zungen darein/ vnd mach Krapffen darauß/
                          vnd in ein Pasteten eingeschlagen/
                          schlag den Manscho Blancko darein/ vnd mach krapffen darauß/
                          Nim~ von dem Manscho Blancko/ schlags in den Teig/ vnnd mach Krapffen darauß/
                          Jn eine Pasteten von Ruckenteig/ ...eyngeschlagen/
                          treib darnach den Teig auß/ vnd schlag das Gehack darein/ mach Krapffen darauß/
                          vnnd schlag es in den Teig/ den du hast außgetrieben/
                          vnd wenn du jn in den Ruckenteig wilt eynschlagen/
                          so treib es mit einem Walger wider auß/ so werden
                          die Bletter noch dünner/ leg darnach das Gehack
                          darein/ vnnd schlags vbereinander/
                          schlags in einen Teig/ der dünn außgetrieben/ vnd
                          fein durchsichtig ist/ mach Krapffen darauß/
                          mach ein Teig mit lautern Eyern/ arbeit jhn wol/
                          treib jhn fein dünn auß/ wie ein Schleyer/ daß er
                          fein durchsichtig ist/ schlag die Füll darein/
                          Schlag Manscho Blancko in ein sollchen Teig/
                          schlags in einen Teig ein/
                          Hasen Pasteten kalt in einem Ruckenteig eingeschlagen.
                          vnd in ein weissen Teig eingeschlagen

                          -- sometimes it still had to be closed
                          schlags in einen groben Teig/ machs zu/
                          schlags mit Butter in ein Ruckenteig vnd frischer Salbei/ machs zu/
                          schlag darnach das ander Blat vber die Epffel/ machs zu/

                          -- wrapping in caulfat
                          Nimm ein Netz von einem Hammel/ schlag es darein/
                          schlag sie in das Netz/ vnnd mach kleine Würst darauß/
                          schlags darnach vber ein Geiß Netz/ so wirstu gute Würst haben
                          schlag sie in das Netz/ vnd mach Würst darauß/
                          nim~ vom Schwein das Netz/ ...schlag es fein eyn/ vnd mach ein Wurst darauß.
                          legs in ein Netz/ vn~ schlags fein darüber/

                          -- wrapping in crepes
                          vnnd mach dünne Pfantzel darauß/ zehen oder
                          zwölf/ die gar dünn seind wie ein Papier. Nim~
                          die Füll von dem Salm/ die du hast zugericht/ vnd
                          thu sie in das Pfantzel/ schlags fein länglich
                          vbereinander wie Würst.
                          mach dünne Pfantzel/ vnnd schlag die Füll darein/ vnnd mach Würst darauß/
                          mach dünne Pfanzel/ schlag die Füll/ ... / darüber/ vnnd mach Würst darauß/
                          nim~ die Füll von Krebßen/ vnd schlag sie in die
                          Pfantzel/ vnnd mach Würst darauß

                          -- wrap in something else
                          so vmbschlag es mit einem Tuch/
                          schlag den Hecht mit Limonen/ die breit geschnitten/ vnd mit Butter/ ein/

                          -- enclose in a barrel, or to pound it closed
                          vnd schlags eyn in Fesser/
                          schlags in ein Faß eyn/
                          so sie eyn/ so kanstu sie jar vn~ tag behalten/
                          vnd schlag das Feßlein zu/ so kanstu es ein halb jar oder lenger ligen lassen/
                          schüt jn in das Faß/ vnd schlage das Faß zu/

                          -- schlagen can be cutting something apart
                          so schlag die Hinderkeul davon/
                          Wenn die Köpff gesotten/ vnd voneinander geschlagen seyn/

                          -- beating eggs or batter (he usually uses rür when no eggs involved)
                          so bestreich den Teig mit einem geschlagenen Ey/ das wol geschlagen ist
                          vnd schlag ein Ey oder zwey durcheinander/
                          Nim~ Eyer vnnd schlag sie durcheinander/
                          vnd schlag etliche Eyer durcheinander/
                          Nim~ Eyer/ vnd schlag sie wol durcheinander/
                          Nim~ frische Eyer/ schlag gelb vnd weiß durcheinander/
                          Nim~ Eyer/ vnnd ein wenig Saffran/ schlags wol durcheinander/
                          vnd schlag jn wol mit einem höltzern Löffel/
                          nimb weiß von Eiern/ vnd Rosenwasser/ schlags
                          durcheinander/ so wirdt es ein Faum gewinnen/
                          schlag ein Ey wol/ vnd bestreich es damit/

                          -- while auffschlagen is breaking open the egg
                          vnd schlag Eyer auff/
                          schlag etliche Eyer auff/
                          schlag darnach Eyer auff/ vnd rür sie darvnter/
                          Schlag Eyer auff/ nim~ sie in ein Pfannen/ vnd mach Pfantzel darauß/
                          Nim~ Eyer/ schlag sie auff/
                          nim~ alsdenn Eyer/ die auffgeschlagen seyn/

                          -- break open then beat
                          so schlag Eyer auff/ vnd schlag sie durcheinander
                          schlag etliche Eyer auff/ vnnd schlags wol durcheinander/
                          nim~ darnach ein Hennen Ey oder drey/ ...schlags
                          auff in eine Schüssel/ vnd zerklopffs wol
                          durcheinander/
                          Schlag Eyer auff/ schlag sie wol durcheinander/

                          -- I translated these as beat, but I wonder if they should also be break open
                          schlag Eyr darein/
                          so schlag ein Ey sechs oder siben darein/
                          Nimm saure Milch/ schlag darein Eierdotter/
                          schlag etliche Eyer darein/
                          vnnd schlag gantze Eyer/ die fein frisch seyn/
                          darein/ setz wider auff heisse Eschen/ thu ein
                          Deck darauff/
                          vnd schlag viel Eyer darvnter/ rürs wol damit ab/
                          Nimm warme Milch/ vnd schlag Eier darvnter/
                          schlag drei oder vier Eier darein/ vnd rür jn wol glat an/

                          -- zerschlag - ENHG has to destroy, break in pieces,
                          zerschlag den Krug/
                          zerschlag die Kruglein vnd Töpflein/ daß dz Gebacken fein gantz bleibt.

                          -- but here it means more like beat well.
                          so nim~ Eyer/ vnnd zerschlag sie wol/
                          vnd frische Eyer/ das weiß darvon zerschlag wol/
                          Schlag Eier auff/ zerschlag sie wol mit Mehl/

                          -- or bruise
                          zerschlage die Wurtzel/

                          -- vberschlagen - to turn over?
                          wenns gebacken ist/ so thu es herauß/ vnd laß ein weil vberschlagen/
                          vnd scheubs wider in Ofen/ der uberschlagen ist/
                          kehrs offt umb auff beiden seiten/
                          Nimm Wasser vnd Zucker/ vnd laß miteinander auff
                          sieden/ vnd laß ein wenig vberschlagen.

                          -- These are about a syrup - perhaps means lukewarm.
                          vnd wenns hat ein wenig vberschlagen/
                          wenn der Sirup vberschlagen hat.

                          -- putting holes in something
                          nim~ Instrument/ die fein geschmedig gemacht von
                          Eysen/ ... daß auch ein drey oder vier Löcher
                          darein geschlagen seind.

                          -- or pounding or beating
                          Nim~ den Haußen Rogen ...vnd schlag jn wol mit
                          einem höltzern Löffel/...vnd wenn er wol
                          zerstossen/
                          schlag jn ein stundt drey oder vier mit einem
                          höltzern Löffel/ daß er wol voneinander gestossen
                          wirt/

                          -- putting something through a sieve or strainer
                          schlag die Eier durch ein Härin Tuch

                          -- and a strainer is called a Durchschlag/
                          schütt es auff ein Durchschlag/
                          schütt sie auff ein Durchschlag oder Sib/
                          so schütt sie auff ein Durchschlag/ daß die Brüh durchseiget/
                          dz sie kön~en durch ein Durchschlag lauffen/
                          thu sie auff ein Durchschlag/ vnnd wasch sie sauber auß

                          -- and also
                          Ehe du den Hecht einschlegst in Ruckenteig/
                          ehe du es eynschlegst/
                          so schlegt man sie in einen Rucken Teig/

                          -- and fürschlagen - perhaps emphasizes or
                          balances, we discussed but didn't find anything
                          definitive.
                          so schlegt der Pfeffer fein für dem Saltz.
                          daß der Essig fein fürschlegt/
                          denn der Essig schlegt für dem Zucker vor
                          vnd ein wenig süß/ daß der Essig fürschlegt

                          --and hinschlagen
                          sondern nur da der Rauch hinschlegt.

                          -- and the alternative spelling
                          wann du die Lunge~ wilt einschlahen/
                          Ein Kälbern Nierenbraten einzuschlahen in einem RuckenTeig.

                          Ranvaig
                        • xina007eu
                          Gesellschaft can mean society, but also company, companionship, group of people. About Gesellen and journeymen : When a boy started learning a trade, he
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 5, 2012
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                            Gesellschaft can mean society, but also company, companionship, group of people.

                            About "Gesellen" and "journeymen":
                            When a boy started learning a trade, he started out as a "Lehrling" (apprentice). After he had served his apprenticeship, he could pass an exam ("Gesellenprüfung") and usually make an item, called a "Gesellenstück", as part of the exam. If he passed the exam, he would be be considered a "Geselle". Gesellen usually lived in their masters' households. After being a Geselle for a certain time, he could then pass the master's exam ("Meisterprüfung"), for which he would make another item, his "Meisterstück" (masterpiece). This system still exists in Germany for many trades.
                            In many trades, Gesellen would customarily travel around and work for / live with different masters. They are called "wandernde Gesellen", and the activity of travelling around is called "auf der Walz sein". For some trades, this custom still exists in modern Germany, although it is not compulsory any more. They wear a distinctive old-fashioned-looking outfit, see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geselle for a photo. These "wandernde Gesellen" are probably the closest thing to a "journeyman".

                            --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, Sharon Palmer <ranvaig@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Christina said:
                            >
                            > >"Gesell" here means more something like "fellow", "buddy", not "journeyman".
                            > >I'm not sure what the passage is supposed to
                            > >mean. Is he trying to describe "diligence" as a
                            > >person, meaning something like "be diligent, it
                            > >is a good quality to have"?
                            >
                            > Yes, Journeyman seems to be a modern meaning.
                            > ENHG says "Geselle" is companion
                            > Grimm says "Gesell" is someone you sleep with
                            > and "Geselle" is derived from "saal" or hall, I
                            > think the gist is someone that lives in the same
                            > household.
                            >
                            > other passages with "gesell". Perhaps journeyman
                            > isn't right, but I don't think "buddy" is either.
                            > für einen armen Gesellen/ vnd auch für grosse Herrn.
                            > for a poor fellow/ and also for a great lord.
                            >
                            > so ist es ein gute Suppen vor einen armen Gesellen.
                            > like this it is a good soup for a poor fellow.
                            >
                            > as well as several uses of "Gesellschafft" which I translated as "society"
                            >
                            >
                            > >"einschlahen" is very probably modern
                            > >"einschlagen". As with "einmachen", I suspect
                            > >that Rumpolt uses the word in a broader sense
                            > >than we would use it today.
                            >
                            > Rumpolt uses "einschlagen" in the narrow meaning
                            > of wrap or enclose, usually in dough. As does
                            > Welserin. The modern dictionary has enclose as
                            > one meaning.
                            >
                            > ENHG doesn't list einschlagen or einschlahen
                            > Grimm lists einschlahen as a form of einschlagen
                            > Grimm lists 26 meanings for einschlagen, one of
                            > them is to put something in a sack or barrel.
                            >
                            >
                            > Katherine said:
                            >
                            > >Zur Sprache glosses both the verbs schlagen and schlahen with the same
                            > >entry with the singular meaning of "schlachten" from Götze. - Wekcer " so
                            > >schlahe sie [die Erbsen] durch ein Seigephfann oder weiß tuch."
                            >
                            > "schlagen" = hit or beat, is different than
                            > "einschlagen" or "schlag ein" = wrap.
                            >
                            > >
                            > >Oddly this would mean that Rumpolt has 2 kinds of spelling for the same
                            > >word. Perhaps - since we are seeing some other variances (?), Rumpolt had
                            > >a different scribe, typesetter, or perhaps different source they were
                            > >copying? Something to consider in a work of this size.
                            >
                            > Spelling isn't quite standardized yet, more than
                            > one spelling is pretty common. But I've seen
                            > signs that there was more than one typesetter.
                            > In particular, there are words that are spelled
                            > always one way in the menus, and always another
                            > in the rest of the book. And there also words
                            > that are spelled differently on a more or less
                            > random basis.
                            >
                            > Actually the two places that use einschlahen are
                            > both in the Kalb section, both seem to mean wrap.
                            > I'd call it an alternate spelling.
                            >
                            > Kalb 14. wann du die Lunge~ wilt einschlahen/ -
                            > when you want to wrap?? the lungs/
                            >
                            > Kalb 25. Ein Kälbern Nierenbraten einzuschlahen in einem RuckenTeig.
                            >
                            > Ranvaig
                            >
                          • wheezul@canby.com
                            ... I wondered at the form gesellen - would that imply a plural? Maybe this is shorthand or a period form of gesellschaft - a company or group of people like
                            Message 13 of 16 , Mar 5, 2012
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                              > Gesellschaft can mean society, but also company, companionship, group of
                              > people.
                              >
                              > About "Gesellen" and "journeymen":
                              > When a boy started learning a trade, he started out as a "Lehrling"
                              > (apprentice). After he had served his apprenticeship, he could pass an
                              > exam ("Gesellenprüfung") and usually make an item, called a
                              > "Gesellenstück", as part of the exam. If he passed the exam, he would be
                              > be considered a "Geselle". Gesellen usually lived in their masters'
                              > households. After being a Geselle for a certain time, he could then pass
                              > the master's exam ("Meisterprüfung"), for which he would make another
                              > item, his "Meisterstück" (masterpiece). This system still exists in
                              > Germany for many trades.
                              > In many trades, Gesellen would customarily travel around and work for /
                              > live with different masters. They are called "wandernde Gesellen", and the
                              > activity of travelling around is called "auf der Walz sein". For some
                              > trades, this custom still exists in modern Germany, although it is not
                              > compulsory any more. They wear a distinctive old-fashioned-looking outfit,
                              > see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geselle for a photo. These "wandernde
                              > Gesellen" are probably the closest thing to a "journeyman".
                              >

                              I wondered at the form gesellen - would that imply a plural? Maybe this
                              is shorthand or a period form of gesellschaft - a company or group of
                              people like guests - implying that this is a good soup for a poor
                              gathering? It doesnt' really change the sense of the meaning one way or
                              another though.

                              Katherine
                            • Sharon Palmer
                              These were from the rather difficult prose in the forward. . etwz fruchtbarlichs bey jnen zu schaffen/ vn~ also vmb die gantz Menschliche Gesellschafft/ sich
                              Message 14 of 16 , Mar 5, 2012
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                                These were from the rather difficult prose in the forward.
                                .
                                etwz fruchtbarlichs bey jnen zu schaffen/ vn~
                                also vmb die gantz Menschliche Gesellschafft/
                                sich wol zu verdienen vnterstanden haben/
                                besonders fürnemmes Lob/ vnnd zwar nicht
                                vnbillich/ zugeschrieben.

                                to create with them/ and thus around the whole
                                human society/ you will have earned
                                understanding/ particularly nobles praise/ and
                                that not unfairly/ attributed.

                                Jn betrachtung dessen/ daß nemlich dz Menschlich
                                Geschlecht erstlich vn~ für nemlich zu erkenntnuß
                                Gottes/ seines Schöpffers wesens vnnd willens/
                                demnach zu vbung der Tugendt/ Zucht vnnd
                                Ehrbarkeit/ vnnd erhaltung Bürgerlicher
                                Gesellschafft/ im anfang von Gott erschaffen/

                                In contemplation whose/ that namely the human
                                race first and for namely towards God's
                                knowledge/ his Creator character and will/ thus
                                to practise the virtue/ discipline and
                                respectability/ and preservation of common
                                society/ in the beginning created by God/

                                Sharon


                                >Gesellschaft can mean society, but also company,
                                >companionship, group of people.
                                >
                                > > as well as several uses of "Gesellschafft" which I translated as "society"
                              • xina007eu
                                Yes, Gesellen is plural. 1 Geselle - 2 Gesellen. However, -en is also the accusative case singular ending: für einen Gesellen - for a fellow.
                                Message 15 of 16 , Mar 6, 2012
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                                  Yes, Gesellen is plural. 1 Geselle - 2 Gesellen. However, -en is also the accusative case singular ending: für einen Gesellen - for a fellow.

                                  --- In cooking_rumpolt@yahoogroups.com, wheezul@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I wondered at the form gesellen - would that imply a plural? Maybe this
                                  > is shorthand or a period form of gesellschaft - a company or group of
                                  > people like guests - implying that this is a good soup for a poor
                                  > gathering? It doesnt' really change the sense of the meaning one way or
                                  > another though.
                                  >
                                  > Katherine
                                  >
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