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RCP 303 (limiting regular season points to 4800, unlimited meets)

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  • vincent_jeff
    While the goal of increasing interest and participation is good (and I can t say I have a good solution), I don t like the particulars of this proposal. For
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 10, 2004
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      While the goal of increasing interest and participation is good (and
      I can't say I have a good solution), I don't like the particulars of
      this proposal. For me, the idea of not rewarding fliers for their
      accomplishments (withholding points beyond 4800) goes against the
      grain of what we are trying to do. You fly it, you earn it, you
      should get to keep all of it.

      But wait, you say, what about multi-round flying and maxes? Isn't
      that an established case of limiting and withholding scores? Well,
      yes. But*, a very important but, is that it is done in an arena
      where every flight of a finite number of flights counts.

      One thing that slipped by me on the first few reads of this proposal
      was the possibilities offered by removing the 12 CF limit for
      individuals, teams, and sections.

      First, the limit isn't 4800 points scored in a finite number of
      meets, but as many as you can manage. So even the most mediocre
      flier can pile up 4800 points and be a "contender", if they are
      willing to fly enough meets. (It's ironic, as well, that one of the
      ideas behind a CF limit is that a contestant may have only so many
      meets available and that a finite CF limit levels the playing field).

      Second, since there is no CF limit for sections, they are free to fly
      as frequently as they desire. (Weekly section meets, anyone? :) And
      once you max out as an individual, start flying a team, and another
      team, and another... The section championship will become (even
      more) of an endurance test than a performance test.

      Finally, I think giving fewer awards (not recognizing the NARAM
      champion as it is likely he will also be the National champion)
      removes one more incentive for fliers who may want to fly NARAM
      seriously but not have to take on a full season (be it 4 regionals
      today or 2-3 by this proposal).

      -- Jeff

      * - Not to mention that there are practical reasons for multi-round
      and maxes, such as rewarding consistency and weather, field, and
      timing limitations.
    • Steve Foster
      I basically agree with Jeff s statements on this one, I had some interest in it until I got to the point where one could enter unlimited events, that makes the
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 10, 2004
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        I basically agree with Jeff's statements on this one, I had some interest in it until I got to the point where one could enter unlimited events, that makes the events and points you earn during the year almost meaningless. I think a better "fix" would be to make the NARAM points more valuable. This would make sure the points you earned would be kept in some proportional range but let you compete head-to-head with the competition with the most points at stake. Right now rule 6.3.5 allows the National Contest Board to use 8 as a CF but all the NARAM's I've been to (Last 6) use the other formula which usually sets the contest factor near 5.5. I think a CF of around 10 for NARAM would be about right. (Just my opinion, and based on the number of events NARAM has had in the last 6 years.)

        Steve



        vincent_jeff <jvincent@...> wrote:
        While the goal of increasing interest and participation is good (and
        I can't say I have a good solution), I don't like the particulars of
        this proposal. For me, the idea of not rewarding fliers for their
        accomplishments (withholding points beyond 4800) goes against the
        grain of what we are trying to do. You fly it, you earn it, you
        should get to keep all of it.

        But wait, you say, what about multi-round flying and maxes? Isn't
        that an established case of limiting and withholding scores? Well,
        yes. But*, a very important but, is that it is done in an arena
        where every flight of a finite number of flights counts.

        One thing that slipped by me on the first few reads of this proposal
        was the possibilities offered by removing the 12 CF limit for
        individuals, teams, and sections.

        First, the limit isn't 4800 points scored in a finite number of
        meets, but as many as you can manage. So even the most mediocre
        flier can pile up 4800 points and be a "contender", if they are
        willing to fly enough meets. (It's ironic, as well, that one of the
        ideas behind a CF limit is that a contestant may have only so many
        meets available and that a finite CF limit levels the playing field).

        Second, since there is no CF limit for sections, they are free to fly
        as frequently as they desire. (Weekly section meets, anyone? :) And
        once you max out as an individual, start flying a team, and another
        team, and another... The section championship will become (even
        more) of an endurance test than a performance test.

        Finally, I think giving fewer awards (not recognizing the NARAM
        champion as it is likely he will also be the National champion)
        removes one more incentive for fliers who may want to fly NARAM
        seriously but not have to take on a full season (be it 4 regionals
        today or 2-3 by this proposal).

        -- Jeff

        * - Not to mention that there are practical reasons for multi-round
        and maxes, such as rewarding consistency and weather, field, and
        timing limitations.




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      • Dan Wolf
        The concept has some merit, but this implementation is not the best. John DeMar and I have talked about submitting a similar proposal for years. The
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 11, 2004
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          The concept has some merit, but this implementation is not the best. John
          DeMar and I have talked about submitting a similar proposal for years. The
          question is are do some people give up on NAR comp or are turned off by NAR
          comp because of the ability of contestants in some parts of the country to
          rack up points against inferior or less competition and such that for others
          to vie for the national championship they would have to spend considerable
          sums of money to travel great distances to fly a full contest year. I think
          the question is a valid one, especially for A and B division. It is
          possible that in some areas, an aspiring competitor can get a full 12 WFs in
          without having to drive more than 2 hours to a launch. The answer for some
          has been to host their own meets. But this can be a problem if there is no
          one else interested, and what if you are an A/B divisioner living in Utah or
          Colorado? Yes, this problem has been there since the early years of NAR
          comp. There's also the counter to that that those who live in the
          mid-atlantic can get their 12 WFs in easier, but at the cost of much stiffer
          competition. It could be argued that the NARHAMs and NOVAAR A and B
          divisioners face stiffer competition year in and year out than those from
          WOOSH. With the stiffer competition at NARAM, a big lead can be difficult
          to overcome. Winning the NARAM meet SEEMS to be a small consolation in many
          eyes.

          Where I have the problem is not keeping the 12 WF limit. Other than that I
          would probably vote for this RCP. I see it as a compromise between the
          status quo and those who favor making NARAM a winner take all meet (no
          pre-NARAM points). The last time that proposal was put up to vote, there
          were three votes for it from the Wolf house but it was soundly defeated.
          The most common reason given against the Make NARAM a Shootout rule was it
          woud kill all of the other contests throughout the year. So, like the
          present return rule, I see having some type of cap a compromise worth
          considering. I'm surprised so many here are against it. I find it
          discouraging every year to see a handful of people in most divisions so far
          ahead of everyone else and I think other would be competitors do too.

          Perhaps instead, we should consider changing the NARAM WF formula from
          making the potential points earned at NARAM equal to those that can be
          earned during the contest year to a 2/3 at NARAM - 1/3 contest year formula.

          Dan



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Steve Foster" <steve72814@...>
          To: <contestRoc@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:30 PM
          Subject: Re: [contestRoc] RCP 303 (limiting regular season points to 4800,
          unlimited meets)



          I basically agree with Jeff's statements on this one, I had some interest in
          it until I got to the point where one could enter unlimited events, that
          makes the events and points you earn during the year almost meaningless. I
          think a better "fix" would be to make the NARAM points more valuable. This
          would make sure the points you earned would be kept in some proportional
          range but let you compete head-to-head with the competition with the most
          points at stake. Right now rule 6.3.5 allows the National Contest Board to
          use 8 as a CF but all the NARAM's I've been to (Last 6) use the other
          formula which usually sets the contest factor near 5.5. I think a CF of
          around 10 for NARAM would be about right. (Just my opinion, and based on the
          number of events NARAM has had in the last 6 years.)

          Steve



          vincent_jeff <jvincent@...> wrote:
          While the goal of increasing interest and participation is good (and
          I can't say I have a good solution), I don't like the particulars of
          this proposal. For me, the idea of not rewarding fliers for their
          accomplishments (withholding points beyond 4800) goes against the
          grain of what we are trying to do. You fly it, you earn it, you
          should get to keep all of it.

          But wait, you say, what about multi-round flying and maxes? Isn't
          that an established case of limiting and withholding scores? Well,
          yes. But*, a very important but, is that it is done in an arena
          where every flight of a finite number of flights counts.

          One thing that slipped by me on the first few reads of this proposal
          was the possibilities offered by removing the 12 CF limit for
          individuals, teams, and sections.

          First, the limit isn't 4800 points scored in a finite number of
          meets, but as many as you can manage. So even the most mediocre
          flier can pile up 4800 points and be a "contender", if they are
          willing to fly enough meets. (It's ironic, as well, that one of the
          ideas behind a CF limit is that a contestant may have only so many
          meets available and that a finite CF limit levels the playing field).

          Second, since there is no CF limit for sections, they are free to fly
          as frequently as they desire. (Weekly section meets, anyone? :) And
          once you max out as an individual, start flying a team, and another
          team, and another... The section championship will become (even
          more) of an endurance test than a performance test.

          Finally, I think giving fewer awards (not recognizing the NARAM
          champion as it is likely he will also be the National champion)
          removes one more incentive for fliers who may want to fly NARAM
          seriously but not have to take on a full season (be it 4 regionals
          today or 2-3 by this proposal).

          -- Jeff

          * - Not to mention that there are practical reasons for multi-round
          and maxes, such as rewarding consistency and weather, field, and
          timing limitations.




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        • vincent_jeff
          ... One problem is that each division is different. For A & B (with lower participation) and Team to a degree, the current formulation is a pretty good
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 11, 2004
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            --- In contestRoc@yahoogroups.com, Steve Foster <steve72814@y...>
            wrote:
            > I basically agree with Jeff's statements on this one,
            >I had some interest in it until I got to the point where
            >one could enter unlimited events, that makes the events
            >and points you earn during the year almost meaningless.
            >I think a better "fix" would be to make the NARAM points
            >more valuable. This would make sure the points you earned
            >would be kept in some proportional range but let you compete
            >head-to-head with the competition with the most points at
            >stake. Right now rule 6.3.5 allows the National Contest
            >Board to use 8 as a CF but all the NARAM's I've been to
            >(Last 6) use the other formula which usually sets the
            >contest factor near 5.5. I think a CF of around 10 for
            >NARAM would be about right. (Just my opinion, and based
            >on the number of events NARAM has had in the last 6 years.)

            One problem is that each division is different. For A & B (with
            lower participation) and Team to a degree, the current formulation is
            a pretty good balance between regular season and NARAM points. It
            falls apart with C division, where the high number of NARAM
            participants make the NARAM points much scarcer than the regular
            season points and the regular season points going into NARAM have a
            greater importance. Thus far, the Contest Board has been reluctant
            to try to come up with a separate equation for NARAM point levels for
            each division (maybe that's the RCP submission for the next cycle
            that we should be discussing :).

            -- Jeff

            PS - Not you Steve, but I think this discussion would be better if we
            stuck to the merits of the RCPs, not waging personal attacks and
            attributing hypothetical motivations. :|
          • John Buckley
            I think that the intent of the Pink book rules on this is that the WF applied at NARAM is calculated to give equal weight to points at NARAM and points
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 11, 2004
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              I think that the intent of the Pink book rules on this is that the
              WF applied at NARAM is calculated to give equal weight to points at NARAM
              and points available during the competition year. Thus NARAM is equally
              weighted with points obtained during the contest year. Thus the champion
              needs to be someone who can excel in both places, NARAM, AND regional
              competition. Giving increased weighting to the NARAM part of the equation
              is not necessary. There is already a trophy for the NARAM meet champion.

              John Buckley

              "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In
              practice, however, there is".

              Jan van de Snepscheut

              On Wed, 10 Mar 2004, Steve Foster wrote:

              > I basically agree with Jeff's statements on this one, I had some interest in it until I got to the point where one could enter unlimited events, that makes the events and points you earn during the year almost meaningless. I think a better "fix" would be to make the NARAM points more valuable. This would make sure the points you earned would be kept in some proportional range but let you compete head-to-head with the competition with the most points at stake. Right now rule 6.3.5 allows the National Contest Board to use 8 as a CF but all the NARAM's I've been to (Last 6) use the other formula which usually sets the contest factor near 5.5. I think a CF of around 10 for NARAM would be about right. (Just my opinion, and based on the number of events NARAM has had in the last 6 years.)
              >
              > Steve
              >
              >
              >
              > vincent_jeff <jvincent@...> wrote:
              > While the goal of increasing interest and participation is good (and
              > I can't say I have a good solution), I don't like the particulars of
              > this proposal. For me, the idea of not rewarding fliers for their
              > accomplishments (withholding points beyond 4800) goes against the
              > grain of what we are trying to do. You fly it, you earn it, you
              > should get to keep all of it.
              >
              > But wait, you say, what about multi-round flying and maxes? Isn't
              > that an established case of limiting and withholding scores? Well,
              > yes. But*, a very important but, is that it is done in an arena
              > where every flight of a finite number of flights counts.
              >
              > One thing that slipped by me on the first few reads of this proposal
              > was the possibilities offered by removing the 12 CF limit for
              > individuals, teams, and sections.
              >
              > First, the limit isn't 4800 points scored in a finite number of
              > meets, but as many as you can manage. So even the most mediocre
              > flier can pile up 4800 points and be a "contender", if they are
              > willing to fly enough meets. (It's ironic, as well, that one of the
              > ideas behind a CF limit is that a contestant may have only so many
              > meets available and that a finite CF limit levels the playing field).
              >
              > Second, since there is no CF limit for sections, they are free to fly
              > as frequently as they desire. (Weekly section meets, anyone? :) And
              > once you max out as an individual, start flying a team, and another
              > team, and another... The section championship will become (even
              > more) of an endurance test than a performance test.
              >
              > Finally, I think giving fewer awards (not recognizing the NARAM
              > champion as it is likely he will also be the National champion)
              > removes one more incentive for fliers who may want to fly NARAM
              > seriously but not have to take on a full season (be it 4 regionals
              > today or 2-3 by this proposal).
              >
              > -- Jeff
              >
              > * - Not to mention that there are practical reasons for multi-round
              > and maxes, such as rewarding consistency and weather, field, and
              > timing limitations.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
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              >
              > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contestRoc/
              >
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              > contestRoc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
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              > Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
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            • John Buckley
              Yes, something like this might be a reasonable compromise I suppose. Although for me, it would probably mean that my chances of ever winning a national
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 11, 2004
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                Yes, something like this might be a reasonable compromise I suppose.
                Although for me, it would probably mean that my chances of ever winning a
                national championship would diminish, since I usually don't do well at
                NARAM. I very seldom win more than one trophy at NARAM and its rarely a
                first place one at that. Oh well, I guess that just means I ought to quit
                whining and start working on improving my flying skills.

                John "needs some cheese with his whine" Buckley

                "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In
                practice, however, there is".

                Jan van de Snepscheut

                On Thu, 11 Mar 2004, Dan Wolf wrote:

                >
                > Perhaps instead, we should consider changing the NARAM WF formula from
                > making the potential points earned at NARAM equal to those that can be
                > earned during the contest year to a 2/3 at NARAM - 1/3 contest year formula.
                >
                > Dan
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Steve Foster" <steve72814@...>
                > To: <contestRoc@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:30 PM
                > Subject: Re: [contestRoc] RCP 303 (limiting regular season points to 4800,
                > unlimited meets)
                >
                >
                >
                > I basically agree with Jeff's statements on this one, I had some interest in
                > it until I got to the point where one could enter unlimited events, that
                > makes the events and points you earn during the year almost meaningless. I
                > think a better "fix" would be to make the NARAM points more valuable. This
                > would make sure the points you earned would be kept in some proportional
                > range but let you compete head-to-head with the competition with the most
                > points at stake. Right now rule 6.3.5 allows the National Contest Board to
                > use 8 as a CF but all the NARAM's I've been to (Last 6) use the other
                > formula which usually sets the contest factor near 5.5. I think a CF of
                > around 10 for NARAM would be about right. (Just my opinion, and based on the
                > number of events NARAM has had in the last 6 years.)
                >
                > Steve
                >
                >
                >
                > vincent_jeff <jvincent@...> wrote:
                > While the goal of increasing interest and participation is good (and
                > I can't say I have a good solution), I don't like the particulars of
                > this proposal. For me, the idea of not rewarding fliers for their
                > accomplishments (withholding points beyond 4800) goes against the
                > grain of what we are trying to do. You fly it, you earn it, you
                > should get to keep all of it.
                >
                > But wait, you say, what about multi-round flying and maxes? Isn't
                > that an established case of limiting and withholding scores? Well,
                > yes. But*, a very important but, is that it is done in an arena
                > where every flight of a finite number of flights counts.
                >
                > One thing that slipped by me on the first few reads of this proposal
                > was the possibilities offered by removing the 12 CF limit for
                > individuals, teams, and sections.
                >
                > First, the limit isn't 4800 points scored in a finite number of
                > meets, but as many as you can manage. So even the most mediocre
                > flier can pile up 4800 points and be a "contender", if they are
                > willing to fly enough meets. (It's ironic, as well, that one of the
                > ideas behind a CF limit is that a contestant may have only so many
                > meets available and that a finite CF limit levels the playing field).
                >
                > Second, since there is no CF limit for sections, they are free to fly
                > as frequently as they desire. (Weekly section meets, anyone? :) And
                > once you max out as an individual, start flying a team, and another
                > team, and another... The section championship will become (even
                > more) of an endurance test than a performance test.
                >
                > Finally, I think giving fewer awards (not recognizing the NARAM
                > champion as it is likely he will also be the National champion)
                > removes one more incentive for fliers who may want to fly NARAM
                > seriously but not have to take on a full season (be it 4 regionals
                > today or 2-3 by this proposal).
                >
                > -- Jeff
                >
                > * - Not to mention that there are practical reasons for multi-round
                > and maxes, such as rewarding consistency and weather, field, and
                > timing limitations.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contestRoc/
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > contestRoc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • shockie
                Could it be as simple as having a Regular NAR Champion and a NARAM Champion? Zero the points of everybody at NARAM? Then theoretically each person would
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 11, 2004
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                  Could it be as simple as having a Regular NAR Champion and a NARAM
                  Champion? Zero the points of everybody at NARAM? Then
                  theoretically each person would competing against the best....

                  Perhaps relaxing the proxy rule somewhat would help?

                  For example, if I could ship my models to a friend in say New
                  Jersey, and allow him to proxy fly my models....then at least my
                  models would be in competion..... this would solve the transporation
                  and time and money constraints that are some competitors....

                  Another problem as I see it is, competitor A might be competing in 3-
                  4 regionals with WF completely different than competitor B... One
                  potential solution might be to have sections that host regionals be
                  required to host the same events......then both competitors would be
                  competing in the same events with the same weighing factors.... and
                  the events that they are hosting would be a subset of those to be
                  held at NARAM....



                  shockie B)

                  --- In contestRoc@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Wolf" <dan_chris_wolf@c...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > The concept has some merit, but this implementation is not the
                  best. John
                  > DeMar and I have talked about submitting a similar proposal for
                  years. The
                  > question is are do some people give up on NAR comp or are turned
                  off by NAR
                  > comp because of the ability of contestants in some parts of the
                  country to
                  > rack up points against inferior or less competition and such that
                  for others
                  > to vie for the national championship they would have to spend
                  considerable
                  > sums of money to travel great distances to fly a full contest
                  year. I think
                  > the question is a valid one, especially for A and B division. It is
                  > possible that in some areas, an aspiring competitor can get a full
                  12 WFs in
                  > without having to drive more than 2 hours to a launch. The answer
                  for some
                  > has been to host their own meets. But this can be a problem if
                  there is no
                  > one else interested, and what if you are an A/B divisioner living
                  in Utah or
                  > Colorado? Yes, this problem has been there since the early years
                  of NAR
                  > comp. There's also the counter to that that those who live in the
                  > mid-atlantic can get their 12 WFs in easier, but at the cost of
                  much stiffer
                  > competition. It could be argued that the NARHAMs and NOVAAR A and B
                  > divisioners face stiffer competition year in and year out than
                  those from
                  > WOOSH. With the stiffer competition at NARAM, a big lead can be
                  difficult
                  > to overcome. Winning the NARAM meet SEEMS to be a small
                  consolation in many
                  > eyes.
                  >
                  > Where I have the problem is not keeping the 12 WF limit. Other
                  than that I
                  > would probably vote for this RCP. I see it as a compromise between
                  the
                  > status quo and those who favor making NARAM a winner take all meet
                  (no
                  > pre-NARAM points). The last time that proposal was put up to
                  vote, there
                  > were three votes for it from the Wolf house but it was soundly
                  defeated.
                  > The most common reason given against the Make NARAM a Shootout rule
                  was it
                  > woud kill all of the other contests throughout the year. So, like
                  the
                  > present return rule, I see having some type of cap a compromise
                  worth
                  > considering. I'm surprised so many here are against it. I find it
                  > discouraging every year to see a handful of people in most
                  divisions so far
                  > ahead of everyone else and I think other would be competitors do
                  too.
                  >
                  > Perhaps instead, we should consider changing the NARAM WF formula
                  from
                  > making the potential points earned at NARAM equal to those that can
                  be
                  > earned during the contest year to a 2/3 at NARAM - 1/3 contest year
                  formula.
                  >
                  > Dan
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Steve Foster" <steve72814@y...>
                  > To: <contestRoc@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:30 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [contestRoc] RCP 303 (limiting regular season points
                  to 4800,
                  > unlimited meets)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I basically agree with Jeff's statements on this one, I had some
                  interest in
                  > it until I got to the point where one could enter unlimited events,
                  that
                  > makes the events and points you earn during the year almost
                  meaningless. I
                  > think a better "fix" would be to make the NARAM points more
                  valuable. This
                  > would make sure the points you earned would be kept in some
                  proportional
                  > range but let you compete head-to-head with the competition with
                  the most
                  > points at stake. Right now rule 6.3.5 allows the National Contest
                  Board to
                  > use 8 as a CF but all the NARAM's I've been to (Last 6) use the
                  other
                  > formula which usually sets the contest factor near 5.5. I think a
                  CF of
                  > around 10 for NARAM would be about right. (Just my opinion, and
                  based on the
                  > number of events NARAM has had in the last 6 years.)
                  >
                  > Steve
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > vincent_jeff <jvincent@a...> wrote:
                  > While the goal of increasing interest and participation is good (and
                  > I can't say I have a good solution), I don't like the particulars of
                  > this proposal. For me, the idea of not rewarding fliers for their
                  > accomplishments (withholding points beyond 4800) goes against the
                  > grain of what we are trying to do. You fly it, you earn it, you
                  > should get to keep all of it.
                  >
                  > But wait, you say, what about multi-round flying and maxes? Isn't
                  > that an established case of limiting and withholding scores? Well,
                  > yes. But*, a very important but, is that it is done in an arena
                  > where every flight of a finite number of flights counts.
                  >
                  > One thing that slipped by me on the first few reads of this proposal
                  > was the possibilities offered by removing the 12 CF limit for
                  > individuals, teams, and sections.
                  >
                  > First, the limit isn't 4800 points scored in a finite number of
                  > meets, but as many as you can manage. So even the most mediocre
                  > flier can pile up 4800 points and be a "contender", if they are
                  > willing to fly enough meets. (It's ironic, as well, that one of the
                  > ideas behind a CF limit is that a contestant may have only so many
                  > meets available and that a finite CF limit levels the playing
                  field).
                  >
                  > Second, since there is no CF limit for sections, they are free to
                  fly
                  > as frequently as they desire. (Weekly section meets, anyone? :)
                  And
                  > once you max out as an individual, start flying a team, and another
                  > team, and another... The section championship will become (even
                  > more) of an endurance test than a performance test.
                  >
                  > Finally, I think giving fewer awards (not recognizing the NARAM
                  > champion as it is likely he will also be the National champion)
                  > removes one more incentive for fliers who may want to fly NARAM
                  > seriously but not have to take on a full season (be it 4 regionals
                  > today or 2-3 by this proposal).
                  >
                  > -- Jeff
                  >
                  > * - Not to mention that there are practical reasons for multi-round
                  > and maxes, such as rewarding consistency and weather, field, and
                  > timing limitations.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contestRoc/
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > contestRoc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                • Bruce
                  ... These are precisely the points I am trying to make! Because of the wide variety of conditions contestants encounter, pre-NARAM points cannot accurately
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 11, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dan Wolf wrote:

                    > The concept has some merit, but this implementation is not the best. John
                    > DeMar and I have talked about submitting a similar proposal for years. The
                    > question is are do some people give up on NAR comp or are turned off by NAR
                    > comp because of the ability of contestants in some parts of the country to
                    > rack up points against inferior or less competition and such that for others
                    > to vie for the national championship they would have to spend considerable
                    > sums of money to travel great distances to fly a full contest year. I think
                    > the question is a valid one, especially for A and B division. It is
                    > possible that in some areas, an aspiring competitor can get a full 12 WFs in
                    > without having to drive more than 2 hours to a launch. The answer for some
                    > has been to host their own meets. But this can be a problem if there is no
                    > one else interested, and what if you are an A/B divisioner living in Utah or
                    > Colorado? Yes, this problem has been there since the early years of NAR
                    > comp. There's also the counter to that that those who live in the
                    > mid-atlantic can get their 12 WFs in easier, but at the cost of much stiffer
                    > competition. It could be argued that the NARHAMs and NOVAAR A and B
                    > divisioners face stiffer competition year in and year out than those from
                    > WOOSH. With the stiffer competition at NARAM, a big lead can be difficult
                    > to overcome. Winning the NARAM meet SEEMS to be a small consolation in many
                    > eyes.
                    >
                    These are precisely the points I am trying to make! Because of the wide variety
                    of conditions contestants encounter, pre-NARAM points cannot accurately portray
                    the relative skill levels. By setting a limit on the pre-NARAM points, NARAM
                    would more accurately determine the relative skill of those participating
                    without reducing the participation in pre-NARAM competition.

                    > Where I have the problem is not keeping the 12 WF limit. Other than that I
                    > would probably vote for this RCP.

                    When I wrote the RCP, I honestly didn't see this as the sticky item it has
                    turned into. Looking at the overall picture, I saw the weighting factor limit as
                    unnecessary, since the idea was to encourage more participation at both NARAM
                    and pre-NARAM contests. Participating in four Regionals is grueling enough, and
                    I doubted that very few would attend more contests to reach the 4800 point
                    limit. If they did, they would certainly be at a disadvantage in preparation
                    time and resources as NARAM approached.
                    If this is really the big issue, I'd be happy to remove it from the RCP, if
                    possible, before the voting occurs. Either way is fine with me.

                    Bruce Markielewski
                  • John Buckley
                    Yes- I could support this proposal also, in fact it might be the best of both worlds. The drawback is that another category of trophies would be created that
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 12, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Yes-

                      I could support this proposal also, in fact it might be the best of both
                      worlds. The drawback is that another category of trophies would be
                      created that the host section would need to budget the purchase of. That
                      is we would have 1) a pre NARAM champion 2) NARAM champion, 3) an overall
                      champion (pre NARAM + NARAM points combined). Of course, this would be
                      mutiplied by 4 divisions, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th place for each.

                      John Buckley

                      "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In
                      practice, however, there is".

                      Jan van de Snepscheut

                      On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, shockie wrote:

                      > Could it be as simple as having a Regular NAR Champion and a NARAM
                      > Champion? Zero the points of everybody at NARAM? Then
                      > theoretically each person would competing against the best....
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > shockie B)
                      >
                      > --- In contestRoc@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Wolf" <dan_chris_wolf@c...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > The concept has some merit, but this implementation is not the
                      > best. John
                      > > DeMar and I have talked about submitting a similar proposal for
                      > years. The
                      > > question is are do some people give up on NAR comp or are turned
                      > off by NAR
                      > > comp because of the ability of contestants in some parts of the
                      > country to
                      > > rack up points against inferior or less competition and such that
                      > for others
                      > > to vie for the national championship they would have to spend
                      > considerable
                      > > sums of money to travel great distances to fly a full contest
                      > year. I think
                      > > the question is a valid one, especially for A and B division. It is
                      > > possible that in some areas, an aspiring competitor can get a full
                      > 12 WFs in
                      > > without having to drive more than 2 hours to a launch. The answer
                      > for some
                      > > has been to host their own meets. But this can be a problem if
                      > there is no
                      > > one else interested, and what if you are an A/B divisioner living
                      > in Utah or
                      > > Colorado? Yes, this problem has been there since the early years
                      > of NAR
                      > > comp. There's also the counter to that that those who live in the
                      > > mid-atlantic can get their 12 WFs in easier, but at the cost of
                      > much stiffer
                      > > competition. It could be argued that the NARHAMs and NOVAAR A and B
                      > > divisioners face stiffer competition year in and year out than
                      > those from
                      > > WOOSH. With the stiffer competition at NARAM, a big lead can be
                      > difficult
                      > > to overcome. Winning the NARAM meet SEEMS to be a small
                      > consolation in many
                      > > eyes.
                      > >
                      > > Where I have the problem is not keeping the 12 WF limit. Other
                      > than that I
                      > > would probably vote for this RCP. I see it as a compromise between
                      > the
                      > > status quo and those who favor making NARAM a winner take all meet
                      > (no
                      > > pre-NARAM points). The last time that proposal was put up to
                      > vote, there
                      > > were three votes for it from the Wolf house but it was soundly
                      > defeated.
                      > > The most common reason given against the Make NARAM a Shootout rule
                      > was it
                      > > woud kill all of the other contests throughout the year. So, like
                      > the
                      > > present return rule, I see having some type of cap a compromise
                      > worth
                      > > considering. I'm surprised so many here are against it. I find it
                      > > discouraging every year to see a handful of people in most
                      > divisions so far
                      > > ahead of everyone else and I think other would be competitors do
                      > too.
                      > >
                      > > Perhaps instead, we should consider changing the NARAM WF formula
                      > from
                      > > making the potential points earned at NARAM equal to those that can
                      > be
                      > > earned during the contest year to a 2/3 at NARAM - 1/3 contest year
                      > formula.
                      > >
                      > > Dan
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "Steve Foster" <steve72814@y...>
                      > > To: <contestRoc@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:30 PM
                      > > Subject: Re: [contestRoc] RCP 303 (limiting regular season points
                      > to 4800,
                      > > unlimited meets)
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I basically agree with Jeff's statements on this one, I had some
                      > interest in
                      > > it until I got to the point where one could enter unlimited events,
                      > that
                      > > makes the events and points you earn during the year almost
                      > meaningless. I
                      > > think a better "fix" would be to make the NARAM points more
                      > valuable. This
                      > > would make sure the points you earned would be kept in some
                      > proportional
                      > > range but let you compete head-to-head with the competition with
                      > the most
                      > > points at stake. Right now rule 6.3.5 allows the National Contest
                      > Board to
                      > > use 8 as a CF but all the NARAM's I've been to (Last 6) use the
                      > other
                      > > formula which usually sets the contest factor near 5.5. I think a
                      > CF of
                      > > around 10 for NARAM would be about right. (Just my opinion, and
                      > based on the
                      > > number of events NARAM has had in the last 6 years.)
                      > >
                      > > Steve
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > vincent_jeff <jvincent@a...> wrote:
                      > > While the goal of increasing interest and participation is good (and
                      > > I can't say I have a good solution), I don't like the particulars of
                      > > this proposal. For me, the idea of not rewarding fliers for their
                      > > accomplishments (withholding points beyond 4800) goes against the
                      > > grain of what we are trying to do. You fly it, you earn it, you
                      > > should get to keep all of it.
                      > >
                      > > But wait, you say, what about multi-round flying and maxes? Isn't
                      > > that an established case of limiting and withholding scores? Well,
                      > > yes. But*, a very important but, is that it is done in an arena
                      > > where every flight of a finite number of flights counts.
                      > >
                      > > One thing that slipped by me on the first few reads of this proposal
                      > > was the possibilities offered by removing the 12 CF limit for
                      > > individuals, teams, and sections.
                      > >
                      > > First, the limit isn't 4800 points scored in a finite number of
                      > > meets, but as many as you can manage. So even the most mediocre
                      > > flier can pile up 4800 points and be a "contender", if they are
                      > > willing to fly enough meets. (It's ironic, as well, that one of the
                      > > ideas behind a CF limit is that a contestant may have only so many
                      > > meets available and that a finite CF limit levels the playing
                      > field).
                      > >
                      > > Second, since there is no CF limit for sections, they are free to
                      > fly
                      > > as frequently as they desire. (Weekly section meets, anyone? :)
                      > And
                      > > once you max out as an individual, start flying a team, and another
                      > > team, and another... The section championship will become (even
                      > > more) of an endurance test than a performance test.
                      > >
                      > > Finally, I think giving fewer awards (not recognizing the NARAM
                      > > champion as it is likely he will also be the National champion)
                      > > removes one more incentive for fliers who may want to fly NARAM
                      > > seriously but not have to take on a full season (be it 4 regionals
                      > > today or 2-3 by this proposal).
                      > >
                      > > -- Jeff
                      > >
                      > > * - Not to mention that there are practical reasons for multi-round
                      > > and maxes, such as rewarding consistency and weather, field, and
                      > > timing limitations.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ---------------------------------
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contestRoc/
                      > >
                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > contestRoc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > Service.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ---------------------------------
                      > > Do you Yahoo!?
                      > > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster.
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Dan Wolf
                      That has been done before. NARAM-38 comes to mind. ... From: John Buckley To: contestRoc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 12:01 PM Subject: Re:
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 12, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        That has been done before. NARAM-38 comes to mind.

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: John Buckley
                        To: contestRoc@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, March 12, 2004 12:01 PM
                        Subject: Re: [contestRoc] Re: RCP 303 (limiting regular season points to 4800, unlimited meets)


                        Yes-

                        I could support this proposal also, in fact it might be the best of both
                        worlds. The drawback is that another category of trophies would be
                        created that the host section would need to budget the purchase of. That
                        is we would have 1) a pre NARAM champion 2) NARAM champion, 3) an overall
                        champion (pre NARAM + NARAM points combined). Of course, this would be
                        mutiplied by 4 divisions, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th place for each.

                        John Buckley

                        "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In
                        practice, however, there is".

                        Jan van de Snepscheut

                        On Fri, 12 Mar 2004, shockie wrote:

                        > Could it be as simple as having a Regular NAR Champion and a NARAM
                        > Champion? Zero the points of everybody at NARAM? Then
                        > theoretically each person would competing against the best....
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > shockie B)
                        >
                        > --- In contestRoc@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Wolf" <dan_chris_wolf@c...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > The concept has some merit, but this implementation is not the
                        > best. John
                        > > DeMar and I have talked about submitting a similar proposal for
                        > years. The
                        > > question is are do some people give up on NAR comp or are turned
                        > off by NAR
                        > > comp because of the ability of contestants in some parts of the
                        > country to
                        > > rack up points against inferior or less competition and such that
                        > for others
                        > > to vie for the national championship they would have to spend
                        > considerable
                        > > sums of money to travel great distances to fly a full contest
                        > year. I think
                        > > the question is a valid one, especially for A and B division. It is
                        > > possible that in some areas, an aspiring competitor can get a full
                        > 12 WFs in
                        > > without having to drive more than 2 hours to a launch. The answer
                        > for some
                        > > has been to host their own meets. But this can be a problem if
                        > there is no
                        > > one else interested, and what if you are an A/B divisioner living
                        > in Utah or
                        > > Colorado? Yes, this problem has been there since the early years
                        > of NAR
                        > > comp. There's also the counter to that that those who live in the
                        > > mid-atlantic can get their 12 WFs in easier, but at the cost of
                        > much stiffer
                        > > competition. It could be argued that the NARHAMs and NOVAAR A and B
                        > > divisioners face stiffer competition year in and year out than
                        > those from
                        > > WOOSH. With the stiffer competition at NARAM, a big lead can be
                        > difficult
                        > > to overcome. Winning the NARAM meet SEEMS to be a small
                        > consolation in many
                        > > eyes.
                        > >
                        > > Where I have the problem is not keeping the 12 WF limit. Other
                        > than that I
                        > > would probably vote for this RCP. I see it as a compromise between
                        > the
                        > > status quo and those who favor making NARAM a winner take all meet
                        > (no
                        > > pre-NARAM points). The last time that proposal was put up to
                        > vote, there
                        > > were three votes for it from the Wolf house but it was soundly
                        > defeated.
                        > > The most common reason given against the Make NARAM a Shootout rule
                        > was it
                        > > woud kill all of the other contests throughout the year. So, like
                        > the
                        > > present return rule, I see having some type of cap a compromise
                        > worth
                        > > considering. I'm surprised so many here are against it. I find it
                        > > discouraging every year to see a handful of people in most
                        > divisions so far
                        > > ahead of everyone else and I think other would be competitors do
                        > too.
                        > >
                        > > Perhaps instead, we should consider changing the NARAM WF formula
                        > from
                        > > making the potential points earned at NARAM equal to those that can
                        > be
                        > > earned during the contest year to a 2/3 at NARAM - 1/3 contest year
                        > formula.
                        > >
                        > > Dan
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: "Steve Foster" <steve72814@y...>
                        > > To: <contestRoc@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 9:30 PM
                        > > Subject: Re: [contestRoc] RCP 303 (limiting regular season points
                        > to 4800,
                        > > unlimited meets)
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I basically agree with Jeff's statements on this one, I had some
                        > interest in
                        > > it until I got to the point where one could enter unlimited events,
                        > that
                        > > makes the events and points you earn during the year almost
                        > meaningless. I
                        > > think a better "fix" would be to make the NARAM points more
                        > valuable. This
                        > > would make sure the points you earned would be kept in some
                        > proportional
                        > > range but let you compete head-to-head with the competition with
                        > the most
                        > > points at stake. Right now rule 6.3.5 allows the National Contest
                        > Board to
                        > > use 8 as a CF but all the NARAM's I've been to (Last 6) use the
                        > other
                        > > formula which usually sets the contest factor near 5.5. I think a
                        > CF of
                        > > around 10 for NARAM would be about right. (Just my opinion, and
                        > based on the
                        > > number of events NARAM has had in the last 6 years.)
                        > >
                        > > Steve
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > vincent_jeff <jvincent@a...> wrote:
                        > > While the goal of increasing interest and participation is good (and
                        > > I can't say I have a good solution), I don't like the particulars of
                        > > this proposal. For me, the idea of not rewarding fliers for their
                        > > accomplishments (withholding points beyond 4800) goes against the
                        > > grain of what we are trying to do. You fly it, you earn it, you
                        > > should get to keep all of it.
                        > >
                        > > But wait, you say, what about multi-round flying and maxes? Isn't
                        > > that an established case of limiting and withholding scores? Well,
                        > > yes. But*, a very important but, is that it is done in an arena
                        > > where every flight of a finite number of flights counts.
                        > >
                        > > One thing that slipped by me on the first few reads of this proposal
                        > > was the possibilities offered by removing the 12 CF limit for
                        > > individuals, teams, and sections.
                        > >
                        > > First, the limit isn't 4800 points scored in a finite number of
                        > > meets, but as many as you can manage. So even the most mediocre
                        > > flier can pile up 4800 points and be a "contender", if they are
                        > > willing to fly enough meets. (It's ironic, as well, that one of the
                        > > ideas behind a CF limit is that a contestant may have only so many
                        > > meets available and that a finite CF limit levels the playing
                        > field).
                        > >
                        > > Second, since there is no CF limit for sections, they are free to
                        > fly
                        > > as frequently as they desire. (Weekly section meets, anyone? :)
                        > And
                        > > once you max out as an individual, start flying a team, and another
                        > > team, and another... The section championship will become (even
                        > > more) of an endurance test than a performance test.
                        > >
                        > > Finally, I think giving fewer awards (not recognizing the NARAM
                        > > champion as it is likely he will also be the National champion)
                        > > removes one more incentive for fliers who may want to fly NARAM
                        > > seriously but not have to take on a full season (be it 4 regionals
                        > > today or 2-3 by this proposal).
                        > >
                        > > -- Jeff
                        > >
                        > > * - Not to mention that there are practical reasons for multi-round
                        > > and maxes, such as rewarding consistency and weather, field, and
                        > > timing limitations.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ---------------------------------
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contestRoc/
                        > >
                        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > contestRoc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > >
                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        > Service.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ---------------------------------
                        > > Do you Yahoo!?
                        > > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster.
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        Yahoo! Groups Links

                        a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/contestRoc/

                        b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        contestRoc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                        c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • John DeMar
                        ... At NARAM-39 (Tucson) I sent out proxy models for Team div for the 1st three days and was there for Thurs/Fri. I think R&D and Sport Scale were enough for
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 14, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dan Wolf wrote:
                          > "Uncle Al" Nienast won the C division at NARAM 21 that way
                          > (proxy flying by other Midwesterners) and his section won the
                          > championship that way too (although Tom Pastrick was a member of
                          > WWAR and was there part of the week. A rule change about 8-9
                          > years ago disallowed top four finishers from being proxies, IIRC.

                          At NARAM-39 (Tucson) I sent out proxy models for Team div for the 1st
                          three days and was there for Thurs/Fri. I think R&D and Sport Scale were
                          enough for us (Phobos & Deimos) to clinch the season without using our proxy
                          points. I don't remember if anyone brought up the no-proxy rule.
                          The most important factor was picking a year that Southern Neutron wasn't
                          competing! 8-) Plus I spent a LOT of money flying out there, shipping stuff,
                          etc.

                          This seems to reinforce the points I've seen made here and elsewhere over
                          the years... the pre-NARAM points, the expense, and the vacation time...
                          limit the number of people who will consider a serious run for National
                          Champ. Changing the point structure would only fix one of those. And none
                          of the this would change the esoteric nature of Pink Book competition,
                          which I believe is the main limiting factor to getting more people involved
                          in rocket competition. All of these internal tweakings of the rules aren't
                          much more than 'preaching to the choir'. I'm not saying that the effort
                          isn't worthwhile, just that it's not going to have that much of an effect
                          on increasing the number of competitors.

                          I think the best way to get more people involved in rocket competition
                          (and rocketry in general) is to have a wider variety of competitive
                          acitivities. TARC, for example, has shown that a new program will attract
                          more people instead of trying to get them to conform to an existing
                          competition structure.

                          -John DeMar
                          NAR #52094
                        • RobEdmonds@aol.com
                          Message 12 of 12 , Mar 14, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            << And none of the this would change the esoteric nature of Pink Book
                            competition,
                            which I believe is the main limiting factor to getting more people involved
                            in rocket competition. >>

                            Please expand on this point. I'm not sure what you mean.

                            << I think the best way to get more people involved in rocket competition
                            (and rocketry in general) is to have a wider variety of competitive
                            acitivities. TARC, for example, has shown that a new program will attract
                            more people instead of trying to get them to conform to an existing
                            competition structure. >>

                            100% to that.
                            RE
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