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Re: Pink Book lawyer question

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  • Patrick Peterson
    ... Obviously I missed Rule 9.6 when I looked this up. In my defense, it would seem that Rule 9.6 is a points issue and should fall under Section 13. Thanks
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 6, 2008
      --- Chan Stevens wrote:
      > Doesn't seem that vague to me... rule 9.6

      Obviously I missed Rule 9.6 when I looked this up. In my defense, it
      would seem that Rule 9.6 is a "points" issue and should fall under
      Section 13.

      Thanks for the clarification.
    • gcgassaway@aol.com
      ... Suppose you have a contest, and let s say in one event, only one person enters the event (say a helicopter event where only 1 person brings an HD model to
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 6, 2008
        >>>>>
        Suppose you have a contest, and let's say in one event, only one person
        enters the event (say a helicopter event where only 1 person brings an
        HD model to enter). I'm guessing that 0 points can be awarded in an
        event where there aren't 2 or more entries, but the Pink Book doesn't
        appear to address this. In this case, is the person who was the only
        entry in the event just out of luck?
        <<<<<<

        As Chan has replied, there do need to be at least two entries.

        BUT, a person would not necessarily be out of luck. Not if they think outside
        of the box.

        They could try to convince another flier to enter SOMETHING, anything, as a
        second entry (even paying for the engine). Does not matter that the second
        entry would not be a copter model, even a Rocket Glider could be entered and flown
        as a second model. Of course.... that model would be DQ'ed for non-rotation,
        but the rules do not say that there have to be two entries that make qualified
        flights, it says at least two entries entered and flown.

        Also, there is a big difference between people coming up with a competitive
        copter model to try to win with, and "something" that might actually make a
        qualified flight and get them second place points. I mean, stuff that takes evne
        less time than a Tasmanian Devil. A great example would be anyone who had a
        flying saucer type model, Duct Tape and sturdy scrap balsa could be used to add
        spin tabs to the saucer. Or a Big Bertha, a person could replace the chute
        with a 1.5" wide piece of balsa or 1/64" plywood about 6" long, the shock cord
        attached to one corner, and most likely that would act like a monocopter blade
        (maple seed style). And that's just for on-the-field ideas, a person who had
        a bit more time to think it over could get hold of the propeller from a
        rubber-power airplane and tie that to the shock cord (though I am not so sure that
        would really work as well as the simple rectangular maple seed style blade).

        Ages ago, my team once took second place in D Streamer, using a D powered
        Flying Saucer that had a field-added streamer compartment glued on top of it.
        That was because it was an overcast day and our sleek high-performance model went
        thru the clouds and disappeared, with an official time of 2 seconds, as did
        other competitor's models. The winner's model was a BT-60 klunker, which did
        not go thru the clouds. We did not have anything like that BT-60 klunker, so we
        had to shoot for second place, using the saucer to both get us more time than
        the other birds that were disappearing in 2 seconds, and to act as a "return"
        flight (though later we did find out first bird that had disappeared into the
        overcast, with streamer fully deployed).

        BTW - Before Bob Kaplow goes "ape" over flying into the overcast, this was
        before the Safety Code was changed to prohibit flying thru clouds.

        - George Gassaway


        **************
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      • Eldred Pickett
        ... Does that rocket have to be built by the flier? If not, Flier #1 could have an extra rocket to loan to Flier #2 to enter... Eldred -- I m from the IRS.
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 6, 2008
          On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 9:47 PM, <gcgassaway@...> wrote:
          >>>>>>
          > Suppose you have a contest, and let's say in one event, only one person
          > enters the event (say a helicopter event where only 1 person brings an
          > HD model to enter). I'm guessing that 0 points can be awarded in an
          > event where there aren't 2 or more entries, but the Pink Book doesn't
          > appear to address this. In this case, is the person who was the only
          > entry in the event just out of luck?
          > <<<<<<
          >
          > As Chan has replied, there do need to be at least two entries.
          >
          > BUT, a person would not necessarily be out of luck. Not if they think outside
          > of the box.
          >
          > They could try to convince another flier to enter SOMETHING, anything, as a
          > second entry (even paying for the engine). Does not matter that the second
          > entry would not be a copter model, even a Rocket Glider could be entered and flown
          > as a second model. Of course.... that model would be DQ'ed for non-rotation,
          > but the rules do not say that there have to be two entries that make qualified
          > flights, it says at least two entries entered and flown.
          >

          Does that rocket have to be built by the flier? If not, Flier #1
          could have an extra rocket to loan to Flier #2 to enter...

          Eldred
          --
          I'm from the IRS. The government has spent all your tax money. Don't
          worry - we'll just take what we need from your bank account.

          My eBay store: http://PPSpecialtyGifts.com
          Half dot com: http://shops.half.ebay.com/epickett
        • Greg Poehlein
          ... Yes: 9.9 Construction The RSO or his/her deputy shall make every reasonable effort to ensure that each contestant has completely constructed the model
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 7, 2008
            --- In contestRoc@yahoogroups.com, "Eldred Pickett" <epickett@...> wrote:

            > Does that rocket have to be built by the flier? If not, Flier #1
            > could have an extra rocket to loan to Flier #2 to enter...
            >
            > Eldred
            > --

            Yes:

            9.9 Construction
            The RSO or his/her deputy shall make every reasonable effort to ensure that each contestant
            has completely constructed the model rocket(s) he/she uses in competition. Model rockets
            not requiring construction shall be excluded from competition. Materials and design may be
            obtained from any source, including kits.

            Greg
          • Eldred Pickett
            ... Oh well - it was worth a shot... Eldred -- I m from the IRS. The government has spent all your tax money. Don t worry - we ll just take what we need
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 7, 2008
              On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 7:33 AM, Greg Poehlein <gpoehlein@...> wrote:
              > --- In contestRoc@yahoogroups.com, "Eldred Pickett" <epickett@...> wrote:
              >
              >> Does that rocket have to be built by the flier? If not, Flier #1
              >> could have an extra rocket to loan to Flier #2 to enter...
              >>
              >> Eldred
              >> --
              >
              > Yes:
              >
              > 9.9 Construction
              > The RSO or his/her deputy shall make every reasonable effort to ensure that each contestant
              > has completely constructed the model rocket(s) he/she uses in competition. Model rockets
              > not requiring construction shall be excluded from competition. Materials and design may be
              > obtained from any source, including kits.
              >
              > Greg
              >

              Oh well - it was worth a shot...<g>

              Eldred
              --
              I'm from the IRS. The government has spent all your tax money. Don't
              worry - we'll just take what we need from your bank account.

              My eBay store: http://PPSpecialtyGifts.com
              Half dot com: http://shops.half.ebay.com/epickett
            • Gary Crowell
              Hmmm, that paragraph doesn t say that the flyer must build the model. Just that the RSO has to make some effort to ensure that he did. Looks like an
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 9, 2008
                Hmmm, that paragraph doesn't say that the flyer must build the model. Just
                that the RSO has to make some effort to ensure that he did. Looks like an
                invitation to try and slip one by. If you do get it by him, or even if you
                get caught, you haven't broken the rule.



                Hey, the subject -is- PB lawyerism. I haven't looked at the PB in a long
                time, but it has always seemed like there were many paragraphs that seemed
                to dance around their intent, when a simple statement would nail it down:



                9.9 Construction

                Each contestant must completely construct the model he/she uses in
                competition. The RSO shall make a reasonable effort to ensure that this is
                true. Etc.



                GC



                From: contestRoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:contestRoc@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Eldred Pickett
                Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 5:50 AM
                To: contestRoc@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [contestRoc] Re: Pink Book lawyer question



                On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 7:33 AM, Greg Poehlein <gpoehlein@...
                <mailto:gpoehlein%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
                > --- In contestRoc@yahoogroups.com <mailto:contestRoc%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                "Eldred Pickett" <epickett@...> wrote:
                >
                >> Does that rocket have to be built by the flier? If not, Flier #1
                >> could have an extra rocket to loan to Flier #2 to enter...
                >>
                >> Eldred
                >> --
                >
                > Yes:
                >
                > 9.9 Construction
                > The RSO or his/her deputy shall make every reasonable effort to ensure
                that each contestant
                > has completely constructed the model rocket(s) he/she uses in competition.
                Model rockets
                > not requiring construction shall be excluded from competition. Materials
                and design may be
                > obtained from any source, including kits.
                >
                > Greg
                >

                Oh well - it was worth a shot...<g>

                Eldred
                --
                I'm from the IRS. The government has spent all your tax money. Don't
                worry - we'll just take what we need from your bank account.

                My eBay store: http://PPSpecialtyGifts.com
                Half dot com: http://shops.half.ebay.com/epickett





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Chan Stevens
                OK, if we want to get all lawyerly (per the thread title), the reason it doesn t say FLYER and instead says CONTESTANT is because of the potential for proxy
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 10, 2008
                  OK, if we want to get all lawyerly (per the thread title), the reason it
                  doesn't say FLYER and instead says CONTESTANT is because of the potential
                  for proxy flying, which is allowable in most events.

                  On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 2:03 AM, Gary Crowell <vcp@...> wrote:

                  > Hmmm, that paragraph doesn't say that the flyer must build the model.
                  > Just
                  > that the RSO has to make some effort to ensure that he did. Looks like an
                  > invitation to try and slip one by. If you do get it by him, or even if you
                  > get caught, you haven't broken the rule.
                  >
                  > Hey, the subject -is- PB lawyerism. I haven't looked at the PB in a long
                  > time, but it has always seemed like there were many paragraphs that seemed
                  > to dance around their intent, when a simple statement would nail it down:
                  >
                  > 9.9 Construction
                  >
                  > Each contestant must completely construct the model he/she uses in
                  > competition. The RSO shall make a reasonable effort to ensure that this is
                  > true. Etc.
                  >
                  > GC
                  >
                  > From: contestRoc@yahoogroups.com <contestRoc%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                  > contestRoc@yahoogroups.com <contestRoc%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                  > Behalf Of Eldred Pickett
                  > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 5:50 AM
                  > To: contestRoc@yahoogroups.com <contestRoc%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: Re: [contestRoc] Re: Pink Book lawyer question
                  >
                  > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 7:33 AM, Greg Poehlein <gpoehlein@...<gpoehlein%40yahoo.com>
                  > <mailto:gpoehlein%40yahoo.com <gpoehlein%2540yahoo.com>> > wrote:
                  > > --- In contestRoc@yahoogroups.com <contestRoc%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
                  > contestRoc%40yahoogroups.com <contestRoc%2540yahoogroups.com>> ,
                  > "Eldred Pickett" <epickett@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> Does that rocket have to be built by the flier? If not, Flier #1
                  > >> could have an extra rocket to loan to Flier #2 to enter...
                  > >>
                  > >> Eldred
                  > >> --
                  > >
                  > > Yes:
                  > >
                  > > 9.9 Construction
                  > > The RSO or his/her deputy shall make every reasonable effort to ensure
                  > that each contestant
                  > > has completely constructed the model rocket(s) he/she uses in
                  > competition.
                  > Model rockets
                  > > not requiring construction shall be excluded from competition. Materials
                  > and design may be
                  > > obtained from any source, including kits.
                  > >
                  > > Greg
                  > >
                  >
                  > Oh well - it was worth a shot...<g>
                  >
                  > Eldred
                  > --
                  > I'm from the IRS. The government has spent all your tax money. Don't
                  > worry - we'll just take what we need from your bank account.
                  >
                  > My eBay store: http://PPSpecialtyGifts.com <http://ppspecialtygifts.com/>
                  > Half dot com: http://shops.half.ebay.com/epickett
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Steve Foster
                  Also, if you word it to completely build the model that could potentially rule out any kits being used - it can make thinks much worse if you try to dfine
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 10, 2008
                    Also, if you word it to "completely build" the model that could potentially rule out any kits being used - it can make thinks much worse if you try to dfine everything too much.
                     
                    Steve

                    --- On Fri, 10/10/08, Chan Stevens <chanstevens@...> wrote:

                    From: Chan Stevens <chanstevens@...>
                    Subject: Re: [contestRoc] Re: Pink Book lawyer question
                    To: contestRoc@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 8:21 AM






                    OK, if we want to get all lawyerly (per the thread title), the reason it
                    doesn't say FLYER and instead says CONTESTANT is because of the potential
                    for proxy flying, which is allowable in most events.

                    On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 2:03 AM, Gary Crowell <vcp@cableone. net> wrote:

                    > Hmmm, that paragraph doesn't say that the flyer must build the model.
                    > Just
                    > that the RSO has to make some effort to ensure that he did. Looks like an
                    > invitation to try and slip one by. If you do get it by him, or even if you
                    > get caught, you haven't broken the rule.
                    >
                    > Hey, the subject -is- PB lawyerism. I haven't looked at the PB in a long
                    > time, but it has always seemed like there were many paragraphs that seemed
                    > to dance around their intent, when a simple statement would nail it down:
                    >
                    > 9.9 Construction
                    >
                    > Each contestant must completely construct the model he/she uses in
                    > competition. The RSO shall make a reasonable effort to ensure that this is
                    > true. Etc.
                    >
                    > GC
                    >
                    > From: contestRoc@yahoogro ups.com <contestRoc% 40yahoogroups. com> [mailto:
                    > contestRoc@yahoogro ups.com <contestRoc% 40yahoogroups. com>] On
                    > Behalf Of Eldred Pickett
                    > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 5:50 AM
                    > To: contestRoc@yahoogro ups.com <contestRoc% 40yahoogroups. com>
                    > Subject: Re: [contestRoc] Re: Pink Book lawyer question
                    >
                    > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 7:33 AM, Greg Poehlein <gpoehlein@yahoo. com<gpoehlein%40yahoo. com>
                    > <mailto:gpoehlein% 40yahoo.com <gpoehlein%2540yaho o.com>> > wrote:
                    > > --- In contestRoc@yahoogro ups.com <contestRoc% 40yahoogroups. com><mailto:
                    > contestRoc%40yahoog roups.com <contestRoc% 2540yahoogroups. com>> ,
                    > "Eldred Pickett" <epickett@.. .> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >> Does that rocket have to be built by the flier? If not, Flier #1
                    > >> could have an extra rocket to loan to Flier #2 to enter...
                    > >>
                    > >> Eldred
                    > >> --
                    > >
                    > > Yes:
                    > >
                    > > 9.9 Construction
                    > > The RSO or his/her deputy shall make every reasonable effort to ensure
                    > that each contestant
                    > > has completely constructed the model rocket(s) he/she uses in
                    > competition.
                    > Model rockets
                    > > not requiring construction shall be excluded from competition. Materials
                    > and design may be
                    > > obtained from any source, including kits.
                    > >
                    > > Greg
                    > >
                    >
                    > Oh well - it was worth a shot...<g>
                    >
                    > Eldred
                    > --
                    > I'm from the IRS. The government has spent all your tax money. Don't
                    > worry - we'll just take what we need from your bank account.
                    >
                    > My eBay store: http://PPSpecialtyG ifts.com <http://ppspecialtyg ifts.com/>
                    > Half dot com: http://shops. half.ebay. com/epickett
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Patrick Peterson
                    It has always struck me that there is a considerable grey area as to what constitutes building the model. There are kits that provide a lot that is
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 10, 2008
                      It has always struck me that there is a considerable grey area as to
                      what constitutes building the model. There are kits that provide a lot
                      that is pre-assembled. Before I attended my first NAR meet in 1979,
                      someone told me that you couldn't fly a model with a pre-assembled fin
                      unit (as in the Estes Alpha III). But they said that if I broke off
                      one of the pre-assembled fins and glued it back on myself, then this
                      satisfied the builder rule. I don't know if anyone followed this same
                      sort of logic today, but it illustrates how it is hard to find where to
                      draw the line.
                    • Bob Kaplow
                      The 1979-1988 pink book actually defined trivial construction as to be any rocket with a preassembled fin unit, banning them from competition. Didn t matter
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 10, 2008
                        The 1979-1988 pink book actually defined trivial construction as to be any rocket with a preassembled fin unit, banning them from competition. Didn't matter how complicated the rest of the model was, or that the event was Spot Landing or Predicted Altitude (where a one piece plastic fin unit was an intelligent strategy), one piece fin units were banned.

                        To show that some complicated models really existed, I actually had a mid 70s E/F Dual Egglofter that used a one piece fin. I think I've still got it.

                        And yes, Cutting them off and gluing them back on was a popular option to get around a stupid rule. My Predicted Altitude model for that decade was actually a BT-60 model and plastic nose cone, with 3 fins that I'd cut off from a four fin unit. Took a First at NARAM-30!

                        --- On Fri, 10/10/08, Patrick Peterson <msh40503@...> wrote:
                        From: Patrick Peterson <msh40503@...>
                        Subject: [contestRoc] Re: Pink Book lawyer question
                        To: contestRoc@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 8:30 AM











                        It has always struck me that there is a considerable grey area as to

                        what constitutes building the model. There are kits that provide a lot

                        that is pre-assembled. Before I attended my first NAR meet in 1979,

                        someone told me that you couldn't fly a model with a pre-assembled fin

                        unit (as in the Estes Alpha III). But they said that if I broke off

                        one of the pre-assembled fins and glued it back on myself, then this

                        satisfied the builder rule. I don't know if anyone followed this same

                        sort of logic today, but it illustrates how it is hard to find where to

                        draw the line.






















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Eldred Pickett
                        ... It doesn t? Each contestant must completely construct the model he/she uses in competition. Sounds like the flyer has to build it to me... ... Ok, I m
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 10, 2008
                          On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 2:03 AM, Gary Crowell <vcp@...> wrote:
                          > Hmmm, that paragraph doesn't say that the flyer must build the model.

                          It doesn't? "> Each contestant must completely construct the model
                          he/she uses in competition."

                          Sounds like the flyer has to build it to me...

                          >Just
                          > that the RSO has to make some effort to ensure that he did. Looks like an
                          > invitation to try and slip one by. If you do get it by him, or even if you
                          > get caught, you haven't broken the rule.
                          >
                          >

                          Ok, I'm not seeing that. But then again, I haven't done competition
                          where people are trying to see how close you can come to cheating
                          without getting caught.

                          Eldred
                        • appraisalservices2000
                          Ok, I m not seeing that. But then again, I haven t done competition where people are trying to see how close you can come to cheating without getting caught.
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 10, 2008
                            "Ok, I'm not seeing that. But then again, I haven't done competition
                            where people are trying to see how close you can come to cheating
                            without getting caught.
                            Eldred"


                            That's my thought exactly. Somewhere, 'sportmanship' comes to mind
                            where people should want to compete on a level playing field and not
                            want to win simply because they've figured out a better way around the
                            rules. Gaming the rules seems to be more prevalent in rocketry as
                            compared to other sports and hobbies I'm in.
                          • Jeff Graham
                            It seems that if someone would put as much time into their models as they do trying to get around the rules they would have some pretty good models. Jeff
                            Message 13 of 26 , Oct 10, 2008
                              It seems that if someone would put as much time into their models as they do trying to get around the rules they would have some pretty good models.


                              Jeff Graham
                              jgraham1971@...
                              www.smashrocketry.org
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: appraisalservices2000
                              To: contestRoc@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 12:34 PM
                              Subject: [contestRoc] Re: Pink Book lawyer question


                              "Ok, I'm not seeing that. But then again, I haven't done competition
                              where people are trying to see how close you can come to cheating
                              without getting caught.
                              Eldred"

                              That's my thought exactly. Somewhere, 'sportmanship' comes to mind
                              where people should want to compete on a level playing field and not
                              want to win simply because they've figured out a better way around the
                              rules. Gaming the rules seems to be more prevalent in rocketry as
                              compared to other sports and hobbies I'm in.





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Patrick Peterson
                              ... I don t know who the someone is you are referring to here --- I hope just a hypothetical someone. Because I don t think any of us who have posted on this
                              Message 14 of 26 , Oct 10, 2008
                                --- Jeff Graham wrote:
                                > It seems that if someone would put as much time
                                > into their models as they do trying to get around
                                > the rules they would have some pretty good models.

                                I don't know who the someone is you are referring to here --- I hope
                                just a hypothetical someone. Because I don't think any of us who have
                                posted on this topic are "trying to get around the rules". I think the
                                discussion has just been about what the rules actually are (You have to
                                know what the rules are in order to follow them).
                              • Jeff Graham
                                Hypothetical someone. I think most of the rules were made before some of these modern advancements such as plastic fincans and such. I believe that if the
                                Message 15 of 26 , Oct 10, 2008
                                  Hypothetical someone. I think most of the rules were made before some of these modern advancements such as plastic fincans and such. I believe that if the model is in a kit form or such it should count as building the model. maybe borderline on RTF models. You may have to assemble the parachute.


                                  Jeff Graham
                                  jgraham1971@...
                                  www.smashrocketry.org
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Patrick Peterson
                                  To: contestRoc@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 1:36 PM
                                  Subject: [contestRoc] Re: Pink Book lawyer question


                                  --- Jeff Graham wrote:
                                  > It seems that if someone would put as much time
                                  > into their models as they do trying to get around
                                  > the rules they would have some pretty good models.

                                  I don't know who the someone is you are referring to here --- I hope
                                  just a hypothetical someone. Because I don't think any of us who have
                                  posted on this topic are "trying to get around the rules". I think the
                                  discussion has just been about what the rules actually are (You have to
                                  know what the rules are in order to follow them).





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Gary Crowell
                                  Thank you. You were quoting my rewrite of 9.9 which makes the statement direct, as you note. The real 9.9 appears earlier in the thread. GC From:
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Oct 10, 2008
                                    Thank you. You were quoting my rewrite of 9.9 which makes the statement
                                    direct, as you note. The 'real' 9.9 appears earlier in the thread.



                                    GC



                                    From: contestRoc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:contestRoc@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    Behalf Of Eldred Pickett
                                    Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 9:12 AM
                                    To: contestRoc@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [contestRoc] Re: Pink Book lawyer question



                                    On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 2:03 AM, Gary Crowell <vcp@...
                                    <mailto:vcp%40cableone.net> > wrote:
                                    > Hmmm, that paragraph doesn't say that the flyer must build the model.

                                    It doesn't? "> Each contestant must completely construct the model
                                    he/she uses in competition."

                                    Sounds like the flyer has to build it to me...

                                    >Just
                                    > that the RSO has to make some effort to ensure that he did. Looks like an
                                    > invitation to try and slip one by. If you do get it by him, or even if you
                                    > get caught, you haven't broken the rule.
                                    >
                                    >

                                    Ok, I'm not seeing that. But then again, I haven't done competition
                                    where people are trying to see how close you can come to cheating
                                    without getting caught.

                                    Eldred





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Ez2cDave@aol.com
                                    Eldred, Even POLITICIANS can t make that claim . . . LOL ! Dave Fitch ********************************************************************* In a message dated
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Oct 10, 2008
                                      Eldred,

                                      Even POLITICIANS can't make that claim . . . LOL !

                                      Dave Fitch

                                      *********************************************************************


                                      In a message dated 10/10/2008 10:47:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                      vcp@... writes:

                                      Ok, I'm not seeing that. But then again, I haven't done competition
                                      where people are trying to see how close you can come to cheating
                                      without getting caught.

                                      Eldred


                                      **************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination.
                                      Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out
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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Eldred Pickett
                                      ... Phooey. I must have been half asleep when I looked at that. Sorry. Eldred
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Oct 10, 2008
                                        On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 10:49 PM, Gary Crowell <vcp@...> wrote:
                                        > Thank you. You were quoting my rewrite of 9.9 which makes the statement
                                        > direct, as you note. The 'real' 9.9 appears earlier in the thread.
                                        >

                                        Phooey. I must have been half asleep when I looked at that. Sorry.

                                        Eldred
                                      • Eldred Pickett
                                        ... I m serious. The only competition flying I ve done so far was just a fun little contest with my local club. So nobody was trying to stretch the rules
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Oct 10, 2008
                                          On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 11:01 PM, <Ez2cDave@...> wrote:
                                          > Eldred,
                                          >
                                          > Even POLITICIANS can't make that claim . . . LOL !
                                          >
                                          > Dave Fitch
                                          >

                                          I'm serious. The only competition flying I've done so far was just a
                                          fun little contest with my local club. So nobody was trying to
                                          'stretch' the rules to their advantage.
                                          So I gather from your response that people try to cheat all the time
                                          in your contests?

                                          Eldred
                                        • gcgassaway@aol.com
                                          ... Ok, I m not seeing that. But then again, I haven t done competition where people are trying to see how close you can come to cheating without getting
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Oct 11, 2008
                                            Eldred Pickett wrote:

                                            >>>-->>>
                                            Ok, I'm not seeing that. But then again, I haven't done competition
                                            where people are trying to see how close you can come to cheating
                                            without getting caught.
                                            <<<--<<<

                                            Dave Fitch replied:
                                            >>>>
                                            Even POLITICIANS can't make that claim . . . LOL !
                                            <<<<

                                            Eldred replied:
                                            >>>-->>>
                                            I'm serious. The only competition flying I've done so far was just a
                                            fun little contest with my local club. So nobody was trying to
                                            'stretch' the rules to their advantage.
                                            So I gather from your response that people try to cheat all the time
                                            in your contests?
                                            <<<--<<<

                                            Dave's flippant "Politician" comment was Dave being Dave. As he admitted to
                                            me at NARAM, he likes to "stir the pot" with his various posts in mailing
                                            lists.

                                            Anyway, as to the core of your question, no, it is NOT like people are trying
                                            to see how close they can come to cheating without being caught. There can be
                                            other hobbies and competition activities where cheating may be rampant but
                                            not in NAR competition.

                                            I will admit there can be a few exceptions to this, when a few people do
                                            break the rules purposely, but there are very VERY few cases of them. And most of
                                            them do get caught.

                                            Now, this is not to say that sometimes a competitor might try something that
                                            butts up very close against the rules, by using a unique design approach or
                                            strategy, or "loophole". But they are not trying to BREAK the rules, or cheat,
                                            they are trying to go as far as the rules will allow them to. It's a
                                            competition which involves elements of design, technology, strategy, and flying, so it
                                            is advantageous to push those to the limit. And it is not cheating to push
                                            those to the limit, cheating is going PAST the limit (knowingly breaking the
                                            rules).

                                            - George Gassaway



                                            **************
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                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • artupton
                                            ... some of these modern advancements such as plastic fincans and such. I believe that if the model is in a kit form or such it should count as building the
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Oct 11, 2008
                                              --- In contestRoc@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Graham" <jgraham1971@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hypothetical someone. I think most of the rules were made before
                                              some of these modern advancements such as plastic fincans and such. I
                                              believe that if the model is in a kit form or such it should count as
                                              building the model. maybe borderline on RTF models. You may have to
                                              assemble the parachute.
                                              >

                                              Hi Jeff,

                                              If my memory serves me, Tom Lyon the Contest Chairman at NARAM-45 flew
                                              an estes plastic rocket for spot landing saying he did assemble the
                                              parachute.

                                              Tom ?

                                              Art
                                            • Greg Poehlein
                                              I don t think so, Jeff - I wasn t there, of course, but I understand that plastic fin cans and nose cones were there at right at the beginning of rocketry.
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Oct 12, 2008
                                                I don't think so, Jeff - I wasn't there, of course, but I understand that plastic fin cans and
                                                nose cones were there at right at the beginning of rocketry. Consider that plastic fin cans
                                                and plastic nose cones were used on some of the very first model rockets. They were a
                                                legacy from the fireworks industry which supplied some of the first rocket components. A
                                                good example of this is G Harry Stine's Dirty Bird design. It used the PF-40A plastic fin can
                                                from Estes.

                                                Greg

                                                --- In contestRoc@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Graham" <jgraham1971@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hypothetical someone. I think most of the rules were made before some of these
                                                modern advancements such as plastic fincans and such. I believe that if the model is in a
                                                kit form or such it should count as building the model. maybe borderline on RTF models.
                                                You may have to assemble the parachute.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Jeff Graham
                                                > jgraham1971@...
                                                > www.smashrocketry.org
                                              • Greg Poehlein
                                                ... Not exactly. As Chan pointed out, this allows for Proxy flying. In other words, if the CONTESTANT is not present at the contest but has sent in his models
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Oct 12, 2008
                                                  --- In contestRoc@yahoogroups.com, "Eldred Pickett" <epickett@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 2:03 AM, Gary Crowell <vcp@...> wrote:
                                                  > > Hmmm, that paragraph doesn't say that the flyer must build the model.
                                                  >
                                                  > It doesn't? "> Each contestant must completely construct the model
                                                  > he/she uses in competition."
                                                  >
                                                  > Sounds like the flyer has to build it to me...

                                                  Not exactly. As Chan pointed out, this allows for Proxy flying. In other words, if the
                                                  CONTESTANT is not present at the contest but has sent in his models to be proxy flown, the
                                                  FLYER is only the person presenting the rocket to the RSO and putting it on the pad. The
                                                  CONTESTANT must have built the rocket.

                                                  Greg
                                                • Eldred Pickett
                                                  ... Ok, so carry a cheap, easy kit with you, and let the other flyer assemble it with CA just to have another contestant. That gets you a valid entry, and
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Oct 21, 2008
                                                    On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Greg Poehlein <gpoehlein@...> wrote:
                                                    > --- In contestRoc@yahoogroups.com, "Eldred Pickett" <epickett@...> wrote:
                                                    >>
                                                    >> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 2:03 AM, Gary Crowell <vcp@...> wrote:
                                                    >> > Hmmm, that paragraph doesn't say that the flyer must build the model.
                                                    >>
                                                    >> It doesn't? "> Each contestant must completely construct the model
                                                    >> he/she uses in competition."
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Sounds like the flyer has to build it to me...
                                                    >
                                                    > Not exactly. As Chan pointed out, this allows for Proxy flying. In other words, if the
                                                    > CONTESTANT is not present at the contest but has sent in his models to be proxy flown, the
                                                    > FLYER is only the person presenting the rocket to the RSO and putting it on the pad. The
                                                    > CONTESTANT must have built the rocket.
                                                    >

                                                    Ok, so carry a cheap, easy kit with you, and let the other flyer
                                                    assemble it with CA just to have another contestant. That gets you a
                                                    valid entry, and satisfies the "contestant has to build the rocket"
                                                    rule. As a further incentive, let the other entrant keep the
                                                    rocket...<g>

                                                    Eldred
                                                    --
                                                    "In A Tornado, Even A Turkey Can Fly!"
                                                    - venture capitalist Eugene Kleiner
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