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Cluster of words to narrow meaning

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  • Leonardo Castro
    The language I m working on has the propriety of joining verbs (or nouns) together to narrow down its semantic field to the intersection between them. For
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 13, 2014
      The language I'm working on has the propriety of joining verbs (or nouns)
      together to narrow down its semantic field to the intersection between them.

      For instance, the verb "liefe" could mean "to love" or "to like". If you
      want to make sure that it's a love of the kind that you want to live
      together with the person, you could use the word "kuope" that means "to
      couple". So, "liefe kuope" could express "to be in love with". It could
      also mean "to love to couple" or "to like to be form a couple with", but I
      also have ways to exclude these possibilities if you want to be more
      specific.

      Well, I'm looking for ANADEWs or ACADEWs (ALADEWs in general). The most
      similar thing I can remember is Nicholas Ostler's description of how aztecs
      would repeat the same sentence with near-synonyms for the verbs.

      Até mais!

      Leonardo
    • James Kane
      This reminds me of languages with closed classes of verbs. Probably more like verb serialisation although not exactly. Try searching that up. Wikipedia gives
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 13, 2014
        This reminds me of languages with closed classes of verbs.

        Probably more like verb serialisation although not exactly. Try searching that up. Wikipedia gives examples with Hindi and Mandarin.

        James

        > On 14/03/2014, at 5:24 am, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...> wrote:
        >
        > The language I'm working on has the propriety of joining verbs (or nouns)
        > together to narrow down its semantic field to the intersection between them.
        >
        > For instance, the verb "liefe" could mean "to love" or "to like". If you
        > want to make sure that it's a love of the kind that you want to live
        > together with the person, you could use the word "kuope" that means "to
        > couple". So, "liefe kuope" could express "to be in love with". It could
        > also mean "to love to couple" or "to like to be form a couple with", but I
        > also have ways to exclude these possibilities if you want to be more
        > specific.
        >
        > Well, I'm looking for ANADEWs or ACADEWs (ALADEWs in general). The most
        > similar thing I can remember is Nicholas Ostler's description of how aztecs
        > would repeat the same sentence with near-synonyms for the verbs.
        >
        > Até mais!
        >
        > Leonardo
      • Leonardo Castro
        ... Thank you! Verb serialisation... That s it. The Wikipedia example in Nupe, Musa bé lá èbi. , Musa came took knife. , could be translated word by
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 13, 2014
          2014-03-13 20:13 GMT+01:00 James Kane <kanejam@...>:

          > This reminds me of languages with closed classes of verbs.
          >
          > Probably more like verb serialisation although not exactly. Try searching
          > that up. Wikipedia gives examples with Hindi and Mandarin.
          >

          Thank you! Verb serialisation... That's it.

          The Wikipedia example in Nupe,

          "Musa bé lá èbi." ,
          "Musa came took knife." ,

          could be translated word by word into my language. A possible difference is
          that, in my language, all the sentences with this structure would have the
          same subject AND the same object for both verbs, in a single event. The
          equation is the following:

          "he came knife" + "he took knife" = "he came took knife"

          That is, he came to the place where the knife was and he took it.



          > James
          >

          Até mais!

          Leonardo



          >
          > > On 14/03/2014, at 5:24 am, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > The language I'm working on has the propriety of joining verbs (or nouns)
          > > together to narrow down its semantic field to the intersection between
          > them.
          > >
          > > For instance, the verb "liefe" could mean "to love" or "to like". If you
          > > want to make sure that it's a love of the kind that you want to live
          > > together with the person, you could use the word "kuope" that means "to
          > > couple". So, "liefe kuope" could express "to be in love with". It could
          > > also mean "to love to couple" or "to like to be form a couple with", but
          > I
          > > also have ways to exclude these possibilities if you want to be more
          > > specific.
          > >
          > > Well, I'm looking for ANADEWs or ACADEWs (ALADEWs in general). The most
          > > similar thing I can remember is Nicholas Ostler's description of how
          > aztecs
          > > would repeat the same sentence with near-synonyms for the verbs.
          > >
          > > Até mais!
          > >
          > > Leonardo
          >
        • Jim Henry
          On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Leonardo Castro ... gjâ-zym-byn does this sometimes with nouns, not so much with verbs. E.g.: kâj-kô
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 13, 2014
            On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Leonardo Castro
            <leolucas1980@...> wrote:
            > The language I'm working on has the propriety of joining verbs (or nouns)
            > together to narrow down its semantic field to the intersection between them.

            gjâ-zym-byn does this sometimes with nouns, not so much with verbs. E.g.:

            kâj-kô store, market
            twâ-cu-ĵwa bookstore, library
            bwĭl-syj-zô to lend (to give the use of)
            kâj-kô twâ-cu-ĵwa bookstore
            bwĭl-syj-kô twâ-cu-ĵwa lending library

            gzb sometimes strings two verbs together, but this is maybe more like
            an auxiliary verb construction than a serial verb construction (even
            though there are no infinitives in the language). Actually, it
            depends on the particular sequence of verbs whether it's more like an
            auxiliary verb + main verb sequence or a serial verb where two
            features or phases of an event are described by different verbs.

            --
            Jim Henry
            http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
            http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
          • Roger Mills
            As someone else pointed out, joining verbs is probably the  serial verb .  Constructions involving nouns might be a form of compounding. Offhand I can t
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 15, 2014
              As someone else pointed out, joining verbs is probably the  "serial verb".  Constructions involving nouns might be a form of compounding. Offhand I can't think of any Noun+Noun compounds, but they must exist.... Certainly Adjective+Noun are common in Engl, like blackbird, blueberry etc.  (and N+Adj. in languages with the reverse order), as well as Verb+Noun (or vice versa, like Span. "rascacielos" 'skyscraper' (actually there's an Engl. N+N example, here's some more that popped into my mind: teaspoon, whorehouse, wheelbase, horsepower).

              Indonesian and its relatives (and other languages, I'm sure) can have compounds like N+Adj e.g. "rumah sakit" (house + sick) = 'hospital' or N+Vb "rumah makan" (house + eat) = 'restaurant'. (Under normal Indo. rules, "rumah sakit" ought to mean 'sick house' just as "anak sakit" means 'sick child', but it doesn't. "Rumah makan" OTOH doesn't make sense by normal rules).





              On Saturday, March 15, 2014 3:19 AM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...> wrote:

              The language I'm working on has the propriety of joining verbs (or nouns)
              together to narrow down its semantic field to the intersection between them.

              For instance, the verb "liefe" could mean "to love" or "to like". If you
              want to make sure that it's a love of the kind that you want to live
              together with the person, you could use the word "kuope" that means "to
              couple". So, "liefe kuope" could express "to be in love with". It could
              also mean "to love to couple" or "to like to be form a couple with", but I
              also have ways to exclude these possibilities if you want to be more
              specific.

              Well, I'm looking for ANADEWs or ACADEWs (ALADEWs in general). The most
              similar thing I can remember is Nicholas Ostler's description of how aztecs
              would repeat the same sentence with near-synonyms for the verbs.

              Até mais!

              Leonardo
            • David McCann
              On Sat, 15 Mar 2014 07:47:06 -0700 ... And, of course, compound verbs. In my auxlang days (said he, blushing) I collected examples of compound verbs from
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 15, 2014
                On Sat, 15 Mar 2014 07:47:06 -0700
                Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:

                > As someone else pointed out, joining verbs is probably the  "serial
                > verb".

                And, of course, compound verbs. In my auxlang days (said he, blushing)
                I collected examples of compound verbs from Chinese and Japanese,
                since auxlangs like Esperanto lack them as a result of their SAE
                nature. Good examples from my auxlang database (never throw anything
                away) are
                unite-stand : erect
                accumulate-insert : load
                hold-move : carry
                buy-close : corner the market
              • Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
                ... For nouns, my own Moten has the particularity of having something that could be called clarification compounds , i.e. compounds created specifically to
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 17, 2014
                  On 13 March 2014 17:24, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...> wrote:

                  > The language I'm working on has the propriety of joining verbs (or nouns)
                  > together to narrow down its semantic field to the intersection between
                  > them.
                  >
                  >
                  For nouns, my own Moten has the particularity of having something that
                  could be called "clarification compounds", i.e. compounds created
                  specifically to narrow down the specific shade of meaning one wants to use.
                  For instance, look at the noun _|no_: "ice, frost, snow, icy cold, glass
                  (material)". A bit broad, what? ;) But when one wants to specifically talk
                  about glass, one can use the compound _|nolum_, literally "fake ice". _|No_
                  can still be used to mean "glass", but one can disambiguate if necessary by
                  using _|nolum_.
                  Another example, closer to your idea of joining two nouns to narrow down
                  the semantic field to their intersection, is _|za|not_. _|Not_ is another
                  one of those broad nouns, and means "source, origin, cornerstone, principal
                  part, essential, main, chief, head (of a body)". _|Zaj_ means "start,
                  beginning". Combining them forms _|za|not_: "source, origin". Like the
                  previous example, it is used to disambiguate, when one wants to focus on
                  the "source" meaning of _|not_.


                  >
                  > Well, I'm looking for ANADEWs or ACADEWs (ALADEWs in general). The most
                  > similar thing I can remember is Nicholas Ostler's description of how aztecs
                  > would repeat the same sentence with near-synonyms for the verbs.
                  >
                  >
                  For an ANADEW, you might want to look at the etymology of many Chinese
                  2-syllable nouns. Often, their meaning looks like the intersection of the
                  meanings of the two syllables they are made of (sometimes the two syllables
                  seem to be pure synonyms!), and I've heard that many of them may have been
                  "clarification compounds", somewhat like the Moten ones, but developed not
                  because of nouns with overbroad meanings, but because sound changes were
                  creating too many homophones.
                  --
                  Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
                  President of the Language Creation Society (http://conlang.org/)

                  Personal Website: http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
                • Leonardo Castro
                  2014-03-13 22:42 GMT+01:00 Jim Henry : On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Leonardo Castro ... them. gjâ-zym-byn does this sometimes
                  Message 8 of 8 , Mar 17, 2014
                    2014-03-13 22:42 GMT+01:00 Jim Henry <jimhenry1973@...>:
                    On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Leonardo Castro
                    <leolucas1980@...> wrote:
                    > The language I'm working on has the propriety of joining verbs (or nouns)
                    > together to narrow down its semantic field to the intersection between
                    them.

                    gjâ-zym-byn does this sometimes with nouns, not so much with verbs. E.g.:

                    kâj-kô store, market
                    twâ-cu-ĵwa bookstore, library
                    bwĭl-syj-zô to lend (to give the use of)
                    kâj-kô twâ-cu-ĵwa bookstore
                    bwĭl-syj-kô twâ-cu-ĵwa lending library

                    gzb sometimes strings two verbs together, but this is maybe more like
                    an auxiliary verb construction than a serial verb construction (even
                    though there are no infinitives in the language). Actually, it
                    depends on the particular sequence of verbs whether it's more like an
                    auxiliary verb + main verb sequence or a serial verb where two
                    features or phases of an event are described by different verbs.

                    In my language, a verb without a "specifier" may be in any mood, and that's
                    why "love-date" could mean "to be in love with" even if it's an unrequited
                    love, because "to date" would be in a desirative (I hope it exists) mood.
                    But it could also mean "to love to date" because in this case the subject
                    also loves the object in a way and date it (my language doesn't have
                    intransitive verbs; a verb without an object must have a desinence that
                    means that the object is unspecified or nonexistent).


                    2014-03-15 17:22 GMT+01:00 David McCann <david@...>:

                    > On Sat, 15 Mar 2014 07:47:06 -0700
                    > Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > As someone else pointed out, joining verbs is probably the "serial
                    > > verb".
                    >
                    > And, of course, compound verbs. In my auxlang days (said he, blushing)
                    > I collected examples of compound verbs from Chinese and Japanese,
                    > since auxlangs like Esperanto lack them as a result of their SAE
                    > nature. Good examples from my auxlang database (never throw anything
                    > away) are
                    > unite-stand : erect
                    > accumulate-insert : load
                    > hold-move : carry
                    > buy-close : corner the market
                    >

                    Nice! I think those combinations could work in my language as well. I had
                    also considered the combination "hold-move", but "hold" and "carry" would
                    be actually the same verb, with possible specifiers again. A specific
                    "carry" could be obtained by means of "hold-(trans-(place))".

                    2014-03-17 13:45 GMT+01:00 Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <tsela.cg@...
                    >:

                    > On 13 March 2014 17:24, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > The language I'm working on has the propriety of joining verbs (or nouns)
                    > > together to narrow down its semantic field to the intersection between
                    > > them.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > For nouns, my own Moten has the particularity of having something that
                    > could be called "clarification compounds", i.e. compounds created
                    > specifically to narrow down the specific shade of meaning one wants to use.
                    > For instance, look at the noun _|no_: "ice, frost, snow, icy cold, glass
                    > (material)". A bit broad, what? ;)
                    >

                    In my language, I would maybe describe it as "transparent substance".


                    >
                    > But when one wants to specifically talk
                    > about glass, one can use the compound _|nolum_, literally "fake ice". _|No_
                    > can still be used to mean "glass", but one can disambiguate if necessary by
                    > using _|nolum_.
                    > Another example, closer to your idea of joining two nouns to narrow down
                    > the semantic field to their intersection, is _|za|not_. _|Not_ is another
                    > one of those broad nouns, and means "source, origin, cornerstone, principal
                    > part, essential, main, chief, head (of a body)". _|Zaj_ means "start,
                    > beginning". Combining them forms _|za|not_: "source, origin". Like the
                    > previous example, it is used to disambiguate, when one wants to focus on
                    > the "source" meaning of _|not_.
                    >

                    Interesting... As I use verbs where English uses prepositions, my verb
                    serialization could end up creating compounds that would ressemble French
                    "apporter, emporter, rapporter, amener, emener, ramener...".


                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Well, I'm looking for ANADEWs or ACADEWs (ALADEWs in general). The most
                    > > similar thing I can remember is Nicholas Ostler's description of how
                    > aztecs
                    > > would repeat the same sentence with near-synonyms for the verbs.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > For an ANADEW, you might want to look at the etymology of many Chinese
                    > 2-syllable nouns. Often, their meaning looks like the intersection of the
                    > meanings of the two syllables they are made of (sometimes the two syllables
                    > seem to be pure synonyms!), and I've heard that many of them may have been
                    > "clarification compounds", somewhat like the Moten ones, but developed not
                    > because of nouns with overbroad meanings, but because sound changes were
                    > creating too many homophones.
                    >

                    That's comprehensible... Once I started studying a little Chinese just to
                    not be a complete ignorant of it, and discovered that it was possible to
                    search for Chinese words on Wiktionary using pinyin, but frequently I found
                    a list with dozens of characters, some of them with multiple meanings.
                    E.g.:

                    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sh%C4%AB
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