Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

The new language

Expand Messages
  • Sylvia Sotomayor
    I ve posted here before about the new language, currently called Sodna-lɛni. It s undergone some (many) changes since the last time I mentioned it, and even
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 2, 2014
      I've posted here before about the new language, currently called
      Sodna-lɛni. It's undergone some (many) changes since the last time I
      mentioned it, and even some changes since I used it for the latest
      relay.

      The new grammar document (along with a history of the development of
      the language) is available at http://fiatlingua.org/2014/01/

      Comments are always appreciated. :-)

      -S
      --
      Sylvia Sotomayor

      The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.
    • qiihoskeh
      ... I am immortalized in a footnote! I may have some questions after I read it again, except about the phonology.
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 2, 2014
        On Thu, 2 Jan 2014 18:36:34 -0800, Sylvia Sotomayor <terjemar@...> wrote:

        >I've posted here before about the new language, currently called
        >Sodna-lɛni. It's undergone some (many) changes since the last time I
        >mentioned it, and even some changes since I used it for the latest
        >relay.
        >
        >The new grammar document (along with a history of the development of
        >the language) is available at http://fiatlingua.org/2014/01/
        >
        >Comments are always appreciated. :-)
        >
        >-S
        >--
        >Sylvia Sotomayor
        >
        >The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.

        I am immortalized in a footnote!

        I may have some questions after I read it again, except about the phonology.
      • Herman Miller
        ... It would be interesting to see some examples of the changes from earlier versions. I like the idea of a language with a closed class of verbs, and using
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 4, 2014
          On 1/2/2014 9:36 PM, Sylvia Sotomayor wrote:
          > I've posted here before about the new language, currently called
          > Sodna-lɛni. It's undergone some (many) changes since the last time I
          > mentioned it, and even some changes since I used it for the latest
          > relay.
          >
          > The new grammar document (along with a history of the development of
          > the language) is available at http://fiatlingua.org/2014/01/
          >
          > Comments are always appreciated. :-)

          It would be interesting to see some examples of the changes from earlier
          versions.

          I like the idea of a language with a closed class of verbs, and using
          the verbs to express motion makes sense. You could say that the
          prefixing adverbs allow you to add to the closed list of verb stems, but
          it looks like those adverbs are themselves a closed class.

          Using symbols for glosses takes some getting used to, but the nice thing
          is that you can quickly spot which word is the verb. I guess the hard
          part is learning how to use them, not remembering which symbol goes with
          which verb.
        • Sylvia Sotomayor
          ... Previous versions are available in the archives of this mailing list and as the LCC5 Relay and Relay 21 texts. The adverbs are a closed class, but I have
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 5, 2014
            On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 12:18 PM, Herman Miller <hmiller@...> wrote:
            > On 1/2/2014 9:36 PM, Sylvia Sotomayor wrote:
            >>
            >> I've posted here before about the new language, currently called
            >> Sodna-lɛni. It's undergone some (many) changes since the last time I
            >> mentioned it, and even some changes since I used it for the latest
            >> relay.
            >>
            >> The new grammar document (along with a history of the development of
            >> the language) is available at http://fiatlingua.org/2014/01/
            >>
            >> Comments are always appreciated. :-)
            >
            >
            > It would be interesting to see some examples of the changes from earlier
            > versions.
            >
            > I like the idea of a language with a closed class of verbs, and using the
            > verbs to express motion makes sense. You could say that the prefixing
            > adverbs allow you to add to the closed list of verb stems, but it looks like
            > those adverbs are themselves a closed class.
            >
            > Using symbols for glosses takes some getting used to, but the nice thing is
            > that you can quickly spot which word is the verb. I guess the hard part is
            > learning how to use them, not remembering which symbol goes with which verb.

            Previous versions are available in the archives of this mailing list
            and as the LCC5 Relay and Relay 21 texts.

            The adverbs are a closed class, but I have been rethinking which
            adverbs exactly could be in that class. And it is possible that the
            prefixing adverb class might become open.

            Yes. I found it helped my thinking, too, to use the symbols rather
            than try glossing with English words.

            -S



            --
            Sylvia Sotomayor

            The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.
          • qiihoskeh
            ... I have a few test sentences (substitute vocabulary as needed). I m curious about the translations. 1. The boy kicked the door shut. 2. The coffee isn t as
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 5, 2014
              On Thu, 2 Jan 2014 18:36:34 -0800, Sylvia Sotomayor <terjemar@...> wrote:

              >I've posted here before about the new language, currently called
              >Sodna-lɛni. It's undergone some (many) changes since the last time I
              >mentioned it, and even some changes since I used it for the latest
              >relay.
              >
              >The new grammar document (along with a history of the development of
              >the language) is available at http://fiatlingua.org/2014/01/
              >
              >Comments are always appreciated. :-)
              >
              >-S
              >--
              >Sylvia Sotomayor
              >
              >The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.

              I have a few test sentences (substitute vocabulary as needed). I'm curious about the translations.

              1. The boy kicked the door shut.
              2. The coffee isn't as hot.
              3. John ate more potatoes than Tom.
              4. John ate as many potatoes as tomatoes.
              5. He doesn't mind you seeing the giraffe.
              6. She didn't see any destruction.

              I could come up with some more.
            • C. Brickner
              I have a few test sentences (substitute vocabulary as needed). I m curious about the translations. 1. The boy kicked the door shut. 2. The coffee isn t as hot.
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 6, 2014
                I have a few test sentences (substitute vocabulary as needed). I'm curious about the translations.

                1. The boy kicked the door shut.
                2. The coffee isn't as hot.
                3. John ate more potatoes than Tom.
                4. John ate as many potatoes as tomatoes.
                5. He doesn't mind you seeing the giraffe.
                6. She didn't see any destruction.

                I could come up with some more.

                Why are you curious about these particular sentences?

                1. The boy kicked the door shut.

                hũsu ðũrom pãxom e-foka:
                boy-NOM door-ACC shut-ACC PAST-kick-IND

                First-time construction for me. The direct object is supposed to precede the verb immediately. However, had I written “pãxom ðũrom”, it would have meant “he kicked the shut door”. I suppose that “kick” in this case is a copulative verb.

                2. The coffee isn't as hot (as the milk).
                kavpǫ̃ȝo tı̨̃þo épi (ṡũþo épi) vũa ne:
                coffee-drink hot as (milk as) is-IND not

                3. John ate more potatoes than Tom.
                ȝóxanãnu tǫmũsə sóma ɱıɱeũmo þũrmon e-ẽda:
                John-NOM Thomas-GEN-EPEN in-comparison-to COMPAR~much turnips-ACC PAST-eat-IND

                4. John ate as many potatoes as tomatoes.
                ȝóxanãnu ɱeúməstãlo þũrmon meącõm sóma e-ẽda:
                John-NOM many-EPEN-EQUA turnips-ACC carrots-ACC in-comparison-to PAST-eat-ID

                5. He doesn't mind you seeing the giraffe.
                (nu)—nu (tu) goxmõrem nãki—teũa ne:
                he-NOM that you-NOM tall-horse-ACC see-REL mind-IND not

                Senjecas is prodrop.

                6. She didn't see any destruction.
                (nu) k̬(kʷ)ẽna õlam e-nãka ne:
                (she) any destruction-ACC PAST-see-IND not

                Thanks for the translation exercise.

                Charlie
              • Roger Mills
                I can do these in Kash without too many problems.... 1. andi ya/karak (i) ya/lipet findu/ni. boy 3/kick (and) 3/shut door/def (It seems a little more idiomatic
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 6, 2014
                  I can do these in Kash without too many problems....

                  1. andi ya/karak (i) ya/lipet findu/ni.
                  boy 3/kick (and) 3/shut door/def
                  (It seems a little more idiomatic with "and"..but serial verbs are OK.)
                  I'd like to do this with caka- 'accidental' forms but not sure it's licit....also that makes it sort-of passive--
                  findu/ni cakarak cakalipet andi/yi
                  door/def got.kicked got.closed boy/gen

                  2. The (tea) isn't as hot-- this isn't in my Engl, unless some comparison is present or at least implied by context (as hot as what?), so-
                  çup/nii ta timbani fasan
                  tea/def not enough hot "The tea isn't hot enough"

                  3. çenji ya/nahan lavi/ni uku alo re erek
                  Shenji 3/eat more/of "uku" than CONJ erek
                  (alo re... implies that what follows is the remains of a full sentence, i.e. ...than Erek ate)

                  4. çenji ya/nahan sambat uku aloni nayipañ
                  Shenji 3/eat so.much uku CONJ  "tomato-like" fruit
                  (difficult :-))) maybe: sambat uku sambat nayipañ would be better-- back to the drawing board.)

                  5. ta ya/fikas lire ha/tikas "cirafa"
                   neg. 3/object w.r.t./that 2/see "immediate loan word"

                  6. iye ta tikas tapes/ni acakrum / ambace (< aN+çakrum, aN+mace)
                    she neg. see none/of destruction /  damage
                  (acakrum has so many negative associations-- refers to the old Gwr nuclear war-- that we would prefer simple "damage"-- or maybe a new  word for "destroy" that is more neutral???)





                  On Sunday, January 5, 2014 11:15 PM, qiihoskeh <qiihoskeh@...> wrote:

                  On Thu, 2 Jan 2014 18:36:34 -0800, Sylvia Sotomayor <terjemar@...> wrote:

                  >I've posted here before about the new language, currently called
                  >Sodna-lɛni. It's undergone some (many) changes since the last time I
                  >mentioned it, and even some changes since I used it for the latest
                  >relay.
                  >
                  >The new grammar document (along with a history of the development of
                  >the language) is available at http://fiatlingua.org/2014/01/
                  >
                  >Comments are always appreciated. :-)
                  >
                  >-S
                  >--
                  >Sylvia Sotomayor
                  >
                  >The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.

                  I have a few test sentences (substitute vocabulary as needed). I'm curious about the translations.

                  1. The boy kicked the door shut.
                  2. The coffee isn't as hot.
                  3. John ate more potatoes than Tom.
                  4. John ate as many potatoes as tomatoes.
                  5. He doesn't mind you seeing the giraffe.
                  6. She didn't see any destruction.

                  I could come up with some more.
                • neo gu
                  ... They should be very interesting in Sylvia s new language. ... I would say instead that shut is a secondary predicate. ... The English in this one seems
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 6, 2014
                    On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 17:38:19 -0500, C. Brickner <tepeyachill@...> wrote:

                    >I have a few test sentences (substitute vocabulary as needed). I'm curious about the translations.
                    >
                    >1. The boy kicked the door shut.
                    >2. The coffee isn't as hot.
                    >3. John ate more potatoes than Tom.
                    >4. John ate as many potatoes as tomatoes.
                    >5. He doesn't mind you seeing the giraffe.
                    >6. She didn't see any destruction.
                    >
                    >I could come up with some more.
                    >
                    >Why are you curious about these particular sentences?

                    They should be very interesting in Sylvia's new language.

                    >1. The boy kicked the door shut.
                    >
                    >hũsu ðũrom pãxom e-foka:
                    >boy-NOM door-ACC shut-ACC PAST-kick-IND
                    >
                    >First-time construction for me. The direct object is supposed to precede the verb immediately. However, had I written “pãxom ðũrom”, it would have meant “he kicked the shut door”. I suppose that “kick” in this case is a copulative verb.
                    >
                    I would say instead that "shut" is a secondary predicate.

                    >2. The coffee isn't as hot (as the milk).
                    >kavpǫ̃ȝo tı̨̃þo épi (ṡũþo épi) vũa ne:
                    >coffee-drink hot as (milk as) is-IND not

                    The English in this one seems to be confusing people. It's short for, "The coffee isn't as hot as before."

                    >
                    >Thanks for the translation exercise.
                    >
                    >Charlie
                  • Sylvia Sotomayor
                    ... And I am almost done. I just need to look up one word in my dictionary which is not on my current computer, and then I can post the translations. So this
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 6, 2014
                      On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 4:17 PM, neo gu <qiihoskeh@...> wrote:
                      > On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 17:38:19 -0500, C. Brickner <tepeyachill@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >>I have a few test sentences (substitute vocabulary as needed). I'm curious about the translations.
                      >>
                      >>1. The boy kicked the door shut.
                      >>2. The coffee isn't as hot.
                      >>3. John ate more potatoes than Tom.
                      >>4. John ate as many potatoes as tomatoes.
                      >>5. He doesn't mind you seeing the giraffe.
                      >>6. She didn't see any destruction.
                      >>
                      >>I could come up with some more.
                      >>
                      >>Why are you curious about these particular sentences?
                      >
                      > They should be very interesting in Sylvia's new language.
                      >

                      And I am almost done. I just need to look up one word in my dictionary
                      which is not on my current computer, and then I can post the
                      translations. So this evening, my time, probably.


                      --
                      Sylvia Sotomayor

                      The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.
                    • Sylvia Sotomayor
                      ... OK. koda ma bana syudɨdɛn otni pogɨdɛn. boy 3P foot.MTsg gate.MTsg V(→).PRF shut.MTsg The boy’s foot (S) made the door (A) become shut (D/ADJ). ala
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 6, 2014
                        On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Sylvia Sotomayor <terjemar@...> wrote:
                        > On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 4:17 PM, neo gu <qiihoskeh@...> wrote:
                        >> On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 17:38:19 -0500, C. Brickner <tepeyachill@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >>>I have a few test sentences (substitute vocabulary as needed). I'm curious about the translations.
                        >>>
                        >>>1. The boy kicked the door shut.
                        >>>2. The coffee isn't as hot.
                        >>>3. John ate more potatoes than Tom.
                        >>>4. John ate as many potatoes as tomatoes.
                        >>>5. He doesn't mind you seeing the giraffe.
                        >>>6. She didn't see any destruction.
                        >>>
                        >>>I could come up with some more.
                        >>>
                        >>>Why are you curious about these particular sentences?
                        >>
                        >> They should be very interesting in Sylvia's new language.
                        >>
                        >
                        > And I am almost done. I just need to look up one word in my dictionary
                        > which is not on my current computer, and then I can post the
                        > translations. So this evening, my time, probably.
                        >
                        OK.

                        koda ma bana syudɨdɛn otni pogɨdɛn.
                        boy 3P foot.MTsg gate.MTsg V(→).PRF shut.MTsg
                        The boy’s foot (S) made the door (A) become shut (D/ADJ).

                        ala kavehas mɛttɛndɛ kyala bala.
                        now coffee out-V(∎).IMP hot NVS
                        Now the coffee (A) is less hot (D).

                        J ma kye aŋo pɛŋɨdi tono; T ma kye ubi tono.
                        J’s belly many potato.MTpl V(←).PRF; T’s belly less V(←).PRF
                        John (S) ate many potatoes (A), T (S) ate less (A).

                        J ma kye pɛŋɨdi=nɛn gadɨdi tono ŋyandatya.
                        J’s belly potato.MTpl=and apple.MTpl V(←).PRF same.number
                        John (S) ate potatoes (A) and apples (A) in the same number (ADV).

                        mava mɨdɛ tɛpa sɛdɛ ŋi doŋi sodda ono tɛlɛ.
                        3P.MTsg care.SSsg without V(|).IMP 2P eye.MTsg ceratops.MTsg V(←).IMP INF
                        He (A) is without care (A) (that) you (S) see the ceratops (A).

                        ma doŋi amba gubɨdi vutono tɛlɛ.
                        3P eye.MTsg some debris.MTpl NEG-V(←).PRF INF
                        She (S) did not see any debris (A).

                        Make sense? aŋo and ubi are like amba (which was in the grammar).
                        -S
                        --
                        Sylvia Sotomayor

                        The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.
                      • qiihoskeh
                        ... Excellent, thanks! I ll have to look at the grammar again for a couple abbreviations and to see which verb is used in #2, but mostly I m able to follow
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 6, 2014
                          On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 18:17:54 -0800, Sylvia Sotomayor <terjemar@...> wrote:

                          >On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 4:39 PM, Sylvia Sotomayor <terjemar@...> wrote:
                          >> On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 4:17 PM, neo gu <qiihoskeh@...> wrote:
                          >>> On Mon, 6 Jan 2014 17:38:19 -0500, C. Brickner <tepeyachill@...> wrote:
                          >>>
                          >>>>I have a few test sentences (substitute vocabulary as needed). I'm curious about the translations.
                          >>>>
                          >>>>1. The boy kicked the door shut.
                          >>>>2. The coffee isn't as hot.
                          >>>>3. John ate more potatoes than Tom.
                          >>>>4. John ate as many potatoes as tomatoes.
                          >>>>5. He doesn't mind you seeing the giraffe.
                          >>>>6. She didn't see any destruction.
                          >>>>
                          >>>>I could come up with some more.
                          >>>>
                          >>>>Why are you curious about these particular sentences?
                          >>>
                          >>> They should be very interesting in Sylvia's new language.
                          >>>
                          >>
                          >> And I am almost done. I just need to look up one word in my dictionary
                          >> which is not on my current computer, and then I can post the
                          >> translations. So this evening, my time, probably.
                          >>
                          >OK.
                          >
                          >koda ma bana syudɨdɛn otni pogɨdɛn.
                          >boy 3P foot.MTsg gate.MTsg V(→).PRF shut.MTsg
                          >The boy’s foot (S) made the door (A) become shut (D/ADJ).
                          >
                          >ala kavehas mɛttɛndɛ kyala bala.
                          >now coffee out-V(∎).IMP hot NVS
                          >Now the coffee (A) is less hot (D).
                          >
                          >J ma kye aŋo pɛŋɨdi tono; T ma kye ubi tono.
                          >J’s belly many potato.MTpl V(←).PRF; T’s belly less V(←).PRF
                          >John (S) ate many potatoes (A), T (S) ate less (A).
                          >
                          >J ma kye pɛŋɨdi=nɛn gadɨdi tono ŋyandatya.
                          >J’s belly potato.MTpl=and apple.MTpl V(←).PRF same.number
                          >John (S) ate potatoes (A) and apples (A) in the same number (ADV).
                          >
                          >mava mɨdɛ tɛpa sɛdɛ ŋi doŋi sodda ono tɛlɛ.
                          >3P.MTsg care.SSsg without V(|).IMP 2P eye.MTsg ceratops.MTsg V(←).IMP INF
                          >He (A) is without care (A) (that) you (S) see the ceratops (A).
                          >
                          >ma doŋi amba gubɨdi vutono tɛlɛ.
                          >3P eye.MTsg some debris.MTpl NEG-V(←).PRF INF
                          >She (S) did not see any debris (A).
                          >
                          >Make sense? aŋo and ubi are like amba (which was in the grammar).
                          >-S
                          >--
                          >Sylvia Sotomayor
                          >
                          >The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.

                          Excellent, thanks! I'll have to look at the grammar again for a couple abbreviations and to see which verb is used in #2, but mostly I'm able to follow this. I'm trying to make my newest language less conventional (lately I feel I'm just reshuffling the same pieces) and this is a fresh approach.
                        • qiihoskeh
                          I should post my own translations: 1. Prf-shut door Erg-N1-kick boy The boy kicked the door shut. 2. LT-hot coffee The coffee isn t as hot. 3.
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jan 7, 2014
                            I should post my own translations:

                            1. Prf-shut door Erg-N1-kick boy
                            The boy kicked the door shut.

                            2. LT-hot coffee
                            The coffee isn't as hot.

                            3. Prf-Ins-stomach=Rfx potato GT-many Erg-John Cpr Erg-Tom
                            John ate more potatoes than Tom.

                            4. Prf-Ins-stomach John potato GT-many Cpr tomato
                            John ate as many potatoes as tomatoes.

                            5. Biv-VP=3A N1-Ins-eye=2 giraffe
                            He doesn't mind you seeing the giraffe.

                            6. Fal-Ins-eye=3A N0-destroy=NR
                            She didn't see any destruction.

                            Biv- derives bivalent verb from modal
                            Erg- ergative-instrumental case
                            Fal- negative result
                            GT- greater degree
                            Ins- derives bivalent verb from body part word
                            LT- lesser degree
                            N0- nominalizer
                            N1- complementizer
                            Prf- complete result

                            Cpr precedes standard of comparison
                            VP volitional possibility (willing to)

                            =2 2nd person pronoun
                            =3A 3rd person animate pronoun
                            =NR non-referential determiner
                            =Rfx reflexive pronoun
                          • David McCann
                            Two of the members of Greenberg s disputed Dene-Caucasian family are Na-Dene and Yeniseian. A recent study has claimed more evidence for their relationship:
                            Message 13 of 14 , Mar 12, 2014
                              Two of the members of Greenberg's disputed Dene-Caucasian family are
                              Na-Dene and Yeniseian. A recent study has claimed more evidence for
                              their relationship:
                              http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0091722
                            • John Q
                              This new evidence implying a westward back-migration for Yeniseian from Beringia (as opposed to a purely eastward migration into North America from the
                              Message 14 of 14 , Mar 13, 2014
                                This new evidence implying a westward back-migration for Yeniseian from Beringia (as opposed to a purely eastward migration into North America from the Yeniseian area) makes sense to me, considering how different the Yeniseian languages are from the surrounding Uralic and Altaic languages. It makes sense that Yeniseian would be a more recently arrived interloper rather than being an Ur-Sprache area for Na-Dene.

                                --John Q.
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.