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past and future nouns

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  • qiihoskeh
    For my latest project, I m thinking of making each time-when noun either past or future (except for now ). Some already are, like yesterday (past) and
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 17, 2013
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      For my latest project, I'm thinking of making each time-when noun either past or future (except for "now"). Some already are, like "yesterday" (past) and "tomorrow" (future). Others, like "then" or "when?" would come in pairs of explicitly marked words, so that non-present tense would be specified by the noun or pronoun. I'm wondering if there's an ANADEW or other precedent for any of this.

      Other details: The time-when words may take the adverbial case or they can act as complements whose subject is the nominalized clause (or action nominal construction). Currently, I also have a scheme specifying aspect or tense using auxiliary words; these also use the nominalized clause.
    • Padraic Brown
      From: qiihoskeh   ... I ve always liked this kind of deixis and have done pairs of past/future when and then as well. As for ANADEW,
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 18, 2013
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        From: qiihoskeh <qiihoskeh@...>

         
        > For my latest project, I'm thinking of making each time-when noun either
        > past or future (except for "now"). Some already are, like
        > "yesterday" (past) and "tomorrow" (future). Others, like
        > "then" or "when?" would come in pairs of explicitly marked
        > words, so that non-present tense would be specified by the noun or pronoun.
        > I'm wondering if there's an ANADEW or other precedent for any of this.

        I've always liked this kind of deixis and have done pairs of past/future when and
        then as well.

        As for ANADEW, anyone who's ever known or been a teenage boy knows that
        "now" has deictic echoes rather far into the future:

        mother: Clean up your room now! It's a mess!
        boy: All right, I'll do it now!

        Twenty minutes later, the room is still a mess and the boy is zonked in bed.

        mother: Did you clean up your room?
        boy: I'm doing it!

        Clearly Time flows quite differently within the adolescent male brain, where it's
        always NOW, and even when he says he's doing something now, he probably means
        he'll actually get around to it sometime next decade.

        Seriously, now-recent.past and now-near.future is quite a handy distinction. We
        do this in English by saying things like "I've just now eaten the best mac and cheese
        in the history of the culinary arts!" and "They say they'll be arriving any moment now."

        Clearly, "now" doesn't mean "this very picosecond" -- there's a little span of time in
        the recent past and the very near future that still counts as NOW.
         
        Padraic
      • Njenfalgar
        2013/10/18 qiihoskeh ... Vietnamese makes a distinction between when? past and future. The details are quite messy, but the dummies
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 18, 2013
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          2013/10/18 qiihoskeh <qiihoskeh@...>

          > For my latest project, I'm thinking of making each time-when noun either
          > past or future (except for "now"). Some already are, like "yesterday"
          > (past) and "tomorrow" (future). Others, like "then" or "when?" would come
          > in pairs of explicitly marked words, so that non-present tense would be
          > specified by the noun or pronoun. I'm wondering if there's an ANADEW or
          > other precedent for any of this.
          >
          > Other details: The time-when words may take the adverbial case or they can
          > act as complements whose subject is the nominalized clause (or action
          > nominal construction). Currently, I also have a scheme specifying aspect or
          > tense using auxiliary words; these also use the nominalized clause.


          Vietnamese makes a distinction between "when?" past and future. The details
          are quite messy, but the dummies version is that they are the same word,
          but placed at the beginning of the sentence for future and at the end for
          past.

          David

          --
          Yésináne gika asahukúka ha'u Kusikéla-Kísu yesahuwese witi nale lálu wíke
          uhu tu tinitíhi lise tesahuwese. Lise yésináne, lina, ikéwiyéwa etinizáwa
          búwubúwu niyi tutelíhi uhu yegeka.

          http://njenfalgar.conlang.org/
        • Roger Mills
          The only ANADEW I can think of might be in Mori (E.central Sulawesi, Indonesia) where the personal pronouns have different forms depending on tense of the
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 18, 2013
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            The only ANADEW I can think of might be in Mori (E.central Sulawesi, Indonesia) where the personal pronouns have different forms depending on "tense" of the main verb-- IIRC (not totally sure about the 'future' form, off the top of my head)--

            aku mongkaa 'I eat, am eating'
            ongkude (ongkue?) mongkaa 'I will eat' -- but I think this should actually be viewd as irrealis.




            ________________________________
            From: qiihoskeh <qiihoskeh@...>
            To: CONLANG@...
            Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:16 PM
            Subject: past and future nouns


            For my latest project, I'm thinking of making each time-when noun either past or future (except for "now"). Some already are, like "yesterday" (past) and "tomorrow" (future). Others, like "then" or "when?" would come in pairs of explicitly marked words, so that non-present tense would be specified by the noun or pronoun. I'm wondering if there's an ANADEW or other precedent for any of this.

            Other details: The time-when words may take the adverbial case or they can act as complements whose subject is the nominalized clause (or action nominal construction). Currently, I also have a scheme specifying aspect or tense using auxiliary words; these also use the nominalized clause.
          • Wm Annis
            ... Hausa subject pronouns are similar. http://aflang.humnet.ucla.edu/Hausa/Hausa_online_grammar/Pronouns/pronouns.html -- wm
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 18, 2013
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              On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:
              > The only ANADEW I can think of might be in Mori
              > (E.central Sulawesi, Indonesia) where the personal pronouns
              > have different forms depending on "tense" of the main verb--
              > IIRC (not totally sure about the 'future' form, off the top of my
              > head)--

              Hausa subject pronouns are similar.

              http://aflang.humnet.ucla.edu/Hausa/Hausa_online_grammar/Pronouns/pronouns.html

              --
              wm
            • Siva Kalyan
              There are two distinct phenomena which could be relevant here. One is what s been brought up so far, where the same word is used to indicate both the person of
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 18, 2013
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                There are two distinct phenomena which could be relevant here. One is what's been brought up so far, where the same word is used to indicate both the person of the subject and the tense/aspect/mood (TAM) of the clause, much as with English I'll, you're, etc. (though are we sure that such words are actually pronouns? or rather auxiliaries with person marking?).

                The other is what's been written about under the heading of "nominal tense", where what is at issue is not the temporal location of the event denoted by the clause, but rather the temporal location of the nominal referent itself: cf. English expressions such as ex-wife and bride-to-be. The classic article on this seems to be the following: http://www.letras.ufmg.br/fbonfim/Pdfs/Biblioteca%20Virtual/Nordlinger%20and%20Sadler%20Nominal%20Tense%20inCross-Linguistic%20Perspective.pdf.

                Neither of these, though, is directly related to the main issue of whether natural languages have closed-class deictic words (analogous to here and there and where?) which are explicitly specified for past or future time reference. I don't have an answer for this.

                Siva

                On 19 October 2013 at 02:30:42, Wm Annis (wm.annis@...) wrote:

                On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:
                > The only ANADEW I can think of might be in Mori
                > (E.central Sulawesi, Indonesia) where the personal pronouns
                > have different forms depending on "tense" of the main verb--
                > IIRC (not totally sure about the 'future' form, off the top of my
                > head)--

                Hausa subject pronouns are similar.

                http://aflang.humnet.ucla.edu/Hausa/Hausa_online_grammar/Pronouns/pronouns.html

                --
                wm
              • Leonardo Castro
                Tupi language (and similar for its relatives): -rama : future suffix for nouns -puera : past suffix for nouns E.g. mena : husband mena + rama = menama :
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 19, 2013
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                  Tupi language (and similar for its relatives):

                  -rama : future suffix for nouns
                  -puera : past suffix for nouns

                  E.g.

                  mena : husband
                  mena + rama = menama : fiancé (future husband)
                  mena + rama + pûera = menambûera : ex-fiancé

                  ybyra-pûera : dead tree (past tree)

                  (then "Ibirapuera", São Paulo's park and neighbourhood)

                  ybyra-rama : seed (future tree); sapling


                  Até mais!

                  Leonardo


                  2013/10/18 Siva Kalyan <sivakalyan.princeton@...>:
                  > There are two distinct phenomena which could be relevant here. One is what's been brought up so far, where the same word is used to indicate both the person of the subject and the tense/aspect/mood (TAM) of the clause, much as with English I'll, you're, etc. (though are we sure that such words are actually pronouns? or rather auxiliaries with person marking?).
                  >
                  > The other is what's been written about under the heading of "nominal tense", where what is at issue is not the temporal location of the event denoted by the clause, but rather the temporal location of the nominal referent itself: cf. English expressions such as ex-wife and bride-to-be. The classic article on this seems to be the following: http://www.letras.ufmg.br/fbonfim/Pdfs/Biblioteca%20Virtual/Nordlinger%20and%20Sadler%20Nominal%20Tense%20inCross-Linguistic%20Perspective.pdf.
                  >
                  > Neither of these, though, is directly related to the main issue of whether natural languages have closed-class deictic words (analogous to here and there and where?) which are explicitly specified for past or future time reference. I don't have an answer for this.
                  >
                  > Siva
                  >
                  > On 19 October 2013 at 02:30:42, Wm Annis (wm.annis@...) wrote:
                  >
                  > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:
                  >> The only ANADEW I can think of might be in Mori
                  >> (E.central Sulawesi, Indonesia) where the personal pronouns
                  >> have different forms depending on "tense" of the main verb--
                  >> IIRC (not totally sure about the 'future' form, off the top of my
                  >> head)--
                  >
                  > Hausa subject pronouns are similar.
                  >
                  > http://aflang.humnet.ucla.edu/Hausa/Hausa_online_grammar/Pronouns/pronouns.html
                  >
                  > --
                  > wm
                • Leonardo Castro
                  ... BTW, is the analogy in the pairs then-when, there-where and that-what a coincidence?
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 19, 2013
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                    2013/10/18 Njenfalgar <njenfalgar@...>:
                    > 2013/10/18 qiihoskeh <qiihoskeh@...>
                    >
                    >> For my latest project, I'm thinking of making each time-when noun either
                    >> past or future (except for "now"). Some already are, like "yesterday"
                    >> (past) and "tomorrow" (future). Others, like "then" or "when?" would come

                    BTW, is the analogy in the pairs then-when, there-where and that-what
                    a coincidence?
                  • Siva Kalyan
                    I think it goes back to Proto-Indo-European (have to check).
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 19, 2013
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                      I think it goes back to Proto-Indo-European (have to check).

                      2013年10月20日日曜日 Leonardo Castro leolucas1980@...:

                      > 2013/10/18 Njenfalgar <njenfalgar@... <javascript:;>>:
                      > > 2013/10/18 qiihoskeh <qiihoskeh@... <javascript:;>>
                      > >
                      > >> For my latest project, I'm thinking of making each time-when noun either
                      > >> past or future (except for "now"). Some already are, like "yesterday"
                      > >> (past) and "tomorrow" (future). Others, like "then" or "when?" would
                      > come
                      >
                      > BTW, is the analogy in the pairs then-when, there-where and that-what
                      > a coincidence?
                      >
                    • Leonardo Castro
                      ... I should have cited my source for this: http://br.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/tupi/message/3092
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 19, 2013
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                        2013/10/19 Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...>:
                        > Tupi language (and similar for its relatives):
                        >
                        > -rama : future suffix for nouns
                        > -puera : past suffix for nouns
                        >
                        > E.g.
                        >
                        > mena : husband
                        > mena + rama = menama : fiancé (future husband)
                        > mena + rama + pûera = menambûera : ex-fiancé

                        I should have cited my source for this:
                        http://br.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/tupi/message/3092

                        >
                        > ybyra-pûera : dead tree (past tree)
                        >
                        > (then "Ibirapuera", São Paulo's park and neighbourhood)
                        >
                        > ybyra-rama : seed (future tree); sapling
                        >
                        >
                        > Até mais!
                        >
                        > Leonardo
                        >
                        >
                        > 2013/10/18 Siva Kalyan <sivakalyan.princeton@...>:
                        >> There are two distinct phenomena which could be relevant here. One is what's been brought up so far, where the same word is used to indicate both the person of the subject and the tense/aspect/mood (TAM) of the clause, much as with English I'll, you're, etc. (though are we sure that such words are actually pronouns? or rather auxiliaries with person marking?).
                        >>
                        >> The other is what's been written about under the heading of "nominal tense", where what is at issue is not the temporal location of the event denoted by the clause, but rather the temporal location of the nominal referent itself: cf. English expressions such as ex-wife and bride-to-be. The classic article on this seems to be the following: http://www.letras.ufmg.br/fbonfim/Pdfs/Biblioteca%20Virtual/Nordlinger%20and%20Sadler%20Nominal%20Tense%20inCross-Linguistic%20Perspective.pdf.
                        >>
                        >> Neither of these, though, is directly related to the main issue of whether natural languages have closed-class deictic words (analogous to here and there and where?) which are explicitly specified for past or future time reference. I don't have an answer for this.
                        >>
                        >> Siva
                        >>
                        >> On 19 October 2013 at 02:30:42, Wm Annis (wm.annis@...) wrote:
                        >>
                        >> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:
                        >>> The only ANADEW I can think of might be in Mori
                        >>> (E.central Sulawesi, Indonesia) where the personal pronouns
                        >>> have different forms depending on "tense" of the main verb--
                        >>> IIRC (not totally sure about the 'future' form, off the top of my
                        >>> head)--
                        >>
                        >> Hausa subject pronouns are similar.
                        >>
                        >> http://aflang.humnet.ucla.edu/Hausa/Hausa_online_grammar/Pronouns/pronouns.html
                        >>
                        >> --
                        >> wm
                      • Padraic Brown
                        From: Siva Kalyan   ... Yep. They all go back to to- and kwo-, roots that give all sorts of pronouns and determiners in later
                        Message 11 of 11 , Oct 19, 2013
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                          From: Siva Kalyan <sivakalyan.princeton@...>

                           
                          > I think it goes back to Proto-Indo-European (have to check).

                          Yep. They all go back to to- and kwo-, roots that give all sorts of pronouns
                          and determiners in later languages.

                          Padraic

                          >
                          > 2013年10月20日日曜日 Leonardo Castro leolucas1980@...:
                          >
                          >> 2013/10/18 Njenfalgar <njenfalgar@... <javascript:;>>:
                          >> > 2013/10/18 qiihoskeh <qiihoskeh@... <javascript:;>>
                          >
                          >> >
                          >> >> For my latest project, I'm thinking of making each time-when
                          > noun either
                          >> >> past or future (except for "now"). Some already are,
                          > like "yesterday"
                          >> >> (past) and "tomorrow" (future). Others, like
                          > "then" or "when?" would
                          >> come
                          >>
                          >> BTW, is the analogy in the pairs then-when, there-where and that-what
                          >> a coincidence?
                          >>
                          >
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