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Re: Choosing a word for "German"

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  • Padraic Brown
    ... Quite, though I d suspect something a little older, maybe something closer to harjamanniz. ... I think *ch- is what I was thinking of. Well, there do
    Message 1 of 25 , Sep 5, 2013
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      > If it is derived from 'herr man", then I guess it got to the
      > Romans through Celtic intermediaries.  Any sound changes
      > would have occurred, possibly in a Chinese whispers effect,
      > along the route.

      Quite, though I'd suspect something a little older, maybe
      something closer to harjamanniz.

      >>   If it were a borrowing, what might you
      >> have expected, something like *xermanus
      >> or something like that?

      > I would expect *hermanus or, maybe, *chermanus.

      I think *ch- is what I was thinking of.

      Well, there do appear to be Celtic cognates of *harjaz, so perhaps
      Caesar got hold of a Celtic word of some sort.

      Naturally, misapplied to sore throated and by now pharyngitic
      Germans who could not enunciate a sensible rebuttal to
      Caesar's improper appelation!


      > IIRC I've come across the Belgae designated variously as
      > Germanic, Celtic or mixed (not sure what the very latest thinking is).

      Yes, I've come across that as well.

      > > And Pennsylvania!

      > Darn it - yes, I forget the Pennsylvanian Dutch (from Westphalia IIRC?).

      Lancaster, actually. ;)))

      Seriously, according to the Font of All Knowledge, Pennsylvania
      Germans came mostly from Alsace, Palatinate and Switzerland.

      Padraic

      > Ray
    • R A Brown
      ... Well, yes - I didn t think the modern German words Herr and Mann were actual known to Caesar or his contemporaries. That s why herr man was between
      Message 2 of 25 , Sep 8, 2013
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        On 06/09/2013 01:59, Padraic Brown wrote:
        >> If it is derived from 'herr man", then I guess it got
        >> to the Romans through Celtic intermediaries. Any sound
        >> changes would have occurred, possibly in a Chinese
        >> whispers effect, along the route.
        >
        > Quite, though I'd suspect something a little older,
        > maybe something closer to harjamanniz.

        Well, yes - I didn't think the modern German words "Herr"
        and "Mann" were actual known to Caesar or his
        contemporaries. That's why "herr man" was between quotes; I
        was lazily quoting from Paul Schleitwiler's email of 4th
        August. Obviously the German of the 1st millennium BC was
        somewhat different ;)

        I know this thread began as a request for advice for Asirka.
        But presumably many other conlangs have had to confront the
        same issue. How have you gone about it?

        The various forms of 'briefscript' have never reached
        anything like a final form; but my intention was to use
        short forms based on the ISO country codes. So
        German/Germany would have been based on _de(u)-_ .

        TAKE of course simply takes ancient (or Byzantine) Greek
        forms without inflexions; thus we have:
        γερμανό (germanó) = German [person]
        γερμανικὀ (germanikó) = German [adj.]
        Γερμανία (Germanía) = Germany

        Outidic was inspired by Labbé's 17th century "Lingua
        Universalis." Of names of peoples & nations he wrote:
        "Nomina habitantium regiones provincias &c. prius quærenda
        sunt, ut ex iis loca ipsa formentur aliaque ex iis
        deriventur" (names of those inhabiting regions, provinces
        &c. are to be sought first so that from them may be formed
        the places themselves and other things may be derived." He
        give as an example:
        Franc = a French person
        Francè = France
        Francì = French [adj.] etc.

        he also gave: Angl, Scot, Europ, Span, followed by &c.,
        which does help us here. Especially as he had begun his
        section on proper nouns with: "Propria, cum hominum, tum
        locorum ex singulis linguis repeti possunt, ac modicè
        inflecti" (proper nouns both of people and of places can be
        found from individual languages with small modification).

        Outidic takes names from those of the people he nation among
        which they are used. They principles are given on:
        http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/Word_Forms.html#proper_names

        But, like Labbé, Dr Outis does not seem to have given a word
        for 'German'. As presumably he would have based it on
        German "Deutsch", modified to comply with Outidic
        phonotactics. It may have been *doiz (z = [dʒ])

        --
        Ray
        ==================================
        http://www.carolandray.plus.com
        ==================================
        "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
        for individual beings and events."
        [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
      • Padraic Brown
        ... Only somewhat! ... In the Eastlands, the usual hodgepodge of traditional names that come from time out of mind, appellations that may or may not have
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 8, 2013
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          >> Quite, though I'd suspect something a little older,

          >> maybe something closer to harjamanniz.
          >
          > Well, yes ... Obviously the German of the 1st millennium BC was
          > somewhat different  ;)

          Only somewhat!

          > I know this thread began as a request for advice for Asirka.
          > But presumably many other conlangs have had to confront the
          > same issue.  How have you gone about it?

          In the Eastlands, the usual hodgepodge of traditional names that come
          from time out of mind, appellations that may or may not have anything
          to do with what other people call themselves, some outright derogatory
          names, some broad geographical and ethnographical misapplications,
          some mythological names and a couple genuine ethnonyms thrown in
          for good measure.

          For example, the Rumen call their Germanic neighbors "Ontimonies",
          which itself is a rather old-fashioned way of saying "Avantimun-", there
          having been a couple broad areal sound shifts along the way. But the
          Avantimen call themselves, surprise, surprise, Thêdafulc, "People of
          this Country". Ônutumun was and ancient name for the region along
          the coasts of Ocean the people of which no longer live there, having
          sailed away many centuries ago. They left behind beautiful stonework
          and well laid out cities. Of their languages, few traces remain, mostly
          the names of places and rivers, most of which have now been quite
          mangled by the earlier newcomers and now applied to the Germanic
          people(s) living in those cities and lands. But that's okay, because the
          Avantimen themselves refer to their Italic neighbours as "Rumeliardo",
          after the name of a character in a play (Hulyús and Rumiyelle), the
          action of which takes place in Rumnias. They call themselves by
          various ancient regional names: Rumniai, Campagniai, Pountiai and
          Iconicai.

          Mentolatum, curiously enough, and quite apart for being named after
          a brand of ache-n-pain liniment, was one of the first places I knew much
          about in the World. Its original name was probably not Muntulatuz,
          but has become so after long association. It means "(Land that) Exports
          Mint": munt = mint, dlatun = send away, export. Their national motto
          is "Qua trevi, i-dnandu fi-londinno muntu og-ronu": Of herbs, for mankind’s
          wellbeing mint (is) the acme. Everyone else calls them some variant of
          this native name, e.g., Muntolazardo in Avantimannish, Menthomanni in
          Rumnian.

          The Talarians call themselves "Talaryâs", "Lords of the Earth". Everyone
          else calls them some variation. They, as well as the Husickites, Heclans
          and some others in the region are also called "Oritanians", or account of
          that being the name of the region their countries are in. Oriata was the
          name of an ancient country as well as language family.

          Daine have usually been called "Wildings" (nice) or "Bird People"
          (not so nice) depending and rarely are accorded different ethnic
          or national names.  They call themselves by a myriad of ethnic, regional,
          national, tribal and family names, which have traditionally only been much
          used by anthropologers. The name Daine itself comes from an ancient
          word, tana, meaning "person"(*).  The people of Westmarche, for example,
          are Sharrundaine, the people whose eyes "shine like Selanna", the bright
          blue and green little sister of Gea. Most of the Daine of the Eastlands are
          Troaghladaine, the "people who serve", from an old word meaning slave.
          None now recall why this should be so. In the marches to the east and
          southeast of Westmarche, there live some "dog-faced Daine", who have
          long faces and exaggerated canines. Dunno what they call themselves.
          In Avantimannish, they are properly called Dênez. The Daine of
          Auntimoany call themselves Hautherdaine which means "people of seas
          and ships", and the Men around them call them "searats and deep divers"
          with the utmost of respect. They are fine mariners and have a practical
          monopoly on the diving and recovery industries. The Men of Auntimoany
          also call the Westmarchers "skyboyos", and with largely the same sense
          of awe. They are top rate aviators and are the inventors of the great
          airships that wander into the skies of the Uttermost West, or else beyond
          the stretches of Ocean towards the sunrise.

          (*) The Daine, in the most ancient times, knew only of tana (speaking
          ones, and could be related to the root word tanal, tongue) and namay
          (non-speaking ones, either plant or animal). They didn't quite know
          what to make of the Teor when they first met them, nor Men when
          they burst on the scene. Even now, there is some continuing debate
          over whether the babble of so many Men ought to count as speaking
          proper, or just like the sounds animals make to communicate. Some
          have suggested that Men ought to be likened to the harcu, the animal
          that seems to talk, the Dog. (Harcain, to bark or yammer like a dog +
          -cu, an animal classifier)

          Just about anyplace farther west than Codeis, beyond which there is little
          more than Forest, is either unnamed or else has some dimly half-remembered
          legendary name. When you do come to (human) civilisation again, in the
          regions of Ehrran, and all those various Judeo / Buddho / Sindho / Parsawo-
          Helladic kingdoms that dot the region. The whole populace is known variously
          as "People of the Great Western Empire" or "Atelanteans" (both Hither and
          Yonder). There is, of course, no Great Western Empire (though pharaoh
          (Ankh-Alexandra IV (peace, long life and everlasting her reign!)) might wish it
          were otherwise); this is just a catch-all term for a group of places so far away
          that they become mingled in the common expression. Anyway, after the great
          natural disasters the region has suffered, the subsequent wars and the
          environmental destruction her empire has wrought of late, it's small wonder she
          has any empire to rule over at all.

          > Outidic was inspired by Labbé's 17th century "Lingua
          > Universalis."  Of names of peoples & nations he wrote:
          > "Nomina habitantium regiones provincias &c. prius quærenda
          > sunt, ut ex iis loca ipsa formentur aliaque ex iis
          > deriventur" (names of those inhabiting regions, provinces
          > &c. are to be sought first so that from them may be formed
          > the places themselves and other things may be derived."  He
          > give as an example:
          > Franc = a French person
          > Francè = France
          > Francì = French [adj.] etc.

          There is something to be lauded in this: short, sweet and to the point!

          > Ray

          Padraic
        • C. Brickner
          Senjecas is a language spoken long before humans had settled down and begun to name the places where they live. For these later proper names Senjecas uses the
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 8, 2013
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            Senjecas is a language spoken long before humans had settled down and begun to name the places where they live. For these later proper names Senjecas uses the earliest names that I can find in the resources available to me. These names are then adjusted to Senjecan phonology.
            One of the several ways for forming these proper names is to add –as to the final consonant of the stem. Thus, Germany is ‘germanas’; Iraq is ‘uruĸas’. The inhabitant is ‘germanus’; the adjective is ‘germanis’.
            Another way is to add ‘kyunas’, country, land, to the name of the people. Thus, Belgium is ‘belgëĸyunas’, the Czech Republic (Bohemia) is ‘boiĸyunas’. In these cases, the adjective would be ‘belgus’, the adjective ‘belgis’.
            Charlie

            ----- Original Message -----
            On 06/09/2013 01:59, Padraic Brown wrote:
            >> If it is derived from 'herr man", then I guess it got
            >> to the Romans through Celtic intermediaries. Any sound
            >> changes would have occurred, possibly in a Chinese
            >> whispers effect, along the route.
            >
            > Quite, though I'd suspect something a little older,
            > maybe something closer to harjamanniz.

            Well, yes - I didn't think the modern German words "Herr"
            and "Mann" were actual known to Caesar or his
            contemporaries. That's why "herr man" was between quotes; I
            was lazily quoting from Paul Schleitwiler's email of 4th
            August. Obviously the German of the 1st millennium BC was
            somewhat different ;)

            I know this thread began as a request for advice for Asirka.
            But presumably many other conlangs have had to confront the
            same issue. How have you gone about it?

            The various forms of 'briefscript' have never reached
            anything like a final form; but my intention was to use
            short forms based on the ISO country codes. So
            German/Germany would have been based on _de(u)-_ .

            TAKE of course simply takes ancient (or Byzantine) Greek
            forms without inflexions; thus we have:
            γερμανό (germanó) = German [person]
            γερμανικὀ (germanikó) = German [adj.]
            Γερμανία (Germanía) = Germany

            Outidic was inspired by Labbé's 17th century "Lingua
            Universalis." Of names of peoples & nations he wrote:
            "Nomina habitantium regiones provincias &c. prius quærenda
            sunt, ut ex iis loca ipsa formentur aliaque ex iis
            deriventur" (names of those inhabiting regions, provinces
            &c. are to be sought first so that from them may be formed
            the places themselves and other things may be derived." He
            give as an example:
            Franc = a French person
            Francè = France
            Francì = French [adj.] etc.

            he also gave: Angl, Scot, Europ, Span, followed by &c.,
            which does help us here. Especially as he had begun his
            section on proper nouns with: "Propria, cum hominum, tum
            locorum ex singulis linguis repeti possunt, ac modicè
            inflecti" (proper nouns both of people and of places can be
            found from individual languages with small modification).

            Outidic takes names from those of the people he nation among
            which they are used. They principles are given on:
            http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/Word_Forms.html#proper_names

            But, like Labbé, Dr Outis does not seem to have given a word
            for 'German'. As presumably he would have based it on
            German "Deutsch", modified to comply with Outidic
            phonotactics. It may have been *doiz (z = [dʒ])

            --
            Ray
            ==================================
            http://www.carolandray.plus.com
            ==================================
            "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
            for individual beings and events."
            [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
          • R A Brown
            ... Typical British understatement ;) [snip] ... Typical of Labbé s language. I find it quite attractive in an odd way. It is AFAIK the earliest
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 9, 2013
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              On 08/09/2013 18:20, Padraic Brown wrote:
              >>> Quite, though I'd suspect something a little older,
              >
              >>> maybe something closer to harjamanniz.
              >>
              >> Well, yes ... Obviously the German of the 1st
              >> millennium BC was somewhat different ;)
              >
              > Only somewhat!

              Typical British understatement ;)

              [snip]

              >> Outidic was inspired by Labbé's 17th century "Lingua
              >> Universalis." Of names of peoples & nations he wrote:
              >> "Nomina habitantium regiones provincias &c. prius
              >> quærenda sunt, ut ex iis loca ipsa formentur aliaque ex
              >> iis deriventur" (names of those inhabiting regions,
              >> provinces &c. are to be sought first so that from them
              >> may be formed the places themselves and other things
              >> may be derived." He give as an example:
              >> Franc = a French person
              >> Francè = France
              >> Francì = French [adj.] etc.
              >
              > There is something to be lauded in this: short, sweet and
              > to the point!

              Typical of Labbé's language. I find it quite attractive in
              an odd way. It is AFAIK the earliest attempt (1663) at an
              a_posteriori auxlang, eked out with a_priori elements - a
              tradition which, of course, we find continued much later in
              Volapük (1879/80) and not completely abandoned in Esperanto
              (1887). But I'm probably straying into Auxlandia territory
              here, so I'd better stop.

              --
              Ray
              ==================================
              http://www.carolandray.plus.com
              ==================================
              "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
              for individual beings and events."
              [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
            • yuri
              ... Well, since KlaXa is actually an auxlang designed to be spoken by a secret society, we deliberately can t use any recognisable roots that might allow spies
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 9, 2013
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                On 9 September 2013 03:03, R A Brown wrote:
                > I know this thread began as a request for advice for Asirka.
                > But presumably many other conlangs have had to confront the
                > same issue. How have you gone about it?

                Well, since KlaXa is actually an auxlang designed to be spoken by a
                secret society, we deliberately can't use any recognisable roots that
                might allow spies to decipher our language. Therefore we use a
                nickname based on "native" KlaXa roots based on some stereotype about
                each nationality.
                I haven't coined a word for German yet.
                A common derogatory name for Germans is "krauts" so perhaps I'd use a
                native KlaXa word for cabbage.
                Likewise for the French I'd use the KlaXa word for "frog" and for the
                Dutch I might choose something related to cheese.

                Yuri
              • Adam Walker
                ... I you re going there, you cloud just be perverse and call them Yankees! Adam
                Message 7 of 25 , Sep 9, 2013
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                  On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 4:31 AM, yuri <yuridg@...> wrote:

                  > and for the
                  > Dutch I might choose something related to cheese.
                  >
                  > Yuri
                  >

                  I you're going there, you cloud just be perverse and call them Yankees!

                  Adam
                • Padraic Brown
                  ... I had expected nothing less! ... I don t think so... there s really nothing wrong with mentioning or discussing how auxlangs work, as conlangs, and even
                  Message 8 of 25 , Sep 9, 2013
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                    >>> Well, yes ... Obviously the German of the 1st

                    >>> millennium BC was somewhat different  ;)
                    >>
                    >> Only somewhat!
                    >
                    > Typical British understatement      ;)

                    I had expected nothing less!

                    >> There is something to be lauded in this: short, sweet and
                    >> to the point!
                    >
                    > Typical of Labbé's language.  I find it quite attractive in
                    > an odd way.  It is AFAIK the earliest attempt (1663) at an
                    > a_posteriori auxlang, eked out with a_priori elements - a
                    > tradition which, of course, we find continued much later in
                    > Volapük (1879/80) and not completely abandoned in Esperanto
                    > (1887).  But I'm probably straying into Auxlandia territory
                    > here, so I'd better stop.

                    I don't think so... there's really nothing wrong with mentioning or
                    discussing how auxlangs work, as conlangs, and even the history of
                    their construction. You are not promoting an auxlang or even the
                    Movement as a whole, so absolutely no harm done. It does always
                    amaze me how many different ways we (conlangers as well as
                    auxlangers) can choose to get done the work of language. Whether
                    it's a short and to the point beeline from A to B, or taking long
                    rambles through the proverbial wild wood, passing just about every
                    other letter, rune, glyph or symbol along the way, smelling the
                    roses and half a dozen different kinds of daisies and maybe, at some
                    illdefined point in time, actually coming to the point! ;))

                    Padraic

                    > Ray
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