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Choosing a word for "German"

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  • Scott Villanueva-Hlad
    Hello everyone. For my conlang, Asirka, I was thinking about how to render the word for German. Asirka is language isolate which I envision to be
    Message 1 of 25 , Sep 3, 2013
      Hello everyone.

      For my conlang, Asirka, I was thinking about how to render the word for German. Asirka is language isolate which I envision to be central-eastern European. I have looked at most of the languages of Europe to see how each has rendered. I see 7 (maybe it’s 6) roots which I am categorizing by their first letter:



      D, T, G, A, N, S, V.



      D & T: I suspect are the same and that a related word in English is Teutonic.

      G: appears to come from Latin Germanus

      A: appears to be from Latin Alaman

      N: from a Slavic source (I have no Slavic etymological resources – but seems to be consistent and seems to have influenced Hungarian)

      S: I presume derives from Saxon

      V: I have no references for Baltic languages.



      It would seem interesting to derive from Saxon or as I’m thinking about it maybe from some other pre-unification state-name, (maybe Preußen – Prussian or Old Prussian: Prūsa)



      Perhaps there is someone that can shed more light on this study? What are the N and V roots? Am I correct about the S root? Are D & T really the same root?



      My study list of names follows my signature.



      Thanks everyone,

      Scott







      Afrikaans: Duitse

      Dutch: Duits

      German: Deutsch

      Yiddish: דייַטש



      Danish: tysk

      Icelandic: Þýska

      Norwegian: tysk

      Swedish: tyska



      Albanian: gjermanisht

      English: German

      Esperanto: germane

      Greek: Γερμανός

      Italian: germano

      Macedonian: германски





      Basque: Alemaniako

      Catalan: alemany

      French: allemand

      Galician : alemán

      Portuguese: alemão

      Spanish: alemán

      Welsh: Almaeneg





      Belasusian: нямецкі

      Bosnian: njemački

      Bulgarian: немски

      Croat: njemački

      Czech: Němec

      Hungarian: német

      Polish: niemiecki

      Russian: немецкий

      Serbian: немачки

      Slovak: Nemec

      Slovene: nemški

      Ukrainian: німецький



      Estonian: saksa

      Finnish: saksa



      Latvian: vācu

      Lithuanian: Vokietijos
    • C. Brickner
      I should think that the Italian tedesco would belong to the D group. Charlie ... Hello everyone. For my conlang, Asirka, I was thinking about how to render
      Message 2 of 25 , Sep 3, 2013
        I should think that the Italian "tedesco" would belong to the D group.
        Charlie

        ----- Original Message -----
        Hello everyone.

        For my conlang, Asirka, I was thinking about how to render the word for German. Asirka is language isolate which I envision to be central-eastern European. I have looked at most of the languages of Europe to see how each has rendered. I see 7 (maybe it’s 6) roots which I am categorizing by their first letter:



        D, T, G, A, N, S, V.



        D & T: I suspect are the same and that a related word in English is Teutonic.

        G: appears to come from Latin Germanus

        A: appears to be from Latin Alaman

        N: from a Slavic source (I have no Slavic etymological resources – but seems to be consistent and seems to have influenced Hungarian)

        S: I presume derives from Saxon

        V: I have no references for Baltic languages.



        It would seem interesting to derive from Saxon or as I’m thinking about it maybe from some other pre-unification state-name, (maybe Preußen – Prussian or Old Prussian: Prūsa)



        Perhaps there is someone that can shed more light on this study? What are the N and V roots? Am I correct about the S root? Are D & T really the same root?



        My study list of names follows my signature.



        Thanks everyone,

        Scott







        Afrikaans: Duitse

        Dutch: Duits

        German: Deutsch

        Yiddish: דייַטש



        Danish: tysk

        Icelandic: Þýska

        Norwegian: tysk

        Swedish: tyska



        Albanian: gjermanisht

        English: German

        Esperanto: germane

        Greek: Γερμανός

        Italian: germano

        Macedonian: германски





        Basque: Alemaniako

        Catalan: alemany

        French: allemand

        Galician : alemán

        Portuguese: alemão

        Spanish: alemán

        Welsh: Almaeneg





        Belasusian: нямецкі

        Bosnian: njemački

        Bulgarian: немски

        Croat: njemački

        Czech: Němec

        Hungarian: német

        Polish: niemiecki

        Russian: немецкий

        Serbian: немачки

        Slovak: Nemec

        Slovene: nemški

        Ukrainian: німецький



        Estonian: saksa

        Finnish: saksa



        Latvian: vācu

        Lithuanian: Vokietijos
      • Kelvin Jackson
        On Sep 3, 2013, at 19:57, Scott Villanueva-Hlad ... In Russian, the word for German (φσ∞σ÷) comes from the root for mute
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 3, 2013
          On Sep 3, 2013, at 19:57, Scott Villanueva-Hlad <scotthlad@...>
          >
          > N: from a Slavic source (I have no Slavic etymological resources – but seems to be consistent and seems to have influenced Hungarian)

          In Russian, the word for "German" (немец) comes from the root for "mute" (нем-), presumably because the Russians couldn't understand the way the Germans spoke. You could certainly borrow this word, but you might also want to consider using a native word for "mute" or some similar concept that your conculture associates with Germans.

          -Kelvin
        • Scott Villanueva-Hlad
          Thanks Charlie! ... From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU] On Behalf Of C. Brickner Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 6:28 PM To:
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 3, 2013
            Thanks Charlie!

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On Behalf Of C. Brickner
            Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 6:28 PM
            To: CONLANG@...
            Subject: Re: Choosing a word for "German"

            I should think that the Italian "tedesco" would belong to the D group.
            Charlie

            ----- Original Message -----
            Hello everyone.

            For my conlang, Asirka, I was thinking about how to render the word for German. Asirka is language isolate which I envision to be central-eastern European. I have looked at most of the languages of Europe to see how each has rendered. I see 7 (maybe it’s 6) roots which I am categorizing by their first letter:



            D, T, G, A, N, S, V.



            D & T: I suspect are the same and that a related word in English is Teutonic.

            G: appears to come from Latin Germanus

            A: appears to be from Latin Alaman

            N: from a Slavic source (I have no Slavic etymological resources – but seems to be consistent and seems to have influenced Hungarian)

            S: I presume derives from Saxon

            V: I have no references for Baltic languages.



            It would seem interesting to derive from Saxon or as I’m thinking about it maybe from some other pre-unification state-name, (maybe Preußen – Prussian or Old Prussian: Prūsa)



            Perhaps there is someone that can shed more light on this study? What are the N and V roots? Am I correct about the S root? Are D & T really the same root?



            My study list of names follows my signature.



            Thanks everyone,

            Scott







            Afrikaans: Duitse

            Dutch: Duits

            German: Deutsch

            Yiddish: דייַטש



            Danish: tysk

            Icelandic: Þýska

            Norwegian: tysk

            Swedish: tyska



            Albanian: gjermanisht

            English: German

            Esperanto: germane

            Greek: Γερμανός

            Italian: germano

            Macedonian: германски





            Basque: Alemaniako

            Catalan: alemany

            French: allemand

            Galician : alemán

            Portuguese: alemão

            Spanish: alemán

            Welsh: Almaeneg





            Belasusian: нямецкі

            Bosnian: njemački

            Bulgarian: немски

            Croat: njemački

            Czech: Němec

            Hungarian: német

            Polish: niemiecki

            Russian: немецкий

            Serbian: немачки

            Slovak: Nemec

            Slovene: nemški

            Ukrainian: німецький



            Estonian: saksa

            Finnish: saksa



            Latvian: vācu

            Lithuanian: Vokietijos
          • Scott Villanueva-Hlad
            Mute? Really? I ve always wondered. That is quite fascinating and a great idea! ... From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU] On
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 3, 2013
              Mute? Really? I've always wondered. That is quite fascinating and a great
              idea!

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
              Behalf Of Kelvin Jackson
              Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 6:35 PM
              To: CONLANG@...
              Subject: Re: Choosing a word for "German"

              On Sep 3, 2013, at 19:57, Scott Villanueva-Hlad <scotthlad@...>
              >
              > N: from a Slavic source (I have no Slavic etymological resources - but
              seems to be consistent and seems to have influenced Hungarian)

              In Russian, the word for "German" (немец) comes from the root for "mute"
              (нем-), presumably because the Russians couldn't understand the way the
              Germans spoke. You could certainly borrow this word, but you might also want
              to consider using a native word for "mute" or some similar concept that your
              conculture associates with Germans.

              -Kelvin
            • Padraic Brown
              A couple questions to consider: where exactly in central-eastern Europe? and when do the proto-Asirkans come in contact with Germanic speakers? If the timing
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 3, 2013
                A couple questions to consider: where exactly in central-eastern Europe? and when do the proto-Asirkans
                come in contact with Germanic speakers? If the timing is right, you might consider basing the name on the
                Goths, who were wandering towards the south and east in the 200s or thereabouts. The same folks
                Wulfilas will later translate the Bible for. I think Allemand etc come from Latin Alemanni, which was the
                name of a tribe that, if I recall properly, the Romans met early on. I guess the name stuck and got
                perpetrated long after other tribes rose to prominence in Western Europe (Franks, Visigoths, Lombards,
                etc). Since the Asirkans are on the òther side of Germany from where the Romans would have met the
                Alemanni, it wouldn't make much sense (to me) for them to use that name. If they met Germanics early
                enough, they might predate any Slavic or Baltic ethnonyms. On the other hand, the saks- name could
                come from the Germanic word for knife, *sahsam (this is, after all, what gives us Saxon). Perhaps you
                could use a Gothic word for knife or sword. I know of hairus (sword). I've also seen mêkeis. Perhaps
                one of those could serve, if your proto-Asirkans had been harried by Gothic warriors and their
                pointy weapons!

                Padraic





                >________________________________
                > From: C. Brickner <tepeyachill@...>
                >To: CONLANG@...
                >Sent: Tuesday, 3 September 2013, 20:27
                >Subject: Re: Choosing a word for "German"
                >
                >
                >I should think that the Italian "tedesco" would belong to the D group.
                >Charlie
                >
                >----- Original Message -----
                >Hello everyone.
                >
                >For my conlang, Asirka, I was thinking about how to render the word for German.  Asirka is language isolate which I envision to be central-eastern European. I have looked at most of the languages of Europe to see how each has rendered. I see 7 (maybe it’s 6) roots which I am categorizing by their first letter:
                >
                >
                >
                >D, T, G, A, N, S, V.
                >
                >
                >
                >D & T: I suspect are the same and that a related word in English is Teutonic.
                >
                >G:  appears to come from Latin Germanus
                >
                >A: appears to be from Latin Alaman
                >
                >N: from a Slavic source (I have no Slavic etymological resources – but seems to be consistent and seems to have influenced Hungarian)
                >
                >S: I presume derives from Saxon
                >
                >V: I have no references for Baltic languages.
                >
                >
                >
                >It would seem interesting to derive from Saxon or as I’m thinking about it maybe from some other pre-unification state-name, (maybe Preußen – Prussian or Old Prussian: Prūsa)
                >
                >
                >
                >Perhaps there is someone that can shed more light on this study? What are the N and V roots? Am I correct about the S root? Are D & T really the same root?
                >
                >
                >
                >My study list of names follows my signature.
                >
                >
                >
                >Thanks everyone,
                >
                >Scott
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Afrikaans: Duitse
                >
                >Dutch: Duits
                >
                >German: Deutsch
                >
                >Yiddish: דייַטש
                >
                >
                >
                >Danish: tysk
                >
                >Icelandic: Þýska
                >
                >Norwegian: tysk
                >
                >Swedish: tyska
                >
                >
                >
                >Albanian: gjermanisht
                >
                >English: German
                >
                >Esperanto: germane
                >
                >Greek: Γερμανός
                >
                >Italian: germano
                >
                >Macedonian: германски
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Basque: Alemaniako
                >
                >Catalan: alemany
                >
                >French: allemand
                >
                >Galician : alemán
                >
                >Portuguese: alemão
                >
                >Spanish: alemán
                >
                >Welsh: Almaeneg
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Belasusian: нямецкі
                >
                >Bosnian: njemački
                >
                >Bulgarian: немски
                >
                >Croat: njemački
                >
                >Czech: Němec
                >
                >Hungarian: német
                >
                >Polish: niemiecki
                >
                >Russian: немецкий
                >
                >Serbian: немачки
                >
                >Slovak: Nemec
                >
                >Slovene: nemški
                >
                >Ukrainian: німецький
                >
                >
                >
                >Estonian: saksa
                >
                >Finnish: saksa
                >
                >
                >
                >Latvian: vācu
                >
                >Lithuanian: Vokietijos
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • R A Brown
                ... Quite so! Both are important. The Slave -nem-_ names, e.g. came about because the contacts between Slav and Germans were not exactly friendly. Calling
                Message 7 of 25 , Sep 4, 2013
                  On 04/09/2013 03:51, Padraic Brown wrote:
                  > A couple questions to consider: where exactly in
                  > central-eastern Europe? and when do the proto-Asirkans
                  > come in contact with Germanic speakers?

                  Quite so! Both are important.

                  The Slave -nem-_ names, e.g. came about because the
                  contacts between Slav and Germans were not exactly friendly.
                  Calling them "mutes", i.e. people who don't speak properly,
                  is hostile or at best unfriendly. it's like the way the
                  ancient Greeks called non-Greeks _barbaroi_ - their speech
                  just sounded like "bar bar ..."

                  The Alaman- group are simply naming all the Germans from the
                  'tribe'/group they first encountered, i.e. Alemanni ("all
                  men") who broke through the Roman limes in 213 and expanded
                  during the 3rd century, raiding the Roman provinces and
                  settling on the left bank of the Rhine from the 4th century.

                  Similarly the Romans called all the Hellenes "Graeci",
                  because the Graeci were the first group they made serious
                  contact with; hence we now normally call them Greeks, not
                  Hellenes ;)

                  Presumably it is fir similar reasons that you have Estonian
                  & Finnish _saksa_, the Saxons being the main group these
                  people first encountered. I don't know the origin of the
                  Latvian and Lithuanian words, but I suspect it probably
                  derives from the name of another Germanic 'tribe'.

                  The _German-_ names derive not from any direct contact with
                  these peoples, but from the Latin _Germanus, Germania_ (the
                  origin of the Latin term is not certain).

                  The various T-/D- words - Duits(e), Deutsch, tysk(a), Þýska,
                  tedesco - all derive from Proto-Germanic *þiud- / *þeud-
                  "the people." This would be used if the Asirkans actually
                  encountered the Germans more or less peaceably through trade
                  and actually conversed with them and knew what they called
                  themselves. Interesting there is a medieval Latin adjective
                  _theodiscus_ which means more or less "vernacular German."

                  So it really all depends where, when and how the Asirkans
                  first encountered Germanic peoples.

                  > If the timing is right, you might consider basing the
                  > name on the Goths,

                  Possible - it would be a first, but why not?

                  [snip]

                  > Since the Asirkans are on the òther side of Germany from
                  > where the Romans would have met the Alemanni, it
                  > wouldn't make much sense (to me) for them to use that
                  > name.

                  Exactly - if you want Asirkans to sound plausible, they are
                  not going to be using the Alemanni name.

                  > If they met Germanics early enough, they might predate
                  > any Slavic or Baltic ethnonyms.

                  I think they would use _German-_ name only if (a) they did
                  not have direct contact with the Germanic peoples, and (b)
                  they had strong Latin influence. Probably both are
                  unlikely. To take up the Slav name would be likely only if
                  the Asirkans had strong connexions with Slaves and, probably,
                  somewhat hostile encounters with the Germanic peoples.

                  . On the other hand, the saks- name could come
                  > from the Germanic word for knife, *sahsam (this is,
                  > after all, what gives us Saxon).

                  maybe - but I'm sure the Fins and Estonians were as unaware
                  of that as were the Welsh who call us English 'Saeson", i.e.
                  Saxons. It's from the tribal name, whatever its Germanic
                  origin may have been.

                  --
                  Ray
                  ==================================
                  http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                  ==================================
                  "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
                  for individual beings and events."
                  [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
                • Padraic Brown
                  ... Right. This is another important aspect: did the Germanic people(s) the Asirkans first met come by for trade or conquest or plunder? This might also lead
                  Message 8 of 25 , Sep 4, 2013
                    >> A couple questions to consider: where exactly in

                    >> central-eastern Europe? and when do the proto-Asirkans
                    >> come in contact with Germanic speakers?
                    >
                    >Quite so!  Both are important.


                    >The various T-/D- words - Duits(e), Deutsch, tysk(a), Þýska,
                    >tedesco - all derive from Proto-Germanic *þiud- / *þeud-
                    >"the people."  This would be used if the Asirkans actually
                    >encountered the Germans more or less peaceably through trade
                    >and actually conversed with them and knew what they called
                    >themselves.  Interesting there is a medieval Latin adjective
                    >_theodiscus_ which means more or less "vernacular German."

                    >So it really all depends where, when and how the Asirkans
                    >first encountered Germanic peoples.

                    Right. This is another important aspect: did the Germanic people(s)
                    the Asirkans first met come by for trade or conquest or plunder?
                    This might also lead to the possibility of an entirely nátive name for
                    the Germans: an Asirkan word for reavers and plunderers.


                    >> If the timing is right, you might consider basing the
                    >> name on the Goths,
                    >
                    >Possible - it would be a first, but why not?


                    The Asirkans seem to be in roughly the right place. It largely
                    comes down to a matter of timing. If the Asirkans do not
                    arise as a people with a language until the 600s, well, I don't
                    think the Goths will have had any effect. If they arise by the
                    200s or 300s when the Goths are on the move, then they
                    might just be a justifiable source for a name.


                    >I think they would use _German-_ name only if (a) they did
                    >not have direct contact with the Germanic peoples, and (b)
                    >they had strong Latin influence.  Probably both are
                    >unlikely.  To take up the Slav name would be likely only if
                    >the Asirkans had strong connexions with Slaves and, probably,
                    >somewhat hostile encounters with the Germanic peoples.


                    Yes. Even the Romanians, who, I think it's safe to say, had sòme
                    kind of Latin influence, have Nemțias one name for Germans. I
                    should think that the Asirkans would likewise be more influenced by
                    Slavic than by Italic or Romance. Or maybe Hungarian, depending.


                    >>. On the other hand, the saks- name could come
                    >> from the Germanic word for knife, *sahsam (this is,
                    >> after all, what gives us Saxon).
                    >
                    >maybe - but I'm sure the Fins and Estonians were as unaware
                    >of that as were the Welsh who call us English 'Saeson", i.e.
                    >Saxons.  It's from the tribal name, whatever its Germanic
                    >origin may have been.
                    Possibly! I do think it might just be possible that if their contact
                    with Germanic peoples were violent enough, they might very
                    well learn words like hairus — after all, they'd be stuck with
                    enough of them! The word itself could have been borrowed
                    and later applied to the by then semi-legendary wandering
                    reavers, even if "Hery-folk" was not the original Asirkan
                    name. There could be a diachronic shift here: the ancient Asirkans,
                    in contact with Goths could have called them something like
                    "Guty"; later folks, long after the Goths had moved away,
                    could recall them by an epithet, "Hery-folk", sword people.


                    >Ray


                    Padraic
                  • Jörg Rhiemeier
                    Hallo conlangers! ... Yes. They are from Proto-Germanic *þeudiskaz of the people . _Teutonic_ is another matter, though. This is based on the tribal name
                    Message 9 of 25 , Sep 4, 2013
                      Hallo conlangers!

                      On Wednesday 04 September 2013 09:36:46 R A Brown wrote:

                      > [...]
                      > The various T-/D- words - Duits(e), Deutsch, tysk(a), Þýska,
                      > tedesco - all derive from Proto-Germanic *þiud- / *þeud-
                      > "the people." This would be used if the Asirkans actually
                      > encountered the Germans more or less peaceably through trade
                      > and actually conversed with them and knew what they called
                      > themselves. Interesting there is a medieval Latin adjective
                      > _theodiscus_ which means more or less "vernacular German."

                      Yes. They are from Proto-Germanic *þeudiskaz 'of the people'.
                      _Teutonic_ is another matter, though. This is based on the
                      tribal name _Teutones_ which, while clearly descending from
                      the same IE root (*teuto-) as *þeudiskaz, does not show any
                      traces of Grimm's and Verner's Law, leading to some scholars
                      doubting that the Teutones who caused so much trouble to the
                      Romans together with the Cimbri were a Germanic people at all.
                      At any rate, _Teutones_ is not a Germanic word! (There also
                      is no *other* IE root that would surface as **teut- in
                      Germanic, as this would require two voiced unaspirated stops
                      in PIE, which is forbidden.)

                      --
                      ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
                      http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
                      "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
                    • Paul Schleitwiler, FCM
                      The _German-_ names derive not from any direct contact with these peoples, but from the Latin _Germanus, Germania_ (the origin of the Latin term is not
                      Message 10 of 25 , Sep 4, 2013
                        "The _German-_ names derive not from any direct contact with
                        these peoples, but from the Latin _Germanus, Germania_ (the
                        origin of the Latin term is not certain)."

                        From "herman" (herr man), warrior.

                        God bless you always, all ways,
                        Paul


                        On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 2:36 AM, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:

                        > On 04/09/2013 03:51, Padraic Brown wrote:
                        >
                        >> A couple questions to consider: where exactly in
                        >> central-eastern Europe? and when do the proto-Asirkans
                        >> come in contact with Germanic speakers?
                        >>
                        >
                        > Quite so! Both are important.
                        >
                        > The Slave -nem-_ names, e.g. came about because the
                        > contacts between Slav and Germans were not exactly friendly.
                        > Calling them "mutes", i.e. people who don't speak properly,
                        > is hostile or at best unfriendly. it's like the way the
                        > ancient Greeks called non-Greeks _barbaroi_ - their speech
                        > just sounded like "bar bar ..."
                        >
                        > The Alaman- group are simply naming all the Germans from the
                        > 'tribe'/group they first encountered, i.e. Alemanni ("all
                        > men") who broke through the Roman limes in 213 and expanded
                        > during the 3rd century, raiding the Roman provinces and
                        > settling on the left bank of the Rhine from the 4th century.
                        >
                        > Similarly the Romans called all the Hellenes "Graeci",
                        > because the Graeci were the first group they made serious
                        > contact with; hence we now normally call them Greeks, not
                        > Hellenes ;)
                        >
                        > Presumably it is fir similar reasons that you have Estonian
                        > & Finnish _saksa_, the Saxons being the main group these
                        > people first encountered. I don't know the origin of the
                        > Latvian and Lithuanian words, but I suspect it probably
                        > derives from the name of another Germanic 'tribe'.
                        >
                        > The _German-_ names derive not from any direct contact with
                        > these peoples, but from the Latin _Germanus, Germania_ (the
                        > origin of the Latin term is not certain).
                        >
                        > The various T-/D- words - Duits(e), Deutsch, tysk(a), Þýska,
                        > tedesco - all derive from Proto-Germanic *þiud- / *þeud-
                        > "the people." This would be used if the Asirkans actually
                        > encountered the Germans more or less peaceably through trade
                        > and actually conversed with them and knew what they called
                        > themselves. Interesting there is a medieval Latin adjective
                        > _theodiscus_ which means more or less "vernacular German."
                        >
                        > So it really all depends where, when and how the Asirkans
                        > first encountered Germanic peoples.
                        >
                        >
                        > If the timing is right, you might consider basing the
                        >> name on the Goths,
                        >>
                        >
                        > Possible - it would be a first, but why not?
                        >
                        > [snip]
                        >
                        >
                        > Since the Asirkans are on the òther side of Germany from
                        >> where the Romans would have met the Alemanni, it
                        >> wouldn't make much sense (to me) for them to use that
                        >> name.
                        >>
                        >
                        > Exactly - if you want Asirkans to sound plausible, they are
                        > not going to be using the Alemanni name.
                        >
                        >
                        > If they met Germanics early enough, they might predate
                        >> any Slavic or Baltic ethnonyms.
                        >>
                        >
                        > I think they would use _German-_ name only if (a) they did
                        > not have direct contact with the Germanic peoples, and (b)
                        > they had strong Latin influence. Probably both are
                        > unlikely. To take up the Slav name would be likely only if
                        > the Asirkans had strong connexions with Slaves and, probably,
                        > somewhat hostile encounters with the Germanic peoples.
                        >
                        >
                        > . On the other hand, the saks- name could come
                        >
                        >> from the Germanic word for knife, *sahsam (this is,
                        >> after all, what gives us Saxon).
                        >>
                        >
                        > maybe - but I'm sure the Fins and Estonians were as unaware
                        > of that as were the Welsh who call us English 'Saeson", i.e.
                        > Saxons. It's from the tribal name, whatever its Germanic
                        > origin may have been.
                        >
                        > --
                        > Ray
                        > ==============================**====
                        > http://www.carolandray.plus.**com <http://www.carolandray.plus.com>
                        > ==============================**====
                        > "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
                        > for individual beings and events."
                        > [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
                        >
                      • Scott Villanueva-Hlad
                        So my instincts were right. The question is one of history. I need to determine that first before I go. All that I have read here has been so fascinating!
                        Message 11 of 25 , Sep 4, 2013
                          So my instincts were right. The question is one of history. I need to
                          determine that first before I go. All that I have read here has been so
                          fascinating! Thanks so much!
                          (My curiosity is still high about the V Root)
                          Scotto

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                          Behalf Of Paul Schleitwiler, FCM
                          Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2013 9:59 AM
                          To: CONLANG@...
                          Subject: Re: Choosing a word for "German"

                          "The _German-_ names derive not from any direct contact with these peoples,
                          but from the Latin _Germanus, Germania_ (the origin of the Latin term is not
                          certain)."

                          From "herman" (herr man), warrior.

                          God bless you always, all ways,
                          Paul


                          On Wed, Sep 4, 2013 at 2:36 AM, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:

                          > On 04/09/2013 03:51, Padraic Brown wrote:
                          >
                          >> A couple questions to consider: where exactly in central-eastern
                          >> Europe? and when do the proto-Asirkans come in contact with Germanic
                          >> speakers?
                          >>
                          >
                          > Quite so! Both are important.
                          >
                          > The Slave -nem-_ names, e.g. came about because the contacts between
                          > Slav and Germans were not exactly friendly.
                          > Calling them "mutes", i.e. people who don't speak properly, is hostile
                          > or at best unfriendly. it's like the way the ancient Greeks called
                          > non-Greeks _barbaroi_ - their speech just sounded like "bar bar ..."
                          >
                          > The Alaman- group are simply naming all the Germans from the
                          > 'tribe'/group they first encountered, i.e. Alemanni ("all
                          > men") who broke through the Roman limes in 213 and expanded during the
                          > 3rd century, raiding the Roman provinces and settling on the left bank
                          > of the Rhine from the 4th century.
                          >
                          > Similarly the Romans called all the Hellenes "Graeci", because the
                          > Graeci were the first group they made serious contact with; hence we
                          > now normally call them Greeks, not Hellenes ;)
                          >
                          > Presumably it is fir similar reasons that you have Estonian & Finnish
                          > _saksa_, the Saxons being the main group these people first
                          > encountered. I don't know the origin of the Latvian and Lithuanian
                          > words, but I suspect it probably derives from the name of another
                          > Germanic 'tribe'.
                          >
                          > The _German-_ names derive not from any direct contact with these
                          > peoples, but from the Latin _Germanus, Germania_ (the origin of the
                          > Latin term is not certain).
                          >
                          > The various T-/D- words - Duits(e), Deutsch, tysk(a), Þýska, tedesco -
                          > all derive from Proto-Germanic *þiud- / *þeud- "the people." This
                          > would be used if the Asirkans actually encountered the Germans more or
                          > less peaceably through trade and actually conversed with them and knew
                          > what they called themselves. Interesting there is a medieval Latin
                          > adjective _theodiscus_ which means more or less "vernacular German."
                          >
                          > So it really all depends where, when and how the Asirkans first
                          > encountered Germanic peoples.
                          >
                          >
                          > If the timing is right, you might consider basing the
                          >> name on the Goths,
                          >>
                          >
                          > Possible - it would be a first, but why not?
                          >
                          > [snip]
                          >
                          >
                          > Since the Asirkans are on the òther side of Germany from
                          >> where the Romans would have met the Alemanni, it wouldn't make much
                          >> sense (to me) for them to use that name.
                          >>
                          >
                          > Exactly - if you want Asirkans to sound plausible, they are
                          > not going to be using the Alemanni name.
                          >
                          >
                          > If they met Germanics early enough, they might predate
                          >> any Slavic or Baltic ethnonyms.
                          >>
                          >
                          > I think they would use _German-_ name only if (a) they did
                          > not have direct contact with the Germanic peoples, and (b)
                          > they had strong Latin influence. Probably both are
                          > unlikely. To take up the Slav name would be likely only if
                          > the Asirkans had strong connexions with Slaves and, probably,
                          > somewhat hostile encounters with the Germanic peoples.
                          >
                          >
                          > . On the other hand, the saks- name could come
                          >
                          >> from the Germanic word for knife, *sahsam (this is,
                          >> after all, what gives us Saxon).
                          >>
                          >
                          > maybe - but I'm sure the Fins and Estonians were as unaware
                          > of that as were the Welsh who call us English 'Saeson", i.e.
                          > Saxons. It's from the tribal name, whatever its Germanic
                          > origin may have been.
                          >
                          > --
                          > Ray
                          > ==============================**====
                          > http://www.carolandray.plus.**com <http://www.carolandray.plus.com>
                          > ==============================**====
                          > "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
                          > for individual beings and events."
                          > [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
                          >
                        • R A Brown
                          ... So why the change of /h/ -- /g/ and does that account for the long-a of the Latin _Germānus_ ? The word is first attested in the writings of Julius
                          Message 12 of 25 , Sep 5, 2013
                            On 04/09/2013 16:59, Paul Schleitwiler, FCM wrote:
                            > "The _German-_ names derive not from any direct contact
                            > with these peoples, but from the Latin _Germanus,
                            > Germania_ (the origin of the Latin term is not
                            > certain)."
                            >
                            > From "herman" (herr man), warrior.

                            So why the change of /h/ --> /g/ and does that account for
                            the long-a of the Latin _Germānus_ ?

                            The word is first attested in the writings of Julius Caesar
                            and is generally considered to be of Gaulish origin, which
                            would certainly make sense. It could be that "herr man" got
                            transmogrified on its way through Gaulish into Latin, and
                            that theory is certainly held by some. But other Celtic
                            derivations have also been suggested, connecting it
                            variously with words for: neighbor (gair), battle-cry
                            (gairm-), spear (ger), to shout (gar-). There possibly are
                            other theories as well.

                            Without time-travel or other more tangible evidence, we
                            cannot IMO be sure where JC got the word from.

                            The words _German_ and _Germany_ appear not to be attested
                            in English until the 16th century, replacing earlier terms
                            such as Almain/ Alman (of French origin) or Dutch (of German
                            origin, and now reserved reserved for the inhabitants of the
                            Netherlands).

                            ==========================================================
                            On 05/09/2013 01:16, Scott Villanueva-Hlad wrote:
                            > So my instincts were right. The question is one of
                            > history. I need to determine that first before I go.

                            Yep.

                            > All that I have read here has been so fascinating!
                            > Thanks so much! (My curiosity is still high about the V
                            > Root)

                            The Latvian & Lithuanian terms appear to be derived from a
                            root *vāca or *vākiā. But the origin of that is uncertain.
                            A connexion with the Swedish Vagoths has been suggested:
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagoth

                            But this is not certain.

                            --
                            Ray
                            ==================================
                            http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                            ==================================
                            "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
                            for individual beings and events."
                            [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
                          • Padraic Brown
                            ... Perhaps the Germans they first met had sore throats and the [x] sound of WGmc h- came out particularly rough and garbled? ;))) ... Could this not simply be
                            Message 13 of 25 , Sep 5, 2013
                              ----- Original Message -----

                              > From: R A Brown <ray@...>
                              > To: CONLANG@...
                              > Cc:
                              > Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013, 3:03
                              > Subject: Re: Choosing a word for "German"
                              >
                              > On 04/09/2013 16:59, Paul Schleitwiler, FCM wrote:
                              >> "The _German-_ names derive not from any direct contact
                              >> with these peoples, but from the Latin _Germanus,
                              >> Germania_ (the origin of the Latin term is not
                              >> certain)."
                              >>
                              >> From "herman" (herr man), warrior.
                              >
                              > So why the change of /h/ --> /g/

                              Perhaps the Germans they first met had sore throats and the [x] sound of
                              WGmc h- came out particularly rough and garbled? ;)))

                              > and does that account for the long-a of the Latin _Germānus_ ?

                              Could this not simply be Lat. germāni, in the "brothers and sisters" sense?
                              That is, a sort of "clan" or "confederation" of Germanic relations, rather
                              than some kind of borrowing? If it were a borrowing, what might you
                              have expected, something like *xermanus or *kermanus or something
                              like that?

                              > The word is first attested in the writings of Julius Caesar
                              > and is generally considered to be of Gaulish origin, which
                              > would certainly make sense.  It could be that "herr man" got
                              > transmogrified on its way through Gaulish into Latin, and
                              > that theory is certainly held by some. But other Celtic
                              > derivations have also been suggested, connecting it
                              > variously with words for: neighbor (gair), battle-cry
                              > (gairm-), spear (ger), to shout (gar-).  There possibly are
                              > other theories as well.

                              Indeed. And, from what I've read, there does seem to be some
                              confusion as to who, in that region, were actually Celtic and who
                              were actually Germanic. Would Caesar have known or cared?
                              Not being facetious, but did he (or the Romans in general) distinguish
                              broad cultural / linguistic groups the way we do? Did he understand
                              the difference between Germanic and Celtic (linguistically)?

                              > Without time-travel or other more tangible evidence, we
                              > cannot IMO be sure where JC got the word from.
                              >
                              > The words _German_ and _Germany_ appear not to be attested
                              > in English until the 16th century, replacing earlier terms
                              > such as Almain/ Alman (of French origin) or Dutch (of German
                              > origin, and now reserved reserved for the inhabitants of the
                              > Netherlands).

                              And Pennsylvania!

                              > Ray

                              Padraic
                            • R A Brown
                              ... [snip] ... If it is derived from herr man , then I guess it got to the Romans through Celtic intermediaries. Any sound changes would have occurred,
                              Message 14 of 25 , Sep 5, 2013
                                On 05/09/2013 13:36, Padraic Brown wrote:
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                >
                                >> From: R A Brown To: CONLANG@... Cc:
                                >> Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013, 3:03 Subject: Re:
                                >> Choosing a word for "German"
                                >>
                                >> On 04/09/2013 16:59, Paul Schleitwiler, FCM wrote:
                                [snip]
                                >>> From "herman" (herr man), warrior.
                                >>
                                >> So why the change of /h/ --> /g/
                                >
                                > Perhaps the Germans they first met had sore throats and
                                > the [x] sound of WGmc h- came out particularly rough and
                                > garbled? ;)))

                                :)

                                If it is derived from 'herr man", then I guess it got to the
                                Romans through Celtic intermediaries. Any sound changes
                                would have occurred, possibly in a Chinese whispers effect,
                                along the route.

                                >> and does that account for the long-a of the Latin
                                >> _Germānus_ ?
                                >
                                > Could this not simply be Lat. germāni, in the "brothers
                                > and sisters" sense? That is, a sort of "clan" or
                                > "confederation" of Germanic relations, rather than some
                                > kind of borrowing?

                                trThat would be fine with _frātrēs_, but _germānī_ was used
                                only of full brothers (or at least brothers sharing the same
                                father) and, of course, _germānae_ are full sisters (or a
                                sisters who share the same father)

                                If it were a borrowing, what might you
                                > have expected, something like *xermanus

                                Nope - _x_ always denoted [ks].

                                > or *kermanus

                                Nope - _k_ was rare and used only before _a_.

                                > or something like that?

                                I would expect *hermanus or, maybe, *chermanus.

                                [snip]
                                >
                                > Indeed. And, from what I've read, there does seem to be
                                > some confusion as to who, in that region, were actually
                                > Celtic and who were actually Germanic.

                                Yes, in the periphery areas. IIRC I've come across the
                                Belgae designated variously as Germanic, Celtic or mixed
                                (not sure what the very latest thinking is).

                                > Would Caesar have known or cared?

                                I don't imagine he would have cared overmuch.

                                > Not being facetious, but did he (or the Romans in
                                > general) distinguish broad cultural / linguistic groups
                                > the way we do?

                                Yes, in very broad terms.

                                > Did he understand the difference between Germanic and
                                > Celtic (linguistically)?

                                They knew they were different, because they used different
                                words and you needed different interpreters. But AFAIK no
                                one delved deeply into the difference as a modern linguist
                                would.

                                [snip]

                                >> The words _German_ and _Germany_ appear not to be
                                >> attested in English until the 16th century, replacing
                                >> earlier terms such as Almain/ Alman (of French origin)
                                >> or Dutch (of German origin, and now reserved reserved
                                >> for the inhabitants of the Netherlands).
                                >
                                > And Pennsylvania!

                                Darn it - yes, I forget the Pennsylvanian Dutch (from
                                Westphalia IIRC?).

                                --
                                Ray
                                ==================================
                                http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                                ==================================
                                "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
                                for individual beings and events."
                                [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
                              • Daniel Prohaska
                                ... The Pennsylvania Dutch were mainly from the Palatinate, and such is their dialectà with admixture from Hessian, Swabian and Swiss German. Westphalian is a
                                Message 15 of 25 , Sep 5, 2013
                                  On Sep 5, 2013, at 5:00 PM, R A Brown wrote:
                                  >
                                  >>> The words _German_ and _Germany_ appear not to be
                                  >>> attested in English until the 16th century, replacing
                                  >>> earlier terms such as Almain/ Alman (of French origin)
                                  >>> or Dutch (of German origin, and now reserved reserved
                                  >>> for the inhabitants of the Netherlands).
                                  >>
                                  >> And Pennsylvania!
                                  >
                                  > Darn it - yes, I forget the Pennsylvanian Dutch (from
                                  > Westphalia IIRC?).

                                  The Pennsylvania Dutch were mainly from the Palatinate, and such is their dialect… with admixture from Hessian, Swabian and Swiss German. Westphalian is a Low German variety.
                                  Dan
                                • R A Brown
                                  ... [snip] ... D oh! Of course it was! What s happening to me memory? ... Thanks for the correction. :) -- Ray ==================================
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Sep 5, 2013
                                    On 05/09/2013 16:03, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
                                    > On Sep 5, 2013, at 5:00 PM, R A Brown wrote:
                                    >>
                                    [snip]
                                    >>>
                                    >>> And Pennsylvania!
                                    >>
                                    >> Darn it - yes, I forget the Pennsylvanian Dutch (from
                                    >> Westphalia IIRC?).
                                    >
                                    > The Pennsylvania Dutch were mainly from the Palatinate,

                                    D'oh! Of course it was! What's happening to me memory?

                                    > and such is their dialect… with admixture from Hessian,
                                    > Swabian and Swiss German. Westphalian is a Low German
                                    > variety. Dan

                                    Thanks for the correction. :)

                                    --
                                    Ray
                                    ==================================
                                    http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                                    ==================================
                                    "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
                                    for individual beings and events."
                                    [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
                                  • Daniel Prohaska
                                    My pleasure. And t s a really fun dialect of German to listen to. Especially the moribund non-sectarian varieties are close to the Palatinate dialects. The
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Sep 5, 2013
                                      My pleasure. And t's a really fun dialect of German to listen to. Especially the moribund non-sectarian varieties are close to the Palatinate dialects. The Sectarian varieties have gone their own way… quite interesting…
                                      Dan


                                      On Sep 5, 2013, at 9:38 PM, R A Brown wrote:

                                      > On 05/09/2013 16:03, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
                                      >> On Sep 5, 2013, at 5:00 PM, R A Brown wrote:
                                      >>>
                                      > [snip]
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> And Pennsylvania!
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Darn it - yes, I forget the Pennsylvanian Dutch (from
                                      >>> Westphalia IIRC?).
                                      >>
                                      >> The Pennsylvania Dutch were mainly from the Palatinate,
                                      >
                                      > D'oh! Of course it was! What's happening to me memory?
                                      >
                                      >> and such is their dialect… with admixture from Hessian,
                                      >> Swabian and Swiss German. Westphalian is a Low German
                                      >> variety. Dan
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for the correction. :)
                                      >
                                      > --
                                      > Ray
                                      > ==================================
                                      > http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                                      > ==================================
                                      > "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
                                      > for individual beings and events."
                                      > [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
                                    • Padraic Brown
                                      ... Quite, though I d suspect something a little older, maybe something closer to harjamanniz. ... I think *ch- is what I was thinking of. Well, there do
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Sep 5, 2013
                                        > If it is derived from 'herr man", then I guess it got to the
                                        > Romans through Celtic intermediaries.  Any sound changes
                                        > would have occurred, possibly in a Chinese whispers effect,
                                        > along the route.

                                        Quite, though I'd suspect something a little older, maybe
                                        something closer to harjamanniz.

                                        >>   If it were a borrowing, what might you
                                        >> have expected, something like *xermanus
                                        >> or something like that?

                                        > I would expect *hermanus or, maybe, *chermanus.

                                        I think *ch- is what I was thinking of.

                                        Well, there do appear to be Celtic cognates of *harjaz, so perhaps
                                        Caesar got hold of a Celtic word of some sort.

                                        Naturally, misapplied to sore throated and by now pharyngitic
                                        Germans who could not enunciate a sensible rebuttal to
                                        Caesar's improper appelation!


                                        > IIRC I've come across the Belgae designated variously as
                                        > Germanic, Celtic or mixed (not sure what the very latest thinking is).

                                        Yes, I've come across that as well.

                                        > > And Pennsylvania!

                                        > Darn it - yes, I forget the Pennsylvanian Dutch (from Westphalia IIRC?).

                                        Lancaster, actually. ;)))

                                        Seriously, according to the Font of All Knowledge, Pennsylvania
                                        Germans came mostly from Alsace, Palatinate and Switzerland.

                                        Padraic

                                        > Ray
                                      • R A Brown
                                        ... Well, yes - I didn t think the modern German words Herr and Mann were actual known to Caesar or his contemporaries. That s why herr man was between
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Sep 8, 2013
                                          On 06/09/2013 01:59, Padraic Brown wrote:
                                          >> If it is derived from 'herr man", then I guess it got
                                          >> to the Romans through Celtic intermediaries. Any sound
                                          >> changes would have occurred, possibly in a Chinese
                                          >> whispers effect, along the route.
                                          >
                                          > Quite, though I'd suspect something a little older,
                                          > maybe something closer to harjamanniz.

                                          Well, yes - I didn't think the modern German words "Herr"
                                          and "Mann" were actual known to Caesar or his
                                          contemporaries. That's why "herr man" was between quotes; I
                                          was lazily quoting from Paul Schleitwiler's email of 4th
                                          August. Obviously the German of the 1st millennium BC was
                                          somewhat different ;)

                                          I know this thread began as a request for advice for Asirka.
                                          But presumably many other conlangs have had to confront the
                                          same issue. How have you gone about it?

                                          The various forms of 'briefscript' have never reached
                                          anything like a final form; but my intention was to use
                                          short forms based on the ISO country codes. So
                                          German/Germany would have been based on _de(u)-_ .

                                          TAKE of course simply takes ancient (or Byzantine) Greek
                                          forms without inflexions; thus we have:
                                          γερμανό (germanó) = German [person]
                                          γερμανικὀ (germanikó) = German [adj.]
                                          Γερμανία (Germanía) = Germany

                                          Outidic was inspired by Labbé's 17th century "Lingua
                                          Universalis." Of names of peoples & nations he wrote:
                                          "Nomina habitantium regiones provincias &c. prius quærenda
                                          sunt, ut ex iis loca ipsa formentur aliaque ex iis
                                          deriventur" (names of those inhabiting regions, provinces
                                          &c. are to be sought first so that from them may be formed
                                          the places themselves and other things may be derived." He
                                          give as an example:
                                          Franc = a French person
                                          Francè = France
                                          Francì = French [adj.] etc.

                                          he also gave: Angl, Scot, Europ, Span, followed by &c.,
                                          which does help us here. Especially as he had begun his
                                          section on proper nouns with: "Propria, cum hominum, tum
                                          locorum ex singulis linguis repeti possunt, ac modicè
                                          inflecti" (proper nouns both of people and of places can be
                                          found from individual languages with small modification).

                                          Outidic takes names from those of the people he nation among
                                          which they are used. They principles are given on:
                                          http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/Word_Forms.html#proper_names

                                          But, like Labbé, Dr Outis does not seem to have given a word
                                          for 'German'. As presumably he would have based it on
                                          German "Deutsch", modified to comply with Outidic
                                          phonotactics. It may have been *doiz (z = [dʒ])

                                          --
                                          Ray
                                          ==================================
                                          http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                                          ==================================
                                          "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
                                          for individual beings and events."
                                          [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
                                        • Padraic Brown
                                          ... Only somewhat! ... In the Eastlands, the usual hodgepodge of traditional names that come from time out of mind, appellations that may or may not have
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Sep 8, 2013
                                            >> Quite, though I'd suspect something a little older,

                                            >> maybe something closer to harjamanniz.
                                            >
                                            > Well, yes ... Obviously the German of the 1st millennium BC was
                                            > somewhat different  ;)

                                            Only somewhat!

                                            > I know this thread began as a request for advice for Asirka.
                                            > But presumably many other conlangs have had to confront the
                                            > same issue.  How have you gone about it?

                                            In the Eastlands, the usual hodgepodge of traditional names that come
                                            from time out of mind, appellations that may or may not have anything
                                            to do with what other people call themselves, some outright derogatory
                                            names, some broad geographical and ethnographical misapplications,
                                            some mythological names and a couple genuine ethnonyms thrown in
                                            for good measure.

                                            For example, the Rumen call their Germanic neighbors "Ontimonies",
                                            which itself is a rather old-fashioned way of saying "Avantimun-", there
                                            having been a couple broad areal sound shifts along the way. But the
                                            Avantimen call themselves, surprise, surprise, Thêdafulc, "People of
                                            this Country". Ônutumun was and ancient name for the region along
                                            the coasts of Ocean the people of which no longer live there, having
                                            sailed away many centuries ago. They left behind beautiful stonework
                                            and well laid out cities. Of their languages, few traces remain, mostly
                                            the names of places and rivers, most of which have now been quite
                                            mangled by the earlier newcomers and now applied to the Germanic
                                            people(s) living in those cities and lands. But that's okay, because the
                                            Avantimen themselves refer to their Italic neighbours as "Rumeliardo",
                                            after the name of a character in a play (Hulyús and Rumiyelle), the
                                            action of which takes place in Rumnias. They call themselves by
                                            various ancient regional names: Rumniai, Campagniai, Pountiai and
                                            Iconicai.

                                            Mentolatum, curiously enough, and quite apart for being named after
                                            a brand of ache-n-pain liniment, was one of the first places I knew much
                                            about in the World. Its original name was probably not Muntulatuz,
                                            but has become so after long association. It means "(Land that) Exports
                                            Mint": munt = mint, dlatun = send away, export. Their national motto
                                            is "Qua trevi, i-dnandu fi-londinno muntu og-ronu": Of herbs, for mankind’s
                                            wellbeing mint (is) the acme. Everyone else calls them some variant of
                                            this native name, e.g., Muntolazardo in Avantimannish, Menthomanni in
                                            Rumnian.

                                            The Talarians call themselves "Talaryâs", "Lords of the Earth". Everyone
                                            else calls them some variation. They, as well as the Husickites, Heclans
                                            and some others in the region are also called "Oritanians", or account of
                                            that being the name of the region their countries are in. Oriata was the
                                            name of an ancient country as well as language family.

                                            Daine have usually been called "Wildings" (nice) or "Bird People"
                                            (not so nice) depending and rarely are accorded different ethnic
                                            or national names.  They call themselves by a myriad of ethnic, regional,
                                            national, tribal and family names, which have traditionally only been much
                                            used by anthropologers. The name Daine itself comes from an ancient
                                            word, tana, meaning "person"(*).  The people of Westmarche, for example,
                                            are Sharrundaine, the people whose eyes "shine like Selanna", the bright
                                            blue and green little sister of Gea. Most of the Daine of the Eastlands are
                                            Troaghladaine, the "people who serve", from an old word meaning slave.
                                            None now recall why this should be so. In the marches to the east and
                                            southeast of Westmarche, there live some "dog-faced Daine", who have
                                            long faces and exaggerated canines. Dunno what they call themselves.
                                            In Avantimannish, they are properly called Dênez. The Daine of
                                            Auntimoany call themselves Hautherdaine which means "people of seas
                                            and ships", and the Men around them call them "searats and deep divers"
                                            with the utmost of respect. They are fine mariners and have a practical
                                            monopoly on the diving and recovery industries. The Men of Auntimoany
                                            also call the Westmarchers "skyboyos", and with largely the same sense
                                            of awe. They are top rate aviators and are the inventors of the great
                                            airships that wander into the skies of the Uttermost West, or else beyond
                                            the stretches of Ocean towards the sunrise.

                                            (*) The Daine, in the most ancient times, knew only of tana (speaking
                                            ones, and could be related to the root word tanal, tongue) and namay
                                            (non-speaking ones, either plant or animal). They didn't quite know
                                            what to make of the Teor when they first met them, nor Men when
                                            they burst on the scene. Even now, there is some continuing debate
                                            over whether the babble of so many Men ought to count as speaking
                                            proper, or just like the sounds animals make to communicate. Some
                                            have suggested that Men ought to be likened to the harcu, the animal
                                            that seems to talk, the Dog. (Harcain, to bark or yammer like a dog +
                                            -cu, an animal classifier)

                                            Just about anyplace farther west than Codeis, beyond which there is little
                                            more than Forest, is either unnamed or else has some dimly half-remembered
                                            legendary name. When you do come to (human) civilisation again, in the
                                            regions of Ehrran, and all those various Judeo / Buddho / Sindho / Parsawo-
                                            Helladic kingdoms that dot the region. The whole populace is known variously
                                            as "People of the Great Western Empire" or "Atelanteans" (both Hither and
                                            Yonder). There is, of course, no Great Western Empire (though pharaoh
                                            (Ankh-Alexandra IV (peace, long life and everlasting her reign!)) might wish it
                                            were otherwise); this is just a catch-all term for a group of places so far away
                                            that they become mingled in the common expression. Anyway, after the great
                                            natural disasters the region has suffered, the subsequent wars and the
                                            environmental destruction her empire has wrought of late, it's small wonder she
                                            has any empire to rule over at all.

                                            > Outidic was inspired by Labbé's 17th century "Lingua
                                            > Universalis."  Of names of peoples & nations he wrote:
                                            > "Nomina habitantium regiones provincias &c. prius quærenda
                                            > sunt, ut ex iis loca ipsa formentur aliaque ex iis
                                            > deriventur" (names of those inhabiting regions, provinces
                                            > &c. are to be sought first so that from them may be formed
                                            > the places themselves and other things may be derived."  He
                                            > give as an example:
                                            > Franc = a French person
                                            > Francè = France
                                            > Francì = French [adj.] etc.

                                            There is something to be lauded in this: short, sweet and to the point!

                                            > Ray

                                            Padraic
                                          • C. Brickner
                                            Senjecas is a language spoken long before humans had settled down and begun to name the places where they live. For these later proper names Senjecas uses the
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Sep 8, 2013
                                              Senjecas is a language spoken long before humans had settled down and begun to name the places where they live. For these later proper names Senjecas uses the earliest names that I can find in the resources available to me. These names are then adjusted to Senjecan phonology.
                                              One of the several ways for forming these proper names is to add –as to the final consonant of the stem. Thus, Germany is ‘germanas’; Iraq is ‘uruĸas’. The inhabitant is ‘germanus’; the adjective is ‘germanis’.
                                              Another way is to add ‘kyunas’, country, land, to the name of the people. Thus, Belgium is ‘belgëĸyunas’, the Czech Republic (Bohemia) is ‘boiĸyunas’. In these cases, the adjective would be ‘belgus’, the adjective ‘belgis’.
                                              Charlie

                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              On 06/09/2013 01:59, Padraic Brown wrote:
                                              >> If it is derived from 'herr man", then I guess it got
                                              >> to the Romans through Celtic intermediaries. Any sound
                                              >> changes would have occurred, possibly in a Chinese
                                              >> whispers effect, along the route.
                                              >
                                              > Quite, though I'd suspect something a little older,
                                              > maybe something closer to harjamanniz.

                                              Well, yes - I didn't think the modern German words "Herr"
                                              and "Mann" were actual known to Caesar or his
                                              contemporaries. That's why "herr man" was between quotes; I
                                              was lazily quoting from Paul Schleitwiler's email of 4th
                                              August. Obviously the German of the 1st millennium BC was
                                              somewhat different ;)

                                              I know this thread began as a request for advice for Asirka.
                                              But presumably many other conlangs have had to confront the
                                              same issue. How have you gone about it?

                                              The various forms of 'briefscript' have never reached
                                              anything like a final form; but my intention was to use
                                              short forms based on the ISO country codes. So
                                              German/Germany would have been based on _de(u)-_ .

                                              TAKE of course simply takes ancient (or Byzantine) Greek
                                              forms without inflexions; thus we have:
                                              γερμανό (germanó) = German [person]
                                              γερμανικὀ (germanikó) = German [adj.]
                                              Γερμανία (Germanía) = Germany

                                              Outidic was inspired by Labbé's 17th century "Lingua
                                              Universalis." Of names of peoples & nations he wrote:
                                              "Nomina habitantium regiones provincias &c. prius quærenda
                                              sunt, ut ex iis loca ipsa formentur aliaque ex iis
                                              deriventur" (names of those inhabiting regions, provinces
                                              &c. are to be sought first so that from them may be formed
                                              the places themselves and other things may be derived." He
                                              give as an example:
                                              Franc = a French person
                                              Francè = France
                                              Francì = French [adj.] etc.

                                              he also gave: Angl, Scot, Europ, Span, followed by &c.,
                                              which does help us here. Especially as he had begun his
                                              section on proper nouns with: "Propria, cum hominum, tum
                                              locorum ex singulis linguis repeti possunt, ac modicè
                                              inflecti" (proper nouns both of people and of places can be
                                              found from individual languages with small modification).

                                              Outidic takes names from those of the people he nation among
                                              which they are used. They principles are given on:
                                              http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/Word_Forms.html#proper_names

                                              But, like Labbé, Dr Outis does not seem to have given a word
                                              for 'German'. As presumably he would have based it on
                                              German "Deutsch", modified to comply with Outidic
                                              phonotactics. It may have been *doiz (z = [dʒ])

                                              --
                                              Ray
                                              ==================================
                                              http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                                              ==================================
                                              "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
                                              for individual beings and events."
                                              [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
                                            • R A Brown
                                              ... Typical British understatement ;) [snip] ... Typical of Labbé s language. I find it quite attractive in an odd way. It is AFAIK the earliest
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Sep 9, 2013
                                                On 08/09/2013 18:20, Padraic Brown wrote:
                                                >>> Quite, though I'd suspect something a little older,
                                                >
                                                >>> maybe something closer to harjamanniz.
                                                >>
                                                >> Well, yes ... Obviously the German of the 1st
                                                >> millennium BC was somewhat different ;)
                                                >
                                                > Only somewhat!

                                                Typical British understatement ;)

                                                [snip]

                                                >> Outidic was inspired by Labbé's 17th century "Lingua
                                                >> Universalis." Of names of peoples & nations he wrote:
                                                >> "Nomina habitantium regiones provincias &c. prius
                                                >> quærenda sunt, ut ex iis loca ipsa formentur aliaque ex
                                                >> iis deriventur" (names of those inhabiting regions,
                                                >> provinces &c. are to be sought first so that from them
                                                >> may be formed the places themselves and other things
                                                >> may be derived." He give as an example:
                                                >> Franc = a French person
                                                >> Francè = France
                                                >> Francì = French [adj.] etc.
                                                >
                                                > There is something to be lauded in this: short, sweet and
                                                > to the point!

                                                Typical of Labbé's language. I find it quite attractive in
                                                an odd way. It is AFAIK the earliest attempt (1663) at an
                                                a_posteriori auxlang, eked out with a_priori elements - a
                                                tradition which, of course, we find continued much later in
                                                Volapük (1879/80) and not completely abandoned in Esperanto
                                                (1887). But I'm probably straying into Auxlandia territory
                                                here, so I'd better stop.

                                                --
                                                Ray
                                                ==================================
                                                http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                                                ==================================
                                                "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
                                                for individual beings and events."
                                                [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
                                              • yuri
                                                ... Well, since KlaXa is actually an auxlang designed to be spoken by a secret society, we deliberately can t use any recognisable roots that might allow spies
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Sep 9, 2013
                                                  On 9 September 2013 03:03, R A Brown wrote:
                                                  > I know this thread began as a request for advice for Asirka.
                                                  > But presumably many other conlangs have had to confront the
                                                  > same issue. How have you gone about it?

                                                  Well, since KlaXa is actually an auxlang designed to be spoken by a
                                                  secret society, we deliberately can't use any recognisable roots that
                                                  might allow spies to decipher our language. Therefore we use a
                                                  nickname based on "native" KlaXa roots based on some stereotype about
                                                  each nationality.
                                                  I haven't coined a word for German yet.
                                                  A common derogatory name for Germans is "krauts" so perhaps I'd use a
                                                  native KlaXa word for cabbage.
                                                  Likewise for the French I'd use the KlaXa word for "frog" and for the
                                                  Dutch I might choose something related to cheese.

                                                  Yuri
                                                • Adam Walker
                                                  ... I you re going there, you cloud just be perverse and call them Yankees! Adam
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Sep 9, 2013
                                                    On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 4:31 AM, yuri <yuridg@...> wrote:

                                                    > and for the
                                                    > Dutch I might choose something related to cheese.
                                                    >
                                                    > Yuri
                                                    >

                                                    I you're going there, you cloud just be perverse and call them Yankees!

                                                    Adam
                                                  • Padraic Brown
                                                    ... I had expected nothing less! ... I don t think so... there s really nothing wrong with mentioning or discussing how auxlangs work, as conlangs, and even
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Sep 9, 2013
                                                      >>> Well, yes ... Obviously the German of the 1st

                                                      >>> millennium BC was somewhat different  ;)
                                                      >>
                                                      >> Only somewhat!
                                                      >
                                                      > Typical British understatement      ;)

                                                      I had expected nothing less!

                                                      >> There is something to be lauded in this: short, sweet and
                                                      >> to the point!
                                                      >
                                                      > Typical of Labbé's language.  I find it quite attractive in
                                                      > an odd way.  It is AFAIK the earliest attempt (1663) at an
                                                      > a_posteriori auxlang, eked out with a_priori elements - a
                                                      > tradition which, of course, we find continued much later in
                                                      > Volapük (1879/80) and not completely abandoned in Esperanto
                                                      > (1887).  But I'm probably straying into Auxlandia territory
                                                      > here, so I'd better stop.

                                                      I don't think so... there's really nothing wrong with mentioning or
                                                      discussing how auxlangs work, as conlangs, and even the history of
                                                      their construction. You are not promoting an auxlang or even the
                                                      Movement as a whole, so absolutely no harm done. It does always
                                                      amaze me how many different ways we (conlangers as well as
                                                      auxlangers) can choose to get done the work of language. Whether
                                                      it's a short and to the point beeline from A to B, or taking long
                                                      rambles through the proverbial wild wood, passing just about every
                                                      other letter, rune, glyph or symbol along the way, smelling the
                                                      roses and half a dozen different kinds of daisies and maybe, at some
                                                      illdefined point in time, actually coming to the point! ;))

                                                      Padraic

                                                      > Ray
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