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Re: Colloquial French resources

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  • Jonathan Beagley
    I ll third that. Also, I may not be a native speaker of French, but I ve lived in France for the past two years and have a fairly advanced knowledge of Spoken
    Message 1 of 50 , Aug 30, 2013
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      I'll third that.

      Also, I may not be a native speaker of French, but I've lived in France for
      the past two years and have a fairly advanced knowledge of Spoken French,
      having also studied it at university.

      There are some interesting academic articles about Spoken French (at least
      as far as dislocations and future tense variation go), but personally I've
      never heard of this "polypersonal" thing. Care to explain, Christophe?

      Jonathan


      2013/8/30 Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...>

      > 2013/8/30 Eugene Oh <un.doing@...>:
      > > Please ask on-list, Aiden, if you don't mind!
      >
      > I agree! I think that this subject is interesting for many people here.
      >
      > > I always like to read Christophe's views on Spoken French. Of course,
      > please don't feel obliged to just because I asked, it is just a selfish
      > request (:
      > >
      > > Eugene
      > >
      > > Sent from my iPhone
      > >
      > > On 30 Aug 2013, at 08:10, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <
      > tsela.cg@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >> On 30 August 2013 06:03, Aidan Grey <taalenmaple@...> wrote:
      > >>
      > >>> Rather than just another Future English, I'm working on a future
      > French.
      > >>> Wassa is a polysynthetic French that's lost its nasals and its
      > >>> uvular/guttural R, and I'm still playing with the idea of tones, but
      > not
      > >>> sure it's going to happen just yet.
      > >>>
      > >>> To that end - are there any good resources out there on colloquial /
      > slang
      > >>> French? The French I know / read is very academic and literary, and I
      > need
      > >>> to learn more about the ways that it's already changing.
      > >>>
      > >>> I've done some looking, but haven't had very good luck so far.
      > >>>
      > >>> Thanks,
      > >>> Aidan
      > >>
      > >> Well, one could call *me* a good resource on colloquial French (I
      > prefer to
      > >> call it "Spoken French", as there is nothing colloquial about it: even
      > the
      > >> formal registers of Spoken French are quite different from literary
      > >> French), but I guess you'd rather have something you can read at your
      > >> leisure, rather than someone who may not always be available to answer
      > your
      > >> questions :) .
      > >>
      > >> Unfortunately resources on Spoken French are indeed very scarce.
      > Resources
      > >> on vocabulary, and especially argot, are relatively easy to find, but
      > >> grammatical info is just missing.
      > >>
      > >> You can find bits and pieces here:
      > >> http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/negation_inf.htm (this page deals
      > with
      > >> negation, but also has links to other pages about Spoken French). In
      > terms
      > >> of books, _Colloquial French Grammar, a practical guide_ by Rodney Ball
      > is
      > >> not bad, but has a big hole in lacking a description of Spoken French's
      > >> polypersonal verbs. Could be because it's from 2000. The polypersonal
      > >> nature of Spoken French's verbs has been unrecognised for a long time,
      > >> maybe because there's still a strong impression among people that Spoken
      > >> French is a "debased" form of the language that is not worthy of study,
      > and
      > >> thus they will automatically code-switch to something somewhat closer to
      > >> Written French when asked questions about their own language.It's
      > difficult
      > >> to study a grammatical feature when the natives refuse to use it in
      > front
      > >> of the linguist :P.
      > >>
      > >> And of course you can always ask me questions, on- and off-list. I may
      > not
      > >> always reply immediately, but I *always* reply eventually :).
      > >> --
      > >> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
      > >>
      > >> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
      > >> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
      >
    • Aidan Grey
      Ha! I am killing number distinctions. After all - homme and hommes are homophones. In addition, it s common in many polysynthetic langs, where number is only
      Message 50 of 50 , Sep 9, 2013
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        Ha! I am killing number distinctions. After all - homme and hommes are
        homophones. In addition, it's common in many polysynthetic langs, where
        number is only visible on the verb.

        Killing gender in articles / determiners isn't difficult, since most of
        those vowels are unstressed.


        On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 8:12 AM, Basilius <vechernov@...> wrote:

        > On Wed, 4 Sep 2013 08:40:23 +0200, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
        >
        > >On 4 September 2013 04:47, Aidan Grey wrote:
        > >
        > >>
        > >> > I would agree with Christophe though that the most common solution is
        > to
        > >> > simply replace "le" or "la" with "ça".
        > >> >
        > >> >
        > >> I am thinking to have la and sa as 3rd sg., but different cases, one
        > nom,
        > >> one acc/dat., or some combination thereof.
        > >>
        > >
        > >Could happen. I'm not sure about the distribution of _ça_ with an
        > expressed
        > >noun phrase, i.e. whether it's more common in subject or object position.
        > >My gut instinct says object position, but I could be wrong. Also, I'm not
        > >aware of _ça_ used in object position to refer to persons (if it happens,
        > >it's probably very markedly pejorative, even more than _ça_ as subject
        > with
        > >a person as referent).
        > >
        > >If you lose the gender distinctions otherwise, you might keep them in
        > >verbal agreement markings only, and actually introduce a
        > >masculine/feminine/neuter distinction there à la English he/she/it. It
        > >would probably (for the subject agreement prefixes anyway) sound like
        > >i/e/sa.
        >
        > For agreement marking on verbs, this would seem the most natural option to
        > me, too.
        >
        > However, were I designing a genderless Future French myself, I'd be mostly
        > bothered by elimination of gender agreement within NP's; and especially by
        > getting rid of purely lexical gender, i. e. gender in inanimates; and in
        > doing so, I'd probably get stuck at killing the gender distinctions in
        > articles and other determiners (_le_ vs. _la_; _du_ vs. _de la_; _au_ vs.
        > _à la_; _mon_ vs. _ma_; _ce_ vs. _cette_, etc.).
        >
        > In fact, it seems to me that killing them without simultaneously killing
        > the *number* distinctions would look rather forced and artificial.
        >
        > It could be different if what one is designing is actually a creole.
        >
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