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Re: OT: Language in the 2009 Constitution of Bolivia.

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  • Padraic Brown
    ... Makes sense: if you re government is going to recognise a language as official, then government officers, particularly those in areas with a large
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 20, 2013
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      > If this is true, Evo Morales not only officialized many Indian
      > languages, but is also requiring officers to learn them:
      > http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=355071&CategoryId=14919

      Makes sense: if you're government is going to recognise a language as official, then
      government officers, particularly those in areas with a large population speaking
      that language, ought to be able to speak that language. Same as the situation in,
      for example, the UK. As far as I understand the situation, languages like Gaelic,
      Scots & Welsh are all official. I believe speakers of those languages have the right
      to use those languages freely when dealing with government.

      If this is a country where separate but equal is something of a norm, then I see
      the move as non-problematic and even commendable. Any further commentary
      along this line of reasoning will surely violate NCNC (even more so than other
      responses thus far), and so I'll leave it at that.

      > BTW, Bolivia has been requiring new access to the sea. As many point
      > out, the more natural way would be along the Peru-Chile border. So, I
      > wonder why similar solutions can't be used for all landlocked
      > countries. Has UN never considered considering some countries' borders
      > as international territory and building roads there to provide access
      > to the sea to landlocke countries?

      I think others have largely driven this nail into the discussion's coffin with the
      utmost vim. Bolivia might just consider starting up that xix century war again
      and try to retake the land they lost before... Just a thought! But seriously,
      I would note that there is already a precedent for just this kind of road linkage,
      and that would be between West Berlin and West Germany. As I understand it,
      the land linkages were an informal arrangement bewteen the Allied Powers,
      but there's no reason such an "informal arrangement" could not be worked out
      here, and even made a little more formal.

      A "virtual port" . . .

      I fully agree that a road running along the border is probably not a good idea —
      too many cans of worms there. A solution I would propose is to simply provide
      select Bolivian transport companies with some kind of pass that allows screened
      drivers & trucks to cross the border with minimal delay, allows these same truckers
      and their rigs to stop and rest at sanctioned truck stops along the assigned route and
      allows the goods to be brought into / out of the port with minimal headache. I'm not
      saying it needs to be free, and I'm not saying these drivers have free license to go
      anywhere in Peru they wish to go. A simple GPS monitor on the truck, the trailer
      and the driver ought to be sufficient to ensure that none of them gets too far away
      from where they're allowed to be. Obviously Peru ought to be justly
      compensated for the imposition, so some sort of equitable payment structure could
      be worked out.  A potential phase II could be some level of actual Bolivian port authority
      within selected Peruvian ports. Perhaps they could operate some kind of joint oversight,
      along with Peru, which would further facilitate Bolivia's needs and would link up with the
      road corridor already in place. Ultimately, the goal as I see it would be a system
      whereby Bolivia makes use of and pays for Peruvian infrastructure — a kind of
      minimal rental, if you will — but where Bolivia works with Peru in regards to ordinary
      operations and exercises its own oversight over its own trucking in the region. The solution
      would recognise Bolivia's needs and provide a means for them to quickly and inexpensively
      move goods to and fro; it would also respect Peru's sovereignty and right to determine who
      can cross the border. Violating transport companies would, naturally, lose their priviledge,
      and would also suffer consequences in both countries.

      So, not quite an entirely open border, and this would not allow just anyone to
      cross; neither a cession of national territory nor a complex project that would
      require lots of money to build (since the roads and port facilities already exist).
      No one loses face, everyone benefits and everyone looks good to boot: Bolivia
      gets a port and easy access; Peru gets some cash and looks good on the regional
      and world stage; I get a Nobel Prize for solving the problem! ;))))))))))

      Padraic

      > Até mais!
      >
      > Leonardo
      >
      >
      > 2013/7/18 Padraic Brown <elemtilas@...>:
      >>> From: Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...>
      >>
      >>
      >>>>>>   So rather than enact useless constitutional ammendments, I
      > think what is
      >>>>>>   needed is a "cultural ammendment" -- non Native
      > peoples (European /
      >>>
      >>>>> *You* (not it)  may have already noted that many Paraguayan
      > Guarani speakers don't
      >>>>> look like Native Americans at all, but even so they consider
      > this language as a symbol
      >>>>> of national identity.
      >>>
      >>>>   I'm not sure what you mean. What does what someone looks like
      > have to  do with it?
      >>>
      >>> I mean that many of them are probably "white" (Hispanic as in
      > Spain)
      >>> with little or no Guarani mixing.
      >>
      >> Okay. Either way, people, regardless of what they might look like, have to
      > ascribe value
      >> to a language for it to survive, or for it to be revived.
      >>
      >> European Paraguayans may or may not care one way or the other about the
      > language ---
      >> but if there is a strong desire to maintain or revitalise among the Natives
      > who speak it,
      >> there is always the possibility that social awareness may be raised and
      > that others who
      >> are nòt native speakers, may take an interest.
      >>
      >>>>> Does English play this role in India?
      >>>>
      >>>>   Yes. Especially among educated Indians (and Indians who currently
      > do or wish
      >>>>   to engage in global affairs, whether that's call center
      > staffing, international
      >>>>   business or etc). Internally, I think Hindi serves the purpose of
      > a national
      >>>>   language as much as English does if not more.
      >>>
      >>> I have heard that some speakers of Dravidian languages prefer English
      >>> to Hindi because of rivalry. Anti-Hindi and anti-Sanskrit sentiments
      >>> apparently are very important elements of Tamil nationalism and
      >>> separatism.
      >>
      >> Interesting. I am not at all surprised. I guess the English colonisers,
      > who've only
      >> been in India some 200 or so years are seen as less of a threat than the
      > Hindi
      >> colonisers who've been mucking about the place for several millenia!
      > ;))
      >>
      >> Padraic
      >
    • Leonardo Castro
      ... What is preventing you from winning a Nobel Prize might be the article 267 of the Bolivian Constitution that claims sovereignty over the territory that
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 23, 2013
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        2013/8/20 Padraic Brown <elemtilas@...>:
        > I fully agree that a road running along the border is probably not a good idea —
        > too many cans of worms there. A solution I would propose is to simply provide
        > select Bolivian transport companies with some kind of pass that allows screened
        > drivers & trucks to cross the border with minimal delay, allows these same truckers
        > and their rigs to stop and rest at sanctioned truck stops along the assigned route and
        > allows the goods to be brought into / out of the port with minimal headache. I'm not
        > saying it needs to be free, and I'm not saying these drivers have free license to go
        > anywhere in Peru they wish to go. A simple GPS monitor on the truck, the trailer
        > and the driver ought to be sufficient to ensure that none of them gets too far away
        > from where they're allowed to be. Obviously Peru ought to be justly
        > compensated for the imposition, so some sort of equitable payment structure could
        > be worked out. A potential phase II could be some level of actual Bolivian port authority
        > within selected Peruvian ports. Perhaps they could operate some kind of joint oversight,
        > along with Peru, which would further facilitate Bolivia's needs and would link up with the
        > road corridor already in place. Ultimately, the goal as I see it would be a system
        > whereby Bolivia makes use of and pays for Peruvian infrastructure — a kind of
        > minimal rental, if you will — but where Bolivia works with Peru in regards to ordinary
        > operations and exercises its own oversight over its own trucking in the region. The solution
        > would recognise Bolivia's needs and provide a means for them to quickly and inexpensively
        > move goods to and fro; it would also respect Peru's sovereignty and right to determine who
        > can cross the border. Violating transport companies would, naturally, lose their priviledge,
        > and would also suffer consequences in both countries.
        >
        > So, not quite an entirely open border, and this would not allow just anyone to
        > cross; neither a cession of national territory nor a complex project that would
        > require lots of money to build (since the roads and port facilities already exist).
        > No one loses face, everyone benefits and everyone looks good to boot: Bolivia
        > gets a port and easy access; Peru gets some cash and looks good on the regional
        > and world stage; I get a Nobel Prize for solving the problem! ;))))))))))
        >
        > Padraic

        What is preventing you from winning a Nobel Prize might be the article
        267 of the Bolivian Constitution that claims "sovereignty" over the
        territory that allows Bolivian access to the sea:


        "Artículo 267

        I. El Estado boliviano declara su derecho irrenunciable e
        imprescriptible sobre el territorio que le dé acceso al océano
        Pacífico y su espacio marítimo.

        II. La solución efectiva al diferendo marítimo a través de medios
        pacíficos y el ejercicio pleno de la soberanía sobre dicho territorio
        constituyen objetivos permanentes e irrenunciables del Estado
        boliviano."


        >
        >> Até mais!
        >>
        >> Leonardo
      • Adam Walker
        This is way, Way, WAY over the line into NCNC. The only reason this hasn t errupted into a flame war is the lack of Bolivian, Peruvian or Chilean list members
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 23, 2013
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          This is way, Way, WAY over the line into NCNC. The only reason this hasn't
          errupted into a flame war is the lack of Bolivian, Peruvian or Chilean list
          members to vent their spleen. Can we end this now?

          Adam


          On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...>wrote:

          > 2013/8/20 Padraic Brown <elemtilas@...>:
          > > I fully agree that a road running along the border is probably not a
          > good idea —
          > > too many cans of worms there. A solution I would propose is to simply
          > provide
          > > select Bolivian transport companies with some kind of pass that allows
          > screened
          > > drivers & trucks to cross the border with minimal delay, allows these
          > same truckers
          > > and their rigs to stop and rest at sanctioned truck stops along the
          > assigned route and
          > > allows the goods to be brought into / out of the port with minimal
          > headache. I'm not
          > > saying it needs to be free, and I'm not saying these drivers have free
          > license to go
          > > anywhere in Peru they wish to go. A simple GPS monitor on the truck, the
          > trailer
          > > and the driver ought to be sufficient to ensure that none of them gets
          > too far away
          > > from where they're allowed to be. Obviously Peru ought to be justly
          > > compensated for the imposition, so some sort of equitable payment
          > structure could
          > > be worked out. A potential phase II could be some level of actual
          > Bolivian port authority
          > > within selected Peruvian ports. Perhaps they could operate some kind of
          > joint oversight,
          > > along with Peru, which would further facilitate Bolivia's needs and
          > would link up with the
          > > road corridor already in place. Ultimately, the goal as I see it would
          > be a system
          > > whereby Bolivia makes use of and pays for Peruvian infrastructure — a
          > kind of
          > > minimal rental, if you will — but where Bolivia works with Peru in
          > regards to ordinary
          > > operations and exercises its own oversight over its own trucking in the
          > region. The solution
          > > would recognise Bolivia's needs and provide a means for them to quickly
          > and inexpensively
          > > move goods to and fro; it would also respect Peru's sovereignty and
          > right to determine who
          > > can cross the border. Violating transport companies would, naturally,
          > lose their priviledge,
          > > and would also suffer consequences in both countries.
          > >
          > > So, not quite an entirely open border, and this would not allow just
          > anyone to
          > > cross; neither a cession of national territory nor a complex project
          > that would
          > > require lots of money to build (since the roads and port facilities
          > already exist).
          > > No one loses face, everyone benefits and everyone looks good to boot:
          > Bolivia
          > > gets a port and easy access; Peru gets some cash and looks good on the
          > regional
          > > and world stage; I get a Nobel Prize for solving the problem! ;))))))))))
          > >
          > > Padraic
          >
          > What is preventing you from winning a Nobel Prize might be the article
          > 267 of the Bolivian Constitution that claims "sovereignty" over the
          > territory that allows Bolivian access to the sea:
          >
          >
          > "Artículo 267
          >
          > I. El Estado boliviano declara su derecho irrenunciable e
          > imprescriptible sobre el territorio que le dé acceso al océano
          > Pacífico y su espacio marítimo.
          >
          > II. La solución efectiva al diferendo marítimo a través de medios
          > pacíficos y el ejercicio pleno de la soberanía sobre dicho territorio
          > constituyen objetivos permanentes e irrenunciables del Estado
          > boliviano."
          >
          >
          > >
          > >> Até mais!
          > >>
          > >> Leonardo
          >
        • Leonardo Castro
          OK. I m sorry. AtΘ mais! Leonardo
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 23, 2013
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            OK. I'm sorry.

            Até mais!

            Leonardo


            2013/8/23 Adam Walker <carraxan@...>:
            > This is way, Way, WAY over the line into NCNC. The only reason this hasn't
            > errupted into a flame war is the lack of Bolivian, Peruvian or Chilean list
            > members to vent their spleen. Can we end this now?
            >
            > Adam
            >
            >
            > On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...>wrote:
            >
            >> 2013/8/20 Padraic Brown <elemtilas@...>:
            >> > I fully agree that a road running along the border is probably not a
            >> good idea —
            >> > too many cans of worms there. A solution I would propose is to simply
            >> provide
            >> > select Bolivian transport companies with some kind of pass that allows
            >> screened
            >> > drivers & trucks to cross the border with minimal delay, allows these
            >> same truckers
            >> > and their rigs to stop and rest at sanctioned truck stops along the
            >> assigned route and
            >> > allows the goods to be brought into / out of the port with minimal
            >> headache. I'm not
            >> > saying it needs to be free, and I'm not saying these drivers have free
            >> license to go
            >> > anywhere in Peru they wish to go. A simple GPS monitor on the truck, the
            >> trailer
            >> > and the driver ought to be sufficient to ensure that none of them gets
            >> too far away
            >> > from where they're allowed to be. Obviously Peru ought to be justly
            >> > compensated for the imposition, so some sort of equitable payment
            >> structure could
            >> > be worked out. A potential phase II could be some level of actual
            >> Bolivian port authority
            >> > within selected Peruvian ports. Perhaps they could operate some kind of
            >> joint oversight,
            >> > along with Peru, which would further facilitate Bolivia's needs and
            >> would link up with the
            >> > road corridor already in place. Ultimately, the goal as I see it would
            >> be a system
            >> > whereby Bolivia makes use of and pays for Peruvian infrastructure — a
            >> kind of
            >> > minimal rental, if you will — but where Bolivia works with Peru in
            >> regards to ordinary
            >> > operations and exercises its own oversight over its own trucking in the
            >> region. The solution
            >> > would recognise Bolivia's needs and provide a means for them to quickly
            >> and inexpensively
            >> > move goods to and fro; it would also respect Peru's sovereignty and
            >> right to determine who
            >> > can cross the border. Violating transport companies would, naturally,
            >> lose their priviledge,
            >> > and would also suffer consequences in both countries.
            >> >
            >> > So, not quite an entirely open border, and this would not allow just
            >> anyone to
            >> > cross; neither a cession of national territory nor a complex project
            >> that would
            >> > require lots of money to build (since the roads and port facilities
            >> already exist).
            >> > No one loses face, everyone benefits and everyone looks good to boot:
            >> Bolivia
            >> > gets a port and easy access; Peru gets some cash and looks good on the
            >> regional
            >> > and world stage; I get a Nobel Prize for solving the problem! ;))))))))))
            >> >
            >> > Padraic
            >>
            >> What is preventing you from winning a Nobel Prize might be the article
            >> 267 of the Bolivian Constitution that claims "sovereignty" over the
            >> territory that allows Bolivian access to the sea:
            >>
            >>
            >> "Artículo 267
            >>
            >> I. El Estado boliviano declara su derecho irrenunciable e
            >> imprescriptible sobre el territorio que le dé acceso al océano
            >> Pacífico y su espacio marítimo.
            >>
            >> II. La solución efectiva al diferendo marítimo a través de medios
            >> pacíficos y el ejercicio pleno de la soberanía sobre dicho territorio
            >> constituyen objetivos permanentes e irrenunciables del Estado
            >> boliviano."
            >>
            >>
            >> >
            >> >> Até mais!
            >> >>
            >> >> Leonardo
            >>
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