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Re: Creoles

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  • Garth Wallace
    It would have to be a creole between Yardish and something else. But you would have to pin down Yardish before you could address any descendant languages. On
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 17, 2013
      It would have to be a creole between Yardish and something else.

      But you would have to pin down Yardish before you could address any
      descendant languages.

      On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 7:00 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
      <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
      > I can't begin to have a Creole for Yardish.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Mellissa Green
      >
      >
      > @GreenNovelist
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On Behalf Of R A Brown
      > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 9:45 AM
      > To: CONLANG@...
      > Subject: Re: Creoles
      >
      > On 17/07/2013 05:33, MorphemeAddict wrote:
      >> My understanding is that it means taking the lexicon
      >> from one language (primarily) and the grammar from
      >> another (primarily).
      >
      > certainly if one of the languages is perceived as more
      > prestigious than the other, vocabulary will tend to come
      > from the prestigious language; but there will be odd bit
      > from the other language or, indeed, languages.
      >
      > Creoles often have grammatical features that are not common
      > to either parent language.
      > =======================================================
      >
      > On 17/07/2013 13:01, Roger Mills wrote:
      >> And I think it could involve phonological borrowing too.
      >
      > Most certainly.
      >
      > [interesting stuff snipped]
      >
      >> Question for Ray Brown-- is that how koine Greek arose,
      >> or is said to have arisen???
      >
      > Yes, same sort of way. It developed from the Greek taken by
      > Alexander's soldiers and reinforced by traders and settlers
      > in the conquered territories.
      >
      > It was based on the Greek of Athens, as this was seen as a
      > more prestigious dialect than others; but features which
      > were peculiarly Attic got ironed out with 'more acceptable'
      > pan-Hellenic features from the other Ionic dialects. For
      > example, the peculiarly Attic θάλασττα (thálatta) was
      > replaces by Ionic θάλασσα (thalassa).
      >
      > During the time of its use it was modified by the speech
      > habits of L2 speakers; this was probably why pitch accent
      > gave way during the roman period to stress accent.
      >
      > But it was a Koine, not a Creole. It is not improbable that
      > in seaports, for example, Greek-based pidgins become
      > creolized, but we have no record of any such creoles.
      >
      > --
      > Ray
      > ==================================
      > http://www.carolandray.plus.com
      > ==================================
      > "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
      > for individual beings and events."
      > [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
    • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
      Right. I figure, I don t really know how Creoles work. Mellissa Green @GreenNovelist ... From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU]
      Message 2 of 14 , Jul 17, 2013
        Right. I figure, I don't really know how Creoles work.

        Mellissa Green


        @GreenNovelist

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On Behalf Of Garth Wallace
        Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 1:02 PM
        To: CONLANG@...
        Subject: Re: Creoles

        It would have to be a creole between Yardish and something else.

        But you would have to pin down Yardish before you could address any
        descendant languages.

        On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 7:00 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
        <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
        > I can't begin to have a Creole for Yardish.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Mellissa Green
        >
        >
        > @GreenNovelist
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On Behalf Of R A Brown
        > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 9:45 AM
        > To: CONLANG@...
        > Subject: Re: Creoles
        >
        > On 17/07/2013 05:33, MorphemeAddict wrote:
        >> My understanding is that it means taking the lexicon
        >> from one language (primarily) and the grammar from
        >> another (primarily).
        >
        > certainly if one of the languages is perceived as more
        > prestigious than the other, vocabulary will tend to come
        > from the prestigious language; but there will be odd bit
        > from the other language or, indeed, languages.
        >
        > Creoles often have grammatical features that are not common
        > to either parent language.
        > =======================================================
        >
        > On 17/07/2013 13:01, Roger Mills wrote:
        >> And I think it could involve phonological borrowing too.
        >
        > Most certainly.
        >
        > [interesting stuff snipped]
        >
        >> Question for Ray Brown-- is that how koine Greek arose,
        >> or is said to have arisen???
        >
        > Yes, same sort of way. It developed from the Greek taken by
        > Alexander's soldiers and reinforced by traders and settlers
        > in the conquered territories.
        >
        > It was based on the Greek of Athens, as this was seen as a
        > more prestigious dialect than others; but features which
        > were peculiarly Attic got ironed out with 'more acceptable'
        > pan-Hellenic features from the other Ionic dialects. For
        > example, the peculiarly Attic θάλασττα (thálatta) was
        > replaces by Ionic θάλασσα (thalassa).
        >
        > During the time of its use it was modified by the speech
        > habits of L2 speakers; this was probably why pitch accent
        > gave way during the roman period to stress accent.
        >
        > But it was a Koine, not a Creole. It is not improbable that
        > in seaports, for example, Greek-based pidgins become
        > creolized, but we have no record of any such creoles.
        >
        > --
        > Ray
        > ==================================
        > http://www.carolandray.plus.com
        > ==================================
        > "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
        > for individual beings and events."
        > [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
      • Padraic Brown
        ... Possibly. (Please note that Creole , with a capital C, is actually the name of a particular creole language. It s also spelled Kriyol , which I think is
        Message 3 of 14 , Jul 17, 2013
          > From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <goldyemoran@...>

          >
          > I can't begin to have a Creole for Yardish.

          Possibly. (Please note that "Creole", with a capital C, is actually the name of a particular
          creole language. It's also spelled "Kriyol", which I think is a newer, fancier spelling.) In
          order to actually constrùct a creole, you really do need to have well developed languages
          to start with.

          But there is a way you can get around the whole issue. Since you are planning / working
          on writing a story, you can always just make a creole be part of the linguistic landscape
          without actually creating the language itself. Of course, as a writer, you can always do
          that with your main conlangs as well! Some writers just create sketchlangs that highlight
          a few of the language's high points and some lexicon. This is generally sufficient for
          someone who wants to concentrate on writing and story without being bogged down
          in grammatical minutiae.

          So, you could look into what makes a creole the way it is, then consider how Yardish
          (plus some other language) could end up producing such a descendant. Come up with
          a few creole words and Bob's thy nuncle.

          Padraic

          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Mellissa Green
          >
          >
          > @GreenNovelist
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On Behalf
          > Of R A Brown
          > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 9:45 AM
          > To: CONLANG@...
          > Subject: Re: Creoles
          >
          > On 17/07/2013 05:33, MorphemeAddict wrote:
          >> My understanding is that it means taking the lexicon
          >> from one language (primarily) and the grammar from
          >> another (primarily).
          >
          > certainly if one of the languages is perceived as more
          > prestigious than the other, vocabulary will tend to come
          > from the prestigious language; but there will be odd bit
          > from the other language or, indeed, languages.
          >
          > Creoles often have grammatical features that are not common
          > to either parent language.
          > =======================================================
          >
          > On 17/07/2013 13:01, Roger Mills wrote:
          >> And I think it could involve phonological borrowing too.
          >
          > Most certainly.
          >
          > [interesting stuff snipped]
          >
          >> Question for Ray Brown-- is that how koine Greek arose,
          >> or is said to have arisen???
          >
          > Yes, same sort of way.  It developed from the Greek taken by
          > Alexander's soldiers and reinforced by traders and settlers
          > in the conquered territories.
          >
          > It was based on the Greek of Athens, as this was seen as a
          > more prestigious dialect than others; but features which
          > were peculiarly Attic got ironed out with 'more acceptable'
          > pan-Hellenic features from the other Ionic dialects. For
          > example, the peculiarly Attic θάλασττα (thálatta) was
          > replaces by Ionic θάλασσα (thalassa).
          >
          > During the time of its use it was modified by the speech
          > habits of L2 speakers; this was probably why pitch accent
          > gave way during the roman period to stress accent.
          >
          > But it was a Koine, not a Creole.  It is not improbable that
          > in seaports, for example, Greek-based pidgins become
          > creolized, but we have no record of any such creoles.
          >
          > --
          > Ray
          > ==================================
          > http://www.carolandray.plus.com
          > ==================================
          > "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
          > for individual beings and events."
          > [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
          >
        • David McCann
          On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 13:27:45 -0400 ... A group of foreigners arrive and need to talk to the locals. Either they cannot be bothered to learn the local language,
          Message 4 of 14 , Jul 18, 2013
            On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 13:27:45 -0400
            Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <goldyemoran@...> wrote:

            > Right. I figure, I don't really know how Creoles work.

            A group of foreigners arrive and need to talk to the locals. Either
            they cannot be bothered to learn the local language, or the locals are
            not interested in teaching them. You end up with a few foreign words
            being used with a bit of local grammar: a pidgin. Sometimes it gets
            native speakers, more vocabulary and a more regular grammar, and then
            it's a creole.

            In Tok Pisin (New Guinea) you can say
            Mi kaikai planti kaukau pinis, mi no hangre.
            meaning
            I've eaten so much sweet potato that I'm not hungry.

            Some words are English and some (kaikai, kaukau) are local. The grammar
            is not English: "kaikai ... pinis" replaces "have eaten", although
            "pinis" is actually from "finish". Sometimes they add grammar that
            seems necessary to the locals, although not to English-speakers.
            Intransitive and transitive verbs are distinguished: op "be open" but
            op-im "open something". Pronouns have a dual: mi "I", mipela
            "we" (plural), mitupela "we" (dual).
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