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Oblique Passives

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  • neo gu
    The latest version (Jul05) can make passive subjects from oblique objects. First, a sample active sentence with an oblique phrase: (1) kes^ z^ini tasumego roda
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 7, 2013
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      The latest version (Jul05) can make passive subjects from oblique objects.

      First, a sample active sentence with an oblique phrase:

      (1) kes^ z^ini tasumego roda gurakukc^i.
      kes^ z^in-i tasume-0-go roda-0 gurak-uk-0-c^i
      3ASNom this-Att cup-S-Abl beer-Abs drink-Prf-Fin-AT
      "He has drunk beer from this cup."

      This can be made passive:

      (2) roda z^ini tasumego guraxrokc^i.
      roda-0 z^in-i tasume-0-go gurax-r-ok-0-c^i
      beer-Abs this-Att cup-S-Abl drink-Pas-Prf-Fin-AT
      "Beer has been drunk from this cup."

      Now, a sample intransitive sentence, also with an oblique phrase:

      (3) kes^ ku 'erefantego dakto.
      kes^ ku 'erefante-0-go dak-0-0-to
      3ASNom Def elephant-S-Abl run-Aor-Fin-DT
      "She ran from the elephant."

      The ablative case-marker can be moved from the noun to become a verb prefix. The verb is now transitive and the original oblique object is the direct object:

      (4) kes^ ku 'erefante godakto.
      kes^ ku 'erefante-0-0 go-dak-0-0-to
      3ASNom Def elephant-S-Acc ???-run-Aor-Fin-DT
      "She ran from the elephant."

      Note: I don't know what interlinear tag to use for the prefix!

      This can now be made passive:

      (5) ku 'erefantes^ godaxroto.
      ku 'erefante-0-s^ go-dax-r-0-o-to
      Def elephant-S-Nom ???-run-Pas-Aor-Fin-DT
      "The elephant was run from."

      The case-marker can be made a prefix on transitive verbs as well, making the oblique object a direct object. The original direct object must be omitted (there doesn't seem to be a way to get it back, unlike the subject):

      (6) kes^ z^ini tasume gogurakukc^i.
      kes^ z^in-i tasume-0-0 go-gurak-uk-0-c^i
      3ASNom this-Att cup-S-Abs ???-drink-Prf-Fin-AT
      "He has drunk from this cup."

      This can be made passive:

      (7) z^ini tasume goguraxrokc^i.
      z^in-i tasume-0-0 go-gurax-r-ok-0-c^i
      this-Att cup-S-Abs ???-drink-Pas-Prf-Fin-AT
      "This cup has been drunk from."

      Oblique passives are most useful as participles modifying nouns:

      (8) 'u godaxre 'erefantes^
      'u go-dax-r-0-e 'erefante-0-s^
      Def ???-run-Pas-Aor-Att elephant-S-Nom
      "the run-from elephant"

      (9) 'u goguraxroki tasume
      'u go-gurax-r-ok-i tasume-0-0
      Def ???-drink-Pas-Prf-Att cup-S-Abs
      "the drunk-from cup"

      Comments?
    • Alex Fink
      ... Sounds to me that this is an ordinary _applicative_, an ablative applicative to be precise. ... I think I ve seen a very similar suite of examples to this
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 7, 2013
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        On Sun, 7 Jul 2013 23:27:36 -0400, neo gu <qiihoskeh@...> wrote:

        >The ablative case-marker can be moved from the noun to become a verb prefix. The verb is now transitive and the original oblique object is the direct object:
        >
        >(4) kes^ ku 'erefante godakto.
        > kes^ ku 'erefante-0-0 go-dak-0-0-to
        > 3ASNom Def elephant-S-Acc ???-run-Aor-Fin-DT
        > "She ran from the elephant."
        >
        >Note: I don't know what interlinear tag to use for the prefix!

        Sounds to me that this is an ordinary _applicative_, an ablative applicative to be precise.

        >Oblique passives are most useful as participles modifying nouns:
        >
        >(8) 'u godaxre 'erefantes^
        > 'u go-dax-r-0-e 'erefante-0-s^
        > Def ???-run-Pas-Aor-Att elephant-S-Nom
        > "the run-from elephant"

        I think I've seen a very similar suite of examples to this before in discussion of some natlang which had applicatives and passives but syntactically could only relativise on the subject. (Sorry I can't remember more details.)

        Alex
      • Roger Mills
        From: Alex Fink ... Sounds to me that this is an ordinary _applicative_, an ablative applicative to be precise.  ... I think I ve seen a
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 7, 2013
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          From: Alex Fink <000024@...>



          On Sun, 7 Jul 2013 23:27:36 -0400, neo gu <qiihoskeh@...> wrote:

          >The ablative case-marker can be moved from the noun to become a verb prefix. The verb is now transitive and the original oblique object is the direct object:
          >
          >(4) kes^ ku 'erefante godakto.
          >    kes^  ku  'erefante-0-0  go-dak-0-0-to
          >    3ASNom Def elephant-S-Acc ???-run-Aor-Fin-DT
          >    "She ran from the elephant."
          >
          >Note:    I don't know what interlinear tag to use for the prefix!

          Sounds to me that this is an ordinary _applicative_, an ablative applicative to be precise. 

          >Oblique passives are most useful as participles modifying nouns:
          >
          >(8) 'u godaxre 'erefantes^
          >    'u  go-dax-r-0-e      'erefante-0-s^
          >    Def ???-run-Pas-Aor-Att elephant-S-Nom
          >    "the run-from elephant"

          I think I've seen a very similar suite of examples to this before in discussion of some natlang which had applicatives and passives but syntactically could only relativise on the subject.  (Sorry I can't remember more details.)
          ===============================================

          Possibly Indonesian/Malay?? you can have things like
          Ali duduk di kursi
          Ali sit    loc chair
          Ali sat in the chair

          Ali (men)/duduk/i kursi
          Ali (ACT)/sit/APP:Loc  chair  the active pfx is optional, colloquial, very common.
          Ali sat.in the chair, Ali occupied the chair

          ...kursi yang di/duduk/i (oleh Ali)
          chair REL  pass/sit/APP:Loc (by Ali),
          the chair that was.sat.in (~occupied) (by Ali)

          The suffix -i turns many an intrans. verb into a transitive with locative mng. (among other things, like simple object focus :-)))))

          I can't come up with the equivalent of "the run-from elephant" because 'run' is _lari_ and verbs with final -i cant take the -i suffix for some reason. Plus there's no App. for 'from'.  But this is close:

          Ia takut pada (elephant) She's aftaid of the elephant
          Ia takuti (~menakuti) (elephant)  'she fears the elephant' even she's afraid of the elephant
          e. yang di/takuti/nya E. that is.feared./by her  or the eleph. that she fears/ she's afraid of
        • neo gu
          ... I was thinking applicatives were just instrumentals and benefactives and was originally trying to come up with the term for promotion of oblique directly
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 8, 2013
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            On Sun, 7 Jul 2013 21:20:47 -0700, Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:

            >From: Alex Fink <000024@...>

            >On Sun, 7 Jul 2013 23:27:36 -0400, neo gu <qiihoskeh@...> wrote:
            >
            >>The ablative case-marker can be moved from the noun to become a verb prefix. The verb is now transitive and the original oblique object is the direct object:
            >>
            >>(4) kes^ ku 'erefante godakto.
            >> kes^ ku 'erefante-0-0 go-dak-0-0-to
            >> 3ASNom Def elephant-S-Acc ???-run-Aor-Fin-DT
            >> "She ran from the elephant."
            >>
            >>Note: I don't know what interlinear tag to use for the prefix!

            >Sounds to me that this is an ordinary _applicative_, an ablative applicative to be precise.

            I was thinking applicatives were just instrumentals and benefactives and was originally trying to come up with the term for promotion of oblique directly to subject (to preserve the direct object), so I didn't consider it.

            >>Oblique passives are most useful as participles modifying nouns:
            >>
            >>(8) 'u godaxre 'erefantes^
            >> 'u go-dax-r-0-e 'erefante-0-s^
            >> Def ???-run-Pas-Aor-Att elephant-S-Nom
            >> "the run-from elephant"

            >I think I've seen a very similar suite of examples to this before in discussion of some natlang which had applicatives and passives but syntactically could only relativise on the subject.? (Sorry I can't remember more details.)
            >
            ===============================================

            >Possibly Indonesian/Malay?? you can have things like
            >Ali duduk di kursi
            >Ali sit??? loc chair
            >Ali sat in the chair
            >
            >Ali (men)/duduk/i kursi
            >Ali (ACT)/sit/APP:Loc? chair? the active pfx is optional, colloquial, very common.
            >Ali sat.in the chair, Ali occupied the chair
            >
            >...kursi yang di/duduk/i (oleh Ali)
            >chair REL? pass/sit/APP:Loc (by Ali),
            >the chair that was.sat.in (~occupied) (by Ali)

            So the abbreviation is APP:Case? That seems a little unwieldy compared to my usual 3-letter tags.

            >The suffix -i turns many an intrans. verb into a transitive with locative mng. (among other things, like simple object >focus :-)))))
            >
            >I can't come up with the equivalent of "the run-from elephant" because 'run' is _lari_ and verbs with final -i cant take >the -i suffix for some reason. Plus there's no App. for 'from'.? But this is close:
            >
            >Ia takut pada (elephant) She's aftaid of the elephant
            >Ia takuti (~menakuti) (elephant)? 'she fears the elephant' even she's afraid of the elephant
            >e. yang di/takuti/nya E. that is.feared./by her? or the eleph. that she fears/ she's afraid of
          • Roger Mills
            From: neo gu (Roger Mills wrote--) ... So the abbreviation is APP:Case? That seems a little unwieldy compared to my usual 3-letter tags.
            Message 5 of 5 , Jul 8, 2013
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              From: neo gu <qiihoskeh@...>



              (Roger Mills wrote--)
              >Possibly Indonesian/Malay?? you can have things like
              >Ali duduk di kursi
              >Ali sit??? loc chair
              >Ali sat in the chair
              >
              >Ali (men)/duduk/i kursi
              >Ali (ACT)/sit/APP:Loc? chair? the active pfx is optional, colloquial, very common.
              >Ali sat.in the chair, Ali  occupied the chair
              >
              >...kursi yang di/duduk/i (oleh Ali)
              >chair REL? pass/sit/APP:Loc (by Ali),
              >the chair that was.sat.in (~occupied) (by Ali)

              So the abbreviation is APP:Case? That seems a little unwieldy compared to my usual 3-letter tags.
              ============================================

              That was just my ad-hoc invention. I really don't understand applicatives, but apparently Indo. -i is one...I guess Indo. -kan, which can form causatives but also object and/or IO focus, is one too. They're not called applicatives in the grammar books, just "locative/causative suffixes". It would be neat to have a full set, including your "ablative applic."

              Of course, Philippine languages can do all sorts of things,with verbal prefixes/infixes/suffixes....much more than Indo.

              And where did all those question marks in my re-transmitted post come from? They weren't in the original I'm sure :-)))))
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