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Forums for prehistoric linguistics of Europe?

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  • Jörg Rhiemeier
    Hallo conlangers! Can anybody of you recommend to me a forum for the discussion of European linguistic prehistory? I mean such matters as substratum loanwords
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 4, 2013
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      Hallo conlangers!

      Can anybody of you recommend to me a forum for the discussion
      of European linguistic prehistory? I mean such matters as
      substratum loanwords in European languages, "Old European"
      geographical names, inscriptional fragments of ancient non-IE
      languages of the Mediterranean and the like.

      Thank you in advance.

      --
      ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
      http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
      "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
    • Padraic Brown
      ... Greetings! If you haven t already, you might look into the Yahoo group Cybalist . Their group selfadvertises as a forum devoted to discussing
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 4, 2013
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        > From: Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...>

        >
        > Can anybody of you recommend to me a forum for the discussion
        > of European linguistic prehistory?  I mean such matters as
        > substratum loanwords in European languages, "Old European"
        > geographical names, inscriptional fragments of ancient non-IE
        > languages of the Mediterranean and the like.

        Greetings!

        If you haven't already, you might look into the Yahoo group "Cybalist". Their group
        selfadvertises as "a forum devoted to discussing Indo-European linguistics
        and related topics concerning the history and culture of
        IE-speaking
        peoples. It is the ambition of the owners and moderators of
        this list to
        promote and popularise sound linguistic and historical
        knowledge, and
        to make our group a hospitable club where professional
        researchers in
        IE studies and amateurs with a serious interest in the
        field can meet
        and exchange ideas." Cyril Babaev founded the list almost 15 years ago,
        and I know he has posted here in the past.

        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/

        A far less busy group is "PIEreligion". They advertise themselves thus:
        "This list if for the discussion of Proto-Indo-European religion. It is
        not a
        discussion list for linguistics. That topic is more than well
        covered on the
        Cybalist. Linguistics will surely be brought up here as
        part of the study
        but our focus is on the religion of the
        Proto-Indo-Europeans."

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PIEreligion/

        Then try the group "Substratus Languages": "This group is about evidence of substratum
        in Indo-European languages
        and discussion of pre-IE items, with particular attention for
        the
        languages of ancient Europe."

        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/substratumlanguages/

        Some other possibles:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dumezil/
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ViktorRydberg/
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/pieconlang/
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/balkanika/
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ie_polytheism/ (only about 50 messages in their archive)
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Dene_Caucasian/ (few messages)
        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/tocharian/ (few messages)

        Interesting, but quite possibly crackpotty:

        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Polat_Kaya/

        Bet you didn't know that the ancient city of Troy is actually the "Home of the Turks"! ;)))

        Padraic

        >
        > Thank you in advance.
        >
        > --
        > ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
        > http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
        > "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
        >
      • Padraic Brown
        ... Cyril himself is also into Nostratic. He is involved with www.nostratic.net Speaking of, there is also http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Nostratic-L/
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 4, 2013
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          > From: Roger Mills <romiltz@...>

          > I should have added:  Cybalist lately isn't quite so speculative, though it can be at times. But look in their vast archive.

          > There used to be a rather controversial guy posting there named Glen Gordon; he was into Nostratic (which is another
          > avenue to explore), and now inhabits IIRC a Nostratic website.

          Cyril himself is also into Nostratic. He is involved with www.nostratic.net


          Speaking of, there is also http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Nostratic-L/

          Padraic
        • R A Brown
          On 05/07/2013 00:49, Padraic Brown wrote: [snip] ... Polat Kaya, eh? Definitely crackpotty then. He s the guy who claims the script on the Lemnos stele is a
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 4, 2013
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            On 05/07/2013 00:49, Padraic Brown wrote:
            [snip]
            >
            > Interesting, but quite possibly crackpotty:
            >
            > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Polat_Kaya/

            Polat Kaya, eh? Definitely crackpotty then.

            He's the guy who claims the script on the Lemnos stele is
            a western Greek alphabet of the 6th century BC, but a script
            derived from 'runic' script of the Turkic Orhun and Yeniset
            inscriptions and other similar central Asian inscriptions.
            The language, of course, is not an Etruscan related one, as
            most think, but Turkic!
            http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Eteocretan/LemnianTrans.html#Kaya

            > Bet you didn't know that the ancient city of Troy is
            > actually the "Home of the Turks"! ;)))

            ... of course, and the Pelasgians were Turks. :-D

            --
            Ray
            ==================================
            http://www.carolandray.plus.com
            ==================================
            "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
            for individual beings and events."
            [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
          • R A Brown
            On 05/07/2013 07:55, R A Brown wrote: [snip] ... OOPS!! a negative got omitted there :( I should have written: He s the guy who claims the script on the
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 5, 2013
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              On 05/07/2013 07:55, R A Brown wrote:
              [snip]
              >
              > He's the guy who claims the script on the Lemnos stele
              > is a western Greek alphabet of the 6th century BC,

              OOPS!! a negative got omitted there :(

              I should have written: "He's the guy who claims the script
              on the Lemnos stele is _not_ a western Greek alphabet of the
              6th century BC,

              > but a script derived from 'runic' script of the Turkic
              > Orhun and Yeniset inscriptions and other similar central
              > Asian inscriptions

              I suppose I ought to have added that "and only
              coincidentally gives the appearance of a Greek script!"

              --
              Ray
              ==================================
              http://www.carolandray.plus.com
              ==================================
              "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
              for individual beings and events."
              [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
            • Jörg Rhiemeier
              Hallo conlangers! ... And most of the others Padraic suggested are also unhelpful, for various reasons. Substratumlanguages would in theory be exactly the
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 5, 2013
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                Hallo conlangers!

                On Friday 05 July 2013 08:55:27 R A Brown wrote:

                > On 05/07/2013 00:49, Padraic Brown wrote:
                > [snip]
                >
                > > Interesting, but quite possibly crackpotty:
                > >
                > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Polat_Kaya/
                >
                > Polat Kaya, eh? Definitely crackpotty then.

                And most of the others Padraic suggested are also unhelpful,
                for various reasons. Substratumlanguages would in theory be
                exactly the right thing (and I *am* there), but in practice,
                nobody posts there (and probably, nobody reads it). Cybalist
                is dedicated to IE studies, but it is de facto a Paleolithic
                Continuity mailing list, which is the reason why I have left it.
                The others are either not at all about European linguistic
                prehistory, or crackpotty, or both.

                I have been watching the Aegeanet archive lately, but apart
                from the list being limited to one particular region (and not
                even the ones where my interest is strongest, viz. Central
                Europe and the British Isles), it mostly carries announcements
                of conferences and similar stuff.

                > He's the guy who claims the script on the Lemnos stele is
                > a western Greek alphabet of the 6th century BC, but a script
                > derived from 'runic' script of the Turkic Orhun and Yeniset
                > inscriptions and other similar central Asian inscriptions.
                > The language, of course, is not an Etruscan related one, as
                > most think, but Turkic!
                > http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Eteocretan/LemnianTrans.html#Kaya

                Funny.

                > > Bet you didn't know that the ancient city of Troy is
                > > actually the "Home of the Turks"! ;)))
                >
                > ... of course, and the Pelasgians were Turks. :-D

                Turkish nationalism gone loopy.

                --
                ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
                http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
                "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
              • Padraic Brown
                ... Terribly sorry to hear that! The ones I picked were the *least* loopy ones I could find! All the rest were either neo-paganette reconstructionists,
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 5, 2013
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                  > From: Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...>

                  >
                  > And most of the others Padraic suggested are also unhelpful,
                  > for various reasons. 

                  Terribly sorry to hear that! The ones I picked were the *least* loopy ones
                  I could find! All the rest were either neo-paganette reconstructionists,
                  satanists, neo-nazis or various west Asian cultural groups (Pashto, Iranian,
                  Afghan, etc).

                  Hopefully someone can point you in a better direction!

                  >> > Bet you didn't know that the ancient city of Troy is
                  >> > actually the "Home of the Turks"! ;)))
                  >>
                  >> ... of course, and the Pelasgians were Turks. :-D
                  >
                  > Turkish nationalism gone loopy.

                  Oh, the hilarity!

                  Padraic
                • Padraic Brown
                  Voiceless dentals go yer ways,     see yez in some oblique case! Ablaut and Umlaut came to play,      a ə, e ae, u o naught! Mentolatian likes
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 17, 2013
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                    Voiceless dentals go yer ways,
                        see yez in some oblique case!

                    Ablaut and Umlaut came to play,
                         a > ə, e > ae, u > o > naught!
                    Mentolatian likes to take the nom. pl. of a noun and use that as a root
                    for a semantically extended series of nouns. For example, we have the
                    word dazg (house, roof, covering) whose plural is jí (from old dəzgí).
                    This plural becomes a new root, j- and can form a new word with a
                    common nominal stem, -un. Hence, jun, cloth. The plural of cloth, jní,
                    plus a different nominal stem, -aru, gives us sinaru, clothing. The plural
                    of clothing, snáer, yields a common word for a suit or wardrobe of
                    clothing, sneres. Finally, the plural of suits, zrəzí, plus a curious little
                    combining root, -sd (place where), gives us erzed, an armoir or dresser.

                    So, where the heck did dazg- go off to???

                    Padraic
                  • Virginia Keys
                    ... Voiceless dentals go yer ways,     see yez in some oblique case! Ablaut and Umlaut came to play,      a ə, e ae, u o naught! Mentolatian
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jul 20, 2013
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                      On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 20:11:10 -0700, Padraic Brown <elemtilas@...> wrote:

                      >

                      Voiceless dentals go yer ways,
                          see yez in some oblique case!

                      Ablaut and Umlaut came to play,
                           a > ə, e > ae, u > o > naught!
                      Mentolatian likes to take the nom. pl. of a noun and use that as a root
                      for a semantically extended series of nouns. For example, we have the
                      word dazg (house, roof, covering) whose plural is jí (from old dəzgí).
                      This plural becomes a new root, j- and can form a new word with a
                      common nominal stem, -un. Hence, jun, cloth. The plural of cloth, jní,
                      plus a different nominal stem, -aru, gives us sinaru, clothing. The plural
                      of clothing, snáer, yields a common word for a suit or wardrobe of
                      clothing, sneres. Finally, the plural of suits, zrəzí, plus a curious little
                      combining root, -sd (place where), gives us erzed, an armoir or dresser.

                      So, where the heck did dazg- go off to???

                      Padraic


                      Haha, nice! I find your post particularly interesting, as I had been trying to think of ways to grow families of words from roots. Food for thought!

                      --Virginia
                    • Padraic Brown
                      ... For some odd reason, it just made sense for the language to go this route. Some transformations are pretty obvious: enem (pl. nmí), spirit yields manzed,
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jul 21, 2013
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                        > From: Virginia Keys <virginiakeys@...>

                        >
                        > Mentolatian likes to take the nom. pl. of a noun and use that as a root
                        > for a semantically extended series of nouns. For example, we have the
                        > word dazg (house, roof, covering) whose plural is jí (from old dəzgí).
                        > This plural becomes a new root, j- and can form a new word with a
                        > common nominal stem, -un. Hence, jun, cloth. The plural of cloth, jní,
                        > plus a different nominal stem, -aru, gives us sinaru, clothing. The plural
                        > of clothing, snáer, yields a common word for a suit or wardrobe of
                        > clothing, sneres. Finally, the plural of suits, zrəzí, plus a curious little
                        > combining root, -sd (place where), gives us erzed, an armoir or dresser.
                        >
                        > Haha, nice! I find your post particularly interesting, as I had been trying to
                        > think of ways to grow families of words from roots. Food for thought!

                        For some odd reason, it just made sense for the language to go this route.
                        Some transformations are pretty obvious: enem (pl. nmí), spirit yields
                        manzed, chapel or temple. Some are not so: cwanu (pl. nwí), noblewoman
                        yields wanzed, inner court or newaru, debt servant. On the other hand,
                        another word for woman, mannu (pl. mní), yields nemaru, midwife. Other
                        transformational morphemes could extend these: nemaruta, health or
                        nemaruwan, to heal; newaruta, servitude.

                        Some of these require an understanding of the culture before they become
                        clear. The inner court of a Mentolatian greathouse is roughly what we might
                        consider a formal garden with the addition of ancillary rooms on either side:
                        library / reading room, a room for refreshment, etc. These are the women's
                        rooms and this is where Things Get Done --- quite literally the "seat of
                        power".

                        On the other hand, and I suppose in a curiously odd twist of fate, if
                        a family finds itself in debt, it has been traditional to sell the eldest daughter
                        into servitude for a prescribed length of time until the debt is considered paid.
                        This actually nearly brought about the destruction of the whole culture. Twas
                        nearly two centuries ago that  Mentolatum found itself in a scuffle with Auntimoany.
                        Scuffle ended, in typicaly Germanic fashion, the victorious Emperor at the time
                        sought to "seal the deal" with a royal marriage and quite naturally demanded
                        the daughter of the arquan in marriage. Consternation ensued -- after all, how
                        could the arquan condescend to sell off his daughter into slavery!? -- but there
                        being no real choice in the matter, the poor girl got sent away. Although she
                        apparently succumbed to some wasting illness within two years, every Mentolatian
                        knew it was really an act of honorable suicide. Anyway, Auntimoany went on its
                        merry way, while Mentolatum fell into a nasty civil war and economic depression.
                        The arquan was deposed and much that was fair in the country fell to ruin. Twas
                        only about fifty years ago that the arquanate was restored, but its reputation was
                        still very much tarnished. Much of the old esteem was refurbished five years ago
                        when the present arquan, on the anniversary of that ill-fated wedding, decreed
                        an end to the practice of newaruta.

                        Padraic

                        > --Virginia
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