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Re: Emphatic "even" in nat and conlangs.

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  • Douglas Koller
    ... I don t know if this particular example took you away from where you originally wanted to go, but... ... The Chinese runs with that interpretation: 惟 有
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 22, 2013
      > Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 13:06:13 -0300
      > From: leolucas1980@...
      > Subject: Emphatic "even" in nat and conlangs.
      > To: CONLANG@...

      > How do you express the concept of emphatic "even" in your conlangs? Do
      > you use any natlangs as inspiration?

      > Ecce some examples of the kind of usage I mean:

      > "I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou [...]"
      > http://biblehub.com/isaiah/51-12.htm

      I don't know if this particular example took you away from where you originally wanted to go, but...
      > Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 12:16:46 -0400
      > From: danny.c.bowman@...

      > I believe that your two usages are slightly different. I read the quote
      > from Isaiah as saying: I am the *only *one who comforts you.

      The Chinese runs with that interpretation: 惟 有 我 , 是 安 慰 你 们 的 "There is only me who..."

      > Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 19:35:00 +0100
      > From: ray@...

      > Interestingly, there is _no_ word in the Hebrew
      > corresponding to "even" of the King James version (and
      > several other, but not all, English versions):
      > http://interlinearbible.org/isaiah/51-12.htm

      For that matter, I don't see a word for "you" anywhere in the Hebrew gloss, either. It looks like every other language took the σε or vos and went to town with it.

      > I thought I'd check other ancient versions. The Septuagint has:
      > ἐγώ εἰμι ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ παρακαλῶν σε ...
      > I am I am the [one] comforting you ...

      > Once again no word corresponding to "even." :)

      > The Clementine version of the Vulgate has:
      > Ego, ego ipse consolabor vos.
      > I, I myself will-comfort you.

      > I guess the 'ipse' (-self) sort of corresponds to the
      > English "even." _ego ipse_ is rather like "moi-même" in French.

      > The new version of the Vulgate has:
      > Ego, ego ipse consolator vester.
      > I I myself [am] comforter your.

      > Therefore I would have:
      > ἐμέ ἔς ἐμέ ὅ παρακάλει σέ ...
      > I am I who comforts you ... Lest anyone have forgotten, σέ (read [si]) is the Géarthnuns word for "I". ;)

      > In other words, in those two languages there is nothing
      > corresponding to the English "even" - we are just saying "I
      > am I who ..."

      For "I, I am He who comforts.", Géarthnuns would probably run with, "Sí, sí gü seth, cheth la uth sho, nöi." ("gü", the auxiliary in the emphatic transcendent kind of has a "so put *that* in your pipe and smoke it" feel to it. -- Guys, I'm GOD already!! Haven't we nailed that down yet?!) For the following uses of "even": Even a child knows that.He was so moved that he even cried.Even the dog won't eat it.He wouldn't even say hello to me.

      Géarthnuns has four patterns, two loosely based on the Chinese "連...也/都..." (lian2...ye3/dou1...) strategy. It's *nice* to have something resumptive down at the end by the SOV verb now and again.

      > As for the other meaning of "even" - I'll leave that for the
      > moment.

      > Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 13:06:13 -0300
      > From: leolucas1980@...

      > "I was strong before; but now I am even stronger."
      > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/even

      And yet another word, another pattern in Géarthnuns.

      Kou
    • Douglas Koller
      ... He rains a lot, does he? :D Kou
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 22, 2013
        > Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 14:49:29 -0300
        > From: leolucas1980@...
        > Subject: Re: Emphatic "even" in nat and conlangs.
        > To: CONLANG@...

        > "Mesmo chovendo, ele foi à festa." (Even raining, he went to the party.)

        He rains a lot, does he? :D

        Kou
      • R A Brown
        ... [snip] ... Yes. ... I thinks so. ... My guess is that the translators found simply repeating ἐγώ (egṓ) simply un-Greek (ἐγὼ ἐγώ εἰμι
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 22, 2013
          On 21/06/2013 20:44, H. S. Teoh wrote:
          > On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 07:35:00PM +0100, R A Brown
          > wrote:
          >> On 21/06/2013 17:16, Daniel Bowman wrote:
          [snip]
          >> Interestingly, there is _no_ word in the Hebrew
          >> corresponding to "even" of the King James version (and
          >> several other, but not all, English versions):
          >> http://interlinearbible.org/isaiah/51-12.htm
          >
          > Now *that's* interesting!! I was just wondering exactly
          > the same thing -- what does the Hebrew say? It's
          > interesting that the pronoun is just repeated!

          Yes.

          > In that sense, it's not really a mirative as the English
          > would suggest, but IMO more of directing the attention
          > of the audience towards oneself, or emphasis on oneself.

          I thinks so.

          >> I thought I'd check other ancient versions. The
          >> Septuagint has: ἐγώ εἰμι ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ παρακαλῶν σε ... I
          >> am I am the [one] comforting you ...
          >>
          >> Once again no word corresponding to "even." :)
          >
          > That's curious, though. What does the repeated "I am"
          > signify in the Greek?

          My guess is that the translators found simply repeating ἐγώ
          (egṓ) simply "un-Greek" (ἐγὼ ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ παρακαλῶν ..). ἐγώ
          needs a verb, so I guess they found repeating subject and
          verb more acceptable. it has IMO the same effect: it
          directs attention to the subject - "I am, _I am_ the one
          comforts ...)

          [snip]
          >>
          >> The use of "even" in the various English versions
          >> seems to be to emphasize "I" which is simply repeated
          >> in the Hebrew version. One could have, I guess: "I,
          >> 'tis I, who comforts you ..."
          >
          > I think I like "I, 'tis I" better, in the sense of
          > closer correspondence with the original language.

          I think so, but I guess too colloquial (at that time) for
          the KJV translators.

          [snip]
          >>
          >> In other words, in those two languages there is nothing
          >> corresponding to the English "even" - we are just
          >> saying "I am I who ..."
          >
          > This is utterly fascinating. Why is it "I am I who ...
          > " rather than "I am he who ..."?

          Because "he" is specifically third person and I think in
          these two languages (TAKE & Outidic) the first person
          subject would attract the antecedent of the relative to
          first person as well.

          --
          Ray
          ==================================
          http://www.carolandray.plus.com
          ==================================
          "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
          for individual beings and events."
          [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
        • Daniel Prohaska
          Cornish has a number of translations for even depending on the context. I found them in the dictionaries by N.Williams and R. Gendall: ‹Kepar ev del devis,
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 22, 2013
            Cornish has a number of translations for even depending on the context. I found them in the dictionaries by N.Williams and R. Gendall:

            ‹Kepar ev del devis, yndella an bows a wre› "even as he grew, so did the coat"
            like he that grew (3sg.pret.) so the coat (rel.part.) did (impf.)

            ‹A ny wodhves unn prysweyth golyas.› "Could you not watch even for a moment."
            (interrog.part.) (neg.part.) know (2sg.impf.sbj.) one instant watching (vb.n.)

            ‹Ty ynwedh a yll convedhes henna.› "Even you can see/understand that."
            thou too (rel.part.) can (3sg.pres.fut.) understanding (vb.n.) that (m.).

            ‹Ny wonn y wul kyn fen ledhys› "I can't do it even if I died/I can't do it for the life of me"
            (neg.part) know-I (1sg.pres.) its doing (vb.n.) though be-I (1sg.impf.sbj.) killed (vb.adj.)

            ‹Ha mar teffewgh whei ha ponya eneth.› "Even if you run."
            And if come-you (2pl.impf.sbj.) you (pl.) and running (vb.n.) once

            ‹Me a vedn mos dei wos merwel.› "I'll go there even if I die."
            I (rel.part.) will (3sg.pres.) going (vb.n.) thither because-of dying (vb.n.)

            ‹Nei a dal tria ken ven nehys.› "We must try even if we get refused."
            we (rel.part.) must (3sg.pres.) trying (vb.n.) though be-we (1pl.impf.sbj.) denied (vb.adj.)

            ‹Whath lakka vel hedna.› or: ‹Whath moy lakka vel hedna.› "Even worse than that."
            still/yet worse than that (m.); or: yet more worse than that (m.)

            ‹Na alje'ma anella eneth.› "I couldn't even breathe."
            (neg.part) could (1sg.cnd.) breathe (vb.n.) once

            ‹Whath moy.› "even more"
            yet more

            ‹Ken na'm bo'ma lowena 'nodho.› "Even if I get no joy out of it."
            though (neg.part.) my (infixed prn.) be/have-I (1sg.pres.fut.sbj.) joy of-him


            Dan









            On Jun 22, 2013, at 11:35 AM, R A Brown wrote:

            > On 21/06/2013 20:44, H. S. Teoh wrote:
            >> On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 07:35:00PM +0100, R A Brown
            >> wrote:
            >>> On 21/06/2013 17:16, Daniel Bowman wrote:
            > [snip]
            >>> Interestingly, there is _no_ word in the Hebrew
            >>> corresponding to "even" of the King James version (and
            >>> several other, but not all, English versions):
            >>> http://interlinearbible.org/isaiah/51-12.htm
            >>
            >> Now *that's* interesting!! I was just wondering exactly
            >> the same thing -- what does the Hebrew say? It's
            >> interesting that the pronoun is just repeated!
            >
            > Yes.
            >
            >> In that sense, it's not really a mirative as the English
            >> would suggest, but IMO more of directing the attention
            >> of the audience towards oneself, or emphasis on oneself.
            >
            > I thinks so.
            >
            >>> I thought I'd check other ancient versions. The
            >>> Septuagint has: ἐγώ εἰμι ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ παρακαλῶν σε ... I
            >>> am I am the [one] comforting you ...
            >>>
            >>> Once again no word corresponding to "even." :)
            >>
            >> That's curious, though. What does the repeated "I am"
            >> signify in the Greek?
            >
            > My guess is that the translators found simply repeating ἐγώ
            > (egṓ) simply "un-Greek" (ἐγὼ ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ παρακαλῶν ..). ἐγώ
            > needs a verb, so I guess they found repeating subject and
            > verb more acceptable. it has IMO the same effect: it
            > directs attention to the subject - "I am, _I am_ the one
            > comforts ...)
            >
            > [snip]
            >>>
            >>> The use of "even" in the various English versions
            >>> seems to be to emphasize "I" which is simply repeated
            >>> in the Hebrew version. One could have, I guess: "I,
            >>> 'tis I, who comforts you ..."
            >>
            >> I think I like "I, 'tis I" better, in the sense of
            >> closer correspondence with the original language.
            >
            > I think so, but I guess too colloquial (at that time) for
            > the KJV translators.
            >
            > [snip]
            >>>
            >>> In other words, in those two languages there is nothing
            >>> corresponding to the English "even" - we are just
            >>> saying "I am I who ..."
            >>
            >> This is utterly fascinating. Why is it "I am I who ...
            >> " rather than "I am he who ..."?
            >
            > Because "he" is specifically third person and I think in
            > these two languages (TAKE & Outidic) the first person
            > subject would attract the antecedent of the relative to
            > first person as well.
            >
            > --
            > Ray
            > ==================================
            > http://www.carolandray.plus.com
            > ==================================
            > "language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
            > for individual beings and events."
            > [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
          • David McCann
            On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 14:49:29 -0300 ... We re talking about *focus particles* here: Additive: also, even, -self Particularising: especially Exclusive: only,
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 22, 2013
              On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 14:49:29 -0300
              Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...> wrote:

              > Well, as we see, what I call "emphatic even" could mean "oneself",
              > "although", "on the contrary of one could expect", "only", "by myself"
              > (?), etc. It's interesting that the Portuguese word "mesmo" also can
              > be used with all these senses.
              >
              > "Mesmo chovendo, ele foi à festa." (Even raining, he went to the
              > party.) "Eu o fiz, eu mesmo." (I did it by myself, by my own means.)
              > "Eles foram mesmo lá." (They were really there [maybe against what was
              > expected to happen].)
              >
              > So, I wonder if such a word is common in languages around the world.

              We're talking about *focus particles* here:
              Additive: also, even, -self
              Particularising: especially
              Exclusive: only, purely
              Identity: exactly

              Many languages have common strategies. The Latin use of 'et' for 'and'
              and 'also' is paralleled in some Uralic languages. Constructions like
              'all but he had fled' occur in Nahuatl and Thai.
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