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Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.

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  • Adam Walker
    Maybe this Macedonian movie I watched last week fits. The title is Before the Rain. The firs part of the movie is set in Macedonia and the characters speak
    Message 1 of 21 , May 25, 2013
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      Maybe this Macedonian movie I watched last week fits. The title is
      Before the Rain. The firs part of the movie is set in Macedonia and
      the characters speak either Macedonian or Albanian. The middle part
      happens in London and is in English except for a scene at a
      restaurant. Part three goes back to Macedonia. There are some phone
      calls in volving attempts to communicate without a common language
      that involve scattered bits of Macedonian, English, French, German and
      much frustration.

      Adam

      On 5/24/13, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...> wrote:
      > Do you have any suggestions of good linguistically realistic movies,
      > that is, movies that portray the languages or dialects as close as
      > possible to the ones used in the time and location of the story?
      >
      > Maybe "The Passion of the Christ" is a good example of what I'm
      > describing, and "Agora" is a good counter-example (with people in
      > Roman Egypt speaking English).
      >
      > Até mais!
      >
      > Leonardo
      >
    • Leonardo Castro
      Thanks to everyone for the suggestions! ... Yes, I had already heard about it and that it was a conscious choice of Mel Gibson.
      Message 2 of 21 , May 26, 2013
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        Thanks to everyone for the suggestions!

        2013/5/24 Dustfinger Batailleur <dustfinger42@...>:
        > The Passion had ecclesiastical Latin instead of Vulgar Latin spoken by the
        > Romans, so it's not exactly accurate.

        Yes, I had already heard about it and that it was a conscious choice
        of Mel Gibson.

        >
        >
        > On 24 May 2013 20:41, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...> wrote:
        >
        >> Do you have any suggestions of good linguistically realistic movies,
        >> that is, movies that portray the languages or dialects as close as
        >> possible to the ones used in the time and location of the story?
        >>
        >> Maybe "The Passion of the Christ" is a good example of what I'm
        >> describing, and "Agora" is a good counter-example (with people in
        >> Roman Egypt speaking English).
        >>
        >> Até mais!
        >>
        >> Leonardo
        >>
      • Leonardo Castro
        I ve just finished watching Amistad, that has English, Spanish and Mende. As it s a more recent story, I guess they didn t reconstruct anything. Até mais!
        Message 3 of 21 , May 28, 2013
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          I've just finished watching Amistad, that has English, Spanish and
          Mende. As it's a more recent story, I guess they didn't reconstruct
          anything.

          Até mais!

          Leonardo


          2013/5/26 Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...>:
          > Thanks to everyone for the suggestions!
          >
          > 2013/5/24 Dustfinger Batailleur <dustfinger42@...>:
          >> The Passion had ecclesiastical Latin instead of Vulgar Latin spoken by the
          >> Romans, so it's not exactly accurate.
          >
          > Yes, I had already heard about it and that it was a conscious choice
          > of Mel Gibson.
          >
          >>
          >>
          >> On 24 May 2013 20:41, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...> wrote:
          >>
          >>> Do you have any suggestions of good linguistically realistic movies,
          >>> that is, movies that portray the languages or dialects as close as
          >>> possible to the ones used in the time and location of the story?
          >>>
          >>> Maybe "The Passion of the Christ" is a good example of what I'm
          >>> describing, and "Agora" is a good counter-example (with people in
          >>> Roman Egypt speaking English).
          >>>
          >>> Até mais!
          >>>
          >>> Leonardo
          >>>
        • Leonardo Castro
          ... I m watching this movie right now. These are all still living languages, aren t they? BTW, I was watching the movie Gray Matters on YouTube* and then
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 18, 2014
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            2013/5/25 Adam Walker <carraxan@...>:
            > Maybe this Macedonian movie I watched last week fits. The title is
            > Before the Rain. The firs part of the movie is set in Macedonia and
            > the characters speak either Macedonian or Albanian. The middle part
            > happens in London and is in English except for a scene at a
            > restaurant. Part three goes back to Macedonia. There are some phone
            > calls in volving attempts to communicate without a common language
            > that involve scattered bits of Macedonian, English, French, German and
            > much frustration.
            >
            > Adam

            I'm watching this movie right now. These are all still living
            languages, aren't they?

            BTW, I was watching the movie "Gray Matters" on YouTube* and then
            YouTube suggested a lot of female-homosexuality-related movies. What
            surprised me is that the first suggested ones were in language which I
            had never before watched a movie in:

            Yes or No (Thai)
            Eloïse's Lover (Catalan)
            Rome & Juliet (Filipino)
            Fucking Åmål (Swedish)

            There was also "Nina's Heavenly Delights" that is actually in English
            but about Indian immigrants in Scotland.

            I wonder if there's something intrinsically more international in
            movies on this subject or if it's just a matter of being a subject
            that you must search many countries' productions to have a meaningful
            sample.

            *: I don't know if it's a copyright infringement, but I guess it's not
            up to me to know it, it's a problem between those that who posted and
            that have the copyright. Maybe there's some short phrase to say all of
            this I have just said. Maybe "no copyright infringement intended" or
            NCII?!

            Até mais!

            Leonardo

            >
            > On 5/24/13, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...> wrote:
            >> Do you have any suggestions of good linguistically realistic movies,
            >> that is, movies that portray the languages or dialects as close as
            >> possible to the ones used in the time and location of the story?
            >>
            >> Maybe "The Passion of the Christ" is a good example of what I'm
            >> describing, and "Agora" is a good counter-example (with people in
            >> Roman Egypt speaking English).
            >>
            >> Até mais!
            >>
            >> Leonardo
            >>.
          • Siva Kalyan
            It s been pointed out that The Passion of the Christ may not be entirely accurate, in that the Romans would probably have been speaking Koine Greek (at least
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 18, 2014
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              It's been pointed out that "The Passion of the Christ" may not be entirely
              accurate, in that the Romans would probably have been speaking Koine Greek
              (at least when addressing non-Romans) rather than Latin.


              On 19 January 2014 00:28, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...> wrote:

              > 2013/5/25 Adam Walker <carraxan@...>:
              > > Maybe this Macedonian movie I watched last week fits. The title is
              > > Before the Rain. The firs part of the movie is set in Macedonia and
              > > the characters speak either Macedonian or Albanian. The middle part
              > > happens in London and is in English except for a scene at a
              > > restaurant. Part three goes back to Macedonia. There are some phone
              > > calls in volving attempts to communicate without a common language
              > > that involve scattered bits of Macedonian, English, French, German and
              > > much frustration.
              > >
              > > Adam
              >
              > I'm watching this movie right now. These are all still living
              > languages, aren't they?
              >
              > BTW, I was watching the movie "Gray Matters" on YouTube* and then
              > YouTube suggested a lot of female-homosexuality-related movies. What
              > surprised me is that the first suggested ones were in language which I
              > had never before watched a movie in:
              >
              > Yes or No (Thai)
              > Eloïse's Lover (Catalan)
              > Rome & Juliet (Filipino)
              > Fucking Åmål (Swedish)
              >
              > There was also "Nina's Heavenly Delights" that is actually in English
              > but about Indian immigrants in Scotland.
              >
              > I wonder if there's something intrinsically more international in
              > movies on this subject or if it's just a matter of being a subject
              > that you must search many countries' productions to have a meaningful
              > sample.
              >
              > *: I don't know if it's a copyright infringement, but I guess it's not
              > up to me to know it, it's a problem between those that who posted and
              > that have the copyright. Maybe there's some short phrase to say all of
              > this I have just said. Maybe "no copyright infringement intended" or
              > NCII?!
              >
              > Até mais!
              >
              > Leonardo
              >
              > >
              > > On 5/24/13, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...> wrote:
              > >> Do you have any suggestions of good linguistically realistic movies,
              > >> that is, movies that portray the languages or dialects as close as
              > >> possible to the ones used in the time and location of the story?
              > >>
              > >> Maybe "The Passion of the Christ" is a good example of what I'm
              > >> describing, and "Agora" is a good counter-example (with people in
              > >> Roman Egypt speaking English).
              > >>
              > >> Até mais!
              > >>
              > >> Leonardo
              > >>.
              >
            • R A Brown
              ... It s not. A Roman official. especially one of Pilate s reputation, actually speaking Aramaic stretches the imagination a bit. ... ... and when they did
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 18, 2014
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                On 19/01/2014 00:09, Siva Kalyan wrote:
                > It's been pointed out that "The Passion of the Christ"
                > may not be entirely accurate,

                It's not. A Roman official. especially one of Pilate's
                reputation, actually speaking Aramaic stretches the
                imagination a bit.

                > in that the Romans would probably have been speaking
                > Koine Greek (at least when addressing non-Romans) rather
                > than Latin.

                ... and when they did speak Latin, they would not have been
                using the Italianate pronunciation of modern church Latin!

                A slight anachronism there, methinks :)

                --
                Ray
                ==================================
                http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                ==================================
                "'Celtic' of any sort is, nonetheless, a
                magic bag, into which anything may be put,
                and out of which almost anything may come
                . ... Anything is possible in the fabulous
                Celtic twilight, which is not so much a
                twilight of the gods as of the reason."
                [J.R.R. Tolkien]
              • Pete Bleackley
                Well, it was produced by a Sedevacantist, so you can t expect sanity, let alone accuracy. -- Pete Bleackley ... From: R A Brown To:
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 19, 2014
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                  Well, it was produced by a Sedevacantist, so you can't expect sanity, let alone accuracy.

                  --
                  Pete Bleackley

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: R A Brown <ray@...>
                  To: CONLANG@...
                  Sent: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 7:07
                  Subject: Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.

                  On 19/01/2014 00:09, Siva Kalyan wrote:
                  > It's been pointed out that "The Passion of the Christ"
                  > may not be entirely accurate,

                  It's not. A Roman official. especially one of Pilate's
                  reputation, actually speaking Aramaic stretches the
                  imagination a bit.

                  > in that the Romans would probably have been speaking
                  > Koine Greek (at least when addressing non-Romans) rather
                  > than Latin.

                  ... and when they did speak Latin, they would not have been
                  using the Italianate pronunciation of modern church Latin!

                  A slight anachronism there, methinks :)

                  --
                  Ray
                  ==================================
                  http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                  ==================================
                  "'Celtic' of any sort is, nonetheless, a
                  magic bag, into which anything may be put,
                  and out of which almost anything may come
                  . ... Anything is possible in the fabulous
                  Celtic twilight, which is not so much a
                  twilight of the gods as of the reason."
                  [J.R.R. Tolkien]
                • R A Brown
                  ... I know. ... I agree with you on both points; and there is more I could say - but that would be trespassing well into NCNC territory. I think it suffices to
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 19, 2014
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                    On 19/01/2014 08:41, Pete Bleackley wrote:
                    > Well, [The Passion of the Christ] was produced by a
                    > Sedevacantist,

                    I know.

                    > so you can't expect sanity, let alone accuracy.

                    I agree with you on both points; and there is more I could
                    say - but that would be trespassing well into NCNC territory.

                    I think it suffices to say on the list that the film is
                    _not_ an example of a linguistically realistic film.

                    The languages of this film have been discussed on this list
                    before. Anyone interested should be able to find the thread
                    in the conlang archives.

                    --
                    Ray
                    ==================================
                    http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                    ==================================
                    "'Celtic' of any sort is, nonetheless, a
                    magic bag, into which anything may be put,
                    and out of which almost anything may come
                    . ... Anything is possible in the fabulous
                    Celtic twilight, which is not so much a
                    twilight of the gods as of the reason."
                    [J.R.R. Tolkien]
                  • Roger Mills
                    Please enlighten me-- what is _ Sedevacantist_? On Sunday, January 19, 2014 3:38 AM, Pete Bleackley wrote: Well, it was
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 19, 2014
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                      Please enlighten me-- what is _ Sedevacantist_?




                      On Sunday, January 19, 2014 3:38 AM, Pete Bleackley <pete.bleackley@...> wrote:

                      Well, it was produced by a Sedevacantist, so you can't expect sanity, let alone accuracy.

                      --
                      Pete Bleackley


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: R A Brown <ray@...>
                      To: CONLANG@...
                      Sent: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 7:07
                      Subject: Re: Suggestions of linguistically realistic movies.

                      On 19/01/2014 00:09, Siva Kalyan wrote:
                      > It's been pointed out that "The Passion of the Christ"
                      > may not be entirely accurate,

                      It's not.  A Roman official. especially one of Pilate's
                      reputation, actually speaking Aramaic stretches the
                      imagination a bit.

                      > in that the Romans would probably have been speaking
                      > Koine Greek (at least when addressing non-Romans) rather
                      > than Latin.

                      ... and when they did speak Latin, they would not have been
                      using the Italianate pronunciation of modern church Latin!

                      A slight anachronism there, methinks  :)

                      --
                      Ray
                      ==================================
                      http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                      ==================================
                      "'Celtic' of any sort is, nonetheless, a
                      magic bag, into which anything may be put,
                      and out of which almost anything may come
                      . ... Anything is possible in the fabulous
                      Celtic twilight, which is not so much a
                      twilight of the gods as of the reason."
                      [J.R.R. Tolkien]
                    • Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones
                      ... LMGTFY ;-): Apparently (according to Wikipedia), a Sedevacantist is someone who thinks the papal seat (sede, in Latin) has been vacant since the death of
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 19, 2014
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                        On 19 Jan 2014 17:45, "Roger Mills" <romiltz@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Please enlighten me-- what is _ Sedevacantist_?
                        >
                        >
                        LMGTFY ;-):

                        Apparently (according to Wikipedia), a Sedevacantist is someone who thinks
                        the papal seat (sede, in Latin) has been vacant since the death of either
                        Pius XII or Pius X, because the successors of each were, apparently,
                        sinners who supported the heresy of Modernism.

                        I hope they don't use cars, indoor toilets or decent sanitation...!

                        Jeff
                      • R A Brown
                        ... Pius X died in 1914 - indoors toilets and decent sanitation were around then; there were even cars, tho far fewer than today :) When Pius XII dies in
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 19, 2014
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                          On 19/01/2014 19:29, Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones wrote:
                          > On 19 Jan 2014 17:45, "Roger Mills" <romiltz@...>
                          > wrote:
                          >>
                          >> Please enlighten me-- what is _ Sedevacantist_?
                          >>
                          >>
                          > LMGTFY ;-):
                          >
                          > Apparently (according to Wikipedia), a Sedevacantist is
                          > someone who thinks the papal seat (sede, in Latin) has
                          > been vacant since the death of either Pius XII or Pius X,
                          > because the successors of each were, apparently, sinners
                          > who supported the heresy of Modernism.
                          >
                          > I hope they don't use cars, indoor toilets or decent
                          > sanitation...!

                          Pius X died in 1914 - indoors toilets and decent sanitation
                          were around then; there were even cars, tho far fewer than
                          today :)

                          When Pius XII dies in 1958, there were even quite a lot of
                          cars about. It was my first year at University :)

                          Modernism in theological terms is nothing to do with
                          toilets, sanitation or anything other artifact of the modern
                          world (it was in origin a movement among liberal Protestants
                          - but you can look it up if you interested). Apparently
                          some of them accuse Paul VIth of this - the same Pope that
                          many in the heyday of Vatican II accused of being too
                          conservative! It's like a politician being accused by some
                          of being ultra-liberal and by others of being too
                          conservative. Oh well, you can't please them all ;)

                          _sede_ BTW is the ablative of _sedes_. The term
                          'sedevacantist' is derived from the Latin ablative absolute
                          phrase: sede vacante = the seat being vacant.

                          I see the Wikipedia article mentions those who think that all
                          Popes from the time of Benedict V onwards have been invalid.
                          I've never come across that before and, if they do exist,
                          they are a *tiny* minority.

                          Now-a-days sedevacantist is normally understood to mean
                          those who think that John XXIII (the Pope who called the 2nd
                          Vatican Council) was invalidly elected & consecrated and
                          that the See of Peter has been vacant ever since; they do
                          not, of course, recognize Vatican II as a valid council of
                          the Catholic Church and, indeed, believe that council took
                          the bulk of the Church into heresy.

                          I think I've possibly said enough to clarify things and have
                          gone more than far enough into NCNC territory.

                          I suggest we just accept that "The Passion of the Christ" is
                          not a good example of a linguistically realistic movie and
                          leave it at that - and return to the original thread.

                          --
                          Ray
                          ==================================
                          http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                          ==================================
                          "'Celtic' of any sort is, nonetheless, a
                          magic bag, into which anything may be put,
                          and out of which almost anything may come
                          . ... Anything is possible in the fabulous
                          Celtic twilight, which is not so much a
                          twilight of the gods as of the reason."
                          [J.R.R. Tolkien]
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