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Re: Conaccents.

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  • Nina-Kristine Johnson
    Nice! And is your conlang spoken with different accents in your conworld (if you have one)? --Leonardo Well by* World* you mean like Tolkien,
    Message 1 of 10 , May 11, 2013
      "Nice! And is your conlang spoken with different accents in your
      conworld (if you have one)?"--Leonardo

      Well by* World* you mean like Tolkien, fantasy-stuff...no.

      But I am making a low-budget, YouTube movie in this language (I'm a total
      amateur!). I have some scenes filmed, already and its going well.

      The *World* in this movie is present-day Earth and it plays with "What if
      English was not the dominate language?" (Ehenív takes the place of
      English--English is a minority language).

      Yes, I have a bit of a superiority complex. LOL

      Cheers!,
      N. Kristine


      On 11 May 2013 08:33, H. S. Teoh <hsteoh@...> wrote:

      > On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 09:32:36AM -0300, Leonardo Castro wrote:
      > > Do you folks have your own conaccents? Do they apply only to your own
      > > conlangs or to natlagns too?
      > >
      > > Have you alreday created any conaccent to be used by yourself in a
      > > natlang (maybe your native one)?
      > [...]
      >
      > Conaccent? Are you talking about prosody? Or dialectal differences in a
      > conlang?
      >
      > Tatari Faran definitely has its own flavor of prosody... I've yet to
      > work it all out, but so far, I've found some rather interesting
      > patterns. For example, if only one NP is present:
      >
      > tara' sa tapa bata.
      > 3SG CVY walk FIN
      > [tâ4a? sa tapá bata]
      > He is walking.
      >
      > TF is pitch-accented, so I'm transcribing with IPA pitches/tones here.
      > Note that the verb _tapa_, which has lexical stress on the 2nd syllable,
      > is assigned high pitch in this case, followed by the finalizer _bata_
      > which is always pronounced with low pitch. The first NP _tara' sa_ also
      > "receives stress", meaning that lexical stress within its constituents
      > are expressed as high pitch.
      >
      > Now if an additional NP were added to the clause:
      >
      > tara' sa tapa misanan dei bata.
      > tara' sa tapa misanan nei bata.
      > 3SG CVY walk village RCP FIN
      > [tâ4a? sā tapà misânan dej bata]
      > He is walking to the village.
      >
      > Here, the presence of the second NP before the finalizer changes the
      > intonation pattern: the second NP "receives stress", but now the verb
      > _tapa_ is pronounced with low pitch -- its lexical stress is not
      > expressed. In fact, it's almost as though it now receives "low pitch
      > stress", such that even the case particle _sa_, which is never stressed,
      > is now assigned a mid-level pitch.
      >
      > However, if an adverb is present, then the verb's lexical stress is
      > expressed again:
      >
      > tara' sa tapa tsat misanan dei bata.
      > tara' sa tapa tsat misanan nei bata.
      > 3SG CVY walk fast village RCP FIN
      > [tâ4a? sa tapá ts)at misânan dej bata]
      > He is walking quickly to the village.
      >
      > If there are two NPs following the verb, the prosody changes again:
      >
      > tara' sa tapa buta' kei misanan dei bata.
      > tara' sa tapa buta' kei misanan nei bata.
      > 3SG CVY walk hut ORG village RCP FIN
      > [tâ4a? sā tapà butá? keī misânan dej bata]
      > He is walking from the hut to the village.
      >
      > There's a feature here I don't quite know how to represent in the IPA:
      > the high pitch in the NP _misanan dei_ is pronounced higher than in the
      > NP _buta' kei_. One might say that this sentence has 3 peaks: at the
      > beginning of the sentence with the first NP, falling into a valley at
      > the verb _tapa_, then rising to a (lower) peak in _buta' kei_, then to a
      > higher peak in _misanan dei_, then falling back to a low-pitch valley in
      > the finalizer _bata_.
      >
      > Interestingly enough -- and this is what I've only recently noticed --
      > this prosodic contour means that the NP immediately before the finalizer
      > receives more stress than the NP preceding it, which makes it more
      > preferable to place an NP you want to emphasize in that position. So in
      > the example above, "to the village" is emphasized; if we were to swap
      > the two NPs following the verb, then it would be "from the hut" that
      > would be emphasized. This would be the more unusual word order, since
      > generally speaking, one would tend to emphasize the destination of an
      > action more than its origin. IOW, prosody in TF has an effect on word
      > order preference! I was quite happy to discover this emergent effect.
      >
      > This isn't all there is to TF prosody, of course. Adding adjectives into
      > the mix also changes the way NPs are stressed. Furthermore, there are a
      > small number of words that have inherently low lexical pitch (I called
      > them enclitics, but I'm not so sure that's the correct term anymore).
      > These words alter the prosody by forcing the pitch to be low even when
      > the NP they occur in "receive stress". Some words like _tse_ ("you
      > (sg)") go so far as to even force adjacent case particles to become high
      > pitch, even though they would never do so otherwise. This makes for
      > unusual reversals of the usual prosodic contours, which may have
      > consequences on NP ordering within the clause (I haven't fully explored
      > the consequences yet).
      >
      >
      > T
      >
      > --
      > The early bird gets the worm. Moral: ewww...
      >
    • Leonardo Castro
      ... I think there s no problem in creating a fictional language that will conquer the world. Some others have already done it too, haven t they? ...
      Message 2 of 10 , May 16, 2013
        2013/5/11 Nina-Kristine Johnson <ninakristinej@...>:
        > "Nice! And is your conlang spoken with different accents in your
        > conworld (if you have one)?"--Leonardo
        >
        > Well by* World* you mean like Tolkien, fantasy-stuff...no.
        >
        > But I am making a low-budget, YouTube movie in this language (I'm a total
        > amateur!). I have some scenes filmed, already and its going well.
        >
        > The *World* in this movie is present-day Earth and it plays with "What if
        > English was not the dominate language?" (Ehenív takes the place of
        > English--English is a minority language).
        >
        > Yes, I have a bit of a superiority complex. LOL

        :-)
        I think there's no problem in creating a fictional language that will
        conquer the world. Some others have already done it too, haven't they?

        >
        > Cheers!,
        > N. Kristine
        ---

        >
        > On 11 May 2013 08:33, H. S. Teoh <hsteoh@...> wrote:
        >> [...]
        >> If there are two NPs following the verb, the prosody changes again:
        >>
        >> tara' sa tapa buta' kei misanan dei bata.
        >> tara' sa tapa buta' kei misanan nei bata.
        >> 3SG CVY walk hut ORG village RCP FIN
        >> [tâ4a? sā tapà butá? keī misânan dej bata]
        >> He is walking from the hut to the village.
        >>
        >> There's a feature here I don't quite know how to represent in the IPA:
        >> the high pitch in the NP _misanan dei_ is pronounced higher than in the
        >> NP _buta' kei_. One might say that this sentence has 3 peaks: at the
        >> beginning of the sentence with the first NP, falling into a valley at
        >> the verb _tapa_, then rising to a (lower) peak in _buta' kei_, then to a
        >> higher peak in _misanan dei_, then falling back to a low-pitch valley in
        >> the finalizer _bata_.
        >>
        >> Interestingly enough -- and this is what I've only recently noticed --
        >> this prosodic contour means that the NP immediately before the finalizer
        >> receives more stress than the NP preceding it, which makes it more
        >> preferable to place an NP you want to emphasize in that position. So in
        >> the example above, "to the village" is emphasized; if we were to swap
        >> the two NPs following the verb, then it would be "from the hut" that
        >> would be emphasized. This would be the more unusual word order, since
        >> generally speaking, one would tend to emphasize the destination of an
        >> action more than its origin. IOW, prosody in TF has an effect on word
        >> order preference! I was quite happy to discover this emergent effect.

        Interesting! Do you think there's something similar to this in natlangs?

        ---

        BTW, by "conaccent" I mean also accents created to speak natlangs,
        including one's own native language. For instance, my sister has
        conciously changed some features of her Brazilian Portuguese
        pronunciation that she disliked, although everybody around her spoke
        that way. In her (and my) native accent, there's an intrusive /i/ in
        words like "mas" and "três" _ [mais] and [treis] _ but she now
        pronounces them as [mas] and [tres]. It's maybe more a matter of
        influence of orthography/origin than pronunciation prestige, because
        the most widely-broadcast accent (Rio de Janeiro) has [maiS] and
        [treiS].
      • George Marques de Jesus
        2013/5/16 Leonardo Castro ... I do the same, I avoid that extra /i/ in speech, though I never thought of it as a conaccent George
        Message 3 of 10 , May 16, 2013
          2013/5/16 Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...>


          > BTW, by "conaccent" I mean also accents created to speak natlangs,
          > including one's own native language. For instance, my sister has
          > conciously changed some features of her Brazilian Portuguese
          > pronunciation that she disliked, although everybody around her spoke
          > that way. In her (and my) native accent, there's an intrusive /i/ in
          > words like "mas" and "três" _ [mais] and [treis] _ but she now
          > pronounces them as [mas] and [tres]. It's maybe more a matter of
          > influence of orthography/origin than pronunciation prestige, because
          > the most widely-broadcast accent (Rio de Janeiro) has [maiS] and
          > [treiS].
          >

          I do the same, I avoid that extra /i/ in speech, though I never thought of
          it as a "conaccent"

          George Marques
          http://georgemarques.com.br
        • Leonardo Castro
          ... Well, there s some extrapolation in calling it this way, but a concious process involving many changes like this could be properly considered as a
          Message 4 of 10 , May 16, 2013
            2013/5/16 George Marques de Jesus <georgemjesus@...>:
            > 2013/5/16 Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...>
            >
            >
            >> BTW, by "conaccent" I mean also accents created to speak natlangs,
            >> including one's own native language. For instance, my sister has
            >> conciously changed some features of her Brazilian Portuguese
            >> pronunciation that she disliked, although everybody around her spoke
            >> that way. In her (and my) native accent, there's an intrusive /i/ in
            >> words like "mas" and "três" _ [mais] and [treis] _ but she now
            >> pronounces them as [mas] and [tres]. It's maybe more a matter of
            >> influence of orthography/origin than pronunciation prestige, because
            >> the most widely-broadcast accent (Rio de Janeiro) has [maiS] and
            >> [treiS].
            >>
            >
            > I do the same, I avoid that extra /i/ in speech, though I never thought of
            > it as a "conaccent"

            Well, there's some extrapolation in calling it this way, but a
            concious process involving many changes like this could be properly
            considered as a conaccent. Sometimes, I read texts in Portuguese "how
            it's written", that is, no [o] and [e] reduction to [u] and [i], no
            palatization of [d]'s and [t]'s before i, etc., but people always
            think that I'm just mimic Gaucho accent...

            >
            > George Marques
            > http://georgemarques.com.br
          • Douglas Koller
            ... Wow, I don t recall us getting a whole lot of YAPPT s around these parts. I like it! :D Kou
            Message 5 of 10 , May 16, 2013
              > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 12:55:01 -0300
              > From: leolucas1980@...
              > Subject: Re: Conaccents.
              > To: CONLANG@...

              > 2013/5/16 George Marques de Jesus <georgemjesus@...>:
              > > 2013/5/16 Leonardo Castro leolucas1980@...

              > >> For instance, my sister has
              > >> conciously changed some features of her Brazilian Portuguese
              > >> pronunciation that she disliked, although everybody around her spoke
              > >> that way. In her (and my) native accent, there's an intrusive /i/ in
              > >> words like "mas" and "três" _ [mais] and [treis] _ but she now
              > >> pronounces them as [mas] and [tres]. It's maybe more a matter of
              > >> influence of orthography/origin than pronunciation prestige, because
              > >> the most widely-broadcast accent (Rio de Janeiro) has [maiS] and
              > >> [treiS].

              > > I do the same, I avoid that extra /i/ in speech,

              > Sometimes, I read texts in Portuguese "how
              > it's written", that is, no [o] and [e] reduction to [u] and [i], no
              > palatization of [d]'s and [t]'s before i, etc., but people always
              > think that I'm just mimic Gaucho accent...

              Wow, I don't recall us getting a whole lot of YAPPT's around these parts. I like it! :D

              Kou
            • H. S. Teoh
              On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 08:34:03AM -0300, Leonardo Castro wrote: [...] ... [...] I don t know if this happens in any natlangs, but it seems likely that
              Message 6 of 10 , May 19, 2013
                On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 08:34:03AM -0300, Leonardo Castro wrote:
                [...]
                > > On 11 May 2013 08:33, H. S. Teoh <hsteoh@...> wrote:
                > >> [...]
                > >> If there are two NPs following the verb, the prosody changes again:
                > >>
                > >> tara' sa tapa buta' kei misanan dei bata.
                > >> tara' sa tapa buta' kei misanan nei bata.
                > >> 3SG CVY walk hut ORG village RCP FIN
                > >> [tâ4a? sā tapà butá? keī misânan dej bata]
                > >> He is walking from the hut to the village.
                > >>
                > >> There's a feature here I don't quite know how to represent in the
                > >> IPA: the high pitch in the NP _misanan dei_ is pronounced higher
                > >> than in the NP _buta' kei_. One might say that this sentence has 3
                > >> peaks: at the beginning of the sentence with the first NP, falling
                > >> into a valley at the verb _tapa_, then rising to a (lower) peak in
                > >> _buta' kei_, then to a higher peak in _misanan dei_, then falling
                > >> back to a low-pitch valley in the finalizer _bata_.
                > >>
                > >> Interestingly enough -- and this is what I've only recently noticed
                > >> -- this prosodic contour means that the NP immediately before the
                > >> finalizer receives more stress than the NP preceding it, which
                > >> makes it more preferable to place an NP you want to emphasize in
                > >> that position. So in the example above, "to the village" is
                > >> emphasized; if we were to swap the two NPs following the verb, then
                > >> it would be "from the hut" that would be emphasized. This would be
                > >> the more unusual word order, since generally speaking, one would
                > >> tend to emphasize the destination of an action more than its
                > >> origin. IOW, prosody in TF has an effect on word order preference!
                > >> I was quite happy to discover this emergent effect.
                >
                > Interesting! Do you think there's something similar to this in
                > natlangs?
                [...]

                I don't know if this happens in any natlangs, but it seems likely that
                something like that may have given rise to preference for certain word
                orders in specific situations in languages that allow relatively free
                word order, like Russian.

                Now, my Russian isn't all that good, but I do notice that in
                interrogative prosody ("question intonation" or something like that, I
                think that's what they call it), you tend to want to put high pitch on
                the word being questioned and give the rest of the sentence a drop in
                pitch. Now obviously, if the word in question (har har) is following by
                too long a trailing clause, this isn't going to work (you'd have a long
                string of words in monotonous low pitch); so it seems that there's a
                sweet spot where, within the constraints of grammar, you'd want to
                arrange your words so that the characteristic high-low pitch drop
                happens in the most convenient place -- not too far in front, but not
                too near the end either. So there's at least some influence of prosody
                on word order here, perhaps purely historical?

                But a native speaker should fill in the fudged description here. :)

                (And BTW I'm totally in love with Russian prosody, even if I'm rather
                poor at it... it's just sooo quaint and expressive, even mellifluous.
                Definitely not what I expected based on my wrong impressions of it from
                the stereotypical caricatures you hear on TV & in movies.)


                T

                --
                By understanding a machine-oriented language, the programmer will tend
                to use a much more efficient method; it is much closer to reality. -- D.
                Knuth
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