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Re: Congratulations to David Peterson on DEFIANCE!

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  • Matthew George
    Well, there s the official website here , and the Wikipedia page here .
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 17, 2013
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      Well, there's the official website here <http://www.defiance.com/en/>, and
      the Wikipedia page here<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defiance_%28TV_series%29>
      .

      There's also a series-specific wiki here <http://defiance-wiki.com/>, but
      it seems to be non-functional at present. Also it's illegal to copy any
      information from it, which seems... odd, since accessing the site produces
      copies of the information and it's trivial to save pages. But... there you
      are.

      So far I find the languages more interesting than the series, which is
      pretty standard if you've read many roleplaying game settings. It's
      okayish.

      Matt G.
    • George Corley
      ... I like the basic concept of the setting. It certainly hits a lot of general sci-fi tropes, but that s not necessarily a bad thing. I think overall it
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 17, 2013
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        On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 4:33 PM, Matthew George <matt.msg@...> wrote:

        >
        > So far I find the languages more interesting than the series, which is
        > pretty standard if you've read many roleplaying game settings. It's
        > okayish.
        >

        I like the basic concept of the setting. It certainly hits a lot of
        general sci-fi tropes, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I think
        overall it will be quite entertaining.
      • Matthew George
        I found myself trying to assign D&D stat modifiers and alignments to the various races as I watched the show. Matt G.
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 17, 2013
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          I found myself trying to assign D&D stat modifiers and alignments to the
          various races as I watched the show.

          Matt G.
        • George Corley
          ... The show does have a companion video game (a shooter MMO). I wouldn t be too surprised if they licensed a table-top setting if it continues to succeed. I
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 17, 2013
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            On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Matthew George <matt.msg@...> wrote:

            > I found myself trying to assign D&D stat modifiers and alignments to the
            > various races as I watched the show.
            >
            > Matt G.
            >

            The show does have a companion video game (a shooter MMO). I wouldn't be
            too surprised if they licensed a table-top setting if it continues to
            succeed.

            I will say that Castithans and Irathients, from their supplemental
            descriptions, fit into the two stereotypical Elf groups somewhat
            (Castithans as High Elves, and Irathients as hippy nature elves).
          • John Q
            I found a really great (and lengthy) fan Q&A that David Peterson did a few days ago on Reddit. Incredibly informative. The link is:
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 19, 2013
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              I found a really great (and lengthy) fan Q&A that David Peterson did a few days ago on Reddit. Incredibly informative. The link is:

              http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1chmc4/eseneziri_im_david_peterson_the_creator_of_the/

              Contained within the conversation are some great links, including the following absolutely hilarious spot featuring a Teach Yourself Castithan product for Spanish speakers:

              http://www.mun2.tv/news/entertainment/learn-castithan-and-watch-defiance-april-15-98c-only-syfy


              And I wish David had told me about the following "Linguistics Goes to Hollywood" event that occurred last night, featuring David, Klingon creator Mark Okrand, and Na'vi creator Paul Frommer. I would've liked to have gone! (OK, well maybe I'd rather have been in L.A. seeing Rush being inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, but David & Co. would've been a close runner-up!) http://ling.ucsd.edu/docs/events/hollywood.html

              --John Q.
            • Adam Walker
              David did announce that event some while back, though it might have been on FB. I can t recall at this remove. I, too, would have loved to be there. Adam
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 19, 2013
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                David did announce that event some while back, though it might have
                been on FB. I can't recall at this remove. I, too, would have loved
                to be there.

                Adam

                On 4/19/13, John Q <jquijada21@...> wrote:
                > I found a really great (and lengthy) fan Q&A that David Peterson did a few
                > days ago on Reddit. Incredibly informative. The link is:
                >
                > http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1chmc4/eseneziri_im_david_peterson_the_creator_of_the/
                >
                > Contained within the conversation are some great links, including the
                > following absolutely hilarious spot featuring a Teach Yourself Castithan
                > product for Spanish speakers:
                >
                > http://www.mun2.tv/news/entertainment/learn-castithan-and-watch-defiance-april-15-98c-only-syfy
                >
                >
                > And I wish David had told me about the following "Linguistics Goes to
                > Hollywood" event that occurred last night, featuring David, Klingon creator
                > Mark Okrand, and Na'vi creator Paul Frommer. I would've liked to have gone!
                > (OK, well maybe I'd rather have been in L.A. seeing Rush being inducted
                > into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, but David & Co. would've been a close
                > runner-up!) http://ling.ucsd.edu/docs/events/hollywood.html
                >
                > --John Q.
                >
              • John Q
                ... Oops! Got the date wrong. It s tonight! If anyone in the San Diego area is planning to go, maybe you can video-capture the event and post it?
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 19, 2013
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                  >And I wish David had told me about the following "Linguistics Goes to Hollywood" event that occurred last night, featuring David, Klingon creator Mark Okrand, and Na'vi creator Paul Frommer. I would've liked to have gone! (OK, well maybe I'd rather have been in L.A. seeing Rush being inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, but David & Co. would've been a close runner-up!) http://ling.ucsd.edu/docs/events/hollywood.html
                  >

                  Oops! Got the date wrong. It's tonight! If anyone in the San Diego area is planning to go, maybe you can video-capture the event and post it?
                • BPJ
                  ... I looked at it and learnt something new: the term heritage language (Thanks DP and JQ!). I wonder how I can have missed it all these years, as I m a lx
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 19, 2013
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                    2013-04-19 18:31, John Q skrev:
                    > I found a really great (and lengthy) fan Q&A that David Peterson did a few days ago on Reddit. Incredibly informative. The link is:
                    >
                    > http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1chmc4/eseneziri_im_david_peterson_the_creator_of_the/

                    I looked at it and learnt something new: the term "heritage
                    language" (Thanks DP and JQ!). I wonder how I can have missed
                    it all these years, as I'm a lx nerd *and* a double heritage
                    language speaker. I've always felt a bit guilty for mostly
                    losing what actually was my first language, and it's always
                    comforting to be one of a crowd rather than a stupid loner,
                    isn't it?! ;-)

                    I guess several of us have experience of being a heritage
                    language speaker, yet I think the subject has never come up.

                    /bpj
                  • John Q
                    ... Personally I wouldn t know, as all my pathetic attempts in my youth to be one of the crowd always ended in embarrassing failure. So for me, the stupid
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 19, 2013
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                      BPJ <bpj@...> wrote:

                      >I looked at it and learnt something new: the term "heritage
                      >language" . . . I've always felt a bit guilty for mostly
                      >losing what actually was my first language, and it's always
                      >comforting to be one of a crowd rather than a stupid loner,
                      >isn't it?! ;-)
                      --------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Personally I wouldn't know, as all my pathetic attempts in my youth to be one of the crowd always ended in embarrassing failure. So for me, the "stupid loner" route has always been the only path available (although I wouldn't apply the "stupid" half of the moniker in my case). As for the heritage language issue, my parents were both native Spanish speakers but never taught it to their children. So I had to learn Spanish in high school and college.

                      John Q.
                    • H. S. Teoh
                      ... Interesting. In my youth, I actually took pride in being out of the crowd. (So much so one day the headmaster called me into his office to ask why I was so
                      Message 10 of 25 , Apr 19, 2013
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                        On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 06:49:18PM -0400, John Q wrote:
                        > BPJ <bpj@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > >I looked at it and learnt something new: the term "heritage
                        > >language" . . . I've always felt a bit guilty for mostly
                        > >losing what actually was my first language, and it's always
                        > >comforting to be one of a crowd rather than a stupid loner,
                        > >isn't it?! ;-)
                        > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Personally I wouldn't know, as all my pathetic attempts in my youth to
                        > be one of the crowd always ended in embarrassing failure.

                        Interesting. In my youth, I actually took pride in being out of the
                        crowd. (So much so one day the headmaster called me into his office to
                        ask why I was so "different" from the other kids.) It wasn't until
                        college that I "opened up" socially.


                        > As for the heritage language issue, my parents were both native
                        > Spanish speakers but never taught it to their children. So I had to
                        > learn Spanish in high school and college.
                        [...]

                        It's sad, but inevitable: IIRC statistics show that native languages of
                        immigrants tend to die off after about 3 generations or so.

                        I'm seeing it all around me: Canadian-born descendents of Chinese
                        immigrants can't speak any Chinese after about 3 generations or so; a
                        Russian kid who immigrated here with his parents now only speaks Russian
                        to his mother alone (I can see how his kids will hardly speak a word of
                        Russian -- probably just a handful of words to talk to their grandma --
                        and *their* kids will completely lose the language altogether). Many
                        Chinese immigrant parents fight an uphill battle to retain the mother
                        tongue in their children, who are generally unwilling to learn it 'cos
                        they simply have no incentive to (their friends are either purely
                        English speakers or are in a similar situation of being forced to attend
                        extracurriculum Chinese classes and hating it). So they grow up
                        illiterate, and their kids will probably not speak a word of the
                        language at all.

                        I'm believe this happens with any minority group that is immersed in an
                        environment that predominantly speaks another language. There are
                        exceptions, of course, like immigrants who live in Chinatown all their
                        lives -- but then they form a kind of clique so that there is still an
                        environment in which the language is still being exclusively used.
                        Without such exclusive environment of some sort, it seems that in about
                        3 generations they will be assimilated.


                        T

                        --
                        It's bad luck to be superstitious. -- YHL
                      • BPJ
                        ... Ditto, and notice the winking smiley! There be irony! It wasn t until I dared to seek out other nerds that I finally fit in somewhere. ... I both took
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 20, 2013
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                          2013-04-20 01:16, H. S. Teoh skrev:
                          > On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 06:49:18PM -0400, John Q wrote:
                          >> BPJ <bpj@...> wrote:
                          >>
                          >>> I looked at it and learnt something new: the term "heritage
                          >>> language" . . . I've always felt a bit guilty for mostly
                          >>> losing what actually was my first language, and it's always
                          >>> comforting to be one of a crowd rather than a stupid loner,
                          >>> isn't it?! ;-)
                          >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
                          >>
                          >> Personally I wouldn't know, as all my pathetic attempts in my youth to
                          >> be one of the crowd always ended in embarrassing failure.

                          Ditto, and notice the winking smiley! There be irony!

                          It wasn't until I dared to seek out other nerds
                          that I finally fit in somewhere.

                          >
                          > Interesting. In my youth, I actually took pride in being out of the
                          > crowd. (So much so one day the headmaster called me into his office to
                          > ask why I was so "different" from the other kids.) It wasn't until
                          > college that I "opened up" socially.

                          I both took pride in my otherness and suffered from it
                          both at my first school for motor disabled children and
                          later at ordinary school, being the only one who was
                          nerdy in both places. Being the oddball in a small
                          place ain't fun!

                          >> As for the heritage language issue, my parents were both native
                          >> Spanish speakers but never taught it to their children. So I had to
                          >> learn Spanish in high school and college.
                          > [...]

                          I was entitled to German 'home language' classes at
                          school, with meagre results: I can't really spell, my
                          grammar is so-so and there are big holes in my
                          vocabulary -- and the entire preterite is missing from
                          my morphology! I later got passable grades in ordinary
                          German classes thanks to my killer pronunciation and
                          comprehension, and am reasonably able to translate
                          German to Swedish, but my English is way better; after
                          all I manage to get paid for translating *into*
                          English! I don't speak German even with my mother
                          anymore. Visiting Germany is terrible: the combination
                          of having cerebral palsy, a perfect phonology and
                          crappy grammar/vocabulary gives people very wrong
                          ideas. I usually try to fake a thick Swedish accent.

                          >
                          > It's sad, but inevitable: IIRC statistics show that native languages of
                          > immigrants tend to die off after about 3 generations or so.

                          Yeah. I have friends with various heritage languages,
                          some of whom have kids/nephews/nieces and can only
                          confirm. My kids know no Finnish (their mom's
                          heritage language) and only varying degrees of
                          ordinary school German.

                          I even felt shame about my heritage language: I was
                          bullied for speaking "the Nazi language". Once I got
                          complimented for the same thing which was even worse!

                          /bpj
                        • David Peterson
                          ... That latter is a major problem for most heritage speakers: Great pronunciation, poor grammar. If you visit the country and they think of you as a
                          Message 12 of 25 , Apr 20, 2013
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                            On Apr 20, 2013, at 1:44 PM, BPJ <bpj@...> wrote:

                            > Visiting Germany is terrible: the combination
                            > of having cerebral palsy, a perfect phonology and
                            > crappy grammar/vocabulary gives people very wrong
                            > ideas.

                            That latter is a major problem for most heritage speakers: Great pronunciation, poor grammar. If you visit the country and they think of you as a foreigner, you're fine: they'll just treat you like a non-speaker. But if you pronounce anything or say anything and you sound native, they're really puzzled (and sometimes upset) that you're not perfectly fluent. It's like, "You just introduced yourself and ordered food fine. What's wrong with you?" Makes a lot of heritage speakers feel ashamed of the knowledge they *do* have and try to hide it.

                            David Peterson
                            LCS President
                            president@...
                            www.conlang.org
                          • H. S. Teoh
                            ... [...] Whoa. You just perfectly described my experience with Chinese (Mandarin)... I can speak it pretty fluently -- for casual conversations, anyway -- but
                            Message 13 of 25 , Apr 20, 2013
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                              On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 02:25:05PM -0700, David Peterson wrote:
                              > On Apr 20, 2013, at 1:44 PM, BPJ <bpj@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > Visiting Germany is terrible: the combination
                              > > of having cerebral palsy, a perfect phonology and
                              > > crappy grammar/vocabulary gives people very wrong
                              > > ideas.
                              >
                              > That latter is a major problem for most heritage speakers: Great
                              > pronunciation, poor grammar. If you visit the country and they think
                              > of you as a foreigner, you're fine: they'll just treat you like a
                              > non-speaker. But if you pronounce anything or say anything and you
                              > sound native, they're really puzzled (and sometimes upset) that you're
                              > not perfectly fluent. It's like, "You just introduced yourself and
                              > ordered food fine. What's wrong with you?" Makes a lot of heritage
                              > speakers feel ashamed of the knowledge they *do* have and try to hide
                              > it.
                              [...]

                              Whoa. You just perfectly described my experience with Chinese
                              (Mandarin)... I can speak it pretty fluently -- for casual
                              conversations, anyway -- but I'm illiterate and have a lot of trouble
                              when it comes to more technical vocabulary (and sometimes even certain
                              common words). Sometimes I shy away from speaking it, because as soon as
                              someone hears my pronunciation they assume that I can understand 100% no
                              matter how technical the conversation gets -- and then they're surprised
                              when I fumble. Or sometimes I'm carrying out a conversation in perfect
                              Mandarin and then they're surprised that I don't know a common word or
                              expression. :-(

                              Ironically enough, something similar happened with my Russian. I've paid
                              a lot of attention to proper pronunciation and grammar but my every-day
                              vocabulary is pretty poor. So native speakers are often delighted that I
                              don't "sound like a foreigner" -- but then they start saying something
                              beyond my comprehension, and are surprised or greatly disappointed when
                              I have trouble following them (or am totally lost, as often happens).

                              Sigh. That's the problem with being a conlanger: I pay too much
                              attention to grammar/phonotactics and neglect boring old
                              vocabulary-building. :-P


                              T

                              --
                              Gone Chopin. Bach in a minuet.
                            • BPJ
                              ... One solution which I ve sometimes used when it comes to ordering food is to go to ethnic resturants where the staff can be expected not to speak perfect
                              Message 14 of 25 , Apr 20, 2013
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                                2013-04-20 23:25, David Peterson skrev:
                                > On Apr 20, 2013, at 1:44 PM, BPJ <bpj@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >> Visiting Germany is terrible: the combination of
                                >> having cerebral palsy, a perfect phonology and
                                >> crappy grammar/vocabulary gives people very
                                >> wrong ideas.
                                >
                                > That latter is a major problem for most heritage
                                > speakers: Great pronunciation, poor grammar. If you
                                > visit the country and they think of you as a
                                > foreigner, you're fine: they'll just treat you like a
                                > non-speaker. But if you pronounce anything or say
                                > anything and you sound native, they're really puzzled
                                > (and sometimes upset) that you're not perfectly
                                > fluent. It's like, "You just introduced yourself and
                                > ordered food fine. What's wrong with you?" Makes a
                                > lot of heritage speakers feel ashamed of the
                                > knowledge they *do* have and try to hide it.

                                One solution which I've sometimes used when it comes to
                                ordering food is to go to ethnic resturants where the staff
                                can be expected not to speak perfect German themselves.
                                They won't notice, care or have an attitude. I've eaten
                                lots of souvlaki in Germany! :-)

                                Last time we were over someone got visibly upset that I
                                who sat in a wheelchair could speak German but my wife
                                who 'drove' couldn't. I have to put up with that
                                particular kind of crap too! It's the same everywhere
                                of course and I've gotten used to just ignore it to the
                                point that I don't notice it anymore but it was so
                                obvious in that situation.

                                /bpj
                              • George Corley
                                ... This problem is by no means restricted to heritage speakers. Being the kind of person who can get reasonably accurate pronunciations very quickly and even
                                Message 15 of 25 , Apr 20, 2013
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                                  On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 4:25 PM, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:

                                  > On Apr 20, 2013, at 1:44 PM, BPJ <bpj@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Visiting Germany is terrible: the combination
                                  > > of having cerebral palsy, a perfect phonology and
                                  > > crappy grammar/vocabulary gives people very wrong
                                  > > ideas.
                                  >
                                  > That latter is a major problem for most heritage speakers: Great
                                  > pronunciation, poor grammar. If you visit the country and they think of you
                                  > as a foreigner, you're fine: they'll just treat you like a non-speaker. But
                                  > if you pronounce anything or say anything and you sound native, they're
                                  > really puzzled (and sometimes upset) that you're not perfectly fluent. It's
                                  > like, "You just introduced yourself and ordered food fine. What's wrong
                                  > with you?" Makes a lot of heritage speakers feel ashamed of the knowledge
                                  > they *do* have and try to hide it.


                                  This problem is by no means restricted to heritage speakers. Being the
                                  kind of person who can get reasonably accurate pronunciations very quickly
                                  and even learn to say common phrases at fairly normal talking speeds,
                                  people can easily overestimate the ability. Of course, most of my
                                  non-English communication is in Chinese, so people know immediately from
                                  other cues that I'm not a native (I am, of course, very white), so it
                                  doesn't really get people too upset. I'm not sure if I can get my Spanish
                                  fast enough to make someone think I'm a native -- maybe an experiment to
                                  try, I certainly have an odd and unplaceable accent (not gringo so much as
                                  just weirdly generic).
                                • Adam Walker
                                  ... LOL. The one and only time I went to Europe I spent my first three days in German-speaking lands -- Day one in Germany and the next two in Austria. I
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Apr 20, 2013
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                                    On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 4:52 PM, BPJ <bpj@...> wrote:

                                    > One solution which I've sometimes used when it comes to
                                    >>
                                    > ordering food is to go to ethnic resturants where the staff
                                    > can be expected not to speak perfect German themselves.
                                    > They won't notice, care or have an attitude. I've eaten
                                    > lots of souvlaki in Germany! :-)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    LOL. The one and only time I went to Europe I spent my first three days in
                                    German-speaking lands -- Day one in Germany and the next two in Austria. I
                                    don't speak any German more than numbers and a few random words, but I
                                    wanted to make a go as much as possible with my phrasebook (The only phrase
                                    I remember is "Bitte, vo ist Pfeilgasse?" oh and "mit utan fizz"). By the
                                    third day, my brain was fried. German is just one language that never
                                    clicks in my brain. So when I happened upon a Chinese restaurant with a
                                    menu in Chinese posted in the window I lept for joy, went inside and
                                    confounded the poor folks by not understanding anything in German, but
                                    being able to order whatever I wanted in Chinese. Inwardly, as I scarfed
                                    my German-style Chinese food, I was rejoicing at the opportunity to speak a
                                    sensible language. The next day I was in Budapest. (Hol van Vaci Utsa?)

                                    Adam
                                  • Adam Walker
                                    You can achieve the same effect in phone conversations where they can t see that you re pigmentally challenged. It happened to me a couple of times. It was
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Apr 20, 2013
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                                      You can achieve the same effect in phone conversations where they can't see
                                      that you're pigmentally challenged. It happened to me a couple of times.
                                      It was quite fun. Stupid bits of vocabulary that any five-year-old should
                                      know gave me away.

                                      Adam


                                      On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 4:55 PM, George Corley <gacorley@...> wrote:

                                      > On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 4:25 PM, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > On Apr 20, 2013, at 1:44 PM, BPJ <bpj@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > > Visiting Germany is terrible: the combination
                                      > > > of having cerebral palsy, a perfect phonology and
                                      > > > crappy grammar/vocabulary gives people very wrong
                                      > > > ideas.
                                      > >
                                      > > That latter is a major problem for most heritage speakers: Great
                                      > > pronunciation, poor grammar. If you visit the country and they think of
                                      > you
                                      > > as a foreigner, you're fine: they'll just treat you like a non-speaker.
                                      > But
                                      > > if you pronounce anything or say anything and you sound native, they're
                                      > > really puzzled (and sometimes upset) that you're not perfectly fluent.
                                      > It's
                                      > > like, "You just introduced yourself and ordered food fine. What's wrong
                                      > > with you?" Makes a lot of heritage speakers feel ashamed of the knowledge
                                      > > they *do* have and try to hide it.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > This problem is by no means restricted to heritage speakers. Being the
                                      > kind of person who can get reasonably accurate pronunciations very quickly
                                      > and even learn to say common phrases at fairly normal talking speeds,
                                      > people can easily overestimate the ability. Of course, most of my
                                      > non-English communication is in Chinese, so people know immediately from
                                      > other cues that I'm not a native (I am, of course, very white), so it
                                      > doesn't really get people too upset. I'm not sure if I can get my Spanish
                                      > fast enough to make someone think I'm a native -- maybe an experiment to
                                      > try, I certainly have an odd and unplaceable accent (not gringo so much as
                                      > just weirdly generic).
                                      >
                                    • Krista D. Casada
                                      I get that kind of thing a lot because I who use a power wheelchair speak Spanish, and my parents who are often with me don t much. My parents think it s kind
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Apr 22, 2013
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                                        I get that kind of thing a lot because I who use a power wheelchair speak Spanish, and my parents who are often with me don't much. My parents think it's kind of hilarious. The chair has really caused the most head-scratching among my Lao friends, though, where it has been a much huger problem as I've been learning.

                                        Krista C.
                                        ________________________________________
                                        From: Constructed Languages List [CONLANG@...] on behalf of BPJ [bpj@...]
                                        Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 4:52 PM
                                        To: CONLANG@...
                                        Subject: Re: Heritage language (was: Re: Congratulations to David Peterson on DEFIANCE!)


                                        Last time we were over someone got visibly upset that I
                                        who sat in a wheelchair could speak German but my wife
                                        who 'drove' couldn't. I have to put up with that
                                        particular kind of crap too! It's the same everywhere
                                        of course and I've gotten used to just ignore it to the
                                        point that I don't notice it anymore but it was so
                                        obvious in that situation.

                                        /bpj
                                      • George Corley
                                        That gets into a whole other issue of how people view the disabled. I wonder how that perception would vary depending on what they recognized as your
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Apr 22, 2013
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                                          That gets into a whole other issue of how people view the disabled. I
                                          wonder how that perception would vary depending on what they recognized as
                                          your ethnicity, since they apparently (and horribly ignorantly) are
                                          equating physical disability with mental disability.


                                          On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 1:13 PM, Krista D. Casada <kcasada@...> wrote:

                                          > I get that kind of thing a lot because I who use a power wheelchair speak
                                          > Spanish, and my parents who are often with me don't much. My parents think
                                          > it's kind of hilarious. The chair has really caused the most
                                          > head-scratching among my Lao friends, though, where it has been a much
                                          > huger problem as I've been learning.
                                          >
                                          > Krista C.
                                          > ________________________________________
                                          > From: Constructed Languages List [CONLANG@...] on behalf
                                          > of BPJ [bpj@...]
                                          > Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 4:52 PM
                                          > To: CONLANG@...
                                          > Subject: Re: Heritage language (was: Re: Congratulations to David Peterson
                                          > on DEFIANCE!)
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Last time we were over someone got visibly upset that I
                                          > who sat in a wheelchair could speak German but my wife
                                          > who 'drove' couldn't. I have to put up with that
                                          > particular kind of crap too! It's the same everywhere
                                          > of course and I've gotten used to just ignore it to the
                                          > point that I don't notice it anymore but it was so
                                          > obvious in that situation.
                                          >
                                          > /bpj
                                          >
                                        • George Corley
                                          ... That would be interesting. Frankly, I don t think my Chinese is really good enough to pass. I often say things that baffle Chinese friends, choose the
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Apr 22, 2013
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                                            On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 7:43 PM, Adam Walker <carraxan@...> wrote:

                                            > You can achieve the same effect in phone conversations where they can't see
                                            > that you're pigmentally challenged. It happened to me a couple of times.
                                            > It was quite fun. Stupid bits of vocabulary that any five-year-old should
                                            > know gave me away.
                                            >
                                            > Adam
                                            >

                                            That would be interesting. Frankly, I don't think my Chinese is really
                                            good enough to pass. I often say things that baffle Chinese friends,
                                            choose the wrong tones, or have unnatural intonation (due to concentrating
                                            on the lexical tones). Perhaps with some practice.
                                          • Krista D. Casada
                                            Well, one little Lao girl about seven checked me out the other day (I have light brown hair and am a very average Caucasian-looking sort) and asked her mother,
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Apr 22, 2013
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                                              Well, one little Lao girl about seven checked me out the other day (I have light brown hair and am a very average Caucasian-looking sort) and asked her mother, "Is SHE Lao?" So they are dealing as best they can, I think!

                                              Krista
                                              ________________________________________
                                              From: Constructed Languages List [CONLANG@...] on behalf of George Corley [gacorley@...]
                                              Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 1:29 PM
                                              To: CONLANG@...
                                              Subject: Re: Heritage language (was: Re: Congratulations to David Peterson on DEFIANCE!)

                                              That gets into a whole other issue of how people view the disabled. I
                                              wonder how that perception would vary depending on what they recognized as
                                              your ethnicity, since they apparently (and horribly ignorantly) are
                                              equating physical disability with mental disability.


                                              On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 1:13 PM, Krista D. Casada <kcasada@...> wrote:

                                              > I get that kind of thing a lot because I who use a power wheelchair speak
                                              > Spanish, and my parents who are often with me don't much. My parents think
                                              > it's kind of hilarious. The chair has really caused the most
                                              > head-scratching among my Lao friends, though, where it has been a much
                                              > huger problem as I've been learning.
                                              >
                                              > Krista C.
                                              > ________________________________________
                                              > From: Constructed Languages List [CONLANG@...] on behalf
                                              > of BPJ [bpj@...]
                                              > Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 4:52 PM
                                              > To: CONLANG@...
                                              > Subject: Re: Heritage language (was: Re: Congratulations to David Peterson
                                              > on DEFIANCE!)
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Last time we were over someone got visibly upset that I
                                              > who sat in a wheelchair could speak German but my wife
                                              > who 'drove' couldn't. I have to put up with that
                                              > particular kind of crap too! It's the same everywhere
                                              > of course and I've gotten used to just ignore it to the
                                              > point that I don't notice it anymore but it was so
                                              > obvious in that situation.
                                              >
                                              > /bpj
                                              >
                                            • BPJ
                                              ... Not necessarily. Many have an attitude which I for lack of a better term call puerilizing -- acting and communicating in an adult-to-child manner, even
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Apr 22, 2013
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                                                2013-04-22 20:29, George Corley skrev:
                                                > That gets into a whole other issue of how people view the disabled. I
                                                > wonder how that perception would vary depending on what they recognized as
                                                > your ethnicity, since they apparently (and horribly ignorantly) are
                                                > equating physical disability with mental disability.

                                                Not necessarily. Many have an attitude which I for lack
                                                of a better term call "puerilizing" -- acting and
                                                communicating in an adult-to-child manner, even though
                                                I'm obviously in my forties and bearded, as opposed to
                                                talking to me as if I'm 'retarded'. People seem to
                                                assume that a person in a wheelchair needs to be
                                                taken care of/looked after. For whatever reason
                                                I'm not getting nearly as much of that when I walk on
                                                crutches. People also ask if they can help a lot more
                                                when I'm in the chair. It's also a cultural thing; I
                                                get a lot more offers for help in/by people from English-
                                                speaking and 'southern' countries than from (non-Brit)
                                                northern European countries. There is a lot of cultural
                                                variation in how they react when I decline help.
                                                Men in some countries apparently get disturbed that
                                                I'm 'looked after' by my wife. Some people get into a panic
                                                when I grab the crutches and rise from the chair. For
                                                some it's clearly a matter of not knowing how to adjust
                                                when I 'become an adult', or whatever barrier I'm
                                                breaking in their eyes.

                                                /bpj

                                                >
                                                >
                                                > On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 1:13 PM, Krista D. Casada <kcasada@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >> I get that kind of thing a lot because I who use a power wheelchair speak
                                                >> Spanish, and my parents who are often with me don't much. My parents think
                                                >> it's kind of hilarious.

                                                My wife is the one who gets upset. I just roll my eyes.

                                                >> The chair has really caused the most
                                                >> head-scratching among my Lao friends, though, where it has been a much
                                                >> huger problem as I've been learning.
                                                >>
                                                >> Krista C.
                                                >> ________________________________________
                                                >> From: Constructed Languages List [CONLANG@...] on behalf
                                                >> of BPJ [bpj@...]
                                                >> Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2013 4:52 PM
                                                >> To: CONLANG@...
                                                >> Subject: Re: Heritage language (was: Re: Congratulations to David Peterson
                                                >> on DEFIANCE!)
                                                >>
                                                >>
                                                >> Last time we were over someone got visibly upset that I
                                                >> who sat in a wheelchair could speak German but my wife
                                                >> who 'drove' couldn't. I have to put up with that
                                                >> particular kind of crap too! It's the same everywhere
                                                >> of course and I've gotten used to just ignore it to the
                                                >> point that I don't notice it anymore but it was so
                                                >> obvious in that situation.
                                                >>
                                                >> /bpj
                                                >>
                                                >
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