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Re: New Year / Easter Greetings to All

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  • Padraic Brown
    ... I guess it would depend on the powers these telepaths have. Perhaps some, like the famous werehound physicians of Angera, who can sniff out a whole host of
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 1, 2013
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      --- On Sun, 3/31/13, George Corley <gacorley@...> wrote:

      > > If you mean the actual Emissary of the P.M., and also someone who is
      > > not otherwise bonkers, then you'd also have a straightforward task.
      > > But you will have to decide how the psychic priests and others react
      > > to this truth. How they deal with the real McCoy.
      >
      > To be honest, it isn't immediately obvious that a telepath
      > would be able to determine whether someone is mentally ill. 

      I guess it would depend on the powers these telepaths have. Perhaps some,
      like the famous werehound physicians of Angera, who can sniff out a whole
      host of ordinary diseases, there might be a psychic equivalent of the
      very powerful sniffer.

      > I would suspect that, depending on how deep a telepath can probe into
      > the subjects mind, it would probably be far easier to determine whether
      > someone was deliberately lying than whether they believed something that
      > was not true.

      Could well be. This would at least weed out some of the baser charlatans.

      > How would you even determine that their mental representation of the
      > world is broken -- absent methods of analysis developed outside of your
      > telepathic powers?

      I'm sure the peoples in question have some ideas already formed as to
      what is "right".

      But I wasn't really getting at how they would deal with an honest nut-case
      (I don't think it would necessarily take a psychically gifted seeker to
      sort that out) so much as how they would handle the Real Deal when it does
      come along...

      Padraic
    • Roger Mills
      Thanks to all for the many and varied responses to my idea, which is just that, though it s been kicking around for quite a while, actually.... The problem
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 1, 2013
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        Thanks to all for the many and varied responses to my idea, which is just that, though it's been kicking around for quite a while, actually....

        The problem with it being an event in Kash history is precisely their telepathic ability and resultant cultural cohesiveness. Even so, anciently, telepathy was just something that happened to exist, in various strengths. Most people just used it in their social relationships, and weren't very skilled. Those who were skilled (and sometimes frightened by it) early on gravitated to the priestly caste (shamans more or less), whose job was thought to be "to communicate with the Spirits of the natural world"-- these were considered to be manifestations on earth of the Primum Mobile ("e parahambesa"), who was considered to be unapproachable. IT (for lack of a proper pronoun), having created the universe and set it in motion, withdrew to other tasks and took no further note of IT's creation.

        The priests, as they found more skilled people (by sniffing them out in schools and/or just hanging around "eavesdropping"  on people's mental conversations), branched off into the Law, Medicine, Psychology, occasionally Education. Some became advisors to rulers, or to business men who used them to pry into the competition's motives (now considered a no-no, though it happens :-)) )  Some ("lawyers, psychologists") were able to probe quite deeply into others' minds (usually only with permission, except in the case of criminals). Very few ordinary people knew how to block such probes.

        The very very few (I think I've written " about one per generation" ) who had real power-- i.e. could control another person-- usually found their way into the rulers'  bodyguard, provided they were detected. If not, they were sometimes tempted to misuse their power, whihc of course led to their being found out and dealt with, sometimes harshly.

        The priests never figured out how to increase or train the ability. That changed when the Aliens arrive about 250 years ago. Some were very skilled telepaths, esp. the " blue"  people, who came from an oxygen-poor planet, and barely used speech. They did know how to train and increase the ability, and set about assessing as many Kash as they could, training them, and often offering them posts in the Galactic Unity.

        In the meantime, " medicine" had evolved from belief in malign spiritual possession to an actual science, the " law" was codified and no longer "revealed" , the "psychologists" evolved into something resembling psychiatrists/therapists.

        The Lañ-lañ are too small a population, also cohesive in the old days (though not telepathic), and pretty firm in their beliefs about how they and the world were created.

        So that's why I think a Messiah figure is going to have to be a Gwr phenomenon, since in early times they had an expanding empire, aristocracy, slavery, much like the Romans here.

        This has gone on long enough, so I'll sign off. Perhaps to be continued later......

        --- On Mon, 4/1/13, Padraic Brown <elemtilas@...> wrote:

        From: Padraic Brown <elemtilas@...>
        Subject: Re: New Year / Easter Greetings to All
        To: CONLANG@...
        Date: Monday, April 1, 2013, 6:52 AM

        --- On Sun, 3/31/13, George Corley <gacorley@...> wrote:

        > > If you mean the actual Emissary of the P.M., and also someone who is
        > > not otherwise bonkers, then you'd also have a straightforward task.
        > > But you will have to decide how the psychic priests and others react
        > > to this truth. How they deal with the real McCoy.
        >
        > To be honest, it isn't immediately obvious that a telepath
        > would be able to determine whether someone is mentally ill. 

        I guess it would depend on the powers these telepaths have. Perhaps some,
        like the famous werehound physicians of Angera, who can sniff out a whole
        host of ordinary diseases, there might be a psychic equivalent of the
        very powerful sniffer.

        > I would suspect that, depending on how deep a telepath can probe into
        > the subjects mind, it would probably be far easier to determine whether
        > someone was deliberately lying than whether they believed something that
        > was not true.

        Could well be. This would at least weed out some of the baser charlatans.

        > How would you even determine that their mental representation of the
        > world is broken -- absent methods of analysis developed outside of your
        > telepathic powers?

        I'm sure the peoples in question have some ideas already formed as to
        what is "right".

        But I wasn't really getting at how they would deal with an honest nut-case
        (I don't think it would necessarily take a psychically gifted seeker to
        sort that out) so much as how they would handle the Real Deal when it does
        come along...

        Padraic
      • Roger Mills
        ... Dangerously close to NCNC to claim that virgin birth, etc., are co-opted from other mythical traditions implying that they didn t really happen in the life
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 13, 2013
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          --- On Sun, 3/31/13, C. Brickner <tepeyachill@...> wrote:
          Dangerously close to NCNC to claim that virgin birth, etc., are co-opted from other mythical traditions implying that they didn't really happen in the life of Jesus.

          That myths and legends evolved over time I do not doubt.  That this is the case with respect to Jesus I deny.

          Charles

          ----- Original Message -----
          On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:

          Um, it's a fairly common theory among Biblical scholars that "Son of God"
          was a very common title for spiritual teachers at the time, and it just
          happened to be co-opted into a larger mythos as the stories of Jesus took
          on virgin birth, resurrection, and miracle-performing elements from other
          mythical traditions.

          More basically -- myths and legends evolved over time.  People don't even
          need to be "fooled" at the time -- subsequent generations will almost
          certainly have imperfect information and will even deliberately embellish
          stories for a variety of reasons.
          =======================================================

          Going back in time a bit:  Charlie, I did not write that; Geo.Corley wrote it in response to my original post about the idea of a Christ-analogue in one of the Cindu cultures........

          Actually, (aside from the "Son of God" statement, which I'd never heard) there is nothing particularly new in his post. The Middle East was a hotbed of religious speculations and syncretism in those days. Egyptian and Greek myths/religions and Zoroastrianism were all well-known; a sort of  "proto"-Gnosticism ~dualistic (though later) Manicheism, and  Mithraism were developing then; maybe even some Buddhist beliefs had found their way into the area via Persia. IIRC even Judaism underwent some changes as a result of the "Babylonian Captivity" centuries before.

          As for my 3 species on Cindu, I don't yet have much about their religious traditions (except for the Kash). I do "know" that the main Kash and Gwr nations have become somewhat secular in outlook as they have modernized, though (at least among the Kash) there are those who still adhere to traditional practices and beliefs. I''ve never developed a "creation myth" for either the Kash or Gwr; there is a rudimentary one for the Lañ-lañ....
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