Re: CHAT: Does etymology awareness affect your speech?
- On 21 March 2013 03:24, Herman Miller <hmiller@...> wrote:
> On 3/20/2013 2:12 PM, George Corley wrote:Same in Moten, where the verbs _ja|zi|n_ and _joplej_ both mean anything
>> This is really not an unusual shift. Chinese has the same word for both,
>> and many English dialects have "learn" taking on the meaning of "teach" as
>> well as "learn". There just seems to be something about these kinds of
>> terms that lets this sort of consolidation occur. Maybe it's just that
>> it's so clear from context who is the "giver" and "reciever" that you
>> really only need one term.
> That's the case in Jarda, where the "giver" and "receiver" are
> respectively in the ergative and dative cases, so the same verb is used for
> both meanings without confusion.
from "to give", "to receive", "to take", "to bring", "to get", "to put",
"to transfer", etc. depending on the participants in the clause (whether
mentioned explicitly or implied by context). There are still two verbs, but
the difference between them has to do with the general "direction" of the
transfer rather than the role of the participants. _Ja|zi|n_ implies a
transfer towards the speaker, i.e. from the listener to the speaker, or
from a third party to the listener or the speaker, or from a third party to
another third party, but the speaker feels that this transfer is somehow
advantageous to them. _Joplej_ is the opposite, indicating a transfer away
from the speaker, i.e. from speaker to listener or third party, from
listener to third party, and from third party to third party if that
transfer is neutral or disadvantageous to the speaker.
Moten speakers seem to have a lot of fun with those verbs :P .
> Similarly "teach" vs. "learn", "buy" vs. "sell".In Moten, _ivajagi_ means both "to learn, to study" and "to teach" (in both
> siv "teach, learn"
> źum "give, receive"
> ņêm "borrow, lend"
> zul "buy, sell"
cases, the object is the subject taught or studied). The distinction
between those two senses surfaces mostly in actor nouns derived from this
verb: a student is _vajagzif_, literally "learner", while a teacher is
_vajagnon_, literally "teaching artist/craftsman" (in Moten, teaching is
considered a _bel_, i.e. an art or craft).
- On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Matthew George <matt.msg@...> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 11:35 PM, George Corley <gacorley@...>Alright. I will say that "borrow" for "loan" is not something that I
> > What exactly are you talking about?
> The introduction of 'borrow' as a synonym for 'loan'. It's a very
> different case from the use of 'learn' as you describe.
> I have no prescriptivist impulses regarding 'learn' - it's the borrow-loan
> shift that I'm rejecting.
immediately recognize, and even have the same intuition as you (that the
interlocutor is being asked to borrow something on behalf of the speaker).
Still, it exists and should be accounted for, regardless of whether either
of us accept it intuitively, and we can easily do by comparing it to a
pattern that exists cross-linguistically.