Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Creating a Proto-language

Expand Messages
  • Patrick Dunn
    You don t *need* to have a protolanguage. A lot of us like to do that because we find figuring out the sound changes to be fun, but if you think it s a chore,
    Message 1 of 28 , Mar 21 6:47 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      You don't *need* to have a protolanguage. A lot of us like to do that
      because we find figuring out the sound changes to be fun, but if you think
      it's a chore, skip it.



      On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
      goldyemoran@...> wrote:

      > So, I was wong, and do need to create the language. Any name ideas?
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
      > Behalf Of Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones
      > Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 5:47 AM
      > To: CONLANG@...
      > Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language
      >
      > You need to devise a series of sound shifts by which Yardish derived from
      > the proto-language, but in reverse. For example, if Yardish has /j/, you
      > could derive it from /g/ before a front vowel, (possibly via /dzh/, which
      > would give you an allophone of /g/; then you could posit the loss of front
      > vowels after /j/, which would result in /g/ being a different phoneme from
      > /j/. To make it more realistic, you also need to devise a phonology for the
      > proto-language from which derive the sound-changed which lead to Yardish,
      > possibly along with lexical, morphological and syntactic differences.
      >
      > Jeff
      >
      > Sent from my iPhone
      >
      > On 21 Mar 2013, at 15:38, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
      > <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
      >
      > > I haven't gotten to the section where I need this info, but when I do,
      > how
      > > do I create a proto-language for Yardish to borrow from? Can I have
      > Yardish
      > > borrow from itself? I think we may have discussed this awhile back. I
      > took
      > a
      > > read through the lesson, but it's written as if I was taking the course
      > with
      > > colleagues. I don't need to create that language, just be able to borrow
      > > words from it, and translate them into Yardish, and tell their original
      > > form.
      >



      --
      Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
      order from Finishing Line
      Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
      and
      Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
    • Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro
      It is also possible, and very fun, to create an a priori proto-language , i.e. creating a new language and calling it the proto-language of a group of
      Message 2 of 28 , Mar 21 6:55 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        It is also possible, and very fun, to create an "a priori proto-language",
        i.e. creating a new language and calling it the proto-language of a group
        of languages and creating the evidences that would support this new conlang
        to be the proto-language of all those languages. This evidences should
        include a lot of uncommon sound changes that would only happen in a few
        words.
        Afterwards, trying to create an "a posteriori proto-language" from the
        original conlangs. This "a posteriori proto-language" will be different
        from the "a priori proto-language" and you could state that the real
        proto-language is the a priori one, but the a posteriori one is the one
        found by the scholars of your conworld.


        On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Patrick Dunn <pwdunn@...> wrote:

        > You don't *need* to have a protolanguage. A lot of us like to do that
        > because we find figuring out the sound changes to be fun, but if you think
        > it's a chore, skip it.
        >
        >
        >
        > On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
        > goldyemoran@...> wrote:
        >
        > > So, I was wong, and do need to create the language. Any name ideas?
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
        > > Behalf Of Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones
        > > Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 5:47 AM
        > > To: CONLANG@...
        > > Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language
        > >
        > > You need to devise a series of sound shifts by which Yardish derived from
        > > the proto-language, but in reverse. For example, if Yardish has /j/, you
        > > could derive it from /g/ before a front vowel, (possibly via /dzh/, which
        > > would give you an allophone of /g/; then you could posit the loss of
        > front
        > > vowels after /j/, which would result in /g/ being a different phoneme
        > from
        > > /j/. To make it more realistic, you also need to devise a phonology for
        > the
        > > proto-language from which derive the sound-changed which lead to Yardish,
        > > possibly along with lexical, morphological and syntactic differences.
        > >
        > > Jeff
        > >
        > > Sent from my iPhone
        > >
        > > On 21 Mar 2013, at 15:38, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
        > > <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > > I haven't gotten to the section where I need this info, but when I do,
        > > how
        > > > do I create a proto-language for Yardish to borrow from? Can I have
        > > Yardish
        > > > borrow from itself? I think we may have discussed this awhile back. I
        > > took
        > > a
        > > > read through the lesson, but it's written as if I was taking the course
        > > with
        > > > colleagues. I don't need to create that language, just be able to
        > borrow
        > > > words from it, and translate them into Yardish, and tell their original
        > > > form.
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
        > order from Finishing Line
        > Press<
        > http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
        > and
        > Amazon<
        > http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2
        > >.
        >
      • Daniel Burgener
        On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 1:51 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
        Message 3 of 28 , Mar 21 8:19 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 1:51 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
          goldyemoran@...> wrote:

          > I'm also thinking Yardish has kept some silknish conventions, like not
          > adding a K to its vocabulary. I did come up consonants to replace the
          > letter
          > K. Patrick, I'm curious to know why you said I didn't need to create a
          > proto-language. I did think it would be a lot of work, until I figured if
          > Yardish kept some conventions, then it wouldn't be as much work, as it
          > would, if the two languages were independent of each other. Is that even
          > possible for a proto-language not to depend on its replacement language?
          >

          You may be misunderstanding the term "proto-language". As I understand it
          (I'm not a linguist, so I hope I'm not making in mistakes here, but I think
          this is all accurate) a "proto-language" is specifically the parent of one
          or more modern languages in terms of development. If you had a language
          spoken by a people a long time ago and then they started speaking a new
          language (which would need a reason to happen, involving some kind of
          contact with the speakers of that language), then that language wouldn't be
          a proto-language.

          As an example, in America, people used to speak many different languages,
          such as Navajo etc. Then Europeans came over and conquered the continent,
          bringing English with them. As a result most people living in the US today
          speak English. Navajo isn't a proto-language for English, because English
          didn't descend from Navajo - it replaced it in a geographical sense.

          You don't need a proto-language any more than you need to design the
          culture of a country that your characters will never visit. If it's not
          going in your novel, why bother creating it? Some people like to because
          it gives more depth to their world-building, or because they enjoy the
          process. However, designing one language is a big enough task, adding in a
          proto-language means more work and as a result less time you can spend on
          the language you're actually designing.

          -Daniel
        • Alex Fink
          ... I don t think you should bother making a proto-language for this purpose, if you think it would be a hassle. Let me try to explain why *not* doing so is
          Message 4 of 28 , Mar 21 8:40 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 08:38:06 -0700, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <goldyemoran@...> wrote:

            >I haven't gotten to the section where I need this info, but when I do, how
            >do I create a proto-language for Yardish to borrow from? Can I have Yardish
            >borrow from itself? I think we may have discussed this awhile back. I took a
            >read through the lesson, but it's written as if I was taking the course with
            >colleagues. I don't need to create that language, just be able to borrow
            >words from it, and translate them into Yardish, and tell their original
            >form.

            I don't think you should bother making a proto-language for this purpose, if you think it would be a hassle. Let me try to explain why *not* doing so is perfectly realistic.

            The modern Romance languages, French and Spanish and so on, display a phenomenon where they have Latin words in them in two different ways.
            (1) French is one of the languages that Latin evolved into with the passage of time. Therefore, Latin words evolved into French words, although their sounds changed along the way. For instance, Latin AQUA 'water' turned into French "eau" 'water'; Latin
            CAPILLI 'hair(s)' turned into French "cheveux" 'hairs'.
            (2) Latin was the language of high learning across Europe during the Renaissance, and on account of this, the European languages borrowed lots of learned, scientific words from Latin. Some of these actually came from the same Latin sources as in point (1). For example, Latin AQUATICUS 'water-ish' was borrowed as French "aquatique" 'aquatic; living in water, of an organism (etc.)', and Latin CAPILLARIS 'hair-like' was borrowed as French "capillarie" 'a kind of small hair-like blood vessel'.

            But there is a coincidence in the above. The coincidence is that the language from which French took all its scientific borrowings happened to be the ancestor of French! That isn't always the way it happens. For example, in Japanese, the analogous scientific borrowings come not from Proto-Japanese, but from Chinese, which is unrelated to Japanese.

            If Yardish was like Japanese and not like French, here, then you don't have to worry about proto-languages at all to generate your borrowings. Just make up any old words and claim they're from some unrelated second language.

            Alex
          • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
            So, I was wong, and do need to create the language. Any name ideas? ... From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU] On Behalf Of
            Message 5 of 28 , Mar 21 8:51 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              So, I was wong, and do need to create the language. Any name ideas?

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
              Behalf Of Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones
              Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 5:47 AM
              To: CONLANG@...
              Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language

              You need to devise a series of sound shifts by which Yardish derived from
              the proto-language, but in reverse. For example, if Yardish has /j/, you
              could derive it from /g/ before a front vowel, (possibly via /dzh/, which
              would give you an allophone of /g/; then you could posit the loss of front
              vowels after /j/, which would result in /g/ being a different phoneme from
              /j/. To make it more realistic, you also need to devise a phonology for the
              proto-language from which derive the sound-changed which lead to Yardish,
              possibly along with lexical, morphological and syntactic differences.

              Jeff

              Sent from my iPhone

              On 21 Mar 2013, at 15:38, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
              <goldyemoran@...> wrote:

              > I haven't gotten to the section where I need this info, but when I do, how
              > do I create a proto-language for Yardish to borrow from? Can I have
              Yardish
              > borrow from itself? I think we may have discussed this awhile back. I took
              a
              > read through the lesson, but it's written as if I was taking the course
              with
              > colleagues. I don't need to create that language, just be able to borrow
              > words from it, and translate them into Yardish, and tell their original
              > form.
            • BPJ
              ... It might be a dead language which is also a culture language, like Latin in our world: nobody learns it as their first language anymore -- which is the
              Message 6 of 28 , Mar 21 9:44 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                On 2013-03-21 19:29, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
                > Hmm. So sounds like Silknish isn't a proto-language. What does that make it,
                > other than an endangered language. If Yardish borrows from it, does that
                > mean Yemora has two languages? I could have someone speak Silknish in my
                > work, maybe someone at the healing community.

                It might be a dead language which is also a culture
                language, like Latin in our world: nobody learns it as
                their first language anymore -- which is the definition
                of a dead language --, but it was once the language of
                a culturally and politically influential empire, and
                has persisted as an official and ceremonial language in
                some contexts, so that at least some people still learn
                it from books. Last but not least it is extensively
                used as a source of loanwords, especially for speaking
                fancy. Of course in our world there are some languages
                which are descended from Latin, and when those
                languages borrow from Latin they kind of borrow from
                themselves, but there are also other languages not
                descended from Latin which borrow just as much or more
                from Latin -- English I'm looking at you! ;-)

                You absolutely don't need to construct the whole
                language, just such vocabulary as you would need to
                form credible families of loanwords. Lots of people in
                our world recognise enough Latin roots and derivational
                morphology (prefixes and endings used to form new
                words) to coin new technical terms, but they can't read
                a Latin text or inflect Latin nouns or verbs if their
                life depended on it! Thus you are free to create just
                a vocabulary -- as small or extensive as you need --
                without a grammar, or with just a more or less partial
                grammar to show up in some borrowed expressions, like
                _habeas corpus_ which just happens to begin with a finite
                verb form!

                /bpj
              • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                The Yemorans live in a dragon culture, but they re insectoid humans. So I d thought of calling the proto-language silknish. I don t mind creating the silknish
                Message 7 of 28 , Mar 21 10:35 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  The Yemorans live in a dragon culture, but they're insectoid humans. So I'd
                  thought of calling the proto-language silknish. I don't mind creating the
                  silknish lexicon. I'm thinking the word ordr won't change. Does Silknish
                  need a language bore that? I have the ifo I need for Yardish's lexicon, I
                  just started re-ordering them yesterday. I won't do the phonetic
                  traqnscriptions, though. I'm thinking Silknish died out, and Yardish became
                  its replacement, so I'm guessing it would have a short lexicon.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                  Behalf Of Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro
                  Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 6:56 AM
                  To: CONLANG@...
                  Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language

                  It is also possible, and very fun, to create an "a priori proto-language",
                  i.e. creating a new language and calling it the proto-language of a group
                  of languages and creating the evidences that would support this new conlang
                  to be the proto-language of all those languages. This evidences should
                  include a lot of uncommon sound changes that would only happen in a few
                  words.
                  Afterwards, trying to create an "a posteriori proto-language" from the
                  original conlangs. This "a posteriori proto-language" will be different
                  from the "a priori proto-language" and you could state that the real
                  proto-language is the a priori one, but the a posteriori one is the one
                  found by the scholars of your conworld.


                  On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Patrick Dunn <pwdunn@...> wrote:

                  > You don't *need* to have a protolanguage. A lot of us like to do that
                  > because we find figuring out the sound changes to be fun, but if you think
                  > it's a chore, skip it.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
                  > goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > So, I was wong, and do need to create the language. Any name ideas?
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                  > > Behalf Of Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones
                  > > Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 5:47 AM
                  > > To: CONLANG@...
                  > > Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language
                  > >
                  > > You need to devise a series of sound shifts by which Yardish derived
                  from
                  > > the proto-language, but in reverse. For example, if Yardish has /j/, you
                  > > could derive it from /g/ before a front vowel, (possibly via /dzh/,
                  which
                  > > would give you an allophone of /g/; then you could posit the loss of
                  > front
                  > > vowels after /j/, which would result in /g/ being a different phoneme
                  > from
                  > > /j/. To make it more realistic, you also need to devise a phonology for
                  > the
                  > > proto-language from which derive the sound-changed which lead to
                  Yardish,
                  > > possibly along with lexical, morphological and syntactic differences.
                  > >
                  > > Jeff
                  > >
                  > > Sent from my iPhone
                  > >
                  > > On 21 Mar 2013, at 15:38, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                  > > <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > I haven't gotten to the section where I need this info, but when I do,
                  > > how
                  > > > do I create a proto-language for Yardish to borrow from? Can I have
                  > > Yardish
                  > > > borrow from itself? I think we may have discussed this awhile back. I
                  > > took
                  > > a
                  > > > read through the lesson, but it's written as if I was taking the
                  course
                  > > with
                  > > > colleagues. I don't need to create that language, just be able to
                  > borrow
                  > > > words from it, and translate them into Yardish, and tell their
                  original
                  > > > form.
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
                  > order from Finishing Line
                  > Press<
                  > http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
                  > and
                  > Amazon<
                  >
                  http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie
                  =UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2
                  > >.
                  >
                • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                  I m also thinking Yardish has kept some silknish conventions, like not adding a K to its vocabulary. I did come up consonants to replace the letter K. Patrick,
                  Message 8 of 28 , Mar 21 10:51 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I'm also thinking Yardish has kept some silknish conventions, like not
                    adding a K to its vocabulary. I did come up consonants to replace the letter
                    K. Patrick, I'm curious to know why you said I didn't need to create a
                    proto-language. I did think it would be a lot of work, until I figured if
                    Yardish kept some conventions, then it wouldn't be as much work, as it
                    would, if the two languages were independent of each other. Is that even
                    possible for a proto-language not to depend on its replacement language?
                  • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                    Hmm. So sounds like Silknish isn t a proto-language. What does that make it, other than an endangered language. If Yardish borrows from it, does that mean
                    Message 9 of 28 , Mar 21 11:29 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hmm. So sounds like Silknish isn't a proto-language. What does that make it,
                      other than an endangered language. If Yardish borrows from it, does that
                      mean Yemora has two languages? I could have someone speak Silknish in my
                      work, maybe someone at the healing community.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                      Behalf Of Daniel Burgener
                      Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:20 AM
                      To: CONLANG@...
                      Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language

                      On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 1:51 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
                      goldyemoran@...> wrote:

                      > I'm also thinking Yardish has kept some silknish conventions, like not
                      > adding a K to its vocabulary. I did come up consonants to replace the
                      > letter
                      > K. Patrick, I'm curious to know why you said I didn't need to create a
                      > proto-language. I did think it would be a lot of work, until I figured if
                      > Yardish kept some conventions, then it wouldn't be as much work, as it
                      > would, if the two languages were independent of each other. Is that even
                      > possible for a proto-language not to depend on its replacement language?
                      >

                      You may be misunderstanding the term "proto-language". As I understand it
                      (I'm not a linguist, so I hope I'm not making in mistakes here, but I think
                      this is all accurate) a "proto-language" is specifically the parent of one
                      or more modern languages in terms of development. If you had a language
                      spoken by a people a long time ago and then they started speaking a new
                      language (which would need a reason to happen, involving some kind of
                      contact with the speakers of that language), then that language wouldn't be
                      a proto-language.

                      As an example, in America, people used to speak many different languages,
                      such as Navajo etc. Then Europeans came over and conquered the continent,
                      bringing English with them. As a result most people living in the US today
                      speak English. Navajo isn't a proto-language for English, because English
                      didn't descend from Navajo - it replaced it in a geographical sense.

                      You don't need a proto-language any more than you need to design the
                      culture of a country that your characters will never visit. If it's not
                      going in your novel, why bother creating it? Some people like to because
                      it gives more depth to their world-building, or because they enjoy the
                      process. However, designing one language is a big enough task, adding in a
                      proto-language means more work and as a result less time you can spend on
                      the language you're actually designing.

                      -Daniel
                    • Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones
                      Agreed. I wasn t saying you need one, nor was I saying it should be realistic; I was simply presupposing you wanted one, and pointing out that if you wanted it
                      Message 10 of 28 , Mar 21 1:30 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Agreed. I wasn't saying you need one, nor was I saying it should be realistic; I was simply presupposing you wanted one, and pointing out that if you wanted it to be naturalistic, the more fleshed-out the better.

                        Jeff

                        Sent from my iPhone

                        On 21 Mar 2013, at 13:47, Patrick Dunn <pwdunn@...> wrote:

                        > You don't *need* to have a protolanguage. A lot of us like to do that
                        > because we find figuring out the sound changes to be fun, but if you think
                        > it's a chore, skip it.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
                        > goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >> So, I was wong, and do need to create the language. Any name ideas?
                        >>
                        >> -----Original Message-----
                        >> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                        >> Behalf Of Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones
                        >> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 5:47 AM
                        >> To: CONLANG@...
                        >> Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language
                        >>
                        >> You need to devise a series of sound shifts by which Yardish derived from
                        >> the proto-language, but in reverse. For example, if Yardish has /j/, you
                        >> could derive it from /g/ before a front vowel, (possibly via /dzh/, which
                        >> would give you an allophone of /g/; then you could posit the loss of front
                        >> vowels after /j/, which would result in /g/ being a different phoneme from
                        >> /j/. To make it more realistic, you also need to devise a phonology for the
                        >> proto-language from which derive the sound-changed which lead to Yardish,
                        >> possibly along with lexical, morphological and syntactic differences.
                        >>
                        >> Jeff
                        >>
                        >> Sent from my iPhone
                        >>
                        >> On 21 Mar 2013, at 15:38, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                        >> <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >>> I haven't gotten to the section where I need this info, but when I do,
                        >> how
                        >>> do I create a proto-language for Yardish to borrow from? Can I have
                        >> Yardish
                        >>> borrow from itself? I think we may have discussed this awhile back. I
                        >> took
                        >> a
                        >>> read through the lesson, but it's written as if I was taking the course
                        >> with
                        >>> colleagues. I don't need to create that language, just be able to borrow
                        >>> words from it, and translate them into Yardish, and tell their original
                        >>> form.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
                        > order from Finishing Line
                        > Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
                        > and
                        > Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
                      • Roger Mills
                        ... You don t *need* to have a protolanguage.  A lot of us like to do that because we find figuring out the sound changes to be fun, but if you think it s a
                        Message 11 of 28 , Mar 22 8:22 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- On Thu, 3/21/13, Patrick Dunn <pwdunn@...> wrote:
                          You don't *need* to have a protolanguage.  A lot of us like to do that
                          because we find figuring out the sound changes to be fun, but if you think
                          it's a chore, skip it.
                          ======================================

                          Ah sad but true. And if you've created a living, modern language from thin air, it's VERY HARD to devise it's proto-language, though it can be done..... Imagine, trying to get back to Proto-IE just on the basis of modern English.
                        • Jyri Lehtinen
                          2013/3/22 Roger Mills ... Well, you don t have to go many millennia back in time with your proto-language. It all depends on what you want
                          Message 12 of 28 , Mar 22 10:14 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            2013/3/22 Roger Mills <romiltz@...>

                            > --- On Thu, 3/21/13, Patrick Dunn <pwdunn@...> wrote:
                            > You don't *need* to have a protolanguage. A lot of us like to do that
                            > because we find figuring out the sound changes to be fun, but if you think
                            > it's a chore, skip it.
                            > ======================================
                            >
                            > Ah sad but true. And if you've created a living, modern language from thin
                            > air, it's VERY HARD to devise it's proto-language, though it can be
                            > done..... Imagine, trying to get back to Proto-IE just on the basis of
                            > modern English.
                            >

                            Well, you don't have to go many millennia back in time with your
                            proto-language. It all depends on what you want to do with it. Is it going
                            to function as a way to explain where the grammar of the "present" language
                            comes from or are you going to use it to derive some sister languages, or
                            maybe its an older form of the language that you see in old literature.

                            I think the hardness goes the other way around. When you have created the
                            grammar out of thin air it can be very hard to come u pwith a logical and
                            plausible history for it. But on the other hand, you can have a lot of
                            freedom explaining your word forms if you go by the way of extensive
                            simplification of the sound system (complicated words becoming simpler and
                            tidier ones).

                            -Jyri
                          • Jörg Rhiemeier
                            Hallo conlangers! ... It is difficult but doable with *one* language - but if you have created *multiple* languages, each from scratch, or by randomly altering
                            Message 13 of 28 , Mar 22 10:33 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hallo conlangers!

                              On Friday 22 March 2013 16:22:21 Roger Mills wrote:

                              > --- On Thu, 3/21/13, Patrick Dunn <pwdunn@...> wrote:
                              > You don't *need* to have a protolanguage. A lot of us like to do that
                              > because we find figuring out the sound changes to be fun, but if you think
                              > it's a chore, skip it.
                              > ======================================
                              >
                              > Ah sad but true. And if you've created a living, modern language from thin
                              > air, it's VERY HARD to devise it's proto-language, though it can be
                              > done..... Imagine, trying to get back to Proto-IE just on the basis of
                              > modern English.

                              It is difficult but doable with *one* language - but if you have
                              created *multiple* languages, each from scratch, or by randomly
                              altering the words of the first, and try to build a common proto-
                              language for these, you are screwed. It just won't work.

                              --
                              ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
                              http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
                              "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
                            • Paul Schleitwiler, FCM
                              Another approach to protolanguage is to take two or more conlangs and try to find common roots by sound or meaning shifts. Differences which cannot be
                              Message 14 of 28 , Mar 22 10:44 AM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Another approach to "protolanguage" is to take two or more conlangs and try
                                to find common roots by sound or meaning shifts. Differences which cannot
                                be reconciled could be neologisms or borrowings from elsewhere. Such
                                borrowings could also add new dimensions to your conlangs history.

                                BTW, that would be an interesting exercise to find the common ancestor of
                                conlangs from diffrent members of this group.

                                God bless you always, all ways,
                                Paul
                              • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                                I m going to use it to explain the present language s etimology. But because it s a dead language, does it still count as a proto-language, or is it a dead
                                Message 15 of 28 , Mar 22 3:02 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I'm going to use it to explain the present language's etimology. But because
                                  it's a dead language, does it still count as a proto-language, or is it a
                                  dead language period. Also, how do I account for it dieing out, since no
                                  Yemorans came into contact with Yardish, the present form of the language.

                                  Also, here's a slightly off-topic question, how far back in time should I go
                                  to get linguistic material, is 2003 to out-of-date, I'm thinking so, but am
                                  curious to know what you think. I had a book called The Power of Babel, but
                                  it was written in 2001, and I have a book called Language Endanger, I think
                                  it was written in 2003.




                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                                  Behalf Of Jyri Lehtinen
                                  Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 10:14 AM
                                  To: CONLANG@...
                                  Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language

                                  2013/3/22 Roger Mills <romiltz@...>

                                  > --- On Thu, 3/21/13, Patrick Dunn <pwdunn@...> wrote:
                                  > You don't *need* to have a protolanguage. A lot of us like to do that
                                  > because we find figuring out the sound changes to be fun, but if you think
                                  > it's a chore, skip it.
                                  > ======================================
                                  >
                                  > Ah sad but true. And if you've created a living, modern language from thin
                                  > air, it's VERY HARD to devise it's proto-language, though it can be
                                  > done..... Imagine, trying to get back to Proto-IE just on the basis of
                                  > modern English.
                                  >

                                  Well, you don't have to go many millennia back in time with your
                                  proto-language. It all depends on what you want to do with it. Is it going
                                  to function as a way to explain where the grammar of the "present" language
                                  comes from or are you going to use it to derive some sister languages, or
                                  maybe its an older form of the language that you see in old literature.

                                  I think the hardness goes the other way around. When you have created the
                                  grammar out of thin air it can be very hard to come u pwith a logical and
                                  plausible history for it. But on the other hand, you can have a lot of
                                  freedom explaining your word forms if you go by the way of extensive
                                  simplification of the sound system (complicated words becoming simpler and
                                  tidier ones).

                                  -Jyri
                                • Patrick Dunn
                                  The Power of Babel is a good, accessible, and entertaining book. I don t know the other one. You might also like Guy Deutsch s The Unfolding of Language. On
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Mar 22 6:14 PM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    The Power of Babel is a good, accessible, and entertaining book. I don't
                                    know the other one.

                                    You might also like Guy Deutsch's The Unfolding of Language.




                                    On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
                                    goldyemoran@...> wrote:

                                    > I'm going to use it to explain the present language's etimology. But
                                    > because
                                    > it's a dead language, does it still count as a proto-language, or is it a
                                    > dead language period. Also, how do I account for it dieing out, since no
                                    > Yemorans came into contact with Yardish, the present form of the language.
                                    >
                                    > Also, here's a slightly off-topic question, how far back in time should I
                                    > go
                                    > to get linguistic material, is 2003 to out-of-date, I'm thinking so, but am
                                    > curious to know what you think. I had a book called The Power of Babel, but
                                    > it was written in 2001, and I have a book called Language Endanger, I think
                                    > it was written in 2003.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                                    > Behalf Of Jyri Lehtinen
                                    > Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 10:14 AM
                                    > To: CONLANG@...
                                    > Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language
                                    >
                                    > 2013/3/22 Roger Mills <romiltz@...>
                                    >
                                    > > --- On Thu, 3/21/13, Patrick Dunn <pwdunn@...> wrote:
                                    > > You don't *need* to have a protolanguage. A lot of us like to do that
                                    > > because we find figuring out the sound changes to be fun, but if you
                                    > think
                                    > > it's a chore, skip it.
                                    > > ======================================
                                    > >
                                    > > Ah sad but true. And if you've created a living, modern language from
                                    > thin
                                    > > air, it's VERY HARD to devise it's proto-language, though it can be
                                    > > done..... Imagine, trying to get back to Proto-IE just on the basis of
                                    > > modern English.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > Well, you don't have to go many millennia back in time with your
                                    > proto-language. It all depends on what you want to do with it. Is it going
                                    > to function as a way to explain where the grammar of the "present" language
                                    > comes from or are you going to use it to derive some sister languages, or
                                    > maybe its an older form of the language that you see in old literature.
                                    >
                                    > I think the hardness goes the other way around. When you have created the
                                    > grammar out of thin air it can be very hard to come u pwith a logical and
                                    > plausible history for it. But on the other hand, you can have a lot of
                                    > freedom explaining your word forms if you go by the way of extensive
                                    > simplification of the sound system (complicated words becoming simpler and
                                    > tidier ones).
                                    >
                                    > -Jyri
                                    >



                                    --
                                    Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
                                    order from Finishing Line
                                    Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
                                    and
                                    Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
                                  • Gary Shannon
                                    ... I second that motion. I m reading Deutsch s book right now. My daughter gave it to me last weekend. --gary
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Mar 22 6:44 PM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 6:14 PM, Patrick Dunn <pwdunn@...> wrote:
                                      > The Power of Babel is a good, accessible, and entertaining book. I don't
                                      > know the other one.
                                      >
                                      > You might also like Guy Deutsch's The Unfolding of Language.
                                      >

                                      I second that motion. I'm reading Deutsch's book right now. My
                                      daughter gave it to me last weekend.

                                      --gary
                                    • DM
                                      Deutscher not only wrote The Unfolding of Language (which is excellent), but Through the Language Glass, another excellent book that deals mostly with how
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Mar 22 7:35 PM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Deutscher not only wrote The Unfolding of Language (which is excellent),
                                        but Through the Language Glass, another excellent book that deals mostly
                                        with how language affects our view of the world, if it does this at all (a
                                        rehashing of Sapir-Whorf with an alternative theory presented). The section
                                        that sticks in my mind most is the analysis of languages that use an
                                        absolute-direction system for describing spatial relationships, rather than
                                        one based on current location of the speaker. I own both of his works and
                                        recommend them to everyone on the list.
                                      • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                                        I ll look for it. ... From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU] On Behalf Of Patrick Dunn Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 6:15 PM To:
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Mar 22 9:27 PM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          I'll look for it.

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                                          Behalf Of Patrick Dunn
                                          Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 6:15 PM
                                          To: CONLANG@...
                                          Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language

                                          The Power of Babel is a good, accessible, and entertaining book. I don't
                                          know the other one.

                                          You might also like Guy Deutsch's The Unfolding of Language.




                                          On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
                                          goldyemoran@...> wrote:

                                          > I'm going to use it to explain the present language's etimology. But
                                          > because
                                          > it's a dead language, does it still count as a proto-language, or is it a
                                          > dead language period. Also, how do I account for it dieing out, since no
                                          > Yemorans came into contact with Yardish, the present form of the language.
                                          >
                                          > Also, here's a slightly off-topic question, how far back in time should I
                                          > go
                                          > to get linguistic material, is 2003 to out-of-date, I'm thinking so, but
                                          am
                                          > curious to know what you think. I had a book called The Power of Babel,
                                          but
                                          > it was written in 2001, and I have a book called Language Endanger, I
                                          think
                                          > it was written in 2003.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                                          > Behalf Of Jyri Lehtinen
                                          > Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 10:14 AM
                                          > To: CONLANG@...
                                          > Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language
                                          >
                                          > 2013/3/22 Roger Mills <romiltz@...>
                                          >
                                          > > --- On Thu, 3/21/13, Patrick Dunn <pwdunn@...> wrote:
                                          > > You don't *need* to have a protolanguage. A lot of us like to do that
                                          > > because we find figuring out the sound changes to be fun, but if you
                                          > think
                                          > > it's a chore, skip it.
                                          > > ======================================
                                          > >
                                          > > Ah sad but true. And if you've created a living, modern language from
                                          > thin
                                          > > air, it's VERY HARD to devise it's proto-language, though it can be
                                          > > done..... Imagine, trying to get back to Proto-IE just on the basis of
                                          > > modern English.
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > Well, you don't have to go many millennia back in time with your
                                          > proto-language. It all depends on what you want to do with it. Is it going
                                          > to function as a way to explain where the grammar of the "present"
                                          language
                                          > comes from or are you going to use it to derive some sister languages, or
                                          > maybe its an older form of the language that you see in old literature.
                                          >
                                          > I think the hardness goes the other way around. When you have created the
                                          > grammar out of thin air it can be very hard to come u pwith a logical and
                                          > plausible history for it. But on the other hand, you can have a lot of
                                          > freedom explaining your word forms if you go by the way of extensive
                                          > simplification of the sound system (complicated words becoming simpler and
                                          > tidier ones).
                                          >
                                          > -Jyri
                                          >



                                          --
                                          Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
                                          order from Finishing Line
                                          Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
                                          and
                                          Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr
                                          _1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
                                        • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                                          I just found a whole bunch of questionnaires from The Department of Linguistics. I figure us conlangers are ikind of field linguistics. ... From: Constructed
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Mar 22 9:28 PM
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I just found a whole bunch of questionnaires from The Department of
                                            Linguistics. I figure us conlangers are ikind of field linguistics.


                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                                            Behalf Of Patrick Dunn
                                            Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 6:15 PM
                                            To: CONLANG@...
                                            Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language

                                            The Power of Babel is a good, accessible, and entertaining book. I don't
                                            know the other one.

                                            You might also like Guy Deutsch's The Unfolding of Language.




                                            On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
                                            goldyemoran@...> wrote:

                                            > I'm going to use it to explain the present language's etimology. But
                                            > because
                                            > it's a dead language, does it still count as a proto-language, or is it a
                                            > dead language period. Also, how do I account for it dieing out, since no
                                            > Yemorans came into contact with Yardish, the present form of the language.
                                            >
                                            > Also, here's a slightly off-topic question, how far back in time should I
                                            > go
                                            > to get linguistic material, is 2003 to out-of-date, I'm thinking so, but
                                            am
                                            > curious to know what you think. I had a book called The Power of Babel,
                                            but
                                            > it was written in 2001, and I have a book called Language Endanger, I
                                            think
                                            > it was written in 2003.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                                            > Behalf Of Jyri Lehtinen
                                            > Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 10:14 AM
                                            > To: CONLANG@...
                                            > Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language
                                            >
                                            > 2013/3/22 Roger Mills <romiltz@...>
                                            >
                                            > > --- On Thu, 3/21/13, Patrick Dunn <pwdunn@...> wrote:
                                            > > You don't *need* to have a protolanguage. A lot of us like to do that
                                            > > because we find figuring out the sound changes to be fun, but if you
                                            > think
                                            > > it's a chore, skip it.
                                            > > ======================================
                                            > >
                                            > > Ah sad but true. And if you've created a living, modern language from
                                            > thin
                                            > > air, it's VERY HARD to devise it's proto-language, though it can be
                                            > > done..... Imagine, trying to get back to Proto-IE just on the basis of
                                            > > modern English.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > Well, you don't have to go many millennia back in time with your
                                            > proto-language. It all depends on what you want to do with it. Is it going
                                            > to function as a way to explain where the grammar of the "present"
                                            language
                                            > comes from or are you going to use it to derive some sister languages, or
                                            > maybe its an older form of the language that you see in old literature.
                                            >
                                            > I think the hardness goes the other way around. When you have created the
                                            > grammar out of thin air it can be very hard to come u pwith a logical and
                                            > plausible history for it. But on the other hand, you can have a lot of
                                            > freedom explaining your word forms if you go by the way of extensive
                                            > simplification of the sound system (complicated words becoming simpler and
                                            > tidier ones).
                                            >
                                            > -Jyri
                                            >



                                            --
                                            Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
                                            order from Finishing Line
                                            Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
                                            and
                                            Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr
                                            _1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
                                          • Garth Wallace
                                            On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 12:15 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews ... Speaking of braille, you might find this link handy:
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Mar 22 10:48 PM
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 12:15 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                                              <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                                              > I'll look for that as well. I'll try audio first, and Braille as a last
                                              > resort.


                                              Speaking of braille, you might find this link handy:
                                              http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~reng/BrlIPA.html

                                              It's about IPA Braille in particular, and IPA accessibility in
                                              general. I can't personally vouch for it, but it seems promising.
                                            • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                                              I ll look for that as well. I ll try audio first, and Braille as a last resort. ... From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU] On
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Mar 23 12:15 AM
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                I'll look for that as well. I'll try audio first, and Braille as a last
                                                resort.

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                                                Behalf Of DM
                                                Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 7:36 PM
                                                To: CONLANG@...
                                                Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language

                                                Deutscher not only wrote The Unfolding of Language (which is excellent),
                                                but Through the Language Glass, another excellent book that deals mostly
                                                with how language affects our view of the world, if it does this at all (a
                                                rehashing of Sapir-Whorf with an alternative theory presented). The section
                                                that sticks in my mind most is the analysis of languages that use an
                                                absolute-direction system for describing spatial relationships, rather than
                                                one based on current location of the speaker. I own both of his works and
                                                recommend them to everyone on the list.
                                              • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                                                Thanks. Didn t even know we had IPa Braille. ... From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU] On Behalf Of Garth Wallace Sent: Friday,
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Mar 23 8:55 AM
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Thanks. Didn't even know we had IPa Braille.

                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                                                  Behalf Of Garth Wallace
                                                  Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 10:49 PM
                                                  To: CONLANG@...
                                                  Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language

                                                  On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 12:15 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                                                  <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                                                  > I'll look for that as well. I'll try audio first, and Braille as a last
                                                  > resort.


                                                  Speaking of braille, you might find this link handy:
                                                  http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~reng/BrlIPA.html

                                                  It's about IPA Braille in particular, and IPA accessibility in
                                                  general. I can't personally vouch for it, but it seems promising.
                                                • BPJ
                                                  ... A terribly heretical thought: Provided that your ordinary Braille system has a notation for such computerish symbols as @ (commercial at), & (ampersand)
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Mar 24 2:16 AM
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    On 2013-03-23 16:55, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
                                                    > Thanks. Didn't even know we had IPa Braille.

                                                    A terribly heretical thought:

                                                    Provided that your ordinary Braille system has a
                                                    notation for such 'computerish' symbols as @
                                                    (commercial at), & (ampersand) and \ (backslash) you
                                                    may be better served by a straight transliteration of
                                                    CXS (Conlang X-SAMPA) into your ordinary Braille system
                                                    since you then can use the 'same system' for writing
                                                    IPA in Braille and when communicating with other
                                                    conlangers.

                                                    CXS is the system for transliterating IPA into ASCII
                                                    which we used extensively on this mailing list before
                                                    we could use Unicode, and still occasionally use e.g.
                                                    when writing on a smartphone where it is hard to enter
                                                    Unicode IPA. CXS is described at
                                                    <http://www.theiling.de/ipa/>. (Look at
                                                    <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII> if you don't know
                                                    what ASCII is!)

                                                    I hope all the tables on that CXS page are accessible
                                                    to you. It has tables where each symbol is shown with
                                                    the CXS symbol in the top row and the IPA symbol in the
                                                    bottom row of a one-column, two-row table inside a cell
                                                    of another table, which makes everything very clear for
                                                    a sighted person but probably less so with a
                                                    screenreader, I'm afraid.

                                                    For the purpose of checking the accessibility of
                                                    webpages I write myself I installed have a screen
                                                    reader 'emulator' which gives a print approximation of
                                                    how a screenreader would render a page, and it does not
                                                    make the CXS page look promising!

                                                    If you like I can write up, or rather have the computer
                                                    write up, a list of all CXS symbols and their
                                                    corresponding Unicode characters along with their
                                                    Unicode character names and their phonetic description.
                                                    It's not something I will have time to do right away
                                                    but I have anyway planned to do something like that for
                                                    a computer program I've been meaning to write.

                                                    Ideally a screenreader would say "voiceless
                                                    palatoalveolar fricative" when it sees an ʃ, or even
                                                    synthesize the sound from the Unicode symbol, but I
                                                    don't know if that could be set up. As you have
                                                    probably seen the IPA Braille page Garth linked to has
                                                    links to instructions for setting up screenreaders to
                                                    handle Unicode IPA.

                                                    In case you wonder I care about accessibility
                                                    because I have cerebral palsy myself and one of my
                                                    friends is color blind. That has heightened my
                                                    awareness. I guess a lot of modern webpages are
                                                    terrible from a screenreader point of view. They
                                                    certainly are when it comes to navigate with the
                                                    keyboard rather than a mouse!

                                                    Regards,

                                                    /bpj

                                                    >
                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                                                    > Behalf Of Garth Wallace
                                                    > Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 10:49 PM
                                                    > To: CONLANG@...
                                                    > Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language
                                                    >
                                                    > On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 12:15 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                                                    > <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                                                    >> I'll look for that as well. I'll try audio first, and Braille as a last
                                                    >> resort.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Speaking of braille, you might find this link handy:
                                                    > http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~reng/BrlIPA.html
                                                    >
                                                    > It's about IPA Braille in particular, and IPA accessibility in
                                                    > general. I can't personally vouch for it, but it seems promising.
                                                    >
                                                  • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                                                    Yes, terrible accessibility. I figured there was some connection. I know someone cerebral palsy talso. She s an online girl I went to school with. Please send
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Mar 24 10:35 AM
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Yes, terrible accessibility. I figured there was some connection. I know someone cerebral palsy talso. She's an online girl I went to school with. Please send me the file with phonetic descriptions, thanks. I have some webpages as favorites that are an IPa reference chart and a Sappa reference chart that mentions voiceless etc. Not sure if that shows up in print. This lady Sheri Wells's guide she wrote, links to it.

                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On Behalf Of BPJ
                                                      Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 2:16 AM
                                                      To: CONLANG@...
                                                      Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language

                                                      On 2013-03-23 16:55, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
                                                      > Thanks. Didn't even know we had IPa Braille.

                                                      A terribly heretical thought:

                                                      Provided that your ordinary Braille system has a
                                                      notation for such 'computerish' symbols as @
                                                      (commercial at), & (ampersand) and \ (backslash) you
                                                      may be better served by a straight transliteration of
                                                      CXS (Conlang X-SAMPA) into your ordinary Braille system
                                                      since you then can use the 'same system' for writing
                                                      IPA in Braille and when communicating with other
                                                      conlangers.

                                                      CXS is the system for transliterating IPA into ASCII
                                                      which we used extensively on this mailing list before
                                                      we could use Unicode, and still occasionally use e.g.
                                                      when writing on a smartphone where it is hard to enter
                                                      Unicode IPA. CXS is described at
                                                      <http://www.theiling.de/ipa/>. (Look at
                                                      <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII> if you don't know
                                                      what ASCII is!)

                                                      I hope all the tables on that CXS page are accessible
                                                      to you. It has tables where each symbol is shown with
                                                      the CXS symbol in the top row and the IPA symbol in the
                                                      bottom row of a one-column, two-row table inside a cell
                                                      of another table, which makes everything very clear for
                                                      a sighted person but probably less so with a
                                                      screenreader, I'm afraid.

                                                      For the purpose of checking the accessibility of
                                                      webpages I write myself I installed have a screen
                                                      reader 'emulator' which gives a print approximation of
                                                      how a screenreader would render a page, and it does not
                                                      make the CXS page look promising!

                                                      If you like I can write up, or rather have the computer
                                                      write up, a list of all CXS symbols and their
                                                      corresponding Unicode characters along with their
                                                      Unicode character names and their phonetic description.
                                                      It's not something I will have time to do right away
                                                      but I have anyway planned to do something like that for
                                                      a computer program I've been meaning to write.

                                                      Ideally a screenreader would say "voiceless
                                                      palatoalveolar fricative" when it sees an ʃ, or even
                                                      synthesize the sound from the Unicode symbol, but I
                                                      don't know if that could be set up. As you have
                                                      probably seen the IPA Braille page Garth linked to has
                                                      links to instructions for setting up screenreaders to
                                                      handle Unicode IPA.

                                                      In case you wonder I care about accessibility
                                                      because I have cerebral palsy myself and one of my
                                                      friends is color blind. That has heightened my
                                                      awareness. I guess a lot of modern webpages are
                                                      terrible from a screenreader point of view. They
                                                      certainly are when it comes to navigate with the
                                                      keyboard rather than a mouse!

                                                      Regards,

                                                      /bpj

                                                      >
                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                      > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                                                      > Behalf Of Garth Wallace
                                                      > Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 10:49 PM
                                                      > To: CONLANG@...
                                                      > Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language
                                                      >
                                                      > On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 12:15 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                                                      > <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                                                      >> I'll look for that as well. I'll try audio first, and Braille as a last
                                                      >> resort.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Speaking of braille, you might find this link handy:
                                                      > http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~reng/BrlIPA.html
                                                      >
                                                      > It's about IPA Braille in particular, and IPA accessibility in
                                                      > general. I can't personally vouch for it, but it seems promising.
                                                      >
                                                    • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                                                      Thanks for the help. ... From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU] On Behalf Of BPJ Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 2:16 AM To:
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Mar 24 10:35 AM
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Thanks for the help.

                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On Behalf Of BPJ
                                                        Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 2:16 AM
                                                        To: CONLANG@...
                                                        Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language

                                                        On 2013-03-23 16:55, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
                                                        > Thanks. Didn't even know we had IPa Braille.

                                                        A terribly heretical thought:

                                                        Provided that your ordinary Braille system has a
                                                        notation for such 'computerish' symbols as @
                                                        (commercial at), & (ampersand) and \ (backslash) you
                                                        may be better served by a straight transliteration of
                                                        CXS (Conlang X-SAMPA) into your ordinary Braille system
                                                        since you then can use the 'same system' for writing
                                                        IPA in Braille and when communicating with other
                                                        conlangers.

                                                        CXS is the system for transliterating IPA into ASCII
                                                        which we used extensively on this mailing list before
                                                        we could use Unicode, and still occasionally use e.g.
                                                        when writing on a smartphone where it is hard to enter
                                                        Unicode IPA. CXS is described at
                                                        <http://www.theiling.de/ipa/>. (Look at
                                                        <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII> if you don't know
                                                        what ASCII is!)

                                                        I hope all the tables on that CXS page are accessible
                                                        to you. It has tables where each symbol is shown with
                                                        the CXS symbol in the top row and the IPA symbol in the
                                                        bottom row of a one-column, two-row table inside a cell
                                                        of another table, which makes everything very clear for
                                                        a sighted person but probably less so with a
                                                        screenreader, I'm afraid.

                                                        For the purpose of checking the accessibility of
                                                        webpages I write myself I installed have a screen
                                                        reader 'emulator' which gives a print approximation of
                                                        how a screenreader would render a page, and it does not
                                                        make the CXS page look promising!

                                                        If you like I can write up, or rather have the computer
                                                        write up, a list of all CXS symbols and their
                                                        corresponding Unicode characters along with their
                                                        Unicode character names and their phonetic description.
                                                        It's not something I will have time to do right away
                                                        but I have anyway planned to do something like that for
                                                        a computer program I've been meaning to write.

                                                        Ideally a screenreader would say "voiceless
                                                        palatoalveolar fricative" when it sees an ʃ, or even
                                                        synthesize the sound from the Unicode symbol, but I
                                                        don't know if that could be set up. As you have
                                                        probably seen the IPA Braille page Garth linked to has
                                                        links to instructions for setting up screenreaders to
                                                        handle Unicode IPA.

                                                        In case you wonder I care about accessibility
                                                        because I have cerebral palsy myself and one of my
                                                        friends is color blind. That has heightened my
                                                        awareness. I guess a lot of modern webpages are
                                                        terrible from a screenreader point of view. They
                                                        certainly are when it comes to navigate with the
                                                        keyboard rather than a mouse!

                                                        Regards,

                                                        /bpj

                                                        >
                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                        > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                                                        > Behalf Of Garth Wallace
                                                        > Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 10:49 PM
                                                        > To: CONLANG@...
                                                        > Subject: Re: Creating a Proto-language
                                                        >
                                                        > On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 12:15 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                                                        > <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                                                        >> I'll look for that as well. I'll try audio first, and Braille as a last
                                                        >> resort.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Speaking of braille, you might find this link handy:
                                                        > http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~reng/BrlIPA.html
                                                        >
                                                        > It's about IPA Braille in particular, and IPA accessibility in
                                                        > general. I can't personally vouch for it, but it seems promising.
                                                        >
                                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.