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Re: What psychological effect does word order have in languages?

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  • Matthew A. Gurevitch
    Dear Conlang-L, According to what I know of Latin, in summā cum laude, the cum is a preposition that introduces an ablative of manner. With some
    Message 1 of 29 , Feb 24, 2013
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      Dear Conlang-L,

      According to what I know of Latin, in "summā cum laude," the "cum" is a preposition that introduces an "ablative of manner." With some prepositions, especially in more poetic texts, adjectives precede the preposition that introduces its related noun for stylistic reasons.

      I have no experience with trees, so I cannot comment on that.

      All my best,
      Matthew Gurevitch



      -----Original Message-----
      From: Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro <hcesarcastro@...>
      To: CONLANG <CONLANG@...>
      Sent: Sat, Feb 23, 2013 4:45 pm
      Subject: Re: What psychological effect does word order have in languages?


      On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro
      <hcesarcastro@...> wrote:
      > This thread reminds me of a Latin sentence structure I cannot understand.
      >
      > I usually see adpositions coming either before the phrase it modifies
      > (preposition) or after it (postposition).
      >
      > Can someone explain me what is the role of the word "cum" in "SVMMA CVM
      > LAVDE"?
      > "Summa laude" is a noun phrase in the ablative case. Is "cum" a preposition?
      > Or a postposition?


      A further question: Can someone show me the syntactic tree structure
      of this sentence?
    • Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones
      Sent from my iPhone ... Sorry, but that s neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition, even of it were true. In Turkish, the said word order would be
      Message 2 of 29 , Feb 24, 2013
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        Sent from my iPhone

        On 21 Feb 2013, at 15:28, Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:

        > --- On Wed, 2/20/13, Matthew Boutilier <bvticvlarivs@...> wrote:
        > But *"Once dreary a midnight upon" would have been an impossible choice for
        > Poe (unless he were writing in Turkish, incidentally).
        >
        > Where do you draw the line between poetically grammatical and totally
        > ungrammatical?
        > ============================================
        > When you break up constituents (as your example breaks up a prep.phrase.)

        Sorry, but that's neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition, even of it were true. In Turkish, the said word order would be acceptable (a) because Turkish uses prepositions and (b) the numeral "bir" means "one" if it is placed before any adjectives, but "a(n)" if it is the last constituent before the noun. Furthermore, many Australian languages are non-configurational, (meaning that the elements of a constituent need not be contiguous), and Latin and Ancient Greek approach non-configurationality in poetry.

        Jeff
      • Roger Mills
        ... Sorry, but that s neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition, RM it is in English. I d imagine Turkish and Australian languages have their own rules to
        Message 3 of 29 , Feb 24, 2013
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          --- On Sun, 2/24/13, Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones <jeff.rollin@...> wrote:
          On 21 Feb 2013, at 15:28, Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:

          > --- On Wed, 2/20/13, Matthew Boutilier <bvticvlarivs@...> wrote:
          > But *"Once dreary a midnight upon" would have been an impossible choice for
          > Poe (unless he were writing in Turkish, incidentally).
          >
          > Where do you draw the line between poetically grammatical and totally
          > ungrammatical?
          > ============================================
          > When you break up constituents (as your example breaks up a prep.phrase.)

          Sorry, but that's neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition,

          RM it is in English. I'd imagine Turkish and Australian languages have their own rules to determine ungrammaticality.

          even of it were true. In Turkish, the said word order would be acceptable (a) because Turkish uses prepositions and (b) the numeral "bir" means "one" if it is placed before any adjectives, but "a(n)" if it is the last constituent before the noun. Furthermore, many Australian languages are non-configurational, (meaning that the elements of a constituent need not be contiguous), and Latin and Ancient Greek approach non-configurationality in poetry.

          Jeff
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