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Re: vowels: five to three?

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  • Jörg Rhiemeier
    Hallo conlangers! ... That would be a lostlang idea. A romlang with only three vowel qualities! -- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 31, 2013
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      Hallo conlangers!

      On Wednesday 30 January 2013 18:35:00 BPJ wrote:

      > Sicilian comes close with
      >
      > ī ĭ ē > i
      > ū ŭ ō > u
      > ā ă > a
      >
      > Had only ĕ ŏ merged with a it would have been a done deal.

      That would be a lostlang idea. A romlang with only three vowel
      qualities!

      --
      ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
      http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
      "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
    • BPJ
      Now don t you go and give me any crazy ideas, you hear me! ;-)
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 1, 2013
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        Now don't you go and give me any crazy ideas, you hear me! ;-)

        Den torsdagen den 31:e januari 2013 skrev Jörg Rhiemeier:

        > Hallo conlangers!
        >
        > On Wednesday 30 January 2013 18:35:00 BPJ wrote:
        >
        > > Sicilian comes close with
        > >
        > > ī ĭ ē > i
        > > ū ŭ ō > u
        > > ā ă > a
        > >
        > > Had only ĕ ŏ merged with a it would have been a done deal.
        >
        > That would be a lostlang idea. A romlang with only three vowel
        > qualities!
        >
        > --
        > ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
        > http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
        > "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
        >
      • Iuhan Culmærija
        2013/1/31 Jörg Rhiemeier ... Syrunian is half-way there with four vowels: i, e, u and a, and [i] and [e~ɛ] are in the process of
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 2, 2013
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          2013/1/31 Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...>

          > Hallo conlangers!
          >
          > On Wednesday 30 January 2013 18:35:00 BPJ wrote:
          >
          > > Sicilian comes close with
          > >
          > > ī ĭ ē > i
          > > ū ŭ ō > u
          > > ā ă > a
          > >
          > > Had only ĕ ŏ merged with a it would have been a done deal.
          >
          > That would be a lostlang idea. A romlang with only three vowel
          > qualities!
          >
          >
          Syrunian is half-way there with four vowels: i, e, u and a, and [i] and
          [e~ɛ] are in the process of falling together already.

          Pure [e] only exists in the Construct State (from the Latin genitive) for
          nouns, where it inflects with this pattern: Root_vowel—Ø—e
          Adjectives in the construct state, however, use [i] not [e]: V—Ø—i.
          In unstressed positions, [e~ə] is almost silent (like modern Hebrew's
          shva-vowel), but still triggers spirantisation of plosives.
          Stressed [e~ɛ] exists together with Ayin, as either [eʕ] or [eʔ]. these are
          allophonic to [aʔ].

          I should also note that Syrunian is struggling to survive the spread of
          Arabic in the Near East. Arabic is the main reason for the instability of
          vowels in the language.

          paħm'Ellah tecum,
          Iuhan


          > --
          > ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
          > http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
          > "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
          >
        • Anthony Miles
          If you were to do this, might I suggest contact with a group of Arabic or Berber speakers - pre-Norman Sicily is an excellent starting point.
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 6, 2013
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            If you were to do this, might I suggest contact with a group of Arabic or Berber speakers - pre-Norman Sicily is an excellent starting point.
          • Leonardo Castro
            Au, saule miu! Ma n’atu saule cchiù bellu, ai ne’ ’au saule miu sta nfraunte a ti!’ au saule ’au saule miu sta nfraunte a ti, sta nfraunte a ti! ...
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 7, 2013
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              Au, saule miu!

              Ma n’atu saule
              cchiù bellu, ai ne’
              ’au saule miu
              sta nfraunte a ti!’
              au saule
              ’au saule miu
              sta nfraunte a ti,
              sta nfraunte a ti!

              ---

              Mairica-Mairica

              Mairica, Mairica, Mairica,
              caussa saràlu 'sta Mairica?
              Mairica, Mairica, Mairica,
              un bail mazzulinu di fiaur.

              ----

              Até mais!

              Leonardo


              2013/2/1 BPJ <bpj@...>:
              > Now don't you go and give me any crazy ideas, you hear me! ;-)
              >
              > Den torsdagen den 31:e januari 2013 skrev Jörg Rhiemeier:
              >
              >> Hallo conlangers!
              >>
              >> On Wednesday 30 January 2013 18:35:00 BPJ wrote:
              >>
              >> > Sicilian comes close with
              >> >
              >> > ī ĭ ē > i
              >> > ū ŭ ō > u
              >> > ā ă > a
              >> >
              >> > Had only ĕ ŏ merged with a it would have been a done deal.
              >>
              >> That would be a lostlang idea. A romlang with only three vowel
              >> qualities!
              >>
              >> --
              >> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
              >> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
              >> "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
              >>
            • BPJ
              ... I actually thought of that after Jörg s comment: Sicilian had no diphthongization so that the product of the merger of Latin _ĭ_ and _ē_ into /e/ just
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 7, 2013
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                On 2013-02-07 12:36, Leonardo Castro wrote:
                > Au, saule miu!
                >
                > Ma n’atu saule
                > cchiù bellu, ai ne’
                > ’au saule miu
                > sta nfraunte a ti!’
                > au saule
                > ’au saule miu
                > sta nfraunte a ti,
                > sta nfraunte a ti!
                >
                > ---
                >
                > Mairica-Mairica
                >
                > Mairica, Mairica, Mairica,
                > caussa saràlu 'sta Mairica?
                > Mairica, Mairica, Mairica,
                > un bail mazzulinu di fiaur.


                I actually thought of that after Jörg's comment:

                Sicilian had no diphthongization so that the product of
                the merger of Latin _ĭ_ and _ē_ into /e/ just merged
                with /i/ from _ī_, and stressed _ĕ_ just remained /ɛ/,
                while unstressed _ĕ_ actually became /i/, and the
                development of the back vowels was parallel. So I
                imagined a language where stressed _ĕ_ and _ŏ_ also
                just became /a/ so that you would have:

                | rēge > ri(g)i
                | pĕde > pedi > padi
                | vōtu > vutu
                | fŏcu > focu > facu

                Now in a great part of Romance /ɛ/ and /ɔ/ diphthongize
                either in open syllables or everywhere, or just under
                certain conditions and in smaller parts /e/ and/or /o/
                as well diphthongize in open syllables and/or under
                other conditions so you may get results like

                | rēge > rei(g)e > rai
                | > roi > roe > rua
                | pĕde > pie(d)e > pia(de)
                | vōtu > voutu > vut / vaut
                | > voatu > vuatu
                | fŏcu > fuocu > fue- / fua-

                I guess _roi_ could also have gone to /rui/ and then
                on to /ruɛ/ > /rua/ but the fact is that results such
                as /oi/, /o/, /(o)ɛ/ are attested but /ui/ is
                attested nowhere.

                So one would have to decide *when* and *where* this
                language arose and get different *how*s depending. You
                would also have to decide when this happened relative
                to palatalization, and if one also adopted the (quite
                unrealistic) idea that unstressed _ĕ, ŏ_ became /a/
                before stressed vowels, relative to loss of final /u/
                and /e/ if that occurred. You could get several
                interesting languages on the proposition of "a Romlang
                with only three vowel qualities"!

                /bpj

                >
                > 2013/2/1 BPJ <bpj@...>:
                >> Now don't you go and give me any crazy ideas, you hear me! ;-)
                >>
                >> Den torsdagen den 31:e januari 2013 skrev Jörg Rhiemeier:
                >>
                >>> Hallo conlangers!
                >>>
                >>> On Wednesday 30 January 2013 18:35:00 BPJ wrote:
                >>>
                >>>> Sicilian comes close with
                >>>>
                >>>> ī ĭ ē > i
                >>>> ū ŭ ō > u
                >>>> ā ă > a
                >>>>
                >>>> Had only ĕ ŏ merged with a it would have been a done deal.
                >>>
                >>> That would be a lostlang idea. A romlang with only three vowel
                >>> qualities!
                >>>
                >>> --
                >>> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
                >>> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
                >>> "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
                >>>
                >
              • Jörg Rhiemeier
                Hallo conlangers! ... Yes. The original idea of yours (and mine). ... Sure. There are many ways of getting a plausible romlang with only three vowel
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 7, 2013
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                  Hallo conlangers!

                  On Thursday 07 February 2013 15:22:17 BPJ wrote:

                  > [...]
                  > I actually thought of that after Jörg's comment:
                  >
                  > Sicilian had no diphthongization so that the product of
                  > the merger of Latin _ĭ_ and _ē_ into /e/ just merged
                  > with /i/ from _ī_, and stressed _ĕ_ just remained /ɛ/,
                  > while unstressed _ĕ_ actually became /i/, and the
                  > development of the back vowels was parallel. So I
                  > imagined a language where stressed _ĕ_ and _ŏ_ also
                  > just became /a/ so that you would have:
                  > | rēge > ri(g)i
                  > | pĕde > pedi > padi
                  > | vōtu > vutu
                  > | fŏcu > focu > facu

                  Yes. The original idea of yours (and mine).

                  > Now in a great part of Romance /ɛ/ and /ɔ/ diphthongize
                  > either in open syllables or everywhere, or just under
                  > certain conditions and in smaller parts /e/ and/or /o/
                  > as well diphthongize in open syllables and/or under
                  > other conditions so you may get results like
                  >
                  > | rēge > rei(g)e > rai
                  > |
                  > | > roi > roe > rua
                  > |
                  > | pĕde > pie(d)e > pia(de)
                  > | vōtu > voutu > vut / vaut
                  > |
                  > | > voatu > vuatu
                  > |
                  > | fŏcu > fuocu > fue- / fua-
                  >
                  > I guess _roi_ could also have gone to /rui/ and then
                  > on to /ruɛ/ > /rua/ but the fact is that results such
                  > as /oi/, /o/, /(o)ɛ/ are attested but /ui/ is
                  > attested nowhere.
                  >
                  > So one would have to decide *when* and *where* this
                  > language arose and get different *how*s depending. You
                  > would also have to decide when this happened relative
                  > to palatalization, and if one also adopted the (quite
                  > unrealistic) idea that unstressed _ĕ, ŏ_ became /a/
                  > before stressed vowels, relative to loss of final /u/
                  > and /e/ if that occurred. You could get several
                  > interesting languages on the proposition of "a Romlang
                  > with only three vowel qualities"!

                  Sure. There are many ways of getting a plausible romlang
                  with only three vowel qualities. Alas, I currently do not
                  feel like starting a romlang. I still have enough to do with
                  Old Albic, Proto-Alpianic (a protolang for the League of Lost
                  Languages) and even with Roman Germanech which is pretty much
                  "done" but no complete grammar sketch or dictionary currently
                  online! Also, I have other, non-conlang projects such as
                  writing a book about progressive rock music and writing and
                  rehearsing songs for a band I hope to start later this year,
                  and a few other things.

                  --
                  ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
                  http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
                  "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
                • BPJ
                  Bábilstuarn Allir jarðarbúar tiuluðu siumu tungu ug nútuðu siumu úrð. Svau bár viað ír hair fluttust að uistan að hair fundu laugsliattu í
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 7, 2013
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                    Bábilstuarn

                    Allir jarðarbúar tiuluðu siumu tungu ug nútuðu siumu
                    úrð. Svau bár viað ír hair fluttust að uistan að hair
                    fundu laugsliattu í Síníarlandi ug sittust hár að. Hau
                    sugðu hair wír viað annan: "Kumum nú ug búum tial
                    tígulstaina ug brinnum hau í ildi." Hair nútuðu
                    tígulstaina í stáð grjuats ug biak í stáð stainlíms. Og
                    hair sugðu: "Kumum nú, biggjum ukkr burg ug tuarn sim
                    naui tial hiamins. Hár míð virðum viað frágir in
                    tvístrumst ikki um alla jurðina." Hau staig Druttinn
                    niaðr tial hiss að sjau burgina ug tuarninn sim minnirnir
                    huvðu biggt. Og Druttinn ságði: "Nú íru hair ain hjuað
                    ug tála siumu tungu. Hitta ír aðains uppháf hiss sim
                    hair muanu táka siar fiarir hindr. Hiar iftir muan ikkirt
                    virða haim um mign sim hair átla siar. Stígum nú niaðr
                    ug ruglum tungumaul hairra svau að inginn skilji annars
                    maul." Og Druttinn tvístraði haim háðan um alla
                    jurðina ug hair háttu viað að biggja burgina. Av haim
                    siukum haitir hún Bábil að hár ruglaði Druttinn
                    tungumaul allrar jarðarinnar ug háðan tvístraði hann
                    haim um alla jurðina.

                    -----------------------------------------------------------

                    A collection of the more extreme developments observed
                    in outlying Scandinavian dialects applied to create a
                    trivocalic language. Can anyone with a knowledge of
                    Scandinavian/Norse spot the twists? There are no
                    grammatical changes For convenience I started from a
                    modern Icelandic text with the most glaring
                    innovations removed.

                    /bpj

                    On 2013-02-07 12:36, Leonardo Castro wrote:
                    > Au, saule miu!
                    >
                    > Ma n’atu saule
                    > cchiù bellu, ai ne’
                    > ’au saule miu
                    > sta nfraunte a ti!’
                    > au saule
                    > ’au saule miu
                    > sta nfraunte a ti,
                    > sta nfraunte a ti!
                    >
                    > ---
                    >
                    > Mairica-Mairica
                    >
                    > Mairica, Mairica, Mairica,
                    > caussa saràlu 'sta Mairica?
                    > Mairica, Mairica, Mairica,
                    > un bail mazzulinu di fiaur.
                    >
                    > ----
                    >
                    > Até mais!
                    >
                    > Leonardo
                    >
                    >
                    > 2013/2/1 BPJ <bpj@...>:
                    >> Now don't you go and give me any crazy ideas, you hear me! ;-)
                    >>
                    >> Den torsdagen den 31:e januari 2013 skrev Jörg Rhiemeier:
                    >>
                    >>> Hallo conlangers!
                    >>>
                    >>> On Wednesday 30 January 2013 18:35:00 BPJ wrote:
                    >>>
                    >>>> Sicilian comes close with
                    >>>>
                    >>>> ī ĭ ē > i
                    >>>> ū ŭ ō > u
                    >>>> ā ă > a
                    >>>>
                    >>>> Had only ĕ ŏ merged with a it would have been a done deal.
                    >>>
                    >>> That would be a lostlang idea. A romlang with only three vowel
                    >>> qualities!
                    >>>
                    >>> --
                    >>> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
                    >>> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
                    >>> "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
                    >>>
                    >
                  • Jörg Rhiemeier
                    Hallo conlangers! ... Wow! A plausible-looking North Germanic language with just three vowel qualities! This could be a nice lostlang, perhaps spoken
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 8, 2013
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                      Hallo conlangers!

                      On Thursday 07 February 2013 17:33:11 BPJ wrote:

                      > Bábilstuarn
                      >
                      > Allir jarðarbúar tiuluðu siumu tungu ug nútuðu siumu
                      > úrð. Svau bár viað ír hair fluttust að uistan að hair
                      > fundu laugsliattu í Síníarlandi ug sittust hár að. Hau
                      > sugðu hair wír viað annan: "Kumum nú ug búum tial
                      > tígulstaina ug brinnum hau í ildi." Hair nútuðu
                      > tígulstaina í stáð grjuats ug biak í stáð stainlíms. Og
                      > hair sugðu: "Kumum nú, biggjum ukkr burg ug tuarn sim
                      > naui tial hiamins. Hár míð virðum viað frágir in
                      > tvístrumst ikki um alla jurðina." Hau staig Druttinn
                      > niaðr tial hiss að sjau burgina ug tuarninn sim minnirnir
                      > huvðu biggt. Og Druttinn ságði: "Nú íru hair ain hjuað
                      > ug tála siumu tungu. Hitta ír aðains uppháf hiss sim
                      > hair muanu táka siar fiarir hindr. Hiar iftir muan ikkirt
                      > virða haim um mign sim hair átla siar. Stígum nú niaðr
                      > ug ruglum tungumaul hairra svau að inginn skilji annars
                      > maul." Og Druttinn tvístraði haim háðan um alla
                      > jurðina ug hair háttu viað að biggja burgina. Av haim
                      > siukum haitir hún Bábil að hár ruglaði Druttinn
                      > tungumaul allrar jarðarinnar ug háðan tvístraði hann
                      > haim um alla jurðina.
                      >
                      > -----------------------------------------------------------
                      >
                      > A collection of the more extreme developments observed
                      > in outlying Scandinavian dialects applied to create a
                      > trivocalic language. Can anyone with a knowledge of
                      > Scandinavian/Norse spot the twists? There are no
                      > grammatical changes For convenience I started from a
                      > modern Icelandic text with the most glaring
                      > innovations removed.

                      Wow! A plausible-looking North Germanic language with just three
                      vowel qualities! This could be a nice lostlang, perhaps spoken
                      somewhere on the coast of northeastern North America as a survival
                      of Vinlandic.

                      --
                      ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
                      http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
                      "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
                    • Douglas Koller
                      ... Sung to the tune of Tsa na u niva ? Kou
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 12, 2013
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                        > Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 09:36:04 -0200
                        > From: leolucas1980@...
                        > Subject: Re: vowels: five to three?
                        > To: CONLANG@...

                        > Au, saule miu!

                        > Ma n’atu saule
                        > cchiù bellu, ai ne’
                        > ’au saule miu
                        > sta nfraunte a ti!’
                        > au saule
                        > ’au saule miu
                        > sta nfraunte a ti,
                        > sta nfraunte a ti!

                        Sung to the tune of "Tsa na u niva"?

                        Kou
                      • Leonardo Castro
                        ... I didn t get it. It s just the refrain of O sole mio! with some adaptations.
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 12, 2013
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                          2013/2/12 Douglas Koller <douglaskoller@...>:
                          >> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 09:36:04 -0200
                          >> From: leolucas1980@...
                          >> Subject: Re: vowels: five to three?
                          >> To: CONLANG@...
                          >
                          >> Au, saule miu!
                          >
                          >> Ma n’atu saule
                          >> cchiù bellu, ai ne’
                          >> ’au saule miu
                          >> sta nfraunte a ti!’
                          >> au saule
                          >> ’au saule miu
                          >> sta nfraunte a ti,
                          >> sta nfraunte a ti!
                          >
                          > Sung to the tune of "Tsa na u niva"?
                          >
                          > Kou

                          I didn't get it. It's just the refrain of "O sole mio!" with some adaptations.
                        • Douglas Koller
                          ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It s_Now_or_Never_(song) Kou
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 12, 2013
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                            > Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 23:41:00 -0200
                            > From: leolucas1980@...
                            > Subject: Re: vowels: five to three?
                            > To: CONLANG@...

                            > 2013/2/12 Douglas Koller douglaskoller@...:

                            > >> Au, saule miu!
                            > >
                            > >> Ma n’atu saule
                            > >> cchiù bellu, ai ne’
                            > >> ’au saule miu
                            > >> sta nfraunte a ti!’
                            > >> au saule
                            > >> ’au saule miu
                            > >> sta nfraunte a ti,
                            > >> sta nfraunte a ti!

                            > > Sung to the tune of "Tsa na u niva"?

                            > I didn't get it. It's just the refrain of "O sole mio!" with some adaptations.

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_Now_or_Never_(song)

                            Kou
                          • Leonardo Castro
                            ... Ah! Naturally! How couldn t I get that?
                            Message 13 of 22 , Feb 13, 2013
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                              2013/2/13 Douglas Koller <douglaskoller@...>:
                              >> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 23:41:00 -0200
                              >> From: leolucas1980@...
                              >> Subject: Re: vowels: five to three?
                              >> To: CONLANG@...
                              >
                              >> 2013/2/12 Douglas Koller douglaskoller@...:
                              >
                              >> >> Au, saule miu!
                              >> >
                              >> >> Ma n’atu saule
                              >> >> cchiù bellu, ai ne’
                              >> >> ’au saule miu
                              >> >> sta nfraunte a ti!’
                              >> >> au saule
                              >> >> ’au saule miu
                              >> >> sta nfraunte a ti,
                              >> >> sta nfraunte a ti!
                              >
                              >> > Sung to the tune of "Tsa na u niva"?
                              >
                              >> I didn't get it. It's just the refrain of "O sole mio!" with some adaptations.
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It's_Now_or_Never_(song)
                              >
                              > Kou

                              Ah! Naturally! How couldn't I get that?
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