Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Child Speak

Expand Messages
  • BPJ
    ... My grandson who is 3:4 still thought _mamma_ and _pappa_ was specifically *his* parents, *and* refused to acknowledge that they had other names (though he
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      On 2013-01-29 02:41, Leonardo Castro wrote:
      > 2013/1/29 Jeff Sheets <sheets.jeff@...>:
      >>
      >> After this, babies learn a few words, the more common ones that they hear
      >> all the time from their environment. They use these words in isolation. The
      >> next stage is evidenced by the combination of two or three words. In
      >> addition, words can be overgeneralized or overspecified. "Dog" may mean all
      >> pets to a baby. "Mama" might mean both parents.
      >
      > I didn't know this could happen. My daughter made this distinction
      > very early. Actually, I guess that she thought that my name was
      > "papai" and my wife's name was "mamãe". But now she sees us talking
      > about the "papai" and "mamãe" of other kids, so she is generalizing
      > these concepts. She got very confused when she saw people calling
      > Santa Claus "Papai Noel". Now, when she sees Santa Claus, she says
      > "papai", then she point the finger at me and says "papai" again. Not
      > sure if she thinks I'm Santa Claus.
      >

      My grandson who is 3:4 still thought _mamma_ and _pappa_ was
      specifically *his* parents, *and* refused to acknowledge that
      they had other names (though he obviously knew it very well)
      until less than 6 months ago. His first 'slip' as I know was when
      I asked him whom my son calls _mamma_ and he answered correctly,
      but when I asked him whom my son calls _pappa_ he said I was
      'stupid'! :-)

      Leonardo mentioned that palatalization is
      characteristic of small children's speech. IIUC that's
      because their tung is relatively larger compared to
      their oral cavity than in adults. One thing about small
      children's pronounciation which I've noticed makes it
      hard to understand for adults is that they tend to
      assimilate all consonants of a word to the same point
      of articulation, and sometimes also manner of
      articulation, with a preference for coronals and stops.
      E.g. my son pronounced _vatten_ 'water' as [ˈdatːən]
      while _Philip_ (his name) became [ˈfiːvip]. His
      nephew says [ˈdatːən] as well but turns _Philip_
      into [tʰiːli(p)], with the final [p] missing more
      often than not. I've also noticed that early on
      many children omit word-initial consonants
      entirely, which also makes them hard to
      understand. Rhotics tend to be acquired late,
      being replaced by [w] (even where there is no [w]
      in the local language!) or [j]. The funny thing
      is that these kinds of substitutions hardly ever
      occur as diachronic sound changes in adult speech.
      I've often wondered why. I had the Vr > Vj change
      in a conlang once, but then noticed that I'd never
      seen an ANADEW for it other than children's speech;
      the rule in adult speech is rather Vr > Vː .
      It's interesting that while l > d as a remote
      assimilation is relatively common with children
      d > l as a remote *dissimilation* is moderately
      common as a sound change!

      /bpj
    • Leonardo Castro
      ... It s funny that my daughter understands the Portuguese word for dog , but she seems to prefer the onomatopeic au-au . Glenn Doman would not approve
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        2013/1/29 Jeff Sheets <sheets.jeff@...>:
        >
        > After this, babies learn a few words, the more common ones that they hear
        > all the time from their environment. They use these words in isolation. The
        > next stage is evidenced by the combination of two or three words. In
        > addition, words can be overgeneralized or overspecified. "Dog" may mean all
        > pets to a baby.

        It's funny that my daughter understands the Portuguese word for "dog",
        but she seems to prefer the onomatopeic "au-au". Glenn Doman would not
        approve this...

        [...]

        2013/1/29 Roger Mills <romiltz@...>:
        > --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...> wrote:
        > 2013/1/29 Jeff Sheets <sheets.jeff@...>:
        >
        > This got me to wondering-- in a language like Portuguese (or Spanish, which I know better), do young children ever falsely analogize incorrect tense forms? For ex., from Sp,. poner 'to put', the preterit is irreg. puse etc., the past ppl. is puesto (probably similar in Port.). Is a Spanish speaking child ever likely to form a preterit "regularly" (*poní) or past ppl. *ponido? (I have to confess to that error when I was 14, just learning the lang. :-((( )
        >
        > I'd suspect, since the preterit is rather rare anyway, proper learning of it might come much later; not so the past ppl. perhaps. And I'm sure other languages with irregularities would offer the same opportunities for incorrect formations. In others' experience, does that happen?

        In this issue, Portuguese is an exception, because its "simple past
        tense" (called "pretérito perfeito") is very common and can express
        both the ideas of English present perfect and simple past.

        If you say the word-by-word Portuguese equivalent of "yo he puesto",
        which is "eu tenho posto", it would be understood as "I have been
        putting" instead of "I have put".

        So, Brazilian children really tend to regularize some preterit verbs:

        * verb "to do" (fazer) : children may say "eu fazi" instead of "eu
        fiz" (I have done/ I did);
        * "to bring" (trazer) : "eu trazi" instead of "eu trouxe";
        * "to know" (saber): "eu sabi" instead of "eu soube";
        etc.

        Insterestingly, as the 1st-person present tense of "fazer" is "eu
        faço", there are people who maintain the 1st-person marker -o and say
        "eu fiço" for the preterit, instead of "eu fiz".

        As Portuguese has three conjugation patterns, for -ar, -er and -ir
        verbs, there children who also use the wrong pattern in the preterit,
        usually using -ir pattern for -er verbs:

        * "eu escovi" instead of "eu escovei" (I brushed);
        * "eu pari" (I gave birth) instead of "eu parei" (I stopped) - my
        cousin made this confusion that's very funny;
        etc.

        [...]

        2013/1/29 BPJ <bpj@...>:
        >
        > Leonardo mentioned that palatalization is
        > characteristic of small children's speech. IIUC that's
        > because their tung is relatively larger compared to
        > their oral cavity than in adults. One thing about small
        > children's pronounciation which I've noticed makes it
        > hard to understand for adults is that they tend to
        > assimilate all consonants of a word to the same point
        > of articulation, and sometimes also manner of
        > articulation, with a preference for coronals and stops.
        > E.g. my son pronounced _vatten_ 'water' as [ˈdatːən]
        > while _Philip_ (his name) became [ˈfiːvip]. His
        > nephew says [ˈdatːən] as well but turns _Philip_
        > into [tʰiːli(p)], with the final [p] missing more
        > often than not. I've also noticed that early on
        > many children omit word-initial consonants
        > entirely, which also makes them hard to
        > understand.

        Frequently, my daughter usually pronounce only the stressed syllable
        of a word, but, as many words of Germanic languages are already
        monosyllabics and have more consonants per syllable, it makes sense
        that they omit consonants.

        BTW, I used to think that open syllables should be more "natural" for
        children, but I have noted that sometimes my daughter prefers to end
        the words in the consonant. For instance, she usually says /of/ for
        "ovo" and /uf/ for "uva". And she tends to duplicate monosyllabic CV
        words: "pepé" instead of "pé" (foot) and "dadá" instead of "dá"
        (give).
      • Krista D. Casada
        This has probably already been mentioned--sorry if I missed it--but many adult speakers of Spanish add an -s to the preterite of the second person singular of
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          This has probably already been mentioned--sorry if I missed it--but many adult speakers of Spanish add an -s to the preterite of the second person singular of regular verbs, as in *hablastes, making these forms match the -s ending in the present tense.

          Krista C.
          ________________________________________
          From: Constructed Languages List [CONLANG@...] on behalf of Roger Mills [romiltz@...]
          Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 9:45 PM
          To: CONLANG@...
          Subject: Re: Child Speak


          =======================================

          In my just-sent response to Nicole, I suggested that outright grammar mistakes, like "taked" for "took" et al. (the result of false analogy) tend to be corrected, while other childish usages/coinages are thought to be "cute" and so survive at least for a while.

          This got me to wondering-- in a language like Portuguese (or Spanish, which I know better), do young children ever falsely analogize incorrect tense forms? For ex., from Sp,. poner 'to put', the preterit is irreg. puse etc., the past ppl. is puesto (probably similar in Port.). Is a Spanish speaking child ever likely to form a preterit "regularly" (*poní) or past ppl. *ponido? (I have to confess to that error when I was 14, just learning the lang. :-((( )

          I'd suspect, since the preterit is rather rare anyway, proper learning of it might come much later; not so the past ppl. perhaps. And I'm sure other languages with irregularities would offer the same opportunities for incorrect formations. In others' experience, does that happen?
        • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
          I m asking if I can use what we would consider incorrect grammar such as an incorrect past tense as a part of my conlang. In other words, if I make taked the
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            I'm asking if I can use what we would consider incorrect grammar such as an
            incorrect past tense as a part of my conlang. In other words, if I make
            taked the past tense of take in my conlang would that work or would an
            Earthling correct it, thinking it was a misuse of took.
            Emerging poet
            Pen Name Mellissa Green
            Budding novelist
            tweet me



            GreenNovelist

            blog


            www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Sam Stutter" <samjjs89@...>
            To: <CONLANG@...>
            Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 7:09 PM
            Subject: Re: Child Speak


            I'm not sure I understand.

            1) "Taked" vs "took" isn't such a good example of "child speak". The
            development of language among children is pretty complicated and I'll leave
            it to people who understand the topic to explain it better than I ever
            could.
            2) "Taked" vs "took" is a case of a child attempting to apply a grammatical
            law it has learnt in a situation where it is not applicable.
            3) This is an English grammar law, not one which is universal. It's not one
            which is present in Spanish for example.
            4) If the question is "do children who speak my conlang occasionally mess up
            their grammar?" then, if they are human, then definitely yes.
            5) If the question is "do people who speak my language use incorrect grammar
            forms on a usual basis?" then the answer is plainly "no". If everyone who
            spoke English used "taked" instead of "took" then "taked" would be the
            correct form and "took" would be incorrect.
            6) If your conlang is simply replacing English words like-for-like, then
            that is not a conlang - it's a cypher - a simple replacement code.

            Could you clarify the question a bit?

            On 28 Jan 2013, at 23:54, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
            <goldyemoran@...> wrote:

            > Are there any rules on child speak use in conlang? For example, can I use
            > the word taked for took in my conlang or would that make it too childlike?
            >
            > Emerging poet
            > Pen Name Mellissa Green
            > Budding novelist
            > tweet me
            >
            >
            >
            > GreenNovelist
            >
            > blog
            >
            >
            > www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
          • Patrick Dunn
            Nicole, Linguists don t really talk about incorrect grammar. They prefer a descriptive rather than prescriptive approach to language. On Tue, Jan 29, 2013
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Nicole,

              Linguists don't really talk about "incorrect" grammar. They prefer a
              descriptive rather than prescriptive approach to language.


              On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
              goldyemoran@...> wrote:

              > I'm asking if I can use what we would consider incorrect grammar such as
              > an incorrect past tense as a part of my conlang. In other words, if I make
              > taked the past tense of take in my conlang would that work or would an
              > Earthling correct it, thinking it was a misuse of took.
              >
              > Emerging poet
              > Pen Name Mellissa Green
              > Budding novelist
              > tweet me
              >
              >
              >
              > GreenNovelist
              >
              > blog
              >
              >
              > www.theworldofyemora.**wordpress.com<http://www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com>
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Stutter" <samjjs89@...>
              > To: <CONLANG@...>
              > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 7:09 PM
              > Subject: Re: Child Speak
              >
              >
              >
              > I'm not sure I understand.
              >
              > 1) "Taked" vs "took" isn't such a good example of "child speak". The
              > development of language among children is pretty complicated and I'll leave
              > it to people who understand the topic to explain it better than I ever
              > could.
              > 2) "Taked" vs "took" is a case of a child attempting to apply a
              > grammatical law it has learnt in a situation where it is not applicable.
              > 3) This is an English grammar law, not one which is universal. It's not
              > one which is present in Spanish for example.
              > 4) If the question is "do children who speak my conlang occasionally mess
              > up their grammar?" then, if they are human, then definitely yes.
              > 5) If the question is "do people who speak my language use incorrect
              > grammar forms on a usual basis?" then the answer is plainly "no". If
              > everyone who spoke English used "taked" instead of "took" then "taked"
              > would be the correct form and "took" would be incorrect.
              > 6) If your conlang is simply replacing English words like-for-like, then
              > that is not a conlang - it's a cypher - a simple replacement code.
              >
              > Could you clarify the question a bit?
              >
              > On 28 Jan 2013, at 23:54, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
              > goldyemoran@...> wrote:
              >
              > Are there any rules on child speak use in conlang? For example, can I use
              >> the word taked for took in my conlang or would that make it too childlike?
              >>
              >> Emerging poet
              >> Pen Name Mellissa Green
              >> Budding novelist
              >> tweet me
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> GreenNovelist
              >>
              >> blog
              >>
              >>
              >> www.theworldofyemora.**wordpress.com<http://www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com>
              >>
              >


              --
              Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
              order from Finishing Line
              Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
              and
              Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
            • Logan Kearsley
              On 29 January 2013 14:28, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews ... The question does not make sense, because those are not conlang words- they are English words. If
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                On 29 January 2013 14:28, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                > I'm asking if I can use what we would consider incorrect grammar such as an
                > incorrect past tense as a part of my conlang. In other words, if I make
                > taked the past tense of take in my conlang would that work or would an
                > Earthling correct it, thinking it was a misuse of took.

                The question does not make sense, because those are not conlang words-
                they are English words.
                If you mean "can I have correct and incorrect forms in my conlang, and
                portray people as using the incorrect forms sometimes", then yes,
                clearly you can, because natural languages actually do that, but no
                English speaker will know the difference unless you tell them, just
                like a monolingual French speaker would have no idea that "taked" is
                "bad English".

                -l.
              • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                I m asking can I use incorrect English forms in my conlang. Thanks for helping me clarify. In other words, it would be a deliberate incorrection of English
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  I'm asking can I use incorrect English forms in my conlang. Thanks for
                  helping me clarify. In other words, it would be a deliberate incorrection of
                  English grammar.
                  Emerging poet
                  Pen Name Mellissa Green
                  Budding novelist
                  tweet me



                  GreenNovelist

                  blog


                  www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Logan Kearsley" <chronosurfer@...>
                  To: <CONLANG@...>
                  Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 4:40 PM
                  Subject: Re: Child Speak


                  > On 29 January 2013 14:28, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                  > <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                  >> I'm asking if I can use what we would consider incorrect grammar such as
                  >> an
                  >> incorrect past tense as a part of my conlang. In other words, if I make
                  >> taked the past tense of take in my conlang would that work or would an
                  >> Earthling correct it, thinking it was a misuse of took.
                  >
                  > The question does not make sense, because those are not conlang words-
                  > they are English words.
                  > If you mean "can I have correct and incorrect forms in my conlang, and
                  > portray people as using the incorrect forms sometimes", then yes,
                  > clearly you can, because natural languages actually do that, but no
                  > English speaker will know the difference unless you tell them, just
                  > like a monolingual French speaker would have no idea that "taked" is
                  > "bad English".
                  >
                  > -l.
                • Adam Walker
                  Green.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Green.

                    On 1/29/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                    > I'm asking if I can use what we would consider incorrect grammar such as an
                    >
                    > incorrect past tense as a part of my conlang. In other words, if I make
                    > taked the past tense of take in my conlang would that work or would an
                    > Earthling correct it, thinking it was a misuse of took.
                    > Emerging poet
                    > Pen Name Mellissa Green
                    > Budding novelist
                    > tweet me
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > GreenNovelist
                    >
                    > blog
                    >
                    >
                    > www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Sam Stutter" <samjjs89@...>
                    > To: <CONLANG@...>
                    > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 7:09 PM
                    > Subject: Re: Child Speak
                    >
                    >
                    > I'm not sure I understand.
                    >
                    > 1) "Taked" vs "took" isn't such a good example of "child speak". The
                    > development of language among children is pretty complicated and I'll leave
                    >
                    > it to people who understand the topic to explain it better than I ever
                    > could.
                    > 2) "Taked" vs "took" is a case of a child attempting to apply a grammatical
                    >
                    > law it has learnt in a situation where it is not applicable.
                    > 3) This is an English grammar law, not one which is universal. It's not one
                    >
                    > which is present in Spanish for example.
                    > 4) If the question is "do children who speak my conlang occasionally mess up
                    >
                    > their grammar?" then, if they are human, then definitely yes.
                    > 5) If the question is "do people who speak my language use incorrect grammar
                    >
                    > forms on a usual basis?" then the answer is plainly "no". If everyone who
                    > spoke English used "taked" instead of "took" then "taked" would be the
                    > correct form and "took" would be incorrect.
                    > 6) If your conlang is simply replacing English words like-for-like, then
                    > that is not a conlang - it's a cypher - a simple replacement code.
                    >
                    > Could you clarify the question a bit?
                    >
                    > On 28 Jan 2013, at 23:54, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                    > <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >> Are there any rules on child speak use in conlang? For example, can I use
                    >>
                    >> the word taked for took in my conlang or would that make it too
                    >> childlike?
                    >>
                    >> Emerging poet
                    >> Pen Name Mellissa Green
                    >> Budding novelist
                    >> tweet me
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> GreenNovelist
                    >>
                    >> blog
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
                    >
                  • Peter Collier
                    Ultimately, you re designing it, it can do whatever you want it to. You seem to be suggesting your language is English, with some modifications to the grammar?
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Ultimately, you're designing it, it can do whatever you want it to.

                      You seem to be suggesting your language is English, with some modifications
                      to the grammar? In that case I'm not sure what on earth you are trying to
                      achieve. But leaving that aside I would suggest that yes, if person A speaks
                      the same language as person B, but using a slightly different grammar, then
                      each would perceive the other as being incorrect when differences arise.

                      On the other hand, if there was, by coincidence, a verb 'take' in two
                      different languages then no, a differently formed past tense would not be
                      seen as wrong. No more so than, say, you have "found" and "gefunden" as the
                      past tense forms of "find[en]" in English and German.


                      P.



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                      Behalf Of Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                      Sent: 29 January 2013 21:28
                      To: CONLANG@...
                      Subject: Re: Child Speak

                      I'm asking if I can use what we would consider incorrect grammar such as an
                      incorrect past tense as a part of my conlang. In other words, if I make
                      taked the past tense of take in my conlang would that work or would an
                      Earthling correct it, thinking it was a misuse of took.
                      Emerging poet
                      Pen Name Mellissa Green
                      Budding novelist
                      tweet me



                      GreenNovelist

                      blog


                      www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Sam Stutter" <samjjs89@...>
                      To: <CONLANG@...>
                      Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 7:09 PM
                      Subject: Re: Child Speak


                      I'm not sure I understand.

                      1) "Taked" vs "took" isn't such a good example of "child speak". The
                      development of language among children is pretty complicated and I'll leave
                      it to people who understand the topic to explain it better than I ever
                      could.
                      2) "Taked" vs "took" is a case of a child attempting to apply a grammatical
                      law it has learnt in a situation where it is not applicable.
                      3) This is an English grammar law, not one which is universal. It's not one
                      which is present in Spanish for example.
                      4) If the question is "do children who speak my conlang occasionally mess up

                      their grammar?" then, if they are human, then definitely yes.
                      5) If the question is "do people who speak my language use incorrect grammar

                      forms on a usual basis?" then the answer is plainly "no". If everyone who
                      spoke English used "taked" instead of "took" then "taked" would be the
                      correct form and "took" would be incorrect.
                      6) If your conlang is simply replacing English words like-for-like, then
                      that is not a conlang - it's a cypher - a simple replacement code.

                      Could you clarify the question a bit?

                      On 28 Jan 2013, at 23:54, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                      <goldyemoran@...> wrote:

                      > Are there any rules on child speak use in conlang? For example, can I use
                      > the word taked for took in my conlang or would that make it too childlike?
                      >
                      > Emerging poet
                      > Pen Name Mellissa Green
                      > Budding novelist
                      > tweet me
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > GreenNovelist
                      >
                      > blog
                      >
                      >
                      > www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
                    • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                      Good point. Emerging poet Pen Name Mellissa Green Budding novelist tweet me GreenNovelist blog www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com ... From: Patrick Dunn
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Good point.
                        Emerging poet
                        Pen Name Mellissa Green
                        Budding novelist
                        tweet me



                        GreenNovelist

                        blog


                        www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Patrick Dunn" <pwdunn@...>
                        To: <CONLANG@...>
                        Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 7:57 PM
                        Subject: Re: Child Speak


                        > Why would you use either word in your conlang? They're English words.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 5:54 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
                        > goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >> Are there any rules on child speak use in conlang? For example, can I use
                        >> the word taked for took in my conlang or would that make it too
                        >> childlike?
                        >>
                        >> Emerging poet
                        >> Pen Name Mellissa Green
                        >> Budding novelist
                        >> tweet me
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> GreenNovelist
                        >>
                        >> blog
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
                        > order from Finishing Line
                        > Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
                        > and
                        > Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
                      • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                        Ok. Emerging poet Pen Name Mellissa Green Budding novelist tweet me GreenNovelist blog www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com ... From: Patrick Dunn
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Ok.
                          Emerging poet
                          Pen Name Mellissa Green
                          Budding novelist
                          tweet me



                          GreenNovelist

                          blog


                          www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Patrick Dunn" <pwdunn@...>
                          To: <CONLANG@...>
                          Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 4:32 PM
                          Subject: Re: Child Speak


                          > Nicole,
                          >
                          > Linguists don't really talk about "incorrect" grammar. They prefer a
                          > descriptive rather than prescriptive approach to language.
                          >
                          >
                          > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
                          > goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >> I'm asking if I can use what we would consider incorrect grammar such as
                          >> an incorrect past tense as a part of my conlang. In other words, if I
                          >> make
                          >> taked the past tense of take in my conlang would that work or would an
                          >> Earthling correct it, thinking it was a misuse of took.
                          >>
                          >> Emerging poet
                          >> Pen Name Mellissa Green
                          >> Budding novelist
                          >> tweet me
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> GreenNovelist
                          >>
                          >> blog
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> www.theworldofyemora.**wordpress.com<http://www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Stutter" <samjjs89@...>
                          >> To: <CONLANG@...>
                          >> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 7:09 PM
                          >> Subject: Re: Child Speak
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> I'm not sure I understand.
                          >>
                          >> 1) "Taked" vs "took" isn't such a good example of "child speak". The
                          >> development of language among children is pretty complicated and I'll
                          >> leave
                          >> it to people who understand the topic to explain it better than I ever
                          >> could.
                          >> 2) "Taked" vs "took" is a case of a child attempting to apply a
                          >> grammatical law it has learnt in a situation where it is not applicable.
                          >> 3) This is an English grammar law, not one which is universal. It's not
                          >> one which is present in Spanish for example.
                          >> 4) If the question is "do children who speak my conlang occasionally mess
                          >> up their grammar?" then, if they are human, then definitely yes.
                          >> 5) If the question is "do people who speak my language use incorrect
                          >> grammar forms on a usual basis?" then the answer is plainly "no". If
                          >> everyone who spoke English used "taked" instead of "took" then "taked"
                          >> would be the correct form and "took" would be incorrect.
                          >> 6) If your conlang is simply replacing English words like-for-like, then
                          >> that is not a conlang - it's a cypher - a simple replacement code.
                          >>
                          >> Could you clarify the question a bit?
                          >>
                          >> On 28 Jan 2013, at 23:54, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
                          >> goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                          >>
                          >> Are there any rules on child speak use in conlang? For example, can I
                          >> use
                          >>> the word taked for took in my conlang or would that make it too
                          >>> childlike?
                          >>>
                          >>> Emerging poet
                          >>> Pen Name Mellissa Green
                          >>> Budding novelist
                          >>> tweet me
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> GreenNovelist
                          >>>
                          >>> blog
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> www.theworldofyemora.**wordpress.com<http://www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com>
                          >>>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
                          > order from Finishing Line
                          > Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
                          > and
                          > Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.