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Re: Child Speak

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  • Roger Mills
    ... I didn t know this could happen. My daughter made this distinction very early. Actually, I guess that she thought that my name was papai and my wife s
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 28, 2013
      --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...> wrote:
      2013/1/29 Jeff Sheets <sheets.jeff@...>:
      >
      > After this, babies learn a few words, the more common ones that they hear
      > all the time from their environment. They use these words in isolation. The
      > next stage is evidenced by the combination of two or three words. In
      > addition, words can be overgeneralized or overspecified. "Dog" may mean all
      > pets to a baby. "Mama" might mean both parents.

      I didn't know this could happen. My daughter made this distinction
      very early. Actually, I guess that she thought that my name was
      "papai" and my wife's name was "mamãe". But now she sees us talking
      about the "papai" and "mamãe" of other kids, so she is generalizing
      these concepts. She got very confused when she saw people calling
      Santa Claus "Papai Noel". Now, when she sees Santa Claus, she says
      "papai", then she point the finger at me and says "papai" again. Not
      sure if she thinks I'm Santa Claus.
      =======================================

      In my just-sent response to Nicole, I suggested that outright grammar mistakes, like "taked" for "took" et al. (the result of false analogy) tend to be corrected, while other childish usages/coinages are thought to be "cute" and so survive at least for a while.

      This got me to wondering-- in a language like Portuguese (or Spanish, which I know better), do young children ever falsely analogize incorrect tense forms? For ex., from Sp,. poner 'to put', the preterit is irreg. puse etc., the past ppl. is puesto (probably similar in Port.). Is a Spanish speaking child ever likely to form a preterit "regularly" (*poní)  or past ppl. *ponido? (I have to confess to that error when I was 14, just learning the lang. :-((( )

      I'd suspect, since the preterit is rather rare anyway, proper learning of it might come much later; not so the past ppl. perhaps. And I'm sure other languages with irregularities would offer the same opportunities for incorrect formations. In others' experience, does that happen?
    • BPJ
      ... My grandson who is 3:4 still thought _mamma_ and _pappa_ was specifically *his* parents, *and* refused to acknowledge that they had other names (though he
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
        On 2013-01-29 02:41, Leonardo Castro wrote:
        > 2013/1/29 Jeff Sheets <sheets.jeff@...>:
        >>
        >> After this, babies learn a few words, the more common ones that they hear
        >> all the time from their environment. They use these words in isolation. The
        >> next stage is evidenced by the combination of two or three words. In
        >> addition, words can be overgeneralized or overspecified. "Dog" may mean all
        >> pets to a baby. "Mama" might mean both parents.
        >
        > I didn't know this could happen. My daughter made this distinction
        > very early. Actually, I guess that she thought that my name was
        > "papai" and my wife's name was "mamãe". But now she sees us talking
        > about the "papai" and "mamãe" of other kids, so she is generalizing
        > these concepts. She got very confused when she saw people calling
        > Santa Claus "Papai Noel". Now, when she sees Santa Claus, she says
        > "papai", then she point the finger at me and says "papai" again. Not
        > sure if she thinks I'm Santa Claus.
        >

        My grandson who is 3:4 still thought _mamma_ and _pappa_ was
        specifically *his* parents, *and* refused to acknowledge that
        they had other names (though he obviously knew it very well)
        until less than 6 months ago. His first 'slip' as I know was when
        I asked him whom my son calls _mamma_ and he answered correctly,
        but when I asked him whom my son calls _pappa_ he said I was
        'stupid'! :-)

        Leonardo mentioned that palatalization is
        characteristic of small children's speech. IIUC that's
        because their tung is relatively larger compared to
        their oral cavity than in adults. One thing about small
        children's pronounciation which I've noticed makes it
        hard to understand for adults is that they tend to
        assimilate all consonants of a word to the same point
        of articulation, and sometimes also manner of
        articulation, with a preference for coronals and stops.
        E.g. my son pronounced _vatten_ 'water' as [ˈdatːən]
        while _Philip_ (his name) became [ˈfiːvip]. His
        nephew says [ˈdatːən] as well but turns _Philip_
        into [tʰiːli(p)], with the final [p] missing more
        often than not. I've also noticed that early on
        many children omit word-initial consonants
        entirely, which also makes them hard to
        understand. Rhotics tend to be acquired late,
        being replaced by [w] (even where there is no [w]
        in the local language!) or [j]. The funny thing
        is that these kinds of substitutions hardly ever
        occur as diachronic sound changes in adult speech.
        I've often wondered why. I had the Vr > Vj change
        in a conlang once, but then noticed that I'd never
        seen an ANADEW for it other than children's speech;
        the rule in adult speech is rather Vr > Vː .
        It's interesting that while l > d as a remote
        assimilation is relatively common with children
        d > l as a remote *dissimilation* is moderately
        common as a sound change!

        /bpj
      • Leonardo Castro
        ... It s funny that my daughter understands the Portuguese word for dog , but she seems to prefer the onomatopeic au-au . Glenn Doman would not approve
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
          2013/1/29 Jeff Sheets <sheets.jeff@...>:
          >
          > After this, babies learn a few words, the more common ones that they hear
          > all the time from their environment. They use these words in isolation. The
          > next stage is evidenced by the combination of two or three words. In
          > addition, words can be overgeneralized or overspecified. "Dog" may mean all
          > pets to a baby.

          It's funny that my daughter understands the Portuguese word for "dog",
          but she seems to prefer the onomatopeic "au-au". Glenn Doman would not
          approve this...

          [...]

          2013/1/29 Roger Mills <romiltz@...>:
          > --- On Mon, 1/28/13, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1980@...> wrote:
          > 2013/1/29 Jeff Sheets <sheets.jeff@...>:
          >
          > This got me to wondering-- in a language like Portuguese (or Spanish, which I know better), do young children ever falsely analogize incorrect tense forms? For ex., from Sp,. poner 'to put', the preterit is irreg. puse etc., the past ppl. is puesto (probably similar in Port.). Is a Spanish speaking child ever likely to form a preterit "regularly" (*poní) or past ppl. *ponido? (I have to confess to that error when I was 14, just learning the lang. :-((( )
          >
          > I'd suspect, since the preterit is rather rare anyway, proper learning of it might come much later; not so the past ppl. perhaps. And I'm sure other languages with irregularities would offer the same opportunities for incorrect formations. In others' experience, does that happen?

          In this issue, Portuguese is an exception, because its "simple past
          tense" (called "pretérito perfeito") is very common and can express
          both the ideas of English present perfect and simple past.

          If you say the word-by-word Portuguese equivalent of "yo he puesto",
          which is "eu tenho posto", it would be understood as "I have been
          putting" instead of "I have put".

          So, Brazilian children really tend to regularize some preterit verbs:

          * verb "to do" (fazer) : children may say "eu fazi" instead of "eu
          fiz" (I have done/ I did);
          * "to bring" (trazer) : "eu trazi" instead of "eu trouxe";
          * "to know" (saber): "eu sabi" instead of "eu soube";
          etc.

          Insterestingly, as the 1st-person present tense of "fazer" is "eu
          faço", there are people who maintain the 1st-person marker -o and say
          "eu fiço" for the preterit, instead of "eu fiz".

          As Portuguese has three conjugation patterns, for -ar, -er and -ir
          verbs, there children who also use the wrong pattern in the preterit,
          usually using -ir pattern for -er verbs:

          * "eu escovi" instead of "eu escovei" (I brushed);
          * "eu pari" (I gave birth) instead of "eu parei" (I stopped) - my
          cousin made this confusion that's very funny;
          etc.

          [...]

          2013/1/29 BPJ <bpj@...>:
          >
          > Leonardo mentioned that palatalization is
          > characteristic of small children's speech. IIUC that's
          > because their tung is relatively larger compared to
          > their oral cavity than in adults. One thing about small
          > children's pronounciation which I've noticed makes it
          > hard to understand for adults is that they tend to
          > assimilate all consonants of a word to the same point
          > of articulation, and sometimes also manner of
          > articulation, with a preference for coronals and stops.
          > E.g. my son pronounced _vatten_ 'water' as [ˈdatːən]
          > while _Philip_ (his name) became [ˈfiːvip]. His
          > nephew says [ˈdatːən] as well but turns _Philip_
          > into [tʰiːli(p)], with the final [p] missing more
          > often than not. I've also noticed that early on
          > many children omit word-initial consonants
          > entirely, which also makes them hard to
          > understand.

          Frequently, my daughter usually pronounce only the stressed syllable
          of a word, but, as many words of Germanic languages are already
          monosyllabics and have more consonants per syllable, it makes sense
          that they omit consonants.

          BTW, I used to think that open syllables should be more "natural" for
          children, but I have noted that sometimes my daughter prefers to end
          the words in the consonant. For instance, she usually says /of/ for
          "ovo" and /uf/ for "uva". And she tends to duplicate monosyllabic CV
          words: "pepé" instead of "pé" (foot) and "dadá" instead of "dá"
          (give).
        • Krista D. Casada
          This has probably already been mentioned--sorry if I missed it--but many adult speakers of Spanish add an -s to the preterite of the second person singular of
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
            This has probably already been mentioned--sorry if I missed it--but many adult speakers of Spanish add an -s to the preterite of the second person singular of regular verbs, as in *hablastes, making these forms match the -s ending in the present tense.

            Krista C.
            ________________________________________
            From: Constructed Languages List [CONLANG@...] on behalf of Roger Mills [romiltz@...]
            Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 9:45 PM
            To: CONLANG@...
            Subject: Re: Child Speak


            =======================================

            In my just-sent response to Nicole, I suggested that outright grammar mistakes, like "taked" for "took" et al. (the result of false analogy) tend to be corrected, while other childish usages/coinages are thought to be "cute" and so survive at least for a while.

            This got me to wondering-- in a language like Portuguese (or Spanish, which I know better), do young children ever falsely analogize incorrect tense forms? For ex., from Sp,. poner 'to put', the preterit is irreg. puse etc., the past ppl. is puesto (probably similar in Port.). Is a Spanish speaking child ever likely to form a preterit "regularly" (*poní) or past ppl. *ponido? (I have to confess to that error when I was 14, just learning the lang. :-((( )

            I'd suspect, since the preterit is rather rare anyway, proper learning of it might come much later; not so the past ppl. perhaps. And I'm sure other languages with irregularities would offer the same opportunities for incorrect formations. In others' experience, does that happen?
          • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
            I m asking if I can use what we would consider incorrect grammar such as an incorrect past tense as a part of my conlang. In other words, if I make taked the
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
              I'm asking if I can use what we would consider incorrect grammar such as an
              incorrect past tense as a part of my conlang. In other words, if I make
              taked the past tense of take in my conlang would that work or would an
              Earthling correct it, thinking it was a misuse of took.
              Emerging poet
              Pen Name Mellissa Green
              Budding novelist
              tweet me



              GreenNovelist

              blog


              www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Sam Stutter" <samjjs89@...>
              To: <CONLANG@...>
              Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 7:09 PM
              Subject: Re: Child Speak


              I'm not sure I understand.

              1) "Taked" vs "took" isn't such a good example of "child speak". The
              development of language among children is pretty complicated and I'll leave
              it to people who understand the topic to explain it better than I ever
              could.
              2) "Taked" vs "took" is a case of a child attempting to apply a grammatical
              law it has learnt in a situation where it is not applicable.
              3) This is an English grammar law, not one which is universal. It's not one
              which is present in Spanish for example.
              4) If the question is "do children who speak my conlang occasionally mess up
              their grammar?" then, if they are human, then definitely yes.
              5) If the question is "do people who speak my language use incorrect grammar
              forms on a usual basis?" then the answer is plainly "no". If everyone who
              spoke English used "taked" instead of "took" then "taked" would be the
              correct form and "took" would be incorrect.
              6) If your conlang is simply replacing English words like-for-like, then
              that is not a conlang - it's a cypher - a simple replacement code.

              Could you clarify the question a bit?

              On 28 Jan 2013, at 23:54, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
              <goldyemoran@...> wrote:

              > Are there any rules on child speak use in conlang? For example, can I use
              > the word taked for took in my conlang or would that make it too childlike?
              >
              > Emerging poet
              > Pen Name Mellissa Green
              > Budding novelist
              > tweet me
              >
              >
              >
              > GreenNovelist
              >
              > blog
              >
              >
              > www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
            • Patrick Dunn
              Nicole, Linguists don t really talk about incorrect grammar. They prefer a descriptive rather than prescriptive approach to language. On Tue, Jan 29, 2013
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
                Nicole,

                Linguists don't really talk about "incorrect" grammar. They prefer a
                descriptive rather than prescriptive approach to language.


                On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
                goldyemoran@...> wrote:

                > I'm asking if I can use what we would consider incorrect grammar such as
                > an incorrect past tense as a part of my conlang. In other words, if I make
                > taked the past tense of take in my conlang would that work or would an
                > Earthling correct it, thinking it was a misuse of took.
                >
                > Emerging poet
                > Pen Name Mellissa Green
                > Budding novelist
                > tweet me
                >
                >
                >
                > GreenNovelist
                >
                > blog
                >
                >
                > www.theworldofyemora.**wordpress.com<http://www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com>
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Stutter" <samjjs89@...>
                > To: <CONLANG@...>
                > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 7:09 PM
                > Subject: Re: Child Speak
                >
                >
                >
                > I'm not sure I understand.
                >
                > 1) "Taked" vs "took" isn't such a good example of "child speak". The
                > development of language among children is pretty complicated and I'll leave
                > it to people who understand the topic to explain it better than I ever
                > could.
                > 2) "Taked" vs "took" is a case of a child attempting to apply a
                > grammatical law it has learnt in a situation where it is not applicable.
                > 3) This is an English grammar law, not one which is universal. It's not
                > one which is present in Spanish for example.
                > 4) If the question is "do children who speak my conlang occasionally mess
                > up their grammar?" then, if they are human, then definitely yes.
                > 5) If the question is "do people who speak my language use incorrect
                > grammar forms on a usual basis?" then the answer is plainly "no". If
                > everyone who spoke English used "taked" instead of "took" then "taked"
                > would be the correct form and "took" would be incorrect.
                > 6) If your conlang is simply replacing English words like-for-like, then
                > that is not a conlang - it's a cypher - a simple replacement code.
                >
                > Could you clarify the question a bit?
                >
                > On 28 Jan 2013, at 23:54, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
                > goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                >
                > Are there any rules on child speak use in conlang? For example, can I use
                >> the word taked for took in my conlang or would that make it too childlike?
                >>
                >> Emerging poet
                >> Pen Name Mellissa Green
                >> Budding novelist
                >> tweet me
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> GreenNovelist
                >>
                >> blog
                >>
                >>
                >> www.theworldofyemora.**wordpress.com<http://www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com>
                >>
                >


                --
                Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
                order from Finishing Line
                Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
                and
                Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
              • Logan Kearsley
                On 29 January 2013 14:28, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews ... The question does not make sense, because those are not conlang words- they are English words. If
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
                  On 29 January 2013 14:28, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                  <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                  > I'm asking if I can use what we would consider incorrect grammar such as an
                  > incorrect past tense as a part of my conlang. In other words, if I make
                  > taked the past tense of take in my conlang would that work or would an
                  > Earthling correct it, thinking it was a misuse of took.

                  The question does not make sense, because those are not conlang words-
                  they are English words.
                  If you mean "can I have correct and incorrect forms in my conlang, and
                  portray people as using the incorrect forms sometimes", then yes,
                  clearly you can, because natural languages actually do that, but no
                  English speaker will know the difference unless you tell them, just
                  like a monolingual French speaker would have no idea that "taked" is
                  "bad English".

                  -l.
                • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                  I m asking can I use incorrect English forms in my conlang. Thanks for helping me clarify. In other words, it would be a deliberate incorrection of English
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
                    I'm asking can I use incorrect English forms in my conlang. Thanks for
                    helping me clarify. In other words, it would be a deliberate incorrection of
                    English grammar.
                    Emerging poet
                    Pen Name Mellissa Green
                    Budding novelist
                    tweet me



                    GreenNovelist

                    blog


                    www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Logan Kearsley" <chronosurfer@...>
                    To: <CONLANG@...>
                    Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 4:40 PM
                    Subject: Re: Child Speak


                    > On 29 January 2013 14:28, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                    > <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                    >> I'm asking if I can use what we would consider incorrect grammar such as
                    >> an
                    >> incorrect past tense as a part of my conlang. In other words, if I make
                    >> taked the past tense of take in my conlang would that work or would an
                    >> Earthling correct it, thinking it was a misuse of took.
                    >
                    > The question does not make sense, because those are not conlang words-
                    > they are English words.
                    > If you mean "can I have correct and incorrect forms in my conlang, and
                    > portray people as using the incorrect forms sometimes", then yes,
                    > clearly you can, because natural languages actually do that, but no
                    > English speaker will know the difference unless you tell them, just
                    > like a monolingual French speaker would have no idea that "taked" is
                    > "bad English".
                    >
                    > -l.
                  • Adam Walker
                    Green.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
                      Green.

                      On 1/29/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                      > I'm asking if I can use what we would consider incorrect grammar such as an
                      >
                      > incorrect past tense as a part of my conlang. In other words, if I make
                      > taked the past tense of take in my conlang would that work or would an
                      > Earthling correct it, thinking it was a misuse of took.
                      > Emerging poet
                      > Pen Name Mellissa Green
                      > Budding novelist
                      > tweet me
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > GreenNovelist
                      >
                      > blog
                      >
                      >
                      > www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Sam Stutter" <samjjs89@...>
                      > To: <CONLANG@...>
                      > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 7:09 PM
                      > Subject: Re: Child Speak
                      >
                      >
                      > I'm not sure I understand.
                      >
                      > 1) "Taked" vs "took" isn't such a good example of "child speak". The
                      > development of language among children is pretty complicated and I'll leave
                      >
                      > it to people who understand the topic to explain it better than I ever
                      > could.
                      > 2) "Taked" vs "took" is a case of a child attempting to apply a grammatical
                      >
                      > law it has learnt in a situation where it is not applicable.
                      > 3) This is an English grammar law, not one which is universal. It's not one
                      >
                      > which is present in Spanish for example.
                      > 4) If the question is "do children who speak my conlang occasionally mess up
                      >
                      > their grammar?" then, if they are human, then definitely yes.
                      > 5) If the question is "do people who speak my language use incorrect grammar
                      >
                      > forms on a usual basis?" then the answer is plainly "no". If everyone who
                      > spoke English used "taked" instead of "took" then "taked" would be the
                      > correct form and "took" would be incorrect.
                      > 6) If your conlang is simply replacing English words like-for-like, then
                      > that is not a conlang - it's a cypher - a simple replacement code.
                      >
                      > Could you clarify the question a bit?
                      >
                      > On 28 Jan 2013, at 23:54, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                      > <goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >> Are there any rules on child speak use in conlang? For example, can I use
                      >>
                      >> the word taked for took in my conlang or would that make it too
                      >> childlike?
                      >>
                      >> Emerging poet
                      >> Pen Name Mellissa Green
                      >> Budding novelist
                      >> tweet me
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> GreenNovelist
                      >>
                      >> blog
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
                      >
                    • Peter Collier
                      Ultimately, you re designing it, it can do whatever you want it to. You seem to be suggesting your language is English, with some modifications to the grammar?
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
                        Ultimately, you're designing it, it can do whatever you want it to.

                        You seem to be suggesting your language is English, with some modifications
                        to the grammar? In that case I'm not sure what on earth you are trying to
                        achieve. But leaving that aside I would suggest that yes, if person A speaks
                        the same language as person B, but using a slightly different grammar, then
                        each would perceive the other as being incorrect when differences arise.

                        On the other hand, if there was, by coincidence, a verb 'take' in two
                        different languages then no, a differently formed past tense would not be
                        seen as wrong. No more so than, say, you have "found" and "gefunden" as the
                        past tense forms of "find[en]" in English and German.


                        P.



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                        Behalf Of Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                        Sent: 29 January 2013 21:28
                        To: CONLANG@...
                        Subject: Re: Child Speak

                        I'm asking if I can use what we would consider incorrect grammar such as an
                        incorrect past tense as a part of my conlang. In other words, if I make
                        taked the past tense of take in my conlang would that work or would an
                        Earthling correct it, thinking it was a misuse of took.
                        Emerging poet
                        Pen Name Mellissa Green
                        Budding novelist
                        tweet me



                        GreenNovelist

                        blog


                        www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Sam Stutter" <samjjs89@...>
                        To: <CONLANG@...>
                        Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 7:09 PM
                        Subject: Re: Child Speak


                        I'm not sure I understand.

                        1) "Taked" vs "took" isn't such a good example of "child speak". The
                        development of language among children is pretty complicated and I'll leave
                        it to people who understand the topic to explain it better than I ever
                        could.
                        2) "Taked" vs "took" is a case of a child attempting to apply a grammatical
                        law it has learnt in a situation where it is not applicable.
                        3) This is an English grammar law, not one which is universal. It's not one
                        which is present in Spanish for example.
                        4) If the question is "do children who speak my conlang occasionally mess up

                        their grammar?" then, if they are human, then definitely yes.
                        5) If the question is "do people who speak my language use incorrect grammar

                        forms on a usual basis?" then the answer is plainly "no". If everyone who
                        spoke English used "taked" instead of "took" then "taked" would be the
                        correct form and "took" would be incorrect.
                        6) If your conlang is simply replacing English words like-for-like, then
                        that is not a conlang - it's a cypher - a simple replacement code.

                        Could you clarify the question a bit?

                        On 28 Jan 2013, at 23:54, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                        <goldyemoran@...> wrote:

                        > Are there any rules on child speak use in conlang? For example, can I use
                        > the word taked for took in my conlang or would that make it too childlike?
                        >
                        > Emerging poet
                        > Pen Name Mellissa Green
                        > Budding novelist
                        > tweet me
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > GreenNovelist
                        >
                        > blog
                        >
                        >
                        > www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
                      • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                        Good point. Emerging poet Pen Name Mellissa Green Budding novelist tweet me GreenNovelist blog www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com ... From: Patrick Dunn
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
                          Good point.
                          Emerging poet
                          Pen Name Mellissa Green
                          Budding novelist
                          tweet me



                          GreenNovelist

                          blog


                          www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Patrick Dunn" <pwdunn@...>
                          To: <CONLANG@...>
                          Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 7:57 PM
                          Subject: Re: Child Speak


                          > Why would you use either word in your conlang? They're English words.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 5:54 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
                          > goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >> Are there any rules on child speak use in conlang? For example, can I use
                          >> the word taked for took in my conlang or would that make it too
                          >> childlike?
                          >>
                          >> Emerging poet
                          >> Pen Name Mellissa Green
                          >> Budding novelist
                          >> tweet me
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> GreenNovelist
                          >>
                          >> blog
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
                          > order from Finishing Line
                          > Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
                          > and
                          > Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
                        • Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
                          Ok. Emerging poet Pen Name Mellissa Green Budding novelist tweet me GreenNovelist blog www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com ... From: Patrick Dunn
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jan 29, 2013
                            Ok.
                            Emerging poet
                            Pen Name Mellissa Green
                            Budding novelist
                            tweet me



                            GreenNovelist

                            blog


                            www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Patrick Dunn" <pwdunn@...>
                            To: <CONLANG@...>
                            Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 4:32 PM
                            Subject: Re: Child Speak


                            > Nicole,
                            >
                            > Linguists don't really talk about "incorrect" grammar. They prefer a
                            > descriptive rather than prescriptive approach to language.
                            >
                            >
                            > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
                            > goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >> I'm asking if I can use what we would consider incorrect grammar such as
                            >> an incorrect past tense as a part of my conlang. In other words, if I
                            >> make
                            >> taked the past tense of take in my conlang would that work or would an
                            >> Earthling correct it, thinking it was a misuse of took.
                            >>
                            >> Emerging poet
                            >> Pen Name Mellissa Green
                            >> Budding novelist
                            >> tweet me
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> GreenNovelist
                            >>
                            >> blog
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> www.theworldofyemora.**wordpress.com<http://www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Stutter" <samjjs89@...>
                            >> To: <CONLANG@...>
                            >> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 7:09 PM
                            >> Subject: Re: Child Speak
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> I'm not sure I understand.
                            >>
                            >> 1) "Taked" vs "took" isn't such a good example of "child speak". The
                            >> development of language among children is pretty complicated and I'll
                            >> leave
                            >> it to people who understand the topic to explain it better than I ever
                            >> could.
                            >> 2) "Taked" vs "took" is a case of a child attempting to apply a
                            >> grammatical law it has learnt in a situation where it is not applicable.
                            >> 3) This is an English grammar law, not one which is universal. It's not
                            >> one which is present in Spanish for example.
                            >> 4) If the question is "do children who speak my conlang occasionally mess
                            >> up their grammar?" then, if they are human, then definitely yes.
                            >> 5) If the question is "do people who speak my language use incorrect
                            >> grammar forms on a usual basis?" then the answer is plainly "no". If
                            >> everyone who spoke English used "taked" instead of "took" then "taked"
                            >> would be the correct form and "took" would be incorrect.
                            >> 6) If your conlang is simply replacing English words like-for-like, then
                            >> that is not a conlang - it's a cypher - a simple replacement code.
                            >>
                            >> Could you clarify the question a bit?
                            >>
                            >> On 28 Jan 2013, at 23:54, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
                            >> goldyemoran@...> wrote:
                            >>
                            >> Are there any rules on child speak use in conlang? For example, can I
                            >> use
                            >>> the word taked for took in my conlang or would that make it too
                            >>> childlike?
                            >>>
                            >>> Emerging poet
                            >>> Pen Name Mellissa Green
                            >>> Budding novelist
                            >>> tweet me
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> GreenNovelist
                            >>>
                            >>> blog
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>> www.theworldofyemora.**wordpress.com<http://www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com>
                            >>>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            > Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
                            > order from Finishing Line
                            > Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
                            > and
                            > Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
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