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Re: to be cognate or not to be cognate

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  • Charles W Brickner
    ... From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU] On Behalf Of Alex Fink I wonder whether the Italian /u/
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 24, 2013
      >--- On Thu, 1/24/13, Charles W Brickner <tepeyachill@...> wrote:
      >The Romanian cognates are interesting.
      >To close is 'închide'. To open is 'deschide'.
      >To my non-professional eye '-chide' has to be cognate to the Italian
      >'chiudere' < Lat. 'claudere', shut.
      >Thus, the Romanian word for close means "to shut in" and the word for
      >open means "to unclose".
      >===========================
      > On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:06:58 -0800, Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:

      >Thanks for the Romanian. I've been wondering about Ital. chiudere. Shouldn't *claudere have > **clodere, then modern ?chiodere? After all we have cosa < causa, poco < paucus....but I can't summon up any others offhand. My knowlege of Italian developments is scanty; I do know that the "standard" shows a lot of dialect mixing.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On Behalf Of Alex Fink

      I wonder whether the Italian /u/ <? *u: might've instead been restored analogically from Latin prefixed forms {con-, in-, ex-, oc-, ...}clūdere.
      ==============================
      My first thought is that it's because of the C+l structure which neither 'paucus' or 'causa' have. But I'm no linguist.
      Charlie
    • David McCann
      On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:06:58 -0800 ... The verb cludere turns up occasionally in Latin, alongside claudere; it s a back-formation from derivatives like
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 25, 2013
        On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:06:58 -0800
        Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:

        > Thanks for the Romanian. I've been wondering about Ital. chiudere.
        > Shouldn't  *claudere have > **clodere, then modern ?chiodere? After
        > all we have cosa < causa, poco < paucus....but I can't summon up any
        > others offhand. My knowlege of Italian developments is scanty; I do
        > know that the "standard" shows a lot of dialect mixing.

        The verb cludere turns up occasionally in Latin, alongside claudere;
        it's a back-formation from derivatives like excludere, where the vowel
        weakening is standard.
      • Alex Fink
        ... Nailed it! obPSA: Remember morphological analogy in your own diachronic conlanging work! As great as regular (and irregular, c.f. dialect mixing ) sound
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 25, 2013
          On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 16:46:46 +0000, David McCann <david@...> wrote:

          >On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:06:58 -0800
          >Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:
          >
          >> Thanks for the Romanian. I've been wondering about Ital. chiudere.
          >> Shouldn't *claudere have > **clodere, then modern ?chiodere? After
          >> all we have cosa < causa, poco < paucus....but I can't summon up any
          >> others offhand. My knowlege of Italian developments is scanty; I do
          >> know that the "standard" shows a lot of dialect mixing.
          >
          >The verb cludere turns up occasionally in Latin, alongside claudere;
          >it's a back-formation from derivatives like excludere, where the vowel
          >weakening is standard.

          Nailed it!

          obPSA: Remember morphological analogy in your own diachronic conlanging work! As great as regular (and irregular, c.f. "dialect mixing") sound change is, it's not the only thing -- and that goes whether you try to apply it morpheme by morpheme or inflected word by inflected word. You should always at least sit down with a complete paradigm or five for each word class with sound changes applied, momentarily clear the ancestor language from your mind, and think whether you can tweak some forms to bring out regular patterns (be they historically justified or not). For extra credit, do it in several small time-steps instead of one large one.

          Alex
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