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Re: Fiat Lingua Article on Esperanto Speakers

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  • Roger Mills
    (Errata dept.) David-- It could take a while, as I m leaving on Sunday for 3 weeks in Florida (by no means a vacation, strictly a duty.....). Maybe someone
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 4, 2013
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      (Errata dept.)
      David-- It could take a while, as I'm leaving on Sunday for 3 weeks in Florida (by no means a vacation, strictly a duty.....). Maybe someone else will have spotted them in the meantime.
      R.

      --- On Fri, 1/4/13, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:
      Yes, that would be very helpful. Thanks!
      =======================================
    • Jim Henry
      ... his language, Logopandecteision, whose name literally means “gold out of dung,” as “a most exquisite jewel, more precious than a diamond inchased in
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 6, 2013
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        On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 5:43 PM, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:
        > A couple days late, but this month's Fiat Lingua is an undergraduate thesis on the status of the Esperanto speaking community (and I believe a couple of

        >>>Sir Thomas Urquhart of Cromarty described
        his language, Logopandecteision, whose name literally means “gold out
        of dung,” as
        “a most exquisite jewel, more precious than a diamond inchased in gold, the like
        whereof was never seen in any age,” but he had more praise for what his language
        was allegedly capable of than details about how exactly it would do it
        (Okrent 2009:
        27-28).
        <<<

        Someone who knows Greek better than I do can perhaps correct me on
        this, but I'm pretty sure "gold out of dung" is the gloss of
        "Ekskybalauron", the *other* book Urquhuart wrote about his conlang.
        "Logopandecteision" glosses as something more like
        "word-all-acceptable". And I'm not sure he intended either of those
        book titles, "Logopandecteision" or "Ekskybalauron", as the actual
        name of his language, any more than "Dr. Esperanto" originally
        intended "Esperanto" to be the name of his "Internacia Lingvo".

        Ms. Solis's comment on the language in the last clause of her sentence
        there is spot-on, however.

        I don't have Arika Okrent's book handy so I"m not sure if Solis is
        simply repeating an error on Okrent's part about the name of
        Urquhart's language, or if she's misunderstood Okrent.

        I'll send some more nitpicky comments offlist.

        --
        Jim Henry
        http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
        http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
      • Charles W Brickner
        ... From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU] On Behalf Of Jim Henry Someone who knows Greek better than I do can perhaps correct me
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 6, 2013
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          -----Original Message-----
          From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On Behalf Of Jim Henry

          Someone who knows Greek better than I do can perhaps correct me on this, but I'm pretty sure "gold out of dung" is the gloss of "Ekskybalauron", the *other* book Urquhuart wrote about his conlang.
          ============================================

          ἐκ (ἐξ) ek(s) = from out of

          το σκύβαλον (to skúbalon) = dung

          I don’t know the word “auron”. The closest word to that that I know is “αὔρα” which means ‘breeze’.

          Of course, “aurum” is the Latin word for ‘gold’. The Greek word is χρῡςός (chrysós).

          “Gold from dung” as a meaning of ‘ekskybalauron’ sounds like a folk etymology to me.

          Charlie
        • MorphemeAddict
          From page 28 of* In the land of invented languages* by Arika Okrent: [Scotsman Sir Thomas Urquhart of Cromarty] published two works on this
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 6, 2013
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            From page 28 of* In the land of invented languages* by Arika Okrent:

            "[Scotsman Sir Thomas Urquhart of Cromarty] published two works on this
            language--*Ekskubalauron*, or "Gold out of Dung," in 1652; and
            *Logopandecteision;
            or, An Introduction to the Universal Language*, in 1653."

            stevo

            On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Charles W Brickner <
            tepeyachill@...> wrote:

            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
            > Behalf Of Jim Henry
            >
            > Someone who knows Greek better than I do can perhaps correct me on this,
            > but I'm pretty sure "gold out of dung" is the gloss of "Ekskybalauron", the
            > *other* book Urquhuart wrote about his conlang.
            > ============================================
            >
            > ἐκ (ἐξ) ek(s) = from out of
            >
            > το σκύβαλον (to skúbalon) = dung
            >
            > I don’t know the word “auron”. The closest word to that that I know is
            > “αὔρα” which means ‘breeze’.
            >
            > Of course, “aurum” is the Latin word for ‘gold’. The Greek word is χρῡςός
            > (chrysós).
            >
            > “Gold from dung” as a meaning of ‘ekskybalauron’ sounds like a folk
            > etymology to me.
            >
            > Charlie
            >
          • R A Brown
            ... Quite correct. αὔρα is also found used of the smoke from incense, savory aroma of fried fish and, more metaphorically, of the attractive influence of
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 6, 2013
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              On 06/01/2013 15:46, Charles W Brickner wrote:
              > -----Original Message----- From: Constructed Languages
              > List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On Behalf Of
              > Jim Henry
              >
              > Someone who knows Greek better than I do can perhaps
              > correct me on this, but I'm pretty sure "gold out of
              > dung" is the gloss of "Ekskybalauron", the *other* book
              > Urquhuart wrote about his conlang.
              > ============================================
              >
              > ἐκ (ἐξ) ek(s) = from out of
              >
              > το σκύβαλον (to skúbalon) = dung
              >
              > I don’t know the word “auron”. The closest word to that
              > that I know is “αὔρα” which means ‘breeze’.

              Quite correct. αὔρα is also found used of the smoke from
              incense, savory aroma of fried fish and, more
              metaphorically, of the attractive influence of a female, a
              change in the course of events, a bodily thrill inter_alia.

              Urquhart is best known for his translations of Rebelais.
              Isn't Ekskybalauron a bit of Rabelaisian humor? - the
              fragrant small emanating from dung.

              > Of course, “aurum” is the Latin word for ‘gold’. The
              > Greek word is χρῡςός (chrysós).
              >
              > “Gold from dung” as a meaning of ‘ekskybalauron’ sounds
              > like a folk etymology to me.

              ... and to me also. His other Greek titles are Greek, not
              Graeco-Latin mongrels.
              ==========================================================

              On 06/01/2013 15:24, Jim Henry wrote:
              [snip]
              >
              >>>> Sir Thomas Urquhart of Cromarty described
              > his language, Logopandecteision, whose name literally
              > means “gold out of dung,” as “a most exquisite jewel,
              > more precious than a diamond inchased in gold, the like
              > whereof was never seen in any age,”[snip] <<<
              >
              > Someone who knows Greek better than I do can perhaps
              > correct me on this, but I'm pretty sure "gold out of
              > dung" is the gloss of "Ekskybalauron",

              See above. Most certainly Logopandecteision does *not*
              literally mean "gold out of dung" - not, indeed, does
              Ekskybalauron unless it's a Graeco-Latin hybrid. Also it
              was Ekskybalauron that was described as "a most exquisite
              jewel, more precious than a diamond inchased in gold, the
              like whereof was never seen in any age", not Logopandecteision.

              > the *other* book Urquhuart wrote about his conlang.
              > "Logopandecteision" glosses as something more like
              > "word-all-acceptable".

              Greek πανδέκτηαι (pandéktai) [fem. pl] "all=receivers" was
              the name of a Universal Dictionary or Encyclopedia such as
              those compiled by Tiro or by Dorotheus. Also Justinian's
              law books were called by this name, which has been
              anglicized as 'the Pandects.' I'm sure Urquhart word have
              been well aware of all this.

              The logo- part is indeed, "word" or "reason, logic" etc.
              What the ending -(e)ision was intended to mean, if anything,
              is anyone's guess. There is an obscure Greek word ἴσιον
              (ision) meaning some sort of "purgative bark" - one can
              never be sure with Urquhart ;)

              > And I'm not sure he intended either of those book
              > titles, "Logopandecteision" or "Ekskybalauron", as the
              > actual name of his language,

              Nor am I. Was he even serious about a universal language, or
              was mocking the composers of contemporary 'philosophical'
              auxlangs?

              --
              Ray
              ==================================
              http://www.carolandray.plus.com
              ==================================
              There ant no place like Sussex,
              Until ye goos above,
              For Sussex will be Sussex,
              And Sussex won't be druv!
              [W. Victor Cook]
            • Jim Henry
              ... When I first read _Logopandecteision_, I thought it was purely satirical. After reading _Ekskybalauron_, I was less sure, but I still think it s more
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 6, 2013
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                On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 3:52 PM, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:
                > Nor am I. Was he even serious about a universal language, or
                > was mocking the composers of contemporary 'philosophical'
                > auxlangs?

                When I first read _Logopandecteision_, I thought it was purely
                satirical. After reading _Ekskybalauron_, I was less sure, but I
                still think it's more likely than not to have been satirical rather
                than seriously intended.

                --
                Jim Henry
                http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
                http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
              • BPJ
                On 2013-01-06 21:52, R A Brown wrote: [Urquhart] ... A somewhat quick browsing of the etext linked from
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 7, 2013
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                  On 2013-01-06 21:52, R A Brown wrote:

                  [Urquhart]
                  >
                  >> And I'm not sure he intended either of those book
                  >> titles, "Logopandecteision" or "Ekskybalauron", as the
                  >> actual name of his language,
                  >
                  > Nor am I. Was he even serious about a universal language, or
                  > was mocking the composers of contemporary 'philosophical'
                  > auxlangs?

                  A somewhat quick browsing of the etext linked from
                  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logopandecteision>
                  <http://penelope.uchicago.edu/urquhart/index.html>
                  surely makes me inclined to see a lat of intentional
                  silliness and irony, even granted that verbosity was
                  à la mode in those days. There must be something
                  behind the legend that Urquhart laughed himself to
                  death; perhaps there was a perception that he had
                  tried to kill others that way! :-)

                  /bpj
                • David Peterson
                  This is a bit of an old thread, but there s been an update, so I wanted to let everyone know. Thanks very much to Roger Mills and Jim Henry for their comments
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 18, 2013
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                    This is a bit of an old thread, but there's been an update, so I wanted to let everyone know. Thanks very much to Roger Mills and Jim Henry for their comments on Adelina Solis's Fiat Lingua article on the Esperanto speaking community. After reviewing the errata, she gave us a corrected version which you can read here:

                    http://fiatlingua.org/2013/01/

                    She did, however, leave one "typo" in: the misspelling of the word "international" in the title Internacional Hospitality Service. She did this because that's how it's actually spelled on the page here:

                    http://www.tejo.org/en/ps_lingv_en

                    It's likely still a typo on the part of the site author(s), but since it remains, she felt it was best to leave it as is.

                    Thanks again for the feedback!

                    David Peterson
                    LCS President
                    president@...
                    www.conlang.org

                    On Jan 4, 2013, at 7:29 PM, Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:

                    > (Errata dept.)
                    > David-- It could take a while, as I'm leaving on Sunday for 3 weeks in Florida (by no means a vacation, strictly a duty.....). Maybe someone else will have spotted them in the meantime.
                    > R.
                    >
                    > --- On Fri, 1/4/13, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:
                    > Yes, that would be very helpful. Thanks!
                    > =======================================
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