Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Fiat Lingua Article on Esperanto Speakers

Expand Messages
  • MorphemeAddict
    Cool. Thanks. stevo
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 3, 2013
      Cool. Thanks.

      stevo

      On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 5:43 PM, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:

      > A couple days late, but this month's Fiat Lingua is an undergraduate
      > thesis on the status of the Esperanto speaking community (and I believe a
      > couple of Esperanto speakers on the Conlang-L were interviewed for it). You
      > can read the article here:
      >
      > http://fiatlingua.org/2013/01/
      >
      > David Peterson
      > LCS President
      > president@...
      > www.conlang.org
      >
    • Roger Mills
      Very interesting, makes me almost wish I d learnt it back when I had the book (high-school days).  As usual, my clerk s mentality spotted several typos and
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 4, 2013
        Very interesting, makes me almost wish I'd learnt it back when I had the book (high-school days).  As usual, my clerk's mentality spotted several typos and other infelicities.....Worst of all, she misspelled Ithkuil as "Ithkull".

        --- On Thu, 1/3/13, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:

        From: David Peterson <dedalvs@...>
        Subject: Fiat Lingua Article on Esperanto Speakers
        To: CONLANG@...
        Date: Thursday, January 3, 2013, 5:43 PM

        A couple days late, but this month's Fiat Lingua is an undergraduate thesis on the status of the Esperanto speaking community (and I believe a couple of Esperanto speakers on the Conlang-L were interviewed for it). You can read the article here:

        http://fiatlingua.org/2013/01/

        David Peterson
        LCS President
        president@...
        www.conlang.org
      • David Peterson
        The nice thing about this being an archive and not a journal is that those can be fixed. :) (Oh, that reminds me: There s a typo in yours.) David Peterson LCS
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 4, 2013
          The nice thing about this being an archive and not a journal is that those can be fixed. :) (Oh, that reminds me: There's a typo in yours.)

          David Peterson
          LCS President
          president@...
          www.conlang.org

          On Jan 4, 2013, at 6:43 AM, Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:

          > Very interesting, makes me almost wish I'd learnt it back when I had the book (high-school days). As usual, my clerk's mentality spotted several typos and other infelicities.....Worst of all, she misspelled Ithkuil as "Ithkull".
          >
          > --- On Thu, 1/3/13, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: David Peterson <dedalvs@...>
          > Subject: Fiat Lingua Article on Esperanto Speakers
          > To: CONLANG@...
          > Date: Thursday, January 3, 2013, 5:43 PM
          >
          > A couple days late, but this month's Fiat Lingua is an undergraduate thesis on the status of the Esperanto speaking community (and I believe a couple of Esperanto speakers on the Conlang-L were interviewed for it). You can read the article here:
          >
          > http://fiatlingua.org/2013/01/
          >
          > David Peterson
          > LCS President
          > president@...
          > www.conlang.org
        • MorphemeAddict
          ... Equally bad, I think, is misspelling Riismo as Rilsmo and Lingwa de Planeta as Lingua de Planeta . stevo
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 4, 2013
            On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 9:43 AM, Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:

            > Very interesting, makes me almost wish I'd learnt it back when I had the
            > book (high-school days). As usual, my clerk's mentality spotted several
            > typos and other infelicities.....Worst of all, she misspelled Ithkuil as
            > "Ithkull".
            >

            Equally bad, I think, is misspelling "Riismo" as "Rilsmo" and "Lingwa de
            Planeta" as "Lingua de Planeta".

            stevo

            >
            > --- On Thu, 1/3/13, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: David Peterson <dedalvs@...>
            > Subject: Fiat Lingua Article on Esperanto Speakers
            > To: CONLANG@...
            > Date: Thursday, January 3, 2013, 5:43 PM
            >
            > A couple days late, but this month's Fiat Lingua is an undergraduate
            > thesis on the status of the Esperanto speaking community (and I believe a
            > couple of Esperanto speakers on the Conlang-L were interviewed for it). You
            > can read the article here:
            >
            > http://fiatlingua.org/2013/01/
            >
            > David Peterson
            > LCS President
            > president@...
            > www.conlang.org
            >
          • MorphemeAddict
            I ve been listening to the pdf, so I haven t seen any typos until Ithkull was pointed out. Now I may have to go back and read it. stevo
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 4, 2013
              I've been listening to the pdf, so I haven't seen any typos until "Ithkull"
              was pointed out. Now I may have to go back and read it.

              stevo

              On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 2:14 PM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 9:43 AM, Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:
              >
              >> Very interesting, makes me almost wish I'd learnt it back when I had the
              >> book (high-school days). As usual, my clerk's mentality spotted several
              >> typos and other infelicities.....Worst of all, she misspelled Ithkuil as
              >> "Ithkull".
              >>
              >
              > Equally bad, I think, is misspelling "Riismo" as "Rilsmo" and "Lingwa de
              > Planeta" as "Lingua de Planeta".
              >
              > stevo
              >
              >>
              >> --- On Thu, 1/3/13, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> From: David Peterson <dedalvs@...>
              >> Subject: Fiat Lingua Article on Esperanto Speakers
              >> To: CONLANG@...
              >> Date: Thursday, January 3, 2013, 5:43 PM
              >>
              >> A couple days late, but this month's Fiat Lingua is an undergraduate
              >> thesis on the status of the Esperanto speaking community (and I believe a
              >> couple of Esperanto speakers on the Conlang-L were interviewed for it). You
              >> can read the article here:
              >>
              >> http://fiatlingua.org/2013/01/
              >>
              >> David Peterson
              >> LCS President
              >> president@...
              >> www.conlang.org
              >>
              >
              >
            • MorphemeAddict
              ... stevo
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 4, 2013
                On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 2:13 PM, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:

                > The nice thing about this being an archive and not a journal is that those
                > can be fixed. :) (Oh, that reminds me: There's a typo in yours.)
                >
                > Hunh? Where? What?

                stevo


                > David Peterson
                > LCS President
                > president@...
                > www.conlang.org
                >
                > On Jan 4, 2013, at 6:43 AM, Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Very interesting, makes me almost wish I'd learnt it back when I had the
                > book (high-school days). As usual, my clerk's mentality spotted several
                > typos and other infelicities.....Worst of all, she misspelled Ithkuil as
                > "Ithkull".
                > >
                > > --- On Thu, 1/3/13, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > From: David Peterson <dedalvs@...>
                > > Subject: Fiat Lingua Article on Esperanto Speakers
                > > To: CONLANG@...
                > > Date: Thursday, January 3, 2013, 5:43 PM
                > >
                > > A couple days late, but this month's Fiat Lingua is an undergraduate
                > thesis on the status of the Esperanto speaking community (and I believe a
                > couple of Esperanto speakers on the Conlang-L were interviewed for it). You
                > can read the article here:
                > >
                > > http://fiatlingua.org/2013/01/
                > >
                > > David Peterson
                > > LCS President
                > > president@...
                > > www.conlang.org
                >
              • David Peterson
                Huh. Can t find the one I was looking for, but found this one: ...so I knew there would have to be lots of pairs like /li/ (high tone) with some respectable
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 4, 2013
                  Huh. Can't find the one I was looking for, but found this one:

                  "...so I knew there would have to be lots of pairs like /li/ (high tone) with some respectable meaning, versus perhaps /li/ (low-rising) that might mean ‘wicked’ or ‘stupid’ or ‘smell of a unwashed crotch’ etc.—this promised to be great fun."

                  Should be "an unwashed crotch".

                  David Peterson
                  LCS President
                  president@...
                  www.conlang.org

                  On Jan 4, 2013, at 11:16 AM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@...> wrote:

                  > On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 2:13 PM, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >> The nice thing about this being an archive and not a journal is that those
                  >> can be fixed. :) (Oh, that reminds me: There's a typo in yours.)
                  >>
                  >> Hunh? Where? What?
                  >
                  > stevo
                  >
                  >
                  >> David Peterson
                  >> LCS President
                  >> president@...
                  >> www.conlang.org
                  >>
                  >> On Jan 4, 2013, at 6:43 AM, Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >>> Very interesting, makes me almost wish I'd learnt it back when I had the
                  >> book (high-school days). As usual, my clerk's mentality spotted several
                  >> typos and other infelicities.....Worst of all, she misspelled Ithkuil as
                  >> "Ithkull".
                  >>>
                  >>> --- On Thu, 1/3/13, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:
                  >>>
                  >>> From: David Peterson <dedalvs@...>
                  >>> Subject: Fiat Lingua Article on Esperanto Speakers
                  >>> To: CONLANG@...
                  >>> Date: Thursday, January 3, 2013, 5:43 PM
                  >>>
                  >>> A couple days late, but this month's Fiat Lingua is an undergraduate
                  >> thesis on the status of the Esperanto speaking community (and I believe a
                  >> couple of Esperanto speakers on the Conlang-L were interviewed for it). You
                  >> can read the article here:
                  >>>
                  >>> http://fiatlingua.org/2013/01/
                  >>>
                  >>> David Peterson
                  >>> LCS President
                  >>> president@...
                  >>> www.conlang.org
                  >>
                • Roger Mills
                  ... Huh. Can t find the one I was looking for, but found this one: ...so I knew there would have to be lots of pairs like /li/ (high tone) with some
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 4, 2013
                    --- On Fri, 1/4/13, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:
                    Huh. Can't find the one I was looking for, but found this one:

                    "...so I knew there would have to be lots of pairs like /li/ (high tone) with some respectable meaning, versus perhaps /li/ (low-rising) that might mean ‘wicked’ or ‘stupid’ or ‘smell of a unwashed crotch’ etc.—this promised to be great fun."

                    Should be "an unwashed crotch".
                    ============================

                    Oh that's just my up to the minute revision of English grammer that seems to be so popular nowadays ;-))) but I'll correct it in my version.

                    Do you want a list of the errors in the E-o article?
                  • David Peterson
                    Yes, that would be very helpful. Thanks! David Peterson LCS President president@conlang.org www.conlang.org
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 4, 2013
                      Yes, that would be very helpful. Thanks!

                      David Peterson
                      LCS President
                      president@...
                      www.conlang.org

                      On Jan 4, 2013, at 3:31 PM, Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:

                      > --- On Fri, 1/4/13, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:
                      > Huh. Can't find the one I was looking for, but found this one:
                      >
                      > "...so I knew there would have to be lots of pairs like /li/ (high tone) with some respectable meaning, versus perhaps /li/ (low-rising) that might mean ‘wicked’ or ‘stupid’ or ‘smell of a unwashed crotch’ etc.—this promised to be great fun."
                      >
                      > Should be "an unwashed crotch".
                      > ============================
                      >
                      > Oh that's just my up to the minute revision of English grammer that seems to be so popular nowadays ;-))) but I'll correct it in my version.
                      >
                      > Do you want a list of the errors in the E-o article?
                    • Roger Mills
                      (Errata dept.) David-- It could take a while, as I m leaving on Sunday for 3 weeks in Florida (by no means a vacation, strictly a duty.....). Maybe someone
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 4, 2013
                        (Errata dept.)
                        David-- It could take a while, as I'm leaving on Sunday for 3 weeks in Florida (by no means a vacation, strictly a duty.....). Maybe someone else will have spotted them in the meantime.
                        R.

                        --- On Fri, 1/4/13, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:
                        Yes, that would be very helpful. Thanks!
                        =======================================
                      • Jim Henry
                        ... his language, Logopandecteision, whose name literally means “gold out of dung,” as “a most exquisite jewel, more precious than a diamond inchased in
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 6, 2013
                          On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 5:43 PM, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:
                          > A couple days late, but this month's Fiat Lingua is an undergraduate thesis on the status of the Esperanto speaking community (and I believe a couple of

                          >>>Sir Thomas Urquhart of Cromarty described
                          his language, Logopandecteision, whose name literally means “gold out
                          of dung,” as
                          “a most exquisite jewel, more precious than a diamond inchased in gold, the like
                          whereof was never seen in any age,” but he had more praise for what his language
                          was allegedly capable of than details about how exactly it would do it
                          (Okrent 2009:
                          27-28).
                          <<<

                          Someone who knows Greek better than I do can perhaps correct me on
                          this, but I'm pretty sure "gold out of dung" is the gloss of
                          "Ekskybalauron", the *other* book Urquhuart wrote about his conlang.
                          "Logopandecteision" glosses as something more like
                          "word-all-acceptable". And I'm not sure he intended either of those
                          book titles, "Logopandecteision" or "Ekskybalauron", as the actual
                          name of his language, any more than "Dr. Esperanto" originally
                          intended "Esperanto" to be the name of his "Internacia Lingvo".

                          Ms. Solis's comment on the language in the last clause of her sentence
                          there is spot-on, however.

                          I don't have Arika Okrent's book handy so I"m not sure if Solis is
                          simply repeating an error on Okrent's part about the name of
                          Urquhart's language, or if she's misunderstood Okrent.

                          I'll send some more nitpicky comments offlist.

                          --
                          Jim Henry
                          http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
                          http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
                        • Charles W Brickner
                          ... From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU] On Behalf Of Jim Henry Someone who knows Greek better than I do can perhaps correct me
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 6, 2013
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On Behalf Of Jim Henry

                            Someone who knows Greek better than I do can perhaps correct me on this, but I'm pretty sure "gold out of dung" is the gloss of "Ekskybalauron", the *other* book Urquhuart wrote about his conlang.
                            ============================================

                            ἐκ (ἐξ) ek(s) = from out of

                            το σκύβαλον (to skúbalon) = dung

                            I don’t know the word “auron”. The closest word to that that I know is “αὔρα” which means ‘breeze’.

                            Of course, “aurum” is the Latin word for ‘gold’. The Greek word is χρῡςός (chrysós).

                            “Gold from dung” as a meaning of ‘ekskybalauron’ sounds like a folk etymology to me.

                            Charlie
                          • MorphemeAddict
                            From page 28 of* In the land of invented languages* by Arika Okrent: [Scotsman Sir Thomas Urquhart of Cromarty] published two works on this
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 6, 2013
                              From page 28 of* In the land of invented languages* by Arika Okrent:

                              "[Scotsman Sir Thomas Urquhart of Cromarty] published two works on this
                              language--*Ekskubalauron*, or "Gold out of Dung," in 1652; and
                              *Logopandecteision;
                              or, An Introduction to the Universal Language*, in 1653."

                              stevo

                              On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Charles W Brickner <
                              tepeyachill@...> wrote:

                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On
                              > Behalf Of Jim Henry
                              >
                              > Someone who knows Greek better than I do can perhaps correct me on this,
                              > but I'm pretty sure "gold out of dung" is the gloss of "Ekskybalauron", the
                              > *other* book Urquhuart wrote about his conlang.
                              > ============================================
                              >
                              > ἐκ (ἐξ) ek(s) = from out of
                              >
                              > το σκύβαλον (to skúbalon) = dung
                              >
                              > I don’t know the word “auron”. The closest word to that that I know is
                              > “αὔρα” which means ‘breeze’.
                              >
                              > Of course, “aurum” is the Latin word for ‘gold’. The Greek word is χρῡςός
                              > (chrysós).
                              >
                              > “Gold from dung” as a meaning of ‘ekskybalauron’ sounds like a folk
                              > etymology to me.
                              >
                              > Charlie
                              >
                            • R A Brown
                              ... Quite correct. αὔρα is also found used of the smoke from incense, savory aroma of fried fish and, more metaphorically, of the attractive influence of
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jan 6, 2013
                                On 06/01/2013 15:46, Charles W Brickner wrote:
                                > -----Original Message----- From: Constructed Languages
                                > List [mailto:CONLANG@...] On Behalf Of
                                > Jim Henry
                                >
                                > Someone who knows Greek better than I do can perhaps
                                > correct me on this, but I'm pretty sure "gold out of
                                > dung" is the gloss of "Ekskybalauron", the *other* book
                                > Urquhuart wrote about his conlang.
                                > ============================================
                                >
                                > ἐκ (ἐξ) ek(s) = from out of
                                >
                                > το σκύβαλον (to skúbalon) = dung
                                >
                                > I don’t know the word “auron”. The closest word to that
                                > that I know is “αὔρα” which means ‘breeze’.

                                Quite correct. αὔρα is also found used of the smoke from
                                incense, savory aroma of fried fish and, more
                                metaphorically, of the attractive influence of a female, a
                                change in the course of events, a bodily thrill inter_alia.

                                Urquhart is best known for his translations of Rebelais.
                                Isn't Ekskybalauron a bit of Rabelaisian humor? - the
                                fragrant small emanating from dung.

                                > Of course, “aurum” is the Latin word for ‘gold’. The
                                > Greek word is χρῡςός (chrysós).
                                >
                                > “Gold from dung” as a meaning of ‘ekskybalauron’ sounds
                                > like a folk etymology to me.

                                ... and to me also. His other Greek titles are Greek, not
                                Graeco-Latin mongrels.
                                ==========================================================

                                On 06/01/2013 15:24, Jim Henry wrote:
                                [snip]
                                >
                                >>>> Sir Thomas Urquhart of Cromarty described
                                > his language, Logopandecteision, whose name literally
                                > means “gold out of dung,” as “a most exquisite jewel,
                                > more precious than a diamond inchased in gold, the like
                                > whereof was never seen in any age,”[snip] <<<
                                >
                                > Someone who knows Greek better than I do can perhaps
                                > correct me on this, but I'm pretty sure "gold out of
                                > dung" is the gloss of "Ekskybalauron",

                                See above. Most certainly Logopandecteision does *not*
                                literally mean "gold out of dung" - not, indeed, does
                                Ekskybalauron unless it's a Graeco-Latin hybrid. Also it
                                was Ekskybalauron that was described as "a most exquisite
                                jewel, more precious than a diamond inchased in gold, the
                                like whereof was never seen in any age", not Logopandecteision.

                                > the *other* book Urquhuart wrote about his conlang.
                                > "Logopandecteision" glosses as something more like
                                > "word-all-acceptable".

                                Greek πανδέκτηαι (pandéktai) [fem. pl] "all=receivers" was
                                the name of a Universal Dictionary or Encyclopedia such as
                                those compiled by Tiro or by Dorotheus. Also Justinian's
                                law books were called by this name, which has been
                                anglicized as 'the Pandects.' I'm sure Urquhart word have
                                been well aware of all this.

                                The logo- part is indeed, "word" or "reason, logic" etc.
                                What the ending -(e)ision was intended to mean, if anything,
                                is anyone's guess. There is an obscure Greek word ἴσιον
                                (ision) meaning some sort of "purgative bark" - one can
                                never be sure with Urquhart ;)

                                > And I'm not sure he intended either of those book
                                > titles, "Logopandecteision" or "Ekskybalauron", as the
                                > actual name of his language,

                                Nor am I. Was he even serious about a universal language, or
                                was mocking the composers of contemporary 'philosophical'
                                auxlangs?

                                --
                                Ray
                                ==================================
                                http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                                ==================================
                                There ant no place like Sussex,
                                Until ye goos above,
                                For Sussex will be Sussex,
                                And Sussex won't be druv!
                                [W. Victor Cook]
                              • Jim Henry
                                ... When I first read _Logopandecteision_, I thought it was purely satirical. After reading _Ekskybalauron_, I was less sure, but I still think it s more
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jan 6, 2013
                                  On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 3:52 PM, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:
                                  > Nor am I. Was he even serious about a universal language, or
                                  > was mocking the composers of contemporary 'philosophical'
                                  > auxlangs?

                                  When I first read _Logopandecteision_, I thought it was purely
                                  satirical. After reading _Ekskybalauron_, I was less sure, but I
                                  still think it's more likely than not to have been satirical rather
                                  than seriously intended.

                                  --
                                  Jim Henry
                                  http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
                                  http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
                                • BPJ
                                  On 2013-01-06 21:52, R A Brown wrote: [Urquhart] ... A somewhat quick browsing of the etext linked from
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jan 7, 2013
                                    On 2013-01-06 21:52, R A Brown wrote:

                                    [Urquhart]
                                    >
                                    >> And I'm not sure he intended either of those book
                                    >> titles, "Logopandecteision" or "Ekskybalauron", as the
                                    >> actual name of his language,
                                    >
                                    > Nor am I. Was he even serious about a universal language, or
                                    > was mocking the composers of contemporary 'philosophical'
                                    > auxlangs?

                                    A somewhat quick browsing of the etext linked from
                                    <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logopandecteision>
                                    <http://penelope.uchicago.edu/urquhart/index.html>
                                    surely makes me inclined to see a lat of intentional
                                    silliness and irony, even granted that verbosity was
                                    à la mode in those days. There must be something
                                    behind the legend that Urquhart laughed himself to
                                    death; perhaps there was a perception that he had
                                    tried to kill others that way! :-)

                                    /bpj
                                  • David Peterson
                                    This is a bit of an old thread, but there s been an update, so I wanted to let everyone know. Thanks very much to Roger Mills and Jim Henry for their comments
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jan 18, 2013
                                      This is a bit of an old thread, but there's been an update, so I wanted to let everyone know. Thanks very much to Roger Mills and Jim Henry for their comments on Adelina Solis's Fiat Lingua article on the Esperanto speaking community. After reviewing the errata, she gave us a corrected version which you can read here:

                                      http://fiatlingua.org/2013/01/

                                      She did, however, leave one "typo" in: the misspelling of the word "international" in the title Internacional Hospitality Service. She did this because that's how it's actually spelled on the page here:

                                      http://www.tejo.org/en/ps_lingv_en

                                      It's likely still a typo on the part of the site author(s), but since it remains, she felt it was best to leave it as is.

                                      Thanks again for the feedback!

                                      David Peterson
                                      LCS President
                                      president@...
                                      www.conlang.org

                                      On Jan 4, 2013, at 7:29 PM, Roger Mills <romiltz@...> wrote:

                                      > (Errata dept.)
                                      > David-- It could take a while, as I'm leaving on Sunday for 3 weeks in Florida (by no means a vacation, strictly a duty.....). Maybe someone else will have spotted them in the meantime.
                                      > R.
                                      >
                                      > --- On Fri, 1/4/13, David Peterson <dedalvs@...> wrote:
                                      > Yes, that would be very helpful. Thanks!
                                      > =======================================
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.